# Car Forums > Automotive Aesthetics / Electronics > Wheel and Tire Discussion >  Why did this wheel fail?

## bjstare

Alright, since this is (ostensibly, at least) a car forum, I've got an actual car question.

The wheel failed/fell off my MIL's car today. It seems the center section just sheared itself away from the rest of the wheel. Anyone know what would cause this? I can't think of a reason, aside from improperly torqued lugs - but that seems like quite a stretch.

Pic for reference:

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## ExtraSlow

@tirebob
 do you have any thoughts? My only thought is its NOT improper lug torque. Possibly manufacturing defect in the wheel? Although steel wheels should be reasonably strong. They don't look rusted or anything that indicates they be weakened either.

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## Tik-Tok

Chinesium alloy steel.

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## littledan

Too much NOS. She's just lucky she didn't blow the welds on her intake manifold.

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## lilmira

vtec kicked in? Haven't seen that before. I don't think it's from under/over torquing.

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## tirebob

> @tirebob
>  do you have any thoughts? My only thought is its NOT improper lug torque. Possibly manufacturing defect in the wheel? Although steel wheels should be reasonably strong. They don't look rusted or anything that indicates they be weakened either.



Now I have seen a lot of shit in my day, but never have I seen a steel wheel with the centre broken out like that so perfectly! That is a head scratcher for sure. I mean steel bends... Sure you can break it but I think if that wheel was hit from the side or anything to the degree that would be needed to break the rim, there would be some kind of extra obvious damage. Over or under torquing I cannot see causing that either. I mean if the rim was loose and banging around it could cause some damage to be sure, but it would have been obvious and just seeing the centre still attached to the hub leads me to believe that is virtually impossible to have happened.

My instinct says some kind of defect but as to what I can't say for sure... That is crazy!

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## SJW

Bad welds. Chinese wheel. Corrosion/bad welds.

Need better pics.

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## DonJuan

I can see aluminum breaking. But steel wheels? That's crazy.

How cold was it? and to make it break in a circle.

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## vengie

Shitty welds, too much curbage and dukes of hazzard

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## lilmira

black wheels matter

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## bjstare

It happened today, so not that cold. The wheel broke very shortly after she got off Stoney trail, thankfully it didnt happen at speed. 

Glad to know Im not the only one stumped by this.

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## Thaco

definitely shitty welds, maybe combined with some curbing... 

Nothing to do with lug torque

Only other possibility might be the wrong wheels and it was dragging on the caliper scoring the inside of the wheel creating a weak spot.

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## ercchry

I would think that whole face would be stamped, no welds?

Would appear to be defective, bad tolerances on the die or build up of materials, over working the material 

Or a combo of that + over torque, hard to tell from the photo but looks like it aligns well enough with the edge of the brake rotor, that could have been enough force to tip it over the limit if the torque was high enough to disfigure the face of the wheel 

We’re they hub centric? If not the vibrations could have also tipped it over the edge

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## Flexray

The center of the wheel is one piece that is welded to the barrel of the wheel, there is no welds on the front part of the wheel. 

My vote is something got caught in between the brake caliper and wheel, and cut the wheel apart. When Chevy/GMC trucks went from rear drum brakes to disk brakes, rocks would get caught in between the caliper and wheel and slowly cut the barrel of the rim until it blows apart. I have seen brake pad shims slip out and cut brake rotors off of the hub.
You don't see that every day.

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## bjstare

Debris or something caught between wheel and scoring it seems like a potential scenario. She didn't mention any sounds though.

I believe they are hub centric. Zero chance they are the wrong wheels and dragged on the caliper (the failure area isn't close enough to the caliper, caliper isn't scratched). There were no vibrations either (I drove the car within the last week) and she's pretty cognizant re: new sounds and stuff like that coming up, she's not a typical clueless old lady.

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## ThePenIsMightier

> The center of the wheel is one piece that is welded to the barrel of the wheel, there is no welds on the front part of the wheel. 
> 
> My vote is something got caught in between the brake caliper and wheel, and cut the wheel apart. When Chevy/GMC trucks went from rear drum brakes to disk brakes, rocks would get caught in between the caliper and wheel and slowly cut the barrel of the rim until it blows apart. I have seen brake pad shims slip out and cut brake rotors off of the hub.
> You don't see that every day.



I suspect that the bolt circle & flange piece are certainly welded on (exactly where it failed) so that China can keep making China things in China ways.

"Heat Affected Zone" causes ductile-to-brittle metal behaviour.

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## Buster

conversion to center lock wheel.

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## TomcoPDR



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## Flexray

> Debris or something caught between wheel and scoring it seems like a potential scenario. She didn't mention any sounds though.
> 
> I believe they are hub centric. Zero chance they are the wrong wheels and dragged on the caliper (the failure area isn't close enough to the caliper, caliper isn't scratched). There were no vibrations either (I drove the car within the last week) and she's pretty cognizant re: new sounds and stuff like that coming up, she's not a typical clueless old lady.



Every now and then I will pull a wheel off of a car, the noise damper shim on the outboard brake pad has slipped out and cut a few mm slice into the hat of the rotor. The owner was not complaining about a noise, most of the time I have driven the vehicle and heard nothing. Same thing with stuff rubbing on drivshafts, sometimes they don't make any noise. 

I don't know if I have ever seen a bolt circle welded into the face of a wheel, not saying they don't exist but I don't think I have ever seen it.

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## jutes

Damn. How old are those wheels?

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## ThePenIsMightier

> ... 
> 
> I don't know if I have ever seen a bolt circle welded into the face of a wheel, not saying they don't exist but I don't think I have ever seen it.



I haven't either. I was just thinking that might be attractive from a manufacturing perspective (on cheap, shit wheels).

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## richardchan2002

Brake rotor looks like it has some heat marks. Were the pads dragging? If so, the heat might have played a factor in the failure?

Have you checked the other 3 wheels?

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## Thaco

https://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl101.htm

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## Flexray

> https://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl101.htm



That's cool, I have never seen a steel wheel fail like this.

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## ThePenIsMightier

Make sure to give him +Rep. His life revolves around it.

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## arcticcat522

Pic of MIL? For science...

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## haggis88

Anyone ever read up on the Sioux City airplane crash...defect the size of a grain of sand killed over 200 people

Metal fails under stress if there's a defect, freak accident imho

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## tirebob

> Bad welds. Chinese wheel. Corrosion/bad welds.
> 
> Need better pics.






> definitely shitty welds, maybe combined with some curbing... 
> 
> Nothing to do with lug torque
> 
> Only other possibility might be the wrong wheels and it was dragging on the caliper scoring the inside of the wheel creating a weak spot.



Steel wheels are full stamped centres/faces and welded to the barrel. The is no welds on the centre so it is not that for sure.

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## BerserkerCatSplat

Yeah that area is stamped. This has to be a metallurgical failure of some kind, so crazy!

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## mr2mike

I'd pull the others see if it's happening to others. Unlikely but who knows.

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## mr2mike

Dbl post

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## killramos

> I'd pull the others see if it's happening to others. Unlikely but who knows.



Yea and replace with alloys.

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## Kloubek

That is crazy. Glad she is ok.

I've never seen anything like that before.

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## JordanEG6

> https://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl101.htm



Whoa. That's crazy. 

Glad she was okay. How old are those steelies? According to the above article, if my reading comprehension is right this morning, this happens when they are very old/used and/or if they've been beat to hell due to 'spirited driving'.

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## mr2mike

Or made from Chinesium.

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## DonJuan

> Whoa. That's crazy. 
> 
> Glad she was okay. How old are those steelies? According to the above article, if my reading comprehension is right this morning, this happens when they are very old/used and/or if they've been beat to hell due to 'spirited driving'.



Is there any other way to drive a Ford Edge other than spiritedly? So you can get out of it ASAP without anyone seeing you.
 :Big Grin:

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## ThePenIsMightier

I always love the "spirited driving" or "hard acceleration" parts in these stories as if that puts even a fraction of the stress into a wheel compared to ____________. You know, that other thing everyone does?

Maybe braking? 0-100 times don't matter to Buster or to stress. But 100-0 times sure matter to stress.




> Is there any other way to drive a Ford Edge other than spiritedly? So you can get out of it ASAP without anyone seeing you.



That's a good one! LoL!

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## mr2mike

Should have gotten a Ridgeline.

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## ercchry

> I always love the "spirited driving" or "hard acceleration" parts in these stories as if that puts even a fraction of the stress into a wheel compared to ____________. You know, that other thing everyone does?
> 
> Maybe braking? 0-100 times don't matter to Buster or to stress. But 100-0 times sure matter to stress.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good one! LoL!



Oh, I thought you were going to go with “hitting curbs/potholes at 80km/h”

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## riander5

Has anyone here suggested a bad weld job yet

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## ThePenIsMightier

> Has anyone here suggested a bad weld job yet



No.
Consensus is that it's a bad rim job.

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## prae

> Has anyone here suggested a bad weld job yet



are you trolling?  :ROFL!:

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## firebane

> Has anyone here suggested a bad weld job yet



Probably best to read the thread  :facepalm: 

Or better yet explain to us how its welded there?

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## bjstare

I'll certainly be checking the welds when I see it in person this weekend.

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## firebane

> I'll certainly be checking the welds when I see it in person this weekend.



There are no welds in that area. The only area that is welded is where the center is to the barrel.

IF for some stupid reason there are welds there then those rims are really fucking dumb and dangerous.

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## 88CRX

Its the welds.

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## BavarianBeast

Too much torque on the launch

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## Flexray

> I'll certainly be checking the welds when I see it in person this weekend.



The tire wear is going to tell you a lot. If something didn't cut the wheel apart, it would make sense that horizontal loading of the wheel caused the metal to work harden and tear. If toe is out of spec, it is going to push the wheel/tire down the road at an angle putting more load on the face of the rim. This will cause a saw tooth wear pattern on the tire.
From the picture, I see that these wheels are not hub centric. That means that the wheel is going to be centered on the hub by the studs and nuts. Sometimes when you bolt on steel wheels, the taper on the nuts don't engage the taper in the wheel and it takes some finagling to get it to seat properly. Look closely at how the nuts are seated in the broken off part of the wheel on the vehicle. This will cause the wheel to be off-center on the hub. It will put diagonal wear blocks across the tread, just like a worn out shock. 

I'm really curious on what caused this. I have seen alloy wheels break out the center from a impact, but steel wheels just bend like a mf.

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## bjstare

> The tire wear is going to tell you a lot. If something didn't cut the wheel apart, it would make sense that horizontal loading of the wheel caused the metal to work harden and tear. If toe is out of spec, it is going to push the wheel/tire down the road at an angle putting more load on the face of the rim. This will cause a saw tooth wear pattern on the tire.
> From the picture, I see that these wheels are not hub centric. That means that the wheel is going to be centered on the hub by the studs and nuts. Sometimes when you bolt on steel wheels, the taper on the nuts don't engage the taper in the wheel and it takes some finagling to get it to seat properly. Look closely at how the nuts are seated in the broken off part of the wheel on the vehicle. This will cause the wheel to be off-center on the hub. It will put diagonal wear blocks across the tread, just like a worn out shock. 
> 
> I'm really curious on what caused this. I have seen alloy wheels break out the center from a impact, but steel wheels just bend like a mf.



That all makes sense - but wouldn't that result in some type of shimmy through the steering wheel (or a pull to one side if toe was that far off)? It previously had neither of those symptoms.

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## Thaco

> The tire wear is going to tell you a lot. If something didn't cut the wheel apart, it would make sense that horizontal loading of the wheel caused the metal to work harden and tear. If toe is out of spec, it is going to push the wheel/tire down the road at an angle putting more load on the face of the rim. This will cause a saw tooth wear pattern on the tire.
> From the picture, I see that these wheels are not hub centric. That means that the wheel is going to be centered on the hub by the studs and nuts. Sometimes when you bolt on steel wheels, the taper on the nuts don't engage the taper in the wheel and it takes some finagling to get it to seat properly. Look closely at how the nuts are seated in the broken off part of the wheel on the vehicle. This will cause the wheel to be off-center on the hub. It will put diagonal wear blocks across the tread, just like a worn out shock. 
> 
> I'm really curious on what caused this. I have seen alloy wheels break out the center from a impact, but steel wheels just bend like a mf.



typically if the lugs arent seated properly they'll back off and oval out the holes and break studs or the studs will rip through, i've seen it plenty of times (also caused by over torqueing cheap wheels which crushes the seat), i cant imagine this clean break far from the studs is due to improper wheel installation.

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## Flexray

> That all makes sense - but wouldn't that result in some type of shimmy through the steering wheel (or a pull to one side if toe was that far off)? It previously had neither of those symptoms.



Most of the time you will get a vibration with the nuts not seated properly. When toe is out far enough to cause wear, the vehicle will be really squirrely, it will be all over the road. 
It's some things to look out for.



> typically if the lugs arent seated properly they'll back off and oval out the holes and break studs or the studs will rip through, i've seen it plenty of times (also caused by over torqueing cheap wheels which crushes the seat), i cant imagine this clean break far from the studs is due to improper wheel installation.



I will get a few every year that are tight but not seated. The amount of vehicles I have repaired with loose or fallen off wheels is probably in the hundreds.

Edit, I'm not saying the nuts are loose. The nuts may be torque onto the edge of the wheel taper and not into the taper it's self.

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## riander5

> Probably best to read the thread 
> 
> Or better yet explain to us how its welded there?



This response gave me so much satisfaction

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## ianmcc

> No.
> Consensus is that it's a bad rim job.



Consensus is there are no bad rim jobs.

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## ThePenIsMightier

> Consensus is there are no bad rim jobs.



If you are still at work, fire up the Google machine and look up Rusty Trombone.
You might be wrong.

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## mr2mike

OP did a rim job trying to end his MIL.

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## ianmcc

> If you are still at work, fire up the Google machine and look up Rusty Trombone.
> You might be wrong.



That's advanced art room stuff right there.

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## ThePenIsMightier

> That's advanced art room stuff right there.



Yes. That's perhaps more Art Foyer or perhaps even Art Parlour activity.

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## Ukyo8



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