# Lounge > Real Estate / Finance >  Tesla Motors

## themack89

I'm wondering here if anyone has been following Tesla's stock?



What I see is $18 billion of market cap after they sold 5,000 cars for the quarter. Even at $70,000 a car, that is 51x quarterly revenues and/or trading at >665 times earnings (I don't know how to calculate when its negative, but it was -0.23).

That is a fuck ton of future value the market is pricing in. For perspective, Ford is valued at about $67bil, meaning Tesla is valued at 27% times that of Ford. Yes, Tesla is expanding into Asia and they figure thats where most of their sales will come from. Ford sold ~850,000 units last quarter in North America alone.

I am honestly in awe. Don't get me wrong, I think Elon Musk is a hero and he will continue to revolutionize the world more than he already has--I also think their product is great. But this is insane I think. 

Here's the link if anyone wants to take a look (its an xls file):

http://www.shareholder.com/visitors/...8X0&id=9446869

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## supe

I follow it very very closely. I love everything there is to do with Tesla motors as well as the stock price. I am 99% sure that I will buy the Model X and I can't wait to see the Gen3 rip apart the auto industry. 

I understand that based on stock price fundamentals this stock may not make sense hence the impalement of all the Tesla shorts however, this stock is future looking. Tesla with its first mass market vehicle built the best car ever made, there is no reason to believe that the Model X and the gen 3 will not be just as successful. 

Elon's long term strategy has pretty much met every target to a tee, I don't see why the Gen 3 won't follow suit.

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## Redlyne_mr2

I think the only way for Tesla to do well in the long run is for someone to buy them out. With the mainstream manufacturers making huge strides in alternative energy cars I have a feeling Tesla will get left behind.

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## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * Tesla with its first mass market vehicle built the best car ever made*



A fairly subjective statement.

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## BigMass

> _Originally posted by themack89_ 
> *I'm wondering here if anyone has been following Tesla's stock?
> 
> What I see is $18 billion of market cap after they sold 5,000 cars for the quarter. Even at $70,000 a car, that is 51x quarterly revenues and/or trading at &gt;665 times earnings (I don't know how to calculate when its negative, but it was -0.23).
> 
> That is a fuck ton of future value the market is pricing in. For perspective, Ford is valued at about $67bil, meaning Tesla is valued at 27% times that of Ford. Yes, Tesla is expanding into Asia and they figure thats where most of their sales will come from. Ford sold ~850,000 units last quarter in North America alone.
> 
> I am honestly in awe. Don't get me wrong, I think Elon Musk is a hero and he will continue to revolutionize the world more than he already has--I also think their product is great. But this is insane I think. 
> *



just another bubble like in 2000. People have no clue what to put money in because rates are 0 and real inflation is a concern. They're dumping their money into anything that moves. Stocks, houses, art, etc. This won't end well. Prices of anything now a day including Tesla stock has nothing to do with sound fundamentals.

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## eatrice

The stock is overpriced for sure. I've been following it closely since $20 range. Its currently priced atleast 2 years ahead of its actual earnings. I can see it drop back down to $70's with a missed quarter, bad press, or economic factors. 

However, I do believe in the fundamentals of this company. The release of Model X and 4th gen is just a matter of when, not if. Current manufacturers are just not up to spec, and I do not see them being able to compete with Tesla within the next few years. In the short term though, I would not touch this stock, too much risk involved even if the fundamentals are good. Wait for it to drop.

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## Sugarphreak

...

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## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *LOL, Tesla is a giant bubble of false hopes.... a lot of people are going to get burned by that stock at some point.*



If there was ever something to highlight how much the stock market has become like gambling, this is it.

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## themack89

So tempted to do an asymmetric downside play on this stock.  :Drool:

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## Toma

> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> 
> If there was ever something to highlight how much the stock market has become like gambling, this is it.*



Become? It's been a scam since the 30's lol. Books have been written on what a scam it is every decade.

But that gets ignored. Cause when you are on the right side of the game...you win.

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## ExtraSlow

Only a little off topic  :hijacked:  
Elon has other fun plans to revolutionize travel, when he has time. 
BBC News - Hyperloop between LA and SF

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## supe

> _Originally posted by rx7_turbo2_ 
> * 
> 
> A fairly subjective statement.*



Not really, this car won Motor Trends car of the year and also was rated a 99/100 by consumer reports and with the announcements the expansion of the super charger network and the quicker charge times it handles some of the concerns from the consumer reports review.

Anyway, I understand that there is a difference between Tesla the company and TSLA the stock. On one side we have a very successful startup tech company that is building new and exciting products backed by a genius wiz kid that is out to make the planet a better place. On the other hand we have a grossly over valued stock when measured in today dollars. 

For me, because I can't find any substantial negative reviews on the product, because I believe the world needs a better mode of transport and EV's are that, because oil is inherently dirty and expensive I think Tesla is the solution and maybe TSLA can one day will justify that.

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## rage2

Tesla has a really strong marketing team, the general consensus is that they're outselling the big manufacturers, but looking at the fine print, they're outselling the big manufacturers in a single model comparison (this is key). In the short term, I think they're going to do quite well. Their technology is being used by big manufacturers as well (specifically, Toyota and Mercedes) so they're going down the right path.

The problem is long term. They can churn out all the Model X's they want, but they will have problems scaling up quickly to 10, 20 models like the big manufacturers. Look back at the Tesla promises, and you'll see that they've had delays and problems ramping up to target production numbers over the years. As with any leading edge company, they'll get fucked over if they can't scale fast enough. The big manufacturers can design, develop, and manufacture at rates that makes Tesla look like a backyard operation. If they feel like it's time that the market is ready for EV's, where all the showstoppers have been ironed out (quick charge, convenience of a gas vehicle, etc), they'll make Tesla look stupid. This is why Toyota and Mercedes is relying on Tesla today, it's a cheap way for them to get into the EV market and test the waters, without a heavy investment, and with a product that's proven with today's technological barriers. 

EV's are still a novelty, anyone that think it will take over the world in the short term is dreaming. There needs to be so much infrastructure built to properly support it to make it fesible for critical mass. It can be the best product out there, but once it reaches critical mass, it doesn't matter. Shitty products sell, and is what rakes in the money. With that being said, Tesla needs to be able to scale up from a boutique manufacturer to a real manufacturing level to beat the big manufacturers. That means they'll need hundreds of billions of dollars behind them to all bet on EV being truly the path of the future, and take losses for a decade or 2 to be able to compete at that time. I don't see enough big investors willing to take that gamble with that much money.

I like to compare Tesla to Tivo, who introduced the world to DVR's with a product that was so awesome, it knew what you wanted to watch, and recorded stuff that thinks you might watch. They patented the shit out of those features so nobody could copy them. The box was perfect, and people started buying tons of them. Satellite and Cable providers partnered with Tivo and sold expensive Tivo boxes. Then, as DVR's reached critical mass, Satellite and Cable providers came out with shitty DVR's, which we still use today. It was cheaper, it wasn't anywhere near as smart or intuative as Tivo, it was a shittier product, but the key was that it was cheap. The masses chose the shittier mass produced products, and Tivo has been in decline since.

That's my take on Tesla.

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## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> Not really, this car won Motor Trends car of the year
> *



Your using Motor Trends subjective review to suggest your statement that it's "the best car ever made" isn't subjective? :dunno:

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## Xtrema

Tivo can't compete in a closed system environment, they were pretty much locked out during the digital switch on cable. Where Tesla's environment is a bit more open.

But I agree that the switch from boutique to mass manufacturer may not go well for Tesla. Novelty is what float the brand right now. They don't have the infrastructure and demand to line up suppliers like the traditional car manufacturers can. They were lucky to get NUMMI on the cheap to ramp up production. 

I see Tesla will remain boutique like Ferrari but components will be sold to other manufacturers to further justify the investment of EV infrastructure. I don't see how they can compete on the low end ($35K) when there are a few players there already.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> *Tivo can't compete in a closed system environment, they were pretty much locked out during the digital switch on cable. Where Tesla's environment is a bit more open.*



This is not true. Cable providers in the US are required by the FCC to support Cablecard (lobbied by Tivo and CEA), so that Tivo can't get fucked over by the cable companies when they switched to digital. The current Tivo HD boxes are all cablecard compliant boxes, and work on any US Cable provider.

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## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> because oil is inherently dirty and expensive*



And coal is clean? Lolwut?  :ROFL!:

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## ercchry

i think licensing is key. if they are successful in starting up these quick swap battery stations. people are going to want a 5min "fuel up", license these universal battery packs to the big guys... win

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## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> This is not true. Cable providers in the US are required by the FCC to support Cablecard (lobbied by Tivo and CEA), so that Tivo can't get fucked over by the cable companies when they switched to digital. The current Tivo HD boxes are all cablecard compliant boxes, and work on any US Cable provider.*



Didn't know that. Then it's probably the bundling that muscle them out. Nobody will pay $400 for something that can be had for less.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> *Didn't know that. Then it's probably the bundling that muscle them out. Nobody will pay $400 for something that can be had for less.*



Inability to scale killed Tivo. They couldn't scale up manufacturing to bring down costs compared to the "cheap dvr" manufacturers. If I remember right, the cost to build a Tivo box was 3-4x more than a Motorola crappy DVR. Then, there's the enhanced guide content that's needed for Tivo's cool features. Tivo had to maintain this data, and ship it out to the millions of subscribers. There's a cost attached to that, and Tivo requires a monthly subscription to help pay for the enhanced data. It just wasn't worth it to the average consumer at the other end.

Google up why tivo failed, tons of articles that can draw parallels to where Tesla is going.

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## supe

> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> 
> And coal is clean? Lolwut? *



Its a good argument but not fully correct. An EV unlike an ICE vehicle actually gets cleaner over time because the source of the energy will get cleaner and cleaner as more solar plants and wind farms get created. Further generating electricity is always going to be more efficient than what an ICE can do which is something like 20% efficient. 





> _Originally posted by ercchry_ 
> *i think licensing is key. if they are successful in starting up these quick swap battery stations. people are going to want a 5min &quot;fuel up&quot;, license these universal battery packs to the big guys... win*



Tesla is not only building cars but they are building out a charging network as well. Tesla will license out this network to other manufacturers which will generate even more cashflow to expand their business and build even more superchargers. The ball is already rolling.

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## Sugarphreak

...

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## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I think the only reason you can't find negative reviews is because the people who forked over way too much money for a novelty car are either too infatuated or too proud to admit it was a waste of money. 
> *



Talk about subjective. Why would it be a waste of money? The car out drags an M5 and performs like a sports car, has way more luggage space, is technologically advanced, has much less moving parts which basically means no service required and has the basically the same price tag as its ICE counter-parts. In fact when you take into account the FREE supercharger network, the savings from service and other parts of the ICE car that break down and the efficiency of fuel in general, I would argue this is a fabulous car to own as far as value goes. 

Just like the hummer and other inefficient gas guzzlers once consumers realize the cost savings of EV's, ICE will not be able to compete. It may not be Tesla, but so far they are on track to do well and take a large piece of the EV market share.

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## Sugarphreak

...

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## FraserB

Your window sticker is wrong. You don't have an underbody mounted spare tire carrier :Wink:

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## ExtraSlow

I'm super excited about the work that Tesla is doing, and I hope they succeed at it. I also will agree with Supe that there is the potential for centrally generated electricity to be cleaner than an ICE, although currently that's not the case in many places. 

The speed at which new technology hits the vehicle market is currently faster than it transfers to the major utilities just because of the very long lifespan of those big plants. A coal fired generating station has a lifespan of 50 years or more, with only minor changes along the way. 90% of the vehcile fleet is replaced every 10 years or so. 

All in all, exciting times. Every possible way to save energy in any form should be looked at. 

Next step, better batteries . . . .

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Talk about subjective. Why would it be a waste of money? The car out drags an M5 and performs like a sports car, has way more luggage space, is technologically advanced, has much less moving parts which basically means no service required and has the basically the same price tag as its ICE counter-parts. In fact when you take into account the FREE supercharger network, the savings from service and other parts of the ICE car that break down and the efficiency of fuel in general, I would argue this is a fabulous car to own as far as value goes.*



Funny thing, here's what my boss said after driving the Tesla. He's not a hardcore car guy, lives in the bay area with all the tech CEO's, so he's basically the target market for Tesla.



> I test drove the Tesla. But still like the engine rev of the amg. :-)



Didn't even talk about charging stations, or convenience at all haha. Argue however you want, Tesla is still a boutique shop with a very small market target, people like supe.

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## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> Its a good argument but not fully correct. An EV unlike an ICE vehicle actually gets cleaner over time because the source of the energy will get cleaner and cleaner as more solar plants and wind farms get created.*



Solar plants and wind farms are hardly even CLOSE to making a dent in global energy supplies, and won't for a very long time. I could understand using hydro (very damaging to the environment) or nuclear (waste goes where?) as an argument.

Also, you do understand that many current cars actually make the air CLEANER in places like California, right? I'm not arguing that our current resources we use for power are clean, but the scales of efficiency really do cut down quite a bit in a "per capita" comparison to renewable resources.

My point is that Tesla won't succeed. It's a glorified nerd circle jerk at worst, a niche product at best. People will get burned. Of course, I wish I had invested $50k-$100k in it and rode the boom  :ROFL!:

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## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Funny thing, here's what my boss said after driving the Tesla. He's not a hardcore car guy, lives in the bay area with all the tech CEO's, so he's basically the target market for Tesla.
> 
> Didn't even talk about charging stations, or convenience at all haha. Argue however you want, Tesla is still a boutique shop with a very small market target, people like supe.*



I think as of today youre right, its a small market and the demographics isnt for everyone. However I think the landscape is changing. I just came back from Vancouver and kept my eye out for Teslas and ended up spotting a few. They are beautiful cars. Elon has stated that they have seen a balloon effect whenever they introduce cars to new areas so having these cars on the road only help to sell even more Teslas. Its actually funny that you mentioned that Tesla has a good marketing team, Tesla has actually spent zero on marketing and cannot keep up with demand. 

I think its fair to knock the stock price of Tesla since it is extraordinarily high but to discount the company without actually ever trying it out for yourself might mean youre missing out on the next big thing. From reading many reviews and testimonials, I dont think your CEO is the target market, it sounds more like people that know and understand cars are the people that are most enthusiastic about Tesla, many many people are converting from BMWs and other high end cars to the Model S but the bottom line is that this new player is competing toe to toe if not winning with the best of them.




> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> 
> Solar plants and wind farms are hardly even CLOSE to making a dent in global energy supplies, and won't for a very long time. I could understand using hydro (very damaging to the environment) or nuclear (waste goes where?) as an argument.
> *



The worlds % of renewable energy consumption in 2010 is 16% and growing. Regardless, what is your point? So because we use dirty energy today we should just give up and go on using it? Where is the hope for a better tomorrow? EV's may not be the answer but its still a step in a better direction. Go on inhaling your tailpipe emissions.




> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> Also, you do understand that many current cars actually make the air CLEANER in places like California, right?
> *



I'm highly skeptical, what car makes the air cleaner?

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## Toma

Tesla changed the world, and they are just starting.

Both GM and Nissan have publicly credited Tesla for showing them that electric is do able.

If Tesla fails or succeeds is not the issue. It's whether the idea spreads, and is embraced.

Internal combustion MUST die. Many reasons, but sorry ass efficiency alone should do it. 

Now, their Hyperloop idea....

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/def...loop-alpha.pdf

The company is almost worthy of the inventors name that is embraces. I love everything about it.

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## Xtrema

EVs are inevitable. It won't be mainstream any time soon but it may let us have big ICEs a bit longer. You can generate electricity from many methods but only 1 source for ICEs.

Even if we can get a hydrogen/fuel cell industry started, we are still no better off than gasoline.

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## Toma

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> *EVs are inevitable. It won't be mainstream any time soon but it may let us have big ICEs a bit longer. You can generate electricity from many methods but only 1 source for ICEs.
> 
> Even if we can get a hydrogen/fuel cell industry started, we are still no better off than gasoline.*



 20 years ago, I would never have believed a 3.2 pound battery would be starting my car.

Don't forget, early 1900's New York's UPS fleet was all electric. It was crooked pennies a barrel oil that stalled technology and innovation.

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## Rat Fink

.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I think as of today youre right, its a small market and the demographics isnt for everyone. However I think the landscape is changing. I just came back from Vancouver and kept my eye out for Teslas and ended up spotting a few. They are beautiful cars. Elon has stated that they have seen a balloon effect whenever they introduce cars to new areas so having these cars on the road only help to sell even more Teslas. Its actually funny that you mentioned that Tesla has a good marketing team, Tesla has actually spent zero on marketing and cannot keep up with demand. 
> 
> I think its fair to knock the stock price of Tesla since it is extraordinarily high but to discount the company without actually ever trying it out for yourself might mean youre missing out on the next big thing. From reading many reviews and testimonials, I dont think your CEO is the target market, it sounds more like people that know and understand cars are the people that are most enthusiastic about Tesla, many many people are converting from BMWs and other high end cars to the Model S but the bottom line is that this new player is competing toe to toe if not winning with the best of them.*



Read my post again. I'm knocking Tesla as a company, not their cars. The stock valuation is for the company, the car is only a small part of the valuation. They're a boutique manufacturer and will have problems scaling up if they want to be "the next best thing". They do not have the resources today to compete with the big manufacturers when EV's hit critical mass (ie, my boss the non hardcore car guy will want one).

As for their marketing, I said nothing about marketing spend. I don't know how much they spend, but they have a marketing department that knocks out press releases, posts on social media sites, and generate buzz. They're doing a terrific job of it.




> _Originally posted by Toma_ 
> *Don't forget, early 1900's New York's UPS fleet was all electric. It was crooked pennies a barrel oil that stalled technology and innovation.*






> _Originally posted by Rat Fink_ 
> *Henry Fords wife even drove an electric car in the early 1900s*



Electric cars were very popular before internal combustion engines were refined and became reliable, for decades they were the choice of cars. There were no roads connecting cities, so EV's worked well for localized use. ICE cars took over because it was more powerful, had much longer range, cheaper to run, and "recharging" was quick. When cities became connected by roads, it was game over. EV's disappeared because it couldn't overcome these issues. Today, I think 2 of those issues have been fixed (cost per mile, power). Once range and recharging can be comparable to ICE cars, that's probably when we'll see things shift again towards EVs.

No oil conspiracy, just technological advances.

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## Super_Geo

I'm really excited for Tesla. If I were in the market for a $100k vehicle, I would give them a strong look.

Food for thought:
» Click image for larger version

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## Tomaz

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> I'm highly skeptical, what car makes the air cleaner?*



When compared to the ambient air quality in large metro centres like LA, a lot of cars today shoot out less PPM of greenhouse gasses.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by Tomaz_ 
> *When compared to the ambient air quality in large metro centres like LA, a lot of cars today shoot out less PPM of greenhouse gasses.*



I think it's the other way around. There's less hydrocarbons than ambient air in places like LA, but there's definately more CO and CO2 coming out the tailpipe than what's in the air.

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## Tomaz

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> I think it's the other way around. There's less hydrocarbons than ambient air in places like LA, but there's definately more CO and CO2 coming out the tailpipe than what's in the air.*



Ah right, it's before noon. thanks for the correction. lol

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## AudiPWR

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *And yet I'd still take a M5 any day of the week... 
> 
> My Hummer gets great gas milage btw, lol. 
> *



A H3T is hardly a hummer..More like a glorified Blazer.

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## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Read my post again. I'm knocking Tesla as a company, not their cars. The stock valuation is for the company, the car is only a small part of the valuation. They're a boutique manufacturer and will have problems scaling up if they want to be &quot;the next best thing&quot;. They do not have the resources today to compete with the big manufacturers when EV's hit critical mass (ie, my boss the non hardcore car guy will want one).
> *



Read this headline: 
http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/auto...udi/index.html

In their first attempt at a mass production car they are already beating out some big names, so if you say boutique, I guess it depends on your definition. 

You're also giving the big auto companies too much credit. These companies are very slow moving machines. Many are unionized and all have to work through a dealer network that all steal from the bottom line. Further these car companies have spent decades of R&D and built factories to build ICE vehicles which they won't want to throw away. Their own dealer networks will resist EV's because of their low maintenance costs, and we all know how dealerships make money. 

Tesla is more nimble with the direct to consumer strategy because there is no need for a middle man. They are dumping every dollar back into scaling up their operation and reducing costs because that is their long term strategy from the start. Elon is also leveraging real life space technology from SpaceX into Tesla which is a huge advantage both for cost savings and for being technologically advanced. Once Tesla releases an SUV then their lower price Gen3 they will have a very compelling vehicle for each market segment.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Read this headline: 
> http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/auto...udi/index.html
> 
> In their first attempt at a mass production car they are already beating out some big names, so if you say boutique, I guess it depends on your definition. 
> 
> You're also giving the big auto companies too much credit. These companies are very slow moving machines. Many are unionized and all have to work through a dealer network that all steal from the bottom line. Further these car companies have spent decades of R&amp;D and built factories to build ICE vehicles which they won't want to throw away. Their own dealer networks will resist EV's because of their low maintenance costs, and we all know how dealerships make money. 
> 
> Tesla is more nimble with the direct to consumer strategy because there is no need for a middle man. They are dumping every dollar back into scaling up their operation and reducing costs because that is their long term strategy from the start. Elon is also leveraging real life space technology from SpaceX into Tesla which is a huge advantage both for cost savings and for being technologically . Once Tesla releases an SUV then their lower price Gen3 they will have a very compelling vehicle for each market segment.*



Again, mass producing 1 or 2 models is a hell of a lot different than mass producing 20 models in 10 manufacturering plants worldwide. I don't think you're understanding what I'm talking about when it comes to scaling up. You have to look at the big picture. That headline is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to marketing. Tesla beat 3 models that are way more expensive. Hell, just go compare against the 5 series, E class, and the A6 and see what happens. If you look at the big picture and compare all luxury vehicles, Tesla is a rounding error.

You're right about the big manufactures, they have a lot of issues, but that again has nothing to do with scale.

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## Super_Geo

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Again, mass producing 1 or 2 models is a hell of a lot different than mass producing 20 models in 10 manufacturering plants worldwide.*



Why do they need 20 models? I don't think they've ever intended to be the Swiss Army knife of car manufacturers. They are going to make 4-5 great cars (small commuter, mid-sized commuter, mid-sized SUV, luxury car, truck), and that'll be enough. 

I'm on the other side of the fence on the scaling issue... Tesla will scale up a lot more efficiently than GM.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by Super_Geo_ 
> *Why do they need 20 models? I don't think they've ever intended to be the Swiss Army knife of car manufacturers.*



The valuation says otherwise. We ARE talking about Tesla's valuation aren't we?  :crazy nut:

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## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> Read this headline: 
> http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/auto...udi/index.html
> *



I hate that article. They are comparing cars in different classes, claiming they beat the big 3 of luxury then throw in a qualifier later. This is almost a plant by Tesla. 


If you compare it to 5/E/A6, a line up that's more in line of Tesla's prices (before and after tax credits) all these are moving at 2000-6000 units per month, not 5000 per quarter.

The only cars in this class that Tesla can really claim to beat are Lincoln MKS, Acura RLX and Infiniti M class.

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## Rat Fink

.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by Rat Fink_ 
> *It also looks like the technicians may be required to haul an enclosed car trailer (possibly pickup and drop off customer vehicles??). That would be a great perk considering the costs.*



That's for running out of power.  :Wink: 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's for delivery, as they deliver to your door.

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## rage2

I was putting myself to sleep last night by doing some research on Tesla stock, stumbled upon this. A funny watch, guy responding to comments on his Tesla stock assessment.



I found this vid in the official Tesla forums, and found there's actually quite a few teething problems with the cars. At least, based on how many they sold and how many posts there are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/forums/di.../tesla-model-s

And the original video analysis of the stock:

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## supe

Regarding the stock price, most of his explanation refers to what Tesla has done in the past. I'm sure if you drew a slope line of Tesla's revenues and extrapolated into the future you get a pretty good idea of why this stock is forward looking. Whether its massive stock price is worthy is yet to be seen.

If we're talking about the product of Tesla I'm sure the teething issues such as lack of rear seat cupholders can be forgiven considering Tesla's latest best safety rating ever. The car is so strong it broke the testing equipment!

Anyway, I also found this video on the Tesla forums.

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## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Regarding the stock price, most of his explanation refers to what Tesla has done in the past. I'm sure if you drew a slope line of Tesla's revenues and extrapolated into the future you get a pretty good idea of why this stock is forward looking. Whether its massive stock price is worthy is yet to be seen.*



There are a lot smarter people than me that has done the homework. This one has a lot of revenue breakdown, scalability, and revenue of ZEV credits which are slowly declining:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspe...-tesla-motors/

If you read some of the stock valuation threads in the Tesla forums, you can clearly see that the price is mostly driven by emotions. As for ignoring the past, you can't do that, when they've only had 1 profitable quarter.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *If we're talking about the product of Tesla I'm sure the teething issues such as lack of rear seat cupholders can be forgiven considering Tesla's latest best safety rating ever. The car is so strong it broke the testing equipment!*



Nah, I'll have to dig up the threads when I have time. Charger not disconnecting (stranded), doors not opening (have to jump in from another door), cars not charging. There's also issues with repairs, parts availability and warranty work. Since nobody can work on the cars except Tesla (they won't allow it), they're flying out Rangers to fix any problems. Goes back to my scalability concerns.

Again, I'm purely looking at this from a stock valuation standpoint. I think Tesla is doing a great thing today. Good company, good car. Just overvalued.

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## milesmcewing

I just came back from three days of testing the new Tesla Model 'S'

Great power, disliked everything else.

My disclaimer is that I work for Porsche so my opinions will be biased.....

We took it out for a burn through the mountains in Park City Utah - the car started with a full charge.

I heard a new term "Range Anxiety" - totally get that, the car started with 265 miles of range - two big hills and twenty minutes later and it showed 45 miles left, nearest charge station? 500 miles! for the next hour we were very conservative trying to protect the range, all was good as we gained enough back to get to the hotel. One of the other cars had the client turn of the traction control and stomp on it - the system crashed and left the car stranded, Tesla was able to reboot the car and allow it to continue.

Their marketing material is a bit misleading - information was quoted for costing and range based on the lower end models and performance quoted on the upper end so the two did not jive. 

The one I was driving was 116K USD - I liked the 17 inch screen except in the dark where it was very obtrusive, the second part of that was the fact that the radio and nav system is 3g, so when you lose the signal, you lose it all.

I could not fit in the back seat and the roof liner was low with a sharp edge on the back of your head, seats were also uncomfortable with the front ones digging into my ribs on both sides.

Having the battery pack on the floor meant the seat was very high, so in the front I had a very hard time seeing and the A-pillar completely blocked my ability to turn left.

The car had 300 miles on the odo when I picked it up and the seat trim had fallen off, the roof liner let go on the passenger side and the rubber window seals were distorted in several places.

What did I like? 
the styling is good 
the trunk space is great
The power is great - in a drag race with a Panamera Turbo using launch control there was not an inch in it until 90 miles an hour

The worst part:
53 hour recharge time! they quote 9, but that is with their proprietary charger and specific 240 volt system modified in your house - the 'standard' chargers used in charge points and public stations do NOT fit the plug.
If your going to Grandmas house, you better like the meatloaf, you're gonna' be there a while!

Overall a great attempt at solving the problem - lots of innovation and smart thinking.

I have to believe however that the other manufacturers will continue to learn at great pace and their experience will push Telsa down.

The Chevy Volt is already a better product since it can charge itself and is very cost effective. Of course my biased opinion from Porsche is that our new system is the best currently available (we invented hybrids over a 100 years ago). The new Panamera will happily go over 80 miles an hour on full electric and you can charge while driving.

With our non-proprietary plugins you can recharge in 2.5 hours.

The next few years will be very interesting.

Back on topic, I think it is a good company with good innovators, just heavily overvalued.
Just my two cents...

----------


## msommers

Thanks for the review, Miles, that was very informative.

----------


## themack89

I'll probably be buying puts before every earnings release... One decent miss and it could sewer hard.

Always need a catalyst for these types of things.

----------


## supe

Tesla outsells Buick, FIAT, Land Rover, Lincoln and Mitsubishi in California:

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/21/...fornia-market/

----------


## you&me

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Tesla outsells Buick, FIAT, Land Rover, Lincoln and Mitsubishi in California:
> 
> http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/21/...fornia-market/*



I followed link after link, but couldn't find anything. I'd love to see a source for their numbers. 

There is absolutely zero chance that the Model S out sold Land Rover in California. And I have a hard time believing it's the 3rd best selling "luxury" car behind the E-Class and 5-Series (A6 anyone?)... Fucking hippies...

Edit - Well f-me, here's the numbers - http://www.cncda.org/secure/GetFile.aspx?ID=2583

----------


## supe

Nice find, according to your link Tesla outsold Porsche as well!

----------


## themack89

Yeah. Tesla is totally worth 1/3rd the value of Ford, another automaker who profited $1.4bil in Q2 compared to Tesla's $70million, especially with 1 (2?) profitable quarter to project future earnings.

Let me see if I got the math right...
Tesla Earnings / Ford Earnings... 5%
Tesla Valuation / Ford Valuation... 30%

Yeah this makes sense to me now.

I've changed my mind. Considering that Tesla outsold Porsche in California (which was roughly *50%* of their entire sales across the United States), and its their first profitable quarter ever, I think the company is a steal of a deal at $20bil. Especially factoring in that Ford is only worth 3x as much as Tesla and they earn 20x more.

Supe, are you with me? Let's scrounge up every dollar we can and buy Tesla shares.

----------


## supe

Show me once that I told you that Tesla is a buy, I did not. 

What I have been saying is Tesla as well as EV's is going to be a big part of the future. You can't compare a growth company with HUGE potential to a blue chip company thats been around for 100 years. 

Everyone who has shorted Tesla based on fundamentals has lost their shirt, thats because the market as we all know is forward looking. If Tesla didn't have a substantial product that can make (a lot of) money then sure bet against it, but the problem is Tesla has the potential to be a major disrupter and is making headlines all the time. They just completed their first shipments to Europe and Asia meaning they are now an international automaker. 

Lets just assume that Tesla can do to the world what they did in California, then that right there justifies their current valuation because Tesla is valued at about what Porsche is, but why stop there, Tesla has even more potential than that.

Truly, I don't know if I could put money into Tesla at this valuation, but I sure as hell wouldn't bet against them.

Are you with me?

----------


## themack89

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Truly, I don't know if I could put money into Tesla at this valuation, but I sure as hell wouldn't bet against them.
> 
> Are you with me?*



I'm with you.

I never said Tesla was going to fail, or their product sucks (I actually am glad people like Musk exist to bring revolution). In fact, in my original post I mentioned I think their product is great and will change the world.

I am simply just confused as to why the market has priced in, when comparing apples to apples, 6x more future earnings than other automakers.

In any case, I see potential fragility in their stock if they botch earnings relative to estimates. This is what I hope to take advantage of.

It is a "trade," not a long term investment.

Are we with each other now?




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Everyone who has shorted Tesla based on fundamentals has lost their shirt, thats because* there has been no appropriate catalyst to shock the stock



Just throwing that in there for my opinion.  :Pooosie:  It needs a headline thats bad. I think those who have "lost their shirts" shorting Tesla has failed to learn from previous examples, such as Netflix. Hype and exuberance combine to make one of the most powerful forces in the market. Again, my opinion.

----------


## themack89

> _Originally posted by themack89_ 
> *I'll probably be buying puts before every earnings release... One decent miss and it could sewer hard.
> 
> Always need a catalyst for these types of things.*



 :dunno:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *lol, yeah... not surprising
> 
> I heard a story about one of thier cars catching fire on the higway a while ago as well.
> 
> Tesla is going to crash hard.*



Everyone is entitled to their opinion but at least have an informed opinion. Fires in cars is a common occurrence just youtube car fire and you'll see. The highway incident, if it happened to a regular car would have obliterated it, further the car was smart enough to inform the driver to pull over before the fire even started. The car was also able to limit the fire to just one section of the car. Regular cars can burn right down to the ground. 

The possibility of Tesla failing should not be attributed to its safety, the fact is Tesla's are some of the safest cars on the road if not safest. 

I still firmly believe Tesla will be a big part of the future. Just wait until the Model X comes. For comparison sake, look at what the cayenne did for Porsche. As for the stock price... I do believe it is high, but I still wouldn't bet against it.

----------


## n1zm0

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *I heard a story about one of thier cars catching fire on the higway a while ago as well.
> *



I thought Elon handled it pretty professionally and much like that of an aircraft TSB investigative approach, the most recent one in Mexico was the same thing, guy hit some debris at a high rate of speed (while drunk):




> A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.
> ~
> It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front by the internal firewalls built into the pack structure. At no point did fire enter the passenger compartment.
> ~
> Had a conventional gasoline car encountered the same object on the highway, the result could have been far worse. A typical gasoline car only has a thin metal sheet protecting the underbody, leaving it vulnerable to destruction of the fuel supply lines or fuel tank, which causes a pool of gasoline to form and often burn the entire car to the ground. In contrast, the combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan.
> http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire



Tesla also does well in Norway, but that is really because of their insane car taxes there:
http://jalopnik.com/norwegians-are-b...the-1443079513 

As well as top selling car in 8 of America's richest cities 

I think they're off to a decent start so far.

----------


## Xtrema

3rd fire in 6 weeks.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/tesl...les-8C11553218

Lost another 7% @ $139.

----------


## themack89

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> *3rd fire in 6 weeks.
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/business/tesl...les-8C11553218
> 
> Lost another 7% @ $139.*



Fed opens probe into Fires.

$120.  :Clap:

----------


## supe

Looks like there is a bit of a bounce going on. Any predictions short and long term?

----------


## rage2

It's hard to predict valuation based on human emotion, which is what's driving the majority of the value of Tesla stock.

More fires? Stock dives. More rich people praising Tesla? Stock bounces. That's my prediction.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *A 30% drop in two weeks  
> 
> ....and the house of cards finally starts to crumble *



House of cards is a bit extreme. 

All modes of transportation will be powered by electricity in the future. Tesla is poised to lead that front. 

The Model S is still considered one of the best cars ever made. There has been zero fatalities from occupants in a Model S, despite major collisions http://bit.ly/144lHzm . This car is built with space grade technology and could very well be the safest vehicle on the road, ever. The company is lead by a tech genius who is set to revolutionize not one, not two, not even three but 4 completely different industries. 

In the short term, the stock is bound to bounce around, but long term, I'm putting my money on whatever Elon does.

----------


## eatrice

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> In the short term, the stock is bound to bounce around, but long term, I'm putting my money on whatever Elon does.*



I don't see that bounce coming around until another 50%+ drop. Another 5% shaved today.

----------


## BigMass

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> House of cards is a bit extreme. 
> 
> All modes of transportation will be powered by electricity in the future. Tesla is poised to lead that front. 
> 
> The Model S is still considered one of the best cars ever made. There has been zero fatalities from occupants in a Model S, despite major collisions http://bit.ly/144lHzm . This car is built with space grade technology and could very well be the safest vehicle on the road, ever. The company is lead by a tech genius who is set to revolutionize not one, not two, not even three but 4 completely different industries. 
> 
> In the short term, the stock is bound to bounce around, but long term, I'm putting my money on whatever Elon does.*



but we're talking about valuation. Is Tesla a good company and is Elon a visionary? Sure. Problem is just because something is good doesn't give it infinite value. How much is Tesla worth is the question? It's obviously not worth $200/share. The valuation was and currently is insane. Doesn't mean it's not a good company.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by BigMass_ 
> * 
> 
> but we're talking about valuation. Is Tesla a good company and is Elon a visionary? Sure. Problem is just because something is good doesn't give it infinite value. How much is Tesla worth is the question? It's obviously not worth $200/share. The valuation was and currently is insane. Doesn't mean it's not a good company.*



I understand we're talking valuation. I love hearing other peoples suggestions of valuation. I also understand there is a difference between Tesla and TSLA, but at the end of the day the two are still inextricably linked. 

As for valuation, the company hit its target of 22% gross margin with a target of 25% in Q4. They are supply constrained with overwhelming global demand with next to zero marketing. They have the manufacturing plant, the know how, the leadership and the cash to develop and manufacture the gen 3 low cost EV that will sell in the hundreds of thousands. But of course before the gen 3 will come the model X suv. Remember what the Cayenne did for Porsche?

Is it worth $200 today... maybe not, but this is a growth stock, so maybe its worth $200 tomorrow? Two months from now? Two years?

----------


## BigMass

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> I understand we're talking valuation. I love hearing other peoples suggestions of valuation. I also understand there is a difference between Tesla and TSLA, but at the end of the day the two are still inextricably linked. 
> 
> As for valuation, the company hit its target of 22% gross margin with a target of 25% in Q4. They are supply constrained with overwhelming global demand with next to zero marketing. They have the manufacturing plant, the know how, the leadership and the cash to develop and manufacture the gen 3 low cost EV that will sell in the hundreds of thousands. But of course before the gen 3 will come the model X suv. Remember what the Cayenne did for Porsche?
> 
> Is it worth $200 today... maybe not, but this is a growth stock, so maybe its worth $200 tomorrow? Two months from now? Two years?*



depends on how you see their growth. If you think the company will be worth $200 in 3 years, do you pay $200 for it now? That would make no sense in terms of risk/reward. The markets are forward looking but currently the market is so overvalued that to find a real deal in a stock is next to impossible. The valuation pretty much means that the company basically NEEDS to hit it big or it's failure in terms of it's stock price. The risk/reward is just not there for me at this time is what i'm saying. Remember that the market thought this thing was worth $30 not too long ago. Then $180? You have to ask yourself, was that because of things nobody saw when it was at $30 or was it because Ben keeps pumping junk into the veins of the market?

----------


## supe

Tesla Consumer Reports satisfaction survey 99/100, this matches the Consumer Reports overall rating of 99. 

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-t...of-100-points/

According to Rage, more rich people praising Tesla.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Tesla Consumer Reports satisfaction survey 99/100, this matches the Consumer Reports overall rating of 99. 
> 
> http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-t...of-100-points/
> 
> According to Rage, more rich people praising Tesla.*



Definately poor people in that review. The stock didn't rebound.

----------


## rage2

Missed this post.



> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *All modes of transportation will be powered by electricity in the future. Tesla is poised to lead that front.*



Care to make a friendly wager on that, on those conditions?  :Smilie: 

There are other technologies such as Hydrogen Fuel Cell that fixes a lot of issues that Electric Vehicles currently have, and is next to impossible to fix in the short term without a major breakthrough in electrical storage technologies. Even if it comes true, I don't believe Tesla will be at the forefront of EV in the upcoming years. See my scale post earlier.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *The Model S is still considered one of the best cars ever made. There has been zero fatalities from occupants in a Model S, despite major collisions http://bit.ly/144lHzm . This car is built with space grade technology and could very well be the safest vehicle on the road, ever. The company is lead by a tech genius who is set to revolutionize not one, not two, not even three but 4 completely different industries.*



The Concorde was the same, safest mode of air transportation. Until it crashed once which was enough to fuck the metrics because there weren't that many miles flown in the Concorde compared to all miles flown, becoming the most dangerous mode of air transport overnight.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2



----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * Tesla isnt a car company
> 
> Yes, I said it they might be able to produce a couple of interesting models, but frankly they are just not any good at making money doing it and never will be. 
> 
> ...
> 
> The problem with these types of companies is eventually people start noticing that investor money is drying up, leaks of financial ruin start coming out and the stock basically tanks taking the company with it. This is more or less a pyramid scheme on a massive scale. Think Bre-X hell, go look at a Bre-X chart and then compare it to Tesla. 
> *



O.o 

Wat? I want some of what you're smoking. You're not even on this planet.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> It is a fact they dont make money on cars, they make money by enticing investors and collecting carbon credits it is fair to say that Tesla is not a car company.
> 
> No different than McDonalds most people assume that McDonalds is in the business of fast food, when really they are in the business of real estate.*




I refuse to get trolled on beyond. Nice try.

----------


## rage2

Not really trolling there, Sugarphreak has an excellent point, with the exception of Bre-X, that's a little extreme as that was purely fraud.

As for the McDonald's comparison, Tesla does exactly what Sugarphreak says. And McDonald's is a real estate company, read Ray Kroc's autobiography about how McDonald's became so successful. It's a great read.

----------


## supe

Ok Sugarphreak, I fully understand your mcdonalds example, I was blown away when I first learned about what companies true business models are, same reason as why the Nexus phones are so damn cheap, its because Google is an ad company not a hardware company. 

I think you're wrong when it comes to Tesla. Tesla IS a car company. They make cars, and they make money from selling cars and car parts. And yes they do make money. Last quarter they hit their healthy target of 22% gross margin, you can't discount that fact. Tesla has partnerships with both Toyota and Mercedes, and the fact is, they can't make their cars fast enough to keep up with the demand, talk about a good problem to have. 

Keep in mind that Tesla has spent next to zero on marketing. Also please explain why you refer to Elon as a playboy fantasy?

----------


## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by UndrgroundRider_ 
> * 
> 
> 
> I refuse to get trolled on beyond. Nice try.*



Trolled? The word you were looking for is owned.

Reading this thread is frustrating, there's a number of rational, intelligent people discussing rational intelligent analysis of Tesla, and there's a couple of Elon ball hangers who think he shits diamonds and pisses excellence. How do you argue with people like that?

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *Not really trolling there, Sugarphreak has an excellent point, with the exception of Bre-X, that's a little extreme as that was purely fraud.
> 
> As for the McDonald's comparison, Tesla does exactly what Sugarphreak says. And McDonald's is a real estate company, read Ray Kroc's autobiography about how McDonald's became so successful. It's a great read.*



Hahaha. You can't be serious?

As you said, Bre-X was outright fraud in a market that is inherently speculative. It's a totally different ball of wax than a car manufacturer that actually produces real tangible things. Comparing that to Tesla is pure stupidity.

As far as the whole "Tesla isn't a car company" thing goes, it's on the same level as the Bre-X comment. They make less than $5k in credits per car sold and only in California. Less than 5% of their revenue comes from credits. The gross margin on every model s sold is 25%, and they can't make them fast enough to meet demand. Yes, absolutely yes, they are a car company. 

How does that in any way shape or form relate to McDonald's business model?

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by rx7_turbo2_ 
> * 
> 
> Trolled? The word you were looking for is owned.
> 
> Reading this thread is frustrating, there's a number of rational, intelligent people discussing rational intelligent analysis of Tesla, and there's a couple of Elon ball hangers who think he shits diamonds and pisses excellence. How do you argue with people like that?*



Owned? Is everyone in this thread on crazy pills? Some guy says Tesla is like Bre-X and is a pyramid scheme, and everyone here... agrees with that?!? I just... I don't... I'm gettin too old for this shit.

----------


## rx7_turbo2

Sugarphreak said:
* "It is a fact they dont make money on cars, they make money by enticing investors and collecting carbon credits it is fair to say that Tesla is not a car company.

No different than McDonalds most people assume that McDonalds is in the business of fast food, when really they are in the business of real estate. "*

UndrgroundRider responded: 
*I refuse to get trolled on beyond. Nice try.*

How did you get trolled? Sugarphreak used a poor example with Bre-X so he chose a better one with McDonalds, he didn't "troll" you he "owned" you, is that not clear?

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by UndrgroundRider_ 
> *As far as the whole &quot;Tesla isn't a car company&quot; thing goes, it's on the same level as the Bre-X comment. They make less than $5k in credits per car sold and only in California. Less than 5% of their revenue comes from credits. The gross margin on every model s sold is 25%, and they can't make them fast enough to meet demand. Yes, absolutely yes, they are a car company. 
> 
> How does that in any way shape or form relate to McDonald's business model?*



Uhh, you're completely missed out on the carbon credits that they sell to Ford, GM, etc. Tesla sells 100% ZEV's, so they can sell off carbon credits to their competitors to meet their ZEV targets. Their competitors are in fact bankrolling Tesla due to carbon credits haha.

BTW - Tesla's profitable quarter is all thanks to accounting tricks. They used non-GAAP numbers to present a profit. Yes there would've been a cash profit for what they did, but it'll come back to bite them later on, which is why you have to use GAAP numbers.

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Uhh, you're completely missed out on the carbon credits that they sell to Ford, GM, etc. Tesla sells 100% ZEV's, so they can sell off carbon credits to their competitors to meet their ZEV targets.*



Did you even read my post? I specifically talked about the carbon credits. They work out to less than $5k per car and only apply to cars sold in cali.

Btw, I didnt say tesla was a good buy. Just that sugar was full of shit and has no clue. In fact I dont own any tesla because I do think they are over valued, even after this recent drop. Once the li-air batteries come out in a few years tesla will get crushed by the big manufacturers jumping in once it makes fiscal sense.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rx7_turbo2

Well if UndrgroundRider didn't know what an "owning" was before the post above should clear things up :ROFL!: 

Although I'm guessing it won't :Bang Head:

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by UndrgroundRider_ 
> *Did you even read my post? I specifically talked about the carbon credits. They work out to less than $5k per car and only apply to cars sold in cali.*



I did. And Sugarphreak answered what I was going to say. Thanks.

----------


## Unknown303

Christ Sugarphreak you're on fire in here. Summed up the facts like a boss, I couldn't agree more.

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Ok, lets get facts straight.*



*Great idea! Lets get some fucking facts straight.*

Tesla's gross margin excluding ZEV's is 22% today. GM's is 12%. Ford is 15%. Suck it. I guess none of them can make any money on cars.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  They must all be in the ZEV credit business. No wait! It must be a pyramid scheme. Bre-X!!!! [email protected] America!!! !  :ROFL!: 

All of the numbers you provided were originally based on Darryl Siry's original analysis, which has been completely debunked by an *official statement from Tesla.* AND guess what?!? Not only is Tesla legally required to be truthful in these statements but they actually have the hard financial data to back it up. It's not just some wild fiction made up by people trying to sell stock advice.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Here it is, straight from the horses mouth:




> _http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/08...y-exaggerated/_
> First, Tesla is not dependent on ZEV credit income. Siry noted that in our S-1 filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission that we generated $8.2 million from sales of ZEV credits, and that they accounted for 85% of our gross margin. However, he conveniently ignored the fact that this was related to 2009 financials. Our European sales had just begun in the second half of the year and we were in the early stages of Roadster production. Siry omitted to pull information from the same table that shows that in the most recent publicly filed quarter, we generated only $0.5 million of ZEV credit income*which represented a mere 13% of our gross margin.* We think many readers might have drawn a different conclusion about our dependence had both facts been presented.



The *blog post* you cite from *unbiased* Richard Finger bloody admits that those numbers are 100% guesses. He straight out admits it. It's not based on any official disclosure or financial statement form Tesla. *They are 100% pure estimation by people who are in the business of selling shock financial news.* TO TOP IT ALL OFF, look at the freaking date on that post. It's from bloody September! Q3 financials were released Nov 5. Your information is a full quarter out of date.  :facepalm: 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *But then... each sedan gets a number of cabon credits. Tesla can then sell these credits to other car manufactures which are short. For every credit they are short, other manufactures are fined 5000$.*



Explain to me why GM/Ford (or anyone) would pay *6 times* the cost of a fine, to avoid paying said fine? You're straight out looney tunes if you think that happened. And stop side stepping the fact that Tesla only gets these credits in a very limited number of states. It's not a federal subsidy, and it certainly doesn't apply to their non-US business.




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *So basically every S model they roll off they are getting a $32,500 to $47,500 kickback. And even with all that extra money coming in, they can barely turn a profit.*



 :ROFL!:   :facepalm:  I love how you took the one blog article on the whole of the internets that provides the largest 100% pure guess of what Tesla is selling the credits for, *AND THEN ADDED $12,500 to it.* Nice fucking gorilla math there Einstein.  :facepalm: 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *The only way for Tesla to survive is to capitalize on things that actually make them money.... cars is not one of them.*



O RLY? What do they make money on then? Please, enlighten me. Surely it can't be the credits, because of course, those come from making cars. Obviously you're talking about some other magical unicorn source of revenue that nobody else knows about. _Fill us all in oh wise one._




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Similar to above, they may make cars... but it isn't what makes them money. They were bleeding money when they were just throwing electric car drive-trains into an existing Lotus chassis... so how can you possibly expect they can cost effectively produce cars themselves?*



_Yea, that makes sense..._ No, they don't make money on cars. It only accounts for 87% of their revenue. But hey, they don't make money on them. I mean, they have a 22% gross margin, and have been sold out since they launched, but no, they don't make money on them. Jesus. How does this kind of logic fly here? Do you know anything about business? Just because the business isn't posting Apple caliber net profits doesn't mean the business is failing. It's very common for newer businesses to post losses as they pickup speed. It's done intentionally to reinvest capital into the business and fuel growth. Tesla is dumping over 25% of revenue into R&D for christ sake. *Facebook wasn't profitable until Q3 2009! Now their market cap is 113 billion.* It's not even unusal for an up and coming company to not show profits early on, it's actually the norm. 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *IMO when the money runs out and the party is over, we will look back on this not unlike Bre-X. Investors who got sucked into the hype and lost everything looking for somebody to blame.*



You're an idiot. Sorry, not going to be nice about it, that's just plain dumb and you're dumb for saying it. This is nothing like Bre-X. Even your cronies who are coming to your defense won't agree with you there. Were you even old enough to know what was going on during the Bre-X scandal? Bre-X was pure fraud, in an industry that is highly speculative. It went to zero because there was nothing behind the company, it was vapour. *It is NOTHING like Tesla. Tesla makes real products and has real sales.* To even imply they are similar is *pure* stupidity. All of your arguments lose credibility because of how dumb your Bre-X analogy is.  :facepalm:

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by rx7_turbo2_ 
> *Well if UndrgroundRider didn't know what an &quot;owning&quot; was before the post above should clear things up
> 
> Although I'm guessing it won't*



Uhhh, that's not an owning. This is an owning.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by rx7_turbo2_ 
> *Well if UndrgroundRider didn't know what an &quot;owning&quot; was before the post above should clear things up
> 
> Although I'm guessing it won't*



Another successful prediction by me :Clap:  

Like I said, rational thought, sound analysis? Not needed when you're hanging from Elon's ball sack.

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> First 
> Directly from the article you referenced:
> 
> 
> So Tesla wasn't able to disprove it, they just don't like the fact the public was told how much the credits were for. There was no &quot;de-bunking&quot;.... just moaning.
> *



They were basing their information on *2009* financial statements and PURE GUESSES of what they were selling the credits for. Tesla came right out and told them they were wrong, misrepresenting facts by using 4-year old financials and provided actual solid current information backed by hard numbers.




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * Also Wired VS Forbes for credibility? Really?*



 :ROFL!:  That's just too good. I'm crying. My sides are hurting. I'm reeling from the irony. Do you realize the Wired page I linked to is a *statement* made by *Tesla* to respond to a Wired article that is the *basis for your Forbes article*? Are you trying to discredit Wired? Good for you I guess, because it has nothing to do with any of my arguments (although it is the basis for yours  :ROFL!:  ). Unlike you, all of my information has been backed by financial data from the SEC filings and statements that were actually made by Tesla.





> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *They are a public company, they have to disclose their financials... this is nothing new. Just like Bre-X did.*



Hey! Great argument. Super job. _Tesla and Bre-X are the same because they're both required to disclose their financials._  :facepalm: 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *I didn't say that they were paying 6 times the fine, or even as much as the fine... I was pointing out they get more than 1 credit per car and they sell them for a profit that works out to between 25K to 35K per car. This is not my number, that was provided in the Forbes article.*




 :facepalm:  Actually, you did say... Here you go:




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> For every credit they are short, other manufactures are fined *5000$.* 
> 
> ....
> 
> So how much are they making on credits exactly?
> 
> Tesla sells credits for as much as *$35,000* each time it rings the register on a new Model S sedan.



Sorry, I guess it was 7 times.  :ROFL!:   :facepalm: 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Yes... I added the two lows, and two highs of two completely separate credit systems which is perfectly logical to get the total range. Also Einstein was also known to have failed math, so your sarcastic insult is not really that great.*



Hahaha.  :ROFL!:  I don't know where to begin with this one. Ok yes, I do. You're an IDIOT. *Einstein did not fail math. That was a myth propagated by idiots* who like to feel better about themselves for failing math. It is also a great example of the bar room quality of your knowledge on these matters. 

Second, the *federal tax credit goes to the consumer! That $7,500 is an income tax credit the buyer gets.* And all this time you've been including this in your margin numbers? No wonder you're so out to lunch. There's only 1 credit that Tesla gets directly and can resell to other manufacturers. That's the ZEV credit. The actual value of this credit is less than $5000.

Third, only your gorilla math can get you from $5000 in ZEV credits to $47,500. That's just stupid. How does anyone buy your shit on this forum? By the way, the $35,000 number on Forbes already had the federal and state level credits added into one number. Why you thought you should then add the federal ($7500) and state ($5000) credits into that number again is beyond reason.




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *The rest of your post is sort of a rant about how I compare Tesla to Bre-X... yes it is a stretch, but it is my opinion. If you were around for when Bre-X was taking off, there were many people just like you vigorously defending them.*



Was I around?!? Were you!?! It was *TOTALLY* different than Tesla in a *completely* different market. And again, that was a totally different scenario. Bre-X was pre-revenue, and in an industry that is high-risk due to the inherent speculative nature of it. Bre-X would've turned out WAY differently if the core samples were legitimate. They were 100% fraudulent, hence the scandal. Just because there's speculation regarding a given stock doesn't mean we should write it off as the next Bre-X. Is this your first day? This shit happens all the time.

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by rx7_turbo2_ 
> * 
> 
> Another successful prediction by me 
> 
> Like I said, rational thought, sound analysis? Not needed when you're hanging from Elon's ball sack.*





What thread are you reading?!? The only ball sack loving going on here is between you and Sugar.

----------


## supe

The fact is Tesla hit 22% gross margin without any ZEV credits. They are targeting 25% for q4 and still they can't make these cars fast enough. Regarding ZEV credits, this is a government policy aimed to promote a better means of travel. Tesla is that. The fact that they make money from it is actually what the program is there for. Sure the credits boosted their bottom line, especially through their ramp up phase, but Tesla is past that now. 

Rx7 your comments are just trolling, you're offering nothing meaningful.

Sugarphreak, your bre-x comparison is so out of whack. Bre-x was a complete fraud in every way. Tesla makes and sells cars, real cars, in fact maybe the best car ever made. In the short term, I'm sure statistically there will be more fires, the stock will probably bounce around. But I can't wait for the Model X, likely it will garner all the same accolades like the Model S did, and probably even more. 

I don't know what your vendetta is against Elon but I don't think you give the guy enough credit, if any credit at all. I do believe that Elon is out to make the world a better place and he has a track record of making money while doing it. Its not an accident he is Fortune's Businessperson of the year.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *The fact is Tesla hit 22% gross margin without any ZEV credits. They are targeting 25% for q4 and still they can't make these cars fast enough.*



So what you're telling me is they can't scale up?

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> So what you're telling me is they can't scale up?*



I get your point and its a very real perspective, but I think its a bit different in the automotive world which is a VERY slow moving machine. 

Tesla has a plan they always have, and if you read that plan from 10 years ago, they are on the mark to a tee. High cost low volume, mid cost mid volume, then low cost high volume. How many years does it take from design to production? By the time any major competitor comes out with something compelling Tesla will be light years ahead. Further the mere fact that they do push out EV's would only further promote Tesla's cars.

The only way I see Tesla failing is if consumers flat out reject EV's and some other technology takes its place. ICE will go away.

----------


## you&me

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> So what you're telling me is they can't scale up?*



You don't think there could also be a marketing slant in the limited supply? Demand begets demand. 

Look at Ferrari (as a company; not comparing the actual cars). They could likely sell 2-3X as many cars as they currently do, but limiting the availability is good for the brand (though not necessarily the company). 

Of course, there would be some balance required between intentionally limiting supply, production and cost of expansion (and the affect that would have on the other aspects of their business). I take it that someone who's better at math than me has already considered all of this.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by you&amp;me_ 
> *You don't think there could also be a marketing slant in the limited supply? Demand begets demand. 
> 
> Look at Ferrari (as a company; not comparing the actual cars). They could likely sell 2-3X as many cars as they currently do, but limiting the availability is good for the brand (though not necessarily the company). 
> 
> Of course, there would be some balance required between intentionally limiting supply, production and cost of expansion (and the affect that would have on the other aspects of their business). I take it that someone who's better at math than me has already considered all of this.*



I don't disagree. But we're talking about valuation here, and (at the time) a boutique manufacturer being worth as much as a mass manufacturer.

You can't blur the lines between a good product/company vs valuation of the company.

----------


## you&me

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> I don't disagree. But we're talking about valuation here, and (at the time) a boutique manufacturer being worth as much as a mass manufacturer.
> 
> You can't blur the lines between a good product/company vs valuation of the company.*



That's the ideal and if that's how you invest, then it's great for you. However, and it can be seen time and time again, there is usually way too much emotion in investing and that can lead to valuations that are far removed from where they should be if based purely on the numbers. 

I know what you're saying. The question is whether Tesla can maintain the mystic and keep wowing investors with new "ideas" while their actual profit generating business catches up.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by you&amp;me_ 
> *That's the ideal and if that's how you invest, then it's great for you. However, and it can be seen time and time again, there is usually way too much emotion in investing and that can lead to valuations that are far removed from where they should be if based purely on the numbers.*



Yup, hence playing with fire in these cases. You can make a lot of coin riding that wave if you're lucky.

I guess looking at TSLA today, the realization that it was overpriced is happening at a pretty damn rapid pace. 194 to 120 in what 8 weeks?

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * You can't blur the lines between a good product/company vs valuation of the company.*



 This sentence could sum up the entire thread.

----------


## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *
> 
> Rx7 your comments are just trolling, you're offering nothing meaningful.
> 
> *



At least you understand the difference between "trolling" and "owning"

If I started posting it would literally be the exact same things Sugar has said, they don't need to be said again. Shit he's said them three times and still can't seem to put a dent in the "Elon Blinders" some of you are wearing.

I had a giant diatribe written out, fuck it, it's not worth it. It's already been said, again, and again, and again. 

So instead? Tesla rocks! The company has developed the worlds greatest car, we will look back at the model S as the car that started a revolution, and bow before the feet of Elon Musk as the revolutions masterful architect, and we shall thank him for generous gift to us all!!!

Most likely though? This entire thing will crash and burn, and 20 years from now some dude will say to another dude "remember Elon Musk?" "Oh ya that crazy fuck with the tube idea?" "Ya whatever happened to him"

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rx7_turbo2

:Smilie:

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Really what I can't figure out is why small turbines havent been implemented yet, they have much higher efficiency than conventional gas engines and can be kept at optimum RPM to generate power... if I was a car manufacturer, this is where I would be doing R&amp;D!*



Another great book recommendation, Chrysler's Turbine Car: The Rise and Fall of Detroit's Coolest Creation. Talks a lot about the turbine engine and how far it got back in the day.

If I remember right, the downfall was EPA guidelines for emissions that targeted ICE and made it impossible for turbines to work within those guidelines.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I believe that Jaguar had a concept not that long ago with turbines.*



The original C-X75 concept has turbine hybrid.

The current C-X75 concept is back to ICE hybrid like Porsche 918.

----------


## UndrgroundRider

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Once again, your referenced source doesnt even back up the claims being made they distanced themselves from it with a disclaimer and made it clear it was Teslas statement.*



Are you slow? My source isn't "wired" proper, it's the Tesla statement which is posted on Wired. The editor's note has nothing to do with the statement at all, it's Wired's way of saying they weren't technically wrong so they're not going to retract anything. If it turned out that Tesla was lying then there would be huge SEC fines, law suits, and the stock price would plummet. 




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *They went onto say in that disclaimer that Tesla didnt exactly mention specifics to back up their claims oh and they back up their article from before which actually supports what Forbes said.*



WHAT? Tesla consistently referenced hard numbers from their S-1 filing and specifically stated that ZEV credit sales accounts for only 13% of their gross margin today. And the editor's note never claimed that the Tesla response was baseless, only that it didn't technically point out any errors in their earlier wired article.




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *As for an ambiguous statement coming from Telsa that has no specifics in it, you are going to take that over hard evidence? Gee Ive never heard of a company making a broad sweeping statement to make themselves look good, that never happens.*



What article did you read?!? Tesla gave many specifics. One of which indicated that in 2013 Q2 (the most recent quarter at the time), ZEV credit sales accounted for only $0.5 million in revenue or 13% of their gross margin. *All of this nonsense about accounting for the bulk of their gross margin is PURE misrepresentation. These people making these claims are basing their data off of Tesla's financials from 2009, literally 4 years ago.*




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *You can disagree with my Bre-X reference all you want, but I am of the opinion that it will be more relevant in a couple years from now when all of this ambiguity with Tesla starts to shake out.
> 
> As for the rest of your rant / insult / nonsense I am just going to dismiss it. People who resort to name calling to try and make their point are generally trying to save face because they are wrong, and that is all I can think reading your post. Supe for instance has put up some great points, yours are not presented clearly and you dont address facts and references given by others.*



Dude, nobody agrees with your Bre-X analogy... because it makes zero sense. You're on your own on that one.

As for the rest of it, I love how you conveniently just ignore all of the arguments where you were utterly crushed and just move on to try something else.  :ROFL!:

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> To me they are still trying to prove that electric cars are economically viable, and looking at it with a fresh perspective... yes they can get the power range, but as of yet the manufacturing cost is really not where it needs to be and charging times are not ideal.*



As for manufacturing costs, you aren't addressing the fact that they hit 22% gross margin without ZEV. As I understand they aren't profitable (gaap) because they are dumping money back into R&D and things like building the supercharger network. As a growth company I don't see whats wrong with that.

As far charging times, you charge at home, never have to wait a fueling stating ever again. Further if you use the supercharger network it takes time, but its free, tough to complain about free.




> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> My beef with Elon is that I think he is a character fraud he trying to show the world he is going to change it for the better, that he is doing this in some selfless effort for humanity and spitting in the face of big oil. I dont buy it, not for a second. 
> 
> IMO it is a marketing gimmick, and he is buying his way into these awards and recognitions by throwing around huge sums of money that isn't his. In my mind he is far worse than many businessmen who are openly perceived as evil. Right now he is sitting on a lot of investor money, and if he isnt everything he has made himself to be, those people are going to lose it all.
> *



This is all personal speculation. At a high level it sure sounds like he has good intentions for humanity. He has personally wired every last dollar to bail out Tesla at its low peak. Elon has also personally guaranteed with his own money, every Model S lease, would he do that if he was a fraud? 

The second paragraph you can say about any CEO, Elon just happens to be bolder than most.

----------


## supe

Little bump today 12%, only news I can find is german auto authority rules Tesla's pose no fire threat. 

http://allthingsd.com/20131203/tesla.../?mod=atdtweet

----------


## supe

Some interesting events from Tesla Motors today. 

At the Detroit auto show Tesla announced that they delivered 6900 vehicles up from 6000 from their projection from last quarter. 

Almost at the same time Tesla announced that they would provide updated software and a new adapter which would prevent a possible garage fire. The media termed this as a 'recall' even though no physical cars are actually being recalled. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4596414.html

Shortly after Baird upgrades the stock and Tesla releases a statement saying they have beat revenue guidance by 20%.

http://www.teslamotors.com/about/pre...fourth-quarter

Net result stock up 10% at $154.

----------


## ZAV

Someone asked about small gas turbine generators... they already make them. Look up Capstone microturbines. I've heard of them used for small industrial applications as an alternative to a diesel generator, particularly out in some remote location where gas is readily available and easier than trucking in diesel for refueling.

It seems that they even have a model specifically for onboard charging of hybrid vehicles. Not sure if it's just for commercial vehicles or not... but the technology exists.
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prods...utions/hev.asp

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

Tesla has just announced that it will be raising 1.6 B to build what they're calling a Gigafactory. When complete in 2020, it will be able to supply 500k EV's worth of batteries, which is also more than the total current output of batteries produced today. Bold.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/gigafactory

Stock price just keeps going up, AH $258.

----------


## faiz999

is it possible that this stock hits 300 before the end of the year

----------


## rage2

Analysts seems to think it'll hit 320 by Q4. Still crazy overvaluation, but hey, if the public supports it why not? The loss gap isn't closing as fast as it should seeing as sales doubled quarter vs quarter, and there's still no word on scaling up production (other than a battery factory) to meet the demand. Only thing in the letter to investors this quarter was that expenses will rise sharply on growth, which is going to widen the loss gap even further.

Crazy to see the stock price though TBH. They're at 53% market cap of GM, 51% of Ford.  :Shock:

----------


## faiz999

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *Analysts seems to think it'll hit 320 by Q4. Still crazy overvaluation, but hey, if the public supports it why not? The loss gap isn't closing as fast as it should seeing as sales doubled quarter vs quarter, and there's still no word on scaling up production (other than a battery factory) to meet the demand. Only thing in the letter to investors this quarter was that expenses will rise sharply on growth, which is going to widen the loss gap even further.
> 
> Crazy to see the stock price though TBH. They're at 53% market cap of GM, 51% of Ford. *



well, from elon's history, i suspect a major manufactuer is going to buy out tesla sooner or later. i'm just wondering, since i missed the gravy train from 70-250, maybe I can get on at 250 to 400~?

i agree its an inflated evaluation tho, which is why i was hesitant to buy any when it fell to 120 last year. now i feel like i should have risked taking some option plays on it.

----------


## rage2

No manufacturer would buy out Tesla at the current price. It's literally corporate suicide. A lot of the price jump came from last year's rumors of Apple buying Tesla, which is even more ridiculous if you step back and look at it.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## faiz999

i heard that Elon's contract with tesla includes a stipulation that tesla must have the same market cap as GM, for him to fully realize his stock options. Not sure if true but figured someone here might be able to confirm/deny

----------


## HiTempguy1

http://ecomento.com/2014/02/26/tesla...car-landscape/

----------


## civic_stylez

I just made a tidy little bundle on a short sell of tesla. I think people are catching on to the over valuation. Its a slimy way to make money betting on stock and companies essentially dropping in value but I had a feeling it was going to happen.

Started at $248.59
Short sell at $197.30

----------


## ercchry

hrmmm.... i see a shift to the maintenance/powering side of the business coming up

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-...are-belong-you

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *Analysts seems to think it'll hit 320 by Q4. Still crazy overvaluation, but hey, if the public supports it why not?*



Well I guess the analysts were wrong. Tesla has been on a month long slide, down to currently $204 a share. Wonder if oil prices has anything to do with it. I'm not market savvy enough to figure out why.

Anyways, figured I'd bump this post since I recently had a chance to test drive two Tesla S's, and I went in with an open mind looking to see if it would be something I would buy for myself, and make it work with my lifestyle. I even brought a non car guy friend with me to see what his thoughts were (they mimic'd mine). In summary, I think it would work for my lifestyle, but I still would not buy one.

I drove both the 60 and the 85. The 60 was out of the question. With my driving style, I would easily run it out of power on the weekends, based on the on board computer estimate of 100km's. The 85, with more capacity, estimated my driving style at 160km on a full charge. Doable.

I gotta say though, the drivetrain is top notch. It drives like any other car, and the most noticeable difference is the 0 rpm torque. Once off the line though, the 85 pretty much felt like it had the same seat of the pants performance as my CLS550. That's the positives.

Some of the weird stuff, I mentioned this briefly in the electric heater thread, the Tesla S is a cold car to drive. It wasn't even a particularly cold day that I drove it in (around 7C), but it took forever for any heat to come out, which was signaled by a strong electric burning smell where we thought we had broke the car. A solid 20 minutes later, the car was at a comfortable temperature. Another interesting tidbit, all of the switchgear (turn signal/wiper control, column shifter, window controls, seat adjustment) was all from the Mercedes-Benz parts bin. Kinda neat, it felt very at home for me. Driving the car, it felt 90% like a normal car, except when you let off the gas. It has 3x the engine braking of a normal car. I think Tesla purposely did this to optimize charging or something. Felt really strange, but on the screen it says it's charging. I barely used the brakes because of this.

And now, onto the negatives. The interior is atrocious. I had no idea, but after some googling, many Tesla owners reports the same thing. The leather work is spotty, stitching all over the place, and overall, I'd say an entry level GM leather interior is leaps and bounds nicer than the Tesla interior. The plastics look beyond cheap, and the minimalist interior with zero buttons just didn't do it for me. The screen, I'm not sure how it passes compliance, as you can browse the internet on it, which after checking out a few sites reveals how terrible quality it is. The color/contrast is terrible, it's as bad as a cheap Android tablet out of China. Then there's the seats. For a sporty car, there is zero support, and it's not really comfortable. It reminds me of shitty SUV/truck seats. Bleh.

Pricing the car out, with the basic necessities, and the dual chargers so I could fully charge the car overnight, works out to $106k. It's literally a $106k car with a $40k car interior. Could not live with that. Honestly, with what the Tesla S is today, I would maybe pay $70k for the 85D, making it 30-40k overpriced. With a proper interior that matches quality of its competition, I would pay 90k for it.

So yea, that's my experience with the Tesla S. Cool car in execution, but it's not a luxury car in my books. My friend that I had brought with me, who's a luxo-SUV guy, pretty much had the same feedback, except he was even more critical of the interior than I was.

Bringing things back on topic, the Tesla S is still a niche car today. I'll bet people that buys cars in this price range will take one look at that interior, and walk away without even bothering to test drive the car. It's kind of disappointing, as I don't think bringing up the interior quality to luxury car standards would cost Tesla a lot of money. They're already using expensive materials (leather everywhere), and other manufacturers have got plastics right, making it cheap yet look expensive. The only people I can see realistically buying a Tesla today would be tech geeks/early adopters, and Silicon Valley execs.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> 
> 
> And now, onto the negatives. The interior is atrocious. I had no idea, but after some googling, many Tesla owners reports the same thing. The leather work is spotty, stitching all over the place, and overall, I'd say an entry level GM leather interior is leaps and bounds nicer than the Tesla interior. The plastics look beyond cheap, and the minimalist interior with zero buttons just didn't do it for me. The screen, I'm not sure how it passes compliance, as you can browse the internet on it, which after checking out a few sites reveals how terrible quality it is. The color/contrast is terrible, it's as bad as a cheap Android tablet out of China. Then there's the seats. For a sporty car, there is zero support, and it's not really comfortable. It reminds me of shitty SUV/truck seats. Bleh.
> *



I couldn't agree more on the interior. It felt VERY GM. As if Tesla at the last minute asked its designers to copy the VOLT interior  :dunno:  . Designed by tech nerds not car guys.

I wont comment on the drivability as we just looked into it at the Fashion show mall showroom that was set up.

The range thing is a huge problem as well. We were looking at them down in Phoenix and we never made it to the test drive stage as the Numbers just didn't add up. Huge expensive retrofits to a newly renovated garage to accommodate charging as you mentioned. And in Phoenix considering the size of the city i could drive 300+ km a day there if i am going to Glendale or Peoria etc. All with the AC at max 6 months a year.

It just doesn't work and combine that with a horrible interior...

Also not impressed to hear that it isnt leaps and bounds better on acceleration than a cls550. The CLS is really good. But should be trounced by a Tesla on specs...

Anyways in before Supe accuses me of stifling the future. :Sleep ZzZZ:

----------


## rage2

OK so talking to my buddy, apparently we test drove a 60 and a P85 (now replaced with the P85D), so my acceleration comparison is for a car that's not available for purchase anymore, but it was about $10k more expensive than the quotes we got, which is just a standard 85. The standard 85 is also slower than the P85.

And ya, I didn't account for the extra cost to install the dual wall chargers in the garage. As for the interior, no review ever mentioned how bad it was. I was blown away.

edit - then there's the charging costs. Each charger runs at 10kW, so dual chargers 20kW, and approx. 3 hours of charge per day based on my driving style and distance, 60kWh per day, or 1800kWh per month. That works out to $150 a month in electricity at current rates. I spend about $240/month on gas on 1 car before the prices dropped, so that's a savings of $90/month if I replaced my CLS550 with a Tesla S 85.

----------


## ercchry

i hate this stock  :Whipped:

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Well I guess the analysts were wrong. Tesla has been on a month long slide, down to currently $204 a share. Wonder if oil prices has anything to do with it. I'm not market savvy enough to figure out why.*



Oil prices had dash hopes that other companies uses Tesla's tech (free) which is what the gigafactory's future is pinned on to provide batteries to everyone who signs on. Right now it's only in the B class EV has Tesla's tech and that was in development long before Mercedes cashed in it's investment and all sign it's only for California's EV market.

Then Elon prematurely saying BMW is working with Tesla which BMW later denied.

It's clear that Tesla has quality issues that will take many years and many auto sector know-how to fix. 

Tesla jump started the revolution and forces existing car companies to be more aggressive towards EV and hybrid. Tesla itself will have to burn a lot more cash to be a good car company.




> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *And ya, I didn't account for the extra cost to install the dual wall chargers in the garage. As for the interior, no review ever mentioned how bad it was. I was blown away.*



Everyone is too distracted by everything else. I sat in one in Miami and thinking that's a $40K car interior tops.

Now everyone is more bullish on EVs, wait til Audi bring their interior with a EV drivetrain and watch Tesla stock drops more.

----------


## supe

Financially Tesla is always going to be under a ton of pressure until they can actually make real money. The only way to get there is to prove that EV's are the future. If EV's start to take marketshare from vehicles sold Tesla will be in a healthy place long term. Short term this stock will bounce all over. Good news will sky rocket this stock while bad news or lack of news brings it down. 

As far as the car goes, keep in mind cost of ownership is much lower than ICE cars. I'm totally ball-parking but after 10 years a 100k car is about 75k. Admittedly this is still high but still significant. However, part of the reason for this savings is you never have to visit a gas station again. I don't think the benefit of this should be overlooked, thats 10 mins a week (minimum) times the rest of your life. Second, I don't know about you but I hate taking my car to be serviced. There was a story of one of the original owners finally taking his car to be serviced for the first time, but the only reason he needed to was to get his tires replaced. Further, its yet to be fully realized, but in theory a Tesla having less moving parts, will have less parts breaking and needing replacement. 

Regarding the interior, I think Tesla understands that they can't realistically nor financially compete on being the best in every category. I also agree that the fit and finish of the Tesla isn't great but its not that bad either. I believe they did upgrade the seats which was a big complaint, for the D series. Instead I think they chose to win their battles else where, like safety, cargo space, performance etc.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> * 
> It's clear that Tesla has quality issues that will take many years and many auto sector know-how to fix. 
> 
> Tesla jump started the revolution and forces existing car companies to be more aggressive towards EV and hybrid. Tesla itself will have to burn a lot more cash to be a good car company.
> 
> Now everyone is more bullish on EVs, wait til Audi bring their interior with a EV drivetrain and watch Tesla stock drops more.*



Explain to me how a brand new car company made motor trends car of the year and according to Consumer Reports, the highest ranked car ever. You have tough standards for what makes a good car company.

When or if Audi makes an EV, where do you think they will get their batteries from? What charging network are they going to use? These are really important questions.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Mibz

Anybody have stats on repeat purchasers? I'd like to know how many people have bought a Tesla after owning one for a year or more.

Note to supe: I said stats, not speculation. You dropped a lot of pretend a couple posts up and I'm not interested in that.

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *When or if Audi makes an EV, where do you think they will get their batteries from? What charging network are they going to use? These are really important questions.*



Same place where BMW sources it? Tesla is not the only player in the game. Nissan is about to release a new battery that cost and weight the same but with 2x kwh. Did Tesla announced anything similar in the pipeline?

Why do I have to source battery from Tesla when its competitors got more promising products with earlier delivery time?

As for charging, there are a lot of city sponsored charging stations in California and a few selected German cities. Sure they don't have the super charger tech but even 240V @ 40A for 1 hr should get you home to your home charger.

Tesla as a whole is a great ambassador to EV and it's pushing the tech forward. But as a car maker, it sucks.

----------


## supe

I'm not saying that Audi or anyone has to source their batteries from Tesla, but its still a worthwhile question to think about. Tesla had to build the worlds biggest battery plant to create batteries for the few cars they make because the world simply doesn't make enough. How is Audi possibly going to get their batteries? Now if you were to buy batteries, would you go create your own 'giga factory' or would you simply just pay the guy that just made the worlds biggest plant. Just saying.

The same argument goes for the super charger network.

Tesla is building out a framework for all EV's, this is particularly evident by opening all their patents. If EV's succeed, Tesla will succeed.

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I'm not saying that Audi or anyone has to source their batteries from Tesla, but its still a worthwhile question to think about. Tesla had to build the worlds biggest battery plant to create batteries for the few cars they make because the world simply doesn't make enough. How is Audi possibly going to get their batteries? Now if you were to buy batteries, would you go create your own 'giga factory' or would you simply just pay the guy that just made the worlds biggest plant. Just saying.
> 
> The same argument goes for the super charger network.
> 
> Tesla is building out a framework for all EV's, this is particularly evident by opening all their patents. If EV's succeed, Tesla will succeed.*



Gigafactory's fall back would be batteries for other uses. Since Tesla's pack is backed on Panasonic AA batteries, the surplus can always goes to other products that needs Li-Ion cells.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Explain to me how a brand new car company made motor trends car of the year and according to Consumer Reports, the highest ranked car ever. You have tough standards for what makes a good car company.*



It's called jumping to conclusions. That and the rating was based on owners surveys, and with so many fanboys I'm not surprised. Even Consumer Reports have had tons of problems with their car. 

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...lems/index.htm

And at $600+ for a yearly service, that's twice as expensive than a Mercedes service, where most of the cost is the oil, which the Tesla doesn't use.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Mibz_ 
> *Anybody have stats on repeat purchasers? I'd like to know how many people have bought a Tesla after owning one for a year or more.
> 
> Note to supe: I said stats, not speculation. You dropped a lot of pretend a couple posts up and I'm not interested in that.*



I don't think you will find stats on repeat purchases, not yet anyway. But here is a similar report. 

Tesla Tops Consumer Satisfaction Index, Again. This not speculation.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...on-index-again

----------


## killramos

Ahh I dont tink anyone else on beyond so blindly clings to a ridiculous concept more than supe. And I am including Toma and Arash in that statement.

Why he hasn't Heloc'ed a Tesla yet is beyond me  :dunno:  

If i wanted an aston nearly as much as he has a hard on for Tesla thats what i would do  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

He's waiting on the Model X.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *Ahh I dont tink anyone else on beyond so blindly clings to a ridiculous concept more than supe. And I am including Toma and Arash in that statement.
> 
> Why he hasn't Heloc'ed a Tesla yet is beyond me  
> 
> If i wanted an aston nearly as much as he has a hard on for Tesla thats what i would do *



Put your money where you mouth is and short the stock then. I've been in since 60, I'll admit I've pulled out most by now but more so because of the overall market. Having said that, I'm not ready to put myself in debt to buy a tesla. I want one.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> Put your money where you mouth is and short the stock then. I've been in since 60, I'll admit I've pulled out most by now but more so because of the overall market. Having said that, I'm not ready to put myself in debt to buy a tesla. I want one.*



I don't like Toyotas either but that doesn't mean i think its a good idea to short their stock.  :ROFL!:  

I don't think Tesla is going under lo, they are just overvalued and seeing the relevant correction, I have great faith that idiots will continue to buy their cars for no good reason  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * I don't think you will find stats on repeat purchases, not yet anyway. But here is a similar report. 
> 
> Tesla Tops Consumer Satisfaction Index, Again. This not speculation.
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...on-index-again*



 The day you stop using Consumer Reports as a legitimate source of automotive information is the day I might start taking some things you say seriously. It's impossible to give your words any weight when you throw CR around. They're like JD Power but less thorough.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by Mibz_ 
> * The day you stop using Consumer Reports as a legitimate source of automotive information is the day I might start taking some things you say seriously. It's impossible to give your words any weight when you throw CR around. They're like JD Power but less thorough.*



Consumer Reports is to him, as Youtube is to Arash. It fuels and justifies his delusions. :Love:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by 01RedDX_ 
> * 
> 
> So anyone who buys a Tesla is an idiot to you?*



Yes




> _Originally posted by 01RedDX_ 
> * 
> well-off people who want something different?*



Potatoe - Potahtoe

That expression doesn't work nearly as well on beyond as IRL  :Cry:  

If you are rich buy a Fisker, much better car, just as hipster.

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *^^ I always thought that was the other way around; that Consumer Reports doesn't take any funding from industry, while JD basically whores themselves out to auto makers?
> 
> Also, Consumer Reports is currently blasting Tesla for shitty quality*



 Both use consumer surveys with black and white questions which are useless and never tell the whole story. If they'd published a report saying Teslas were lemons because 90% of owners answered Yes to "Has your car had any issues?" then I'd be saying the same thing.

If you honestly think asking people "I noticed you spent 6-figures on this really hyped vehicle, would you do it again?" is going to give you honest and accurate responses then go ahead and link it. Put it on the banner you carry. But don't expect everybody to agree with you.

That's why I want to know how many people ACTUALLY bought another one, not how many people claim they might buy another one.




> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> * If you are rich buy a Fisker, much better car, just as hipster.*



 Way more hipster, they don't even exist anymore.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by Mibz_ 
> * they don't even exist anymore.*



Neither do Enzo's. If you are really rich that wont be a problem for you.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *I have to say, I've been thinking about it, and I am pretty sure a Tesla is about twice as douchey as a Lambo*

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by 01RedDX_ 
> * 
> OK then. Any more blanket statements? Because they totally help your credibility, Bimmer boy.*



Another well thought out and mature argument by 01RedDX  :thumbs up:  

Just in case anyone didn't know that Red was so apt to point out:

Hi my name is killramos, I drive a BMW and and I am Male  :dunno:  

I'm just going to accept your point of view now i don't know what I was thinking.

Grow up.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by 01RedDX_ 
> *Wow, I've driven the CLS550, so that's pretty impressive for an all-electric vehicle. Something like this was unthinkable even 5 short years ago. The Tesla exterior beats the CLS in looks though.*



Yea, I was impressed at how it drove. It just sucks that my driving style really kills the range on the Tesla. If I had a lot of running around to do in a day, I'd have to drive it differently to stretch out the mileage. I'd like to try it again on a colder day like today to see what range really looks like, but it's impossible to get a test drive in Calgary since there are no Tesla stores here.

In terms of exterior, I would say it looks better than the current E class. I can't really make the CLS comparison, as I like 4 door coupes over sedans.

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * I can't really make the CLS comparison, as I like 4 door coupes over sedans.*



 This is you sneakily admitting that the Tesla looks better.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by Mibz_ 
> * This is you sneakily admitting that the Tesla looks better.*



Well then just to be clear, I prefer the looks of the CLS over the Tesla S. I just thought it would be unfair to the Tesla to make that comparison.

----------


## supe

Here is an interesting testimonial for the Model S by Christian von Koenigsegg




> He reportedly said that there was no better car than the Tesla Model S in its price range and that it was very affordable given its performance.



http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ive-than-an-m5

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Here is an interesting testimonial for the Model S by Christian von Koenigsegg
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ive-than-an-m5*



What does he care? you can have a garage full of teslas and a supercharger network between your house and the office for the price of one of his cars...

And comparing performance of the 2011 M5 (which was top of its game when it came out) to the 2014 P85D  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Wait for the G-body based M5 to come out in the next 18 months.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> * 
> 
> What does he care? you can have a garage full of teslas and a supercharger network between your house and the office for the price of one of his cars...
> 
> And comparing performance of the 2011 M5 (which was top of its game when it came out) to the 2014 P85D  
> 
> Wait for the G-body based M5 to come out in the next 18 months.*



If you want to talk irrational, I swear you have a bigger angst against tesla, even more than I like it.

He cares, read the article. Simple as that. He has a voice, an authoritative voice in the automotive market. Accept it. 

And FYI, it wasn't even the P85D just P85. And if you want to compare the P85 (non D) to the M5, no chance if it was the D. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4

----------


## rage2

http://www.breitbart.com/california/...mmets-on-loss/




> *Tesla Blows through Cash; Stock Plummets on Loss*
> 
> Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) stock price plunged by -7.4% in premarket trading on Thursday after the company announced that deliveries had fallen short, problems had affected production, and a strong dollar had hurt earnings. Those earnings turned out to be a real stinker, with Tesla posting a loss of -$0.13 a share, after steering analysts to expect a profit.
> 
> With the company hemorrhaging cash, CEO Elon Musk bizarrely predicted Teslas market value in ten years would equal Apples (NASDAQ:AAPL) $700 billion market cap.
> 
> You have to give credit to Musk for extreme hutzpah. Despite SEC investor protection requirements that companies listed on stock exchanges follow what are called Generally Accepted Accounting Policies (GAAP) in reporting financial results, Tesla reports on a non-GAAP basis and gets away with it.
> 
> This bit of accounting magic helped Tesla turn a GAAP loss of -$74.7 million, or -$.60 per share in the third quarter into a non-GAAP profit of +$3.2 million, or +$.02 a share. But not even a magician could have prepared the stock analysts for a 2014 fourth quarter non-GAAP loss of -$42.3 million, or -$0.13 a share. The GAAPcompliant loss was stunning: -$107.6 million, or -$0.86 per share.
> ...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *I saw this coming a million miles away... they are terrible with money *



So TSLA is back to pre-earnings. Million miles away hey? Genius

----------


## CanmoreOrLess

Apple and a solid partner in the auto business (Ford, Toyota, Nissan?) need to get this deal done and buy control of Tesla. Short the stock if any geniuses really sees TSLA not making it going forward. Nothing but barn door forecasting otherwise.

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *I saw this coming a million miles away... they are terrible with money *



I doubt Tesla will make a dime on cars. Cars are loss leaders.

But they may on other ventures like the battery factory and possible in home battery banks.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by Xtrema_ 
> * 
> 
> I doubt Tesla will make a dime on cars. Cars are loss leaders.
> 
> But they may on other ventures like the battery factory and possible in home battery banks.*




Depends on how long they glam onto their main business venture of giving electricity away for free.

 :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *So TSLA is back to pre-earnings. Million miles away hey? Genius*



Thank Morgan Stanley for that one. They have them at a $280 price target, and people went crazy. Funny because they had them at a $320 target for Q4 2014 too lol.

People are crazy for this stock, it's mind bottling for sure.

----------


## rage2

bump!

Looks like 2016 is the year of the Tesla stock freefall. Dropped from $240 to $170 since Jan 1st.  :Shock: 

Feb 10th is the earnings call. Should be interesting.

----------


## killramos

Always Fantastic Customer Service from Tesla  :facepalm:  

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...el-x?CMP=fb_gu




> Unimaginable wealth has brought Elon Musk a lot of benefits, from being able to build a private spaceflight company to planning a magnet-powered vacuum tube supersonic transport system between LA and San Francisco  and be taken seriously. But perhaps the best perk of being Elon Musk is the ability to be unbelievably petty.
> 
> The Californian venture capitalist Stewart Alsop learned that to his cost, he says, after he wrote an open letter to Musk about the badly run launch event for the Tesla Motors Model X (the newest car from Musks electric vehicle startup).
> 
> Headlined Dear @ElonMusk: you should be ashamed of yourself, the letter listed Alsops issues with the event: it started late, it focused too much on safety, and it was so packed that even people like Alsop, who had placed a $5,000 deposit on the car (which was originally supposed to ship in 2013, but had only delivered 208 cars by the end of 2015), didnt get the chance to test drive it.
> 
> Alsop concluded that it would still be nice if you showed some class and apologised to the people who believe in this product.
> 
> Instead, Alsop says, Musk cancelled his pre-order.
> ...



Point out something bad about tesla online? Have your multi year pre-order cancelled and get called rude by the CEO  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *bump!
> 
> Looks like 2016 is the year of the Tesla stock freefall. Dropped from $240 to $170 since Jan 1st. 
> 
> Feb 10th is the earnings call. Should be interesting.*



Model X Falcon wing doors was a mistake that unnecessary used R&D money, delay future product and cash flow.

The fact that GM got a drivable $30K 200 mile EV and the best Tesla can do is showing a concept drawing of Model 3 in March is telling why people are losing confidence.

----------


## rage2

From the OP 2.5 years ago:



> _Originally posted by themack89_ 
> **



This morning:



What a ride haha.

----------


## Manhattan

Any investment in Tesla at this point is pure speculation. Negative price-to-earnings ratio and a price to book value of 30X. I don't know why anyone would want to invest in something like this besides giving to charity.

----------


## supe

So earnings was released. You can probably spin this 10 different ways but the short version is they lost a ton of money but they have a very aggressive outlook for 2016. The stock was up as much as 13% and is now at 152.

Model 3 is on track and will be presented in some limited form on March 31. Deposits will also be taken on the same date for 1k. First deliveries set for late 2017. 

The model X is a bit behind on its ramp up but things should be fine going forward. Reviews are starting to come out and from what I'm seeing its very positive. Shaping up to be the quickest, safest, smartest SUV in the world.

 

The Gigafactory is on pace and battery production is beginning. By the time its done, Tesla will have the number 1 and number 3 largest footprint buildings in the world, enough space to pump out 500k cars a year. Tesla's largest difficulty is its ability to scale (credit due), but to its credit, there's nothing so far impeding its path. 

Tesla's autopilot is still industry leading compared to the big boys. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...results-page-6

Tesla Energy is a HUGE wild card that can potentially completely disrupt the energy sector. 

So overall, I'm still long Tesla. Its a bumpy road but an exciting one. They are producing quality vehicles with fat margins and have lineups out the door because they can't make their cars fast enough.

Lastly regarding the up and coming Bolt. Meh. How would you drive this thing long range? Does it have an autopilot like feature? I for one will say that I'm not a fan of the styling but we'll also have to see what the Model 3 will look like. Lastly, competition in this case actually benefits Tesla, it informs consumers of what EV's are capable of and when it comes to EV's Tesla always seems to be in the discussion.

----------


## rage2

If they can't get a low volume Model X right, what makes you so certain that they'll be on target for the Model 3? It's the same old Elon promises, and I think shareholders are getting tired of it.

Your reasons that they can scale up doesn't make any sense. There isn't a battery shortage, so that's not why they can't scale up. The gigafactory is there to produce batteries for 500k cars a year cheaply. That was the reason it was built, to cut costs, not as a supply issue. Even then, there's lots of issues with the gigafactory strategy today:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4a924...def1b205c.html

Interesting that you have so much hate for the Bolt, an actual car you can sit inside in person, does everything the Model 3 is supposed to do, yet so much love for the Model 3 that isn't even unveiled yet. But to answer your questions, you would drive the Bolt long range just like you would a Tesla. There's already a network of chargers that's not Tesla out there for the rest of the world. Chargepoint runs a network that's larger than Tesla's supercharger network, and actually fills in the gaps for Tesla owners where there's no supercharger on their route. In fact, I'd say Chargepoint is the leader in the recharging segment, as they partnered with GM, VAG, BMW to create their Combo charge plug standard to try and get everyone standardized on one plug. Autopilot? I'll be blown away if Tesla is offering full on autopilot in the $30k Model 3. You're comparing the Bolt to the Model S, hardly a fair comparison.

Yes, Tesla is always in discussions when talking EVs, but so was Tivo before they rode off into the sunset.

----------


## supe

I'll agree that timing has never been a strong point of Tesla, so what, the automotive industry moves slower than tortoise speed, look how long Porsches Tesla fighter will take to hit the road (also note how its referred to as the Tesla fighter). 

But you're right the GF is there to make batteries cheaply, and probably a heck of a lot cheaper than what the competition will be sourcing their batteries for. As for scaling, its R&D. It takes time to design the car and to design and build the equipment to make the car. 

I actually admire GM for creating a respectable EV. I'm just saying, given Tesla's track record of creating exceptional cars, I have a strong suspicion that the Model 3 will be hands down miles ahead of the Bolt. 

Why do I think the Model 3 will be a success? Because the Model S has completely dominated in its class, in this case class being defined as similar priced 4 door sedans. From the earnings report, and note the decline for every other company:



I just haven't seen a compelling reason why the Model 3 won't do well.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I can give you 3 reasons:
> 
> 3) It will be a 70K eco-box when it finally hits the market
> 2) It won't actually be launched on time, it will be horribly late and in limited supply, like all Tesla's
> 1) Most important, it currently doesn't exist
> 
> ...



LOL are you upset about something?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## VWEvo

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I'll agree that timing has never been a strong point of Tesla, so what, the automotive industry moves slower than tortoise speed, look how long Porsches Tesla fighter will take to hit the road (also note how its referred to as the Tesla fighter). 
> 
> But you're right the GF is there to make batteries cheaply, and probably a heck of a lot cheaper than what the competition will be sourcing their batteries for. As for scaling, its R&amp;D. It takes time to design the car and to design and build the equipment to make the car. 
> 
> I actually admire GM for creating a respectable EV. I'm just saying, given Tesla's track record of creating exceptional cars, I have a strong suspicion that the Model 3 will be hands down miles ahead of the Bolt. 
> 
> Why do I think the Model 3 will be a success? Because the Model S has completely dominated in its class, in this case class being defined as similar priced 4 door sedans. From the earnings report, and note the decline for every other company:
> 
> ...



One of my best friends owns a 90D and is the biggest Tesla fan boy. I noticed that your posts and his posts on our Whatsapp discussion group are almost identical. I guess its safe to assume all Tesla lovers hang out on the same forum and use the same arguments. Its like a propaganda army, lol.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I'll agree that timing has never been a strong point of Tesla, so what, the automotive industry moves slower than tortoise speed*



I think you're underestimating the automotive industry. Tesla announced the Model 3 way back in 2014, scheduled unveiling in 2016, with deliveries in 2018. The Bolt (I have to go by months here because it was so quick) was unveiled in prototype form in January 2015, green lit for production in February 2015, with a production model unveiled in January 2016, with deliveries by December 2016. Doesn't look like tortoise speed to me.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I actually admire GM for creating a respectable EV. I'm just saying, given Tesla's track record of creating exceptional cars, I have a strong suspicion that the Model 3 will be hands down miles ahead of the Bolt.*



So you're comparing a car that exists today to a car that's vapourware and concluded that it'll be miles ahead. OK then.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Why do I think the Model 3 will be a success? Because the Model S has completely dominated in its class, in this case class being defined as similar priced 4 door sedans. From the earnings report, and note the decline for every other company:
> 
> 
> 
> I just haven't seen a compelling reason why the Model 3 won't do well.*



Aside from price, there is nothing in common with those cars. Try comparing to the real competition, 5 series BMW, E class Mercedes. I mean if you go and cherry pick cars for comparison that aren't in the same segment, you might as well say that Tesla destroyed the McLaren P1, La Ferrari or Porsche 918.  :crazy nut: 




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *But you're right the GF is there to make batteries cheaply, and probably a heck of a lot cheaper than what the competition will be sourcing their batteries for.*



About 30% cheaper to be exact, but there are rough times ahead for the gigafactory as I mentioned above with the lithium sourcing issues.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *As for scaling, its R&amp;D. It takes time to design the car and to design and build the equipment to make the car.*



But I thought Tesla was super fast paced compared to the tortoise pace of the traditional auto industry...  :dunno:

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *I just haven't seen a compelling reason why the Model 3 won't do well.*



Only if Model 3 is a Models S for $35K.

So far Tesla's delivery from concept to customers' hands is around 3 years. Applying the same concept and give Tesla another year of improvement, you are looking 2018 before you will ever see a 3.

By then, Chevy Bolt will already into mid model cycle refresh. 

Need I remind you that Bolt is a 200 mile car available late this year for $40K. And the only reason Tesla say they can do it for $35K is probably because Fed credit are winding down so they need to make themselves look better at least on price. 

Now I won't discount the Tesla brand factoring in. The got the Apple thing going for them. 

Tesla didn't have R&D partners on battery and I have seen nothing from them of what next gen battery tech. Gigafactory is all about building last gen batteries whenever they can get it going.

BTW, I love electric cars. Chevy Volt was on my short list of daily drivers. Unfortunately, lease residual on them are just plain awful.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

I've been laughing at the whole Tesla thing since day one and it continues to be a joke. A joke that many people have gotten rich off so that part's good I guess!  :ROFL!:  

One day there'll be a documentary, "When arrogance tried to build a car company. No wait, a battery company.".

----------


## ickyflex

I think Tesla is just going to pave the way for other cars to succeed.

Love the company and product, just don't think the execution has ever been there to be a successful company. 

They have a huge fanboy club though, so for sure the 3 will make some decent sales I presume.

----------


## killramos

Personally I think the company is destined for 2 things.

1 The battery factory will get spun off, potentially as a group effort for a bunch of other auto makers to share an interest in an arms length production facility that will supply them all. 

2. Someone, likely a domestic, is going to swallow them up and "tesla" will become an electric trim line for their cars. Something like a Ford Focus Tesla or Lincoln Navigator Tesla. This will happen after they continually miss earnings once they are no longer the only player in the game. In this sense someone will buy up their debt for the brand and perhaps some technical talent. 

In any case Musk is gone. 

In terms of investing in tesla. Will their buy out price and spin off earnings be enough to justify the current stock price.? Considering their current stock price is shored up by people who think tesla is going to rule the world I think it's unlikely that a long term investment in Tesla pays dividends.

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *2. Someone, likely a domestic, is going to swallow them up and &quot;tesla&quot; will become an electric trim line for their cars. Something like a Ford Focus Tesla or Lincoln Navigator Tesla.*



 This is a really interesting thought.

----------


## rage2

I don't see the gigafactory being spun off. Panasonic owns 1/2 the gigafactory even though all we hear is that it's Teslas.

----------


## suntan

Tesla's market cap is $22 billion, it would be a miracle if Ford ($44b) could take them over.

----------


## Mibz

> _Originally posted by suntan_ 
> *Tesla's market cap is $22 billion*



 $19.77B at the moment. 2 months ago it was $31B.

But nobody's saying they'll be bought out soon anyway.

----------


## killramos

Teslas market cap is based on rainbows and pixie dust. Even after its heavy degradation in the last 12 months. 

If they consistently miss financial targets they will lose market cap and will become a target. They aren't immune from banks any more than an oil company is.

I think the factory is asset that has a lot going for them right now. Which is why I think they will be inclined to sell interest in it after the model 3 flops (relative term) into to pull all their eggs into model 5 or whatever. 

When 5 flops (hypothetical) that's when I see the whole thing getting absorbed. 

Didn't know about Panasonic, I still think that the gigafactory concept only works if everyone uses it. And the most efficient way for that to happen is if a cartel of auto manufacturers buy into it and all source their batteries from it. Gigafactory only works on a mass scale. And for mass scale they need everyone to be sourcing from it. 

25,000 batteries a year will not make the gigafactory economic.

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *25,000 batteries a year will not make the gigafactory economic.*



I think that's why they have that home battery system to hedge against car volume failure.

But right now, sounds like having enough raw material is the problem. Not demand.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4a924a64-9...#axzz3zzmNAAcm

I wonder if we have any lithium in Alberta. This article make it sounds like it's the next gold rush.

----------


## suntan

Lithium is everywhere - it's atomic #3!

Anyhow their home battery system is nothing special - it's subject to all the problems of Lithium-ion batteries. Physics is a bitch.

----------


## yellowGTS

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> I think you're underestimating the automotive industry. Tesla announced the Model 3 way back in 2014, scheduled unveiling in 2016, with deliveries in 2018. The Bolt (I have to go by months here because it was so quick) was unveiled in prototype form in January 2015, green lit for production in February 2015, with a production model unveiled in January 2016, with deliveries by December 2016. Doesn't look like tortoise speed to me.
> 
> 
> So you're comparing a car that exists today to a car that's vapourware and concluded that it'll be miles ahead. OK then.
> 
> 
> Aside from price, there is nothing in common with those cars. Try comparing to the real competition, 5 series BMW, E class Mercedes. I mean if you go and cherry pick cars for comparison that aren't in the same segment, you might as well say that Tesla destroyed the McLaren P1, La Ferrari or Porsche 918. 
> ...



As with any automotive manufacturing, there is a delay from concept phase to actual production, to first deliveries.

BMW is a great example. The new X5 was released in 2014, but they have already started work on prototypes for the next generation. This coming from a company who typically runs a 7 year life cycle, I don't see why there is so much hate for the Model 3.

The only difference between a major company like GM or BMW and Tesla is the way in which they release new models. Tesla needs the publicity and will do whatever it can to keep eyes on them as a growing company, while GM can produce a new model in secrecy for years.

----------


## supe

Model 3 orders at 180,000 in 24 hours. Selling price w avg option mix prob $42k, so ~$7.5B in a day. Future of electric cars looking bright!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

Revenue, earnings, they're all the same thing.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> Not really... they are running their multi-billion dollar business like a kickstarter startup
> 
> Also... didn't they just take 1000$ deposits. they would actually have to deliver cars to earn 7.5b. That is going to take them 5 years and 10 billion dollars to do*



And the problem with the kickstarter like plan is?? The way I see it they just got a 180M interest free loan. 
 
But more importantly thats 180k people who put up real money to support Tesla. So you can hate from the sidelines all you want.

The thought that blows my mind is that they got all these reservations without a drop of advertising.

----------


## supe

This picture here sums up what Tesla is to the car world as what another company did to their industry. 

https://twitter.com/chris75sf/status/715478332695928832

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *Also... didn't they just take 1000$ deposits. they would actually have to deliver cars to earn 7.5b. That is going to take them 5 years and 10 billion dollars to do*



Unless they can figure out how to scale effectively. Maybe they have figured it out and keeping it on the downlow haha.



> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *This picture here sums up what Tesla is to the car world as what another company did to their industry. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/chris75sf/status/715478332695928832*



The difference is that every person in line at Apple nets Apple a profit, where as every person in line at Tesla nets Tesla a loss.

----------


## suntan

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *This picture here sums up what Tesla is to the car world as what another company did to their industry. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/chris75sf/status/715478332695928832*



 So Tesla's going be in the shitter for about 15 years before they come out with a flying car or something?

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> 
> The difference is that every person in line at Apple nets Apple a profit, where as every person in line at Tesla nets Tesla a loss.*



Flawed logic.

Tesla makes money/car sold with healthy margins. The only reason why they lose money is because they are in a growth phase. Example, doubling the number of superchargers by the end of next year. These kinds of expenses will only drive more customers. 

Regarding those superchargers, mark my word, another car company will sign onto the SC network which will justify and validate its model.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> 
> Flawed logic.
> 
> Tesla makes money/car sold with healthy margins. The only reason why they lose money is because they are in a growth phase. Example, doubling the number of superchargers by the end of next year. These kinds of expenses will only drive more customers.*



 Holy shit, that's so fucking wrong, you make ZenOps look sane.

----------


## ickyflex

Biggest Tesla Bandwagon Jumper ever holy lol.

Like are people not allowed to appreciate the company but understand it's flaws.

----------


## killramos

lol is this the first time you guys have experienced supe?

So bud how many model 3's did you pre order? You must have deluded yourself into thinking they are going to be appreciating collectors items by now haven't you?

----------


## rage2

So let's take a look at scaling up again. Tesla needs to sell 500,000 cars a year to become profitable. Today, Tesla is putting out 50k cars a year, and they claim that it's not limited by demand. It's also not limited by battery inventory, as Panasonic has stated that's not the limiting factor. So if we assume that Tesla is lying and there's not more than 50k demand, they can have the factory churn out more than 50k vehicles.

A little history on the Tesla factory. This was originally a manufacturing plant owned by GM and Toyota, aka NUMMI plant. When that partnership ended, they sold it off cheap to Tesla. At it's peak prior to shutdown, it was producing roughly 300k vehicles per year, and that's purely manufacturing/assembly. The Tesla factory as it sits today not only manufacturer vehicles, but manufacturers key components such as battery, motors, as well as house most of their staff.

Batteries, that's easy, that's moving away to the gigafactory. Motor assembly and staffing, let's assume they move it to an offsite location and not a factor. Let's also assume that manufacturing a Tesla is as easy as a Corolla (it's not if you've ever seen the process. Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_lfxPI5ObM ). Even with all these assumptions, you're looking at a shortfall of 200k cars.

So supe, can you answer me this, how is Tesla going to ramp up manufacturing targets to actually produce 500k cars per year to hit their break even point?

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *So let's take a look at scaling up again. Tesla needs to sell 500,000 cars a year to become profitable. Today, Tesla is putting out 50k cars a year, and they claim that it's not limited by demand. It's also not limited by battery inventory, as Panasonic has stated that's not the limiting factor. So if we assume that Tesla is lying and there's not more than 50k demand, they can have the factory churn out more than 50k vehicles.
> 
> A little history on the Tesla factory. This was originally a manufacturing plant owned by GM and Toyota, aka NUMMI plant. When that partnership ended, they sold it off cheap to Tesla. At it's peak prior to shutdown, it was producing roughly 300k vehicles per year, and that's purely manufacturing/assembly. The Tesla factory as it sits today not only manufacturer vehicles, but manufacturers key components such as battery, motors, as well as house most of their staff.
> 
> Batteries, that's easy, that's moving away to the gigafactory. Motor assembly and staffing, let's assume they move it to an offsite location and not a factor. Let's also assume that manufacturing a Tesla is as easy as a Corolla (it's not if you've ever seen the process. Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_lfxPI5ObM ). Even with all these assumptions, you're looking at a shortfall of 200k cars.
> 
> So supe, can you answer me this, how is Tesla going to ramp up manufacturing targets to actually produce 500k cars per year to hit their break even point?*



First of all where are you getting the fact that it needs to make 500k cars to make a profit. I bet you in the next few quarters we will see tesla make a profit. I think the wording is more like, tesla needs to make 500k cars a year to justify its current valuation. 

Second check your stats. The factory is capable of producing 500k cars. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly

Daily total: 1,072 vehicles

So to answer your question, Tesla needs to finalize the design for the Model 3, finish production of the gigafactory then finish the assembly lines at the Tesla Factory. 

I love history lessons.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *First of all where are you getting the fact that it needs to make 500k cars to make a profit. I bet you in the next few quarters we will see tesla make a profit. I think the wording is more like, tesla needs to make 500k cars a year to justify its current valuation. 
> 
> Second check your stats. The factory is capable of producing 500k cars. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly
> 
> Daily total: 1,072 vehicles
> 
> ...



Your messiah told me that number.  :dunno: 

http://www.inc.com/associated-press/...t-in-2020.html

Also, your marth is strong. 1072 * 365 = 391,280. Let's assume 400k AT BEST, still a 100k shortfall.

----------


## ickyflex

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *lol is this the first time you guys have experienced supe?
> 
> So bud how many model 3's did you pre order? You must have deluded yourself into thinking they are going to be appreciating collectors items by now haven't you?*



I mean I know a lead engineer of design at Tesla, and not even he is that naive about the challenges the company faces

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * 
> Second check your stats. The factory is capable of producing 500k cars. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly
> 
> Daily total: 1,072 vehicles
> *



As per usual Supe's own link's screwing him in the buthole




> "Partially demolished (south end and water tower), the remaining plant was refurbished as the NUMMI joint-venture with Toyota and later became the Tesla Factory, Tesla Motors' automobile plant."



The plant you quoted no longer exists as it was partially demolished.

The real plant, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI, could only ever produce 312,000 a year.

Read a book.

----------


## supe

Ok but rage's 500k number is also BS. No one ever said they need to make this number of cars to be profitable. So the whole premise of his argument is flawed. 

Remember if Tesla cut expenses on things like R&D and things like the SC's they would be profitable today.

----------


## killramos

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Ok but rage's 500k number is also BS. No one ever said they need to make this number of cars to be profitable. So the whole premise of his argument is flawed. 
> *



Um Elon did




> CEO Elon Musk, speaking Tuesday at an automotive conference, said Tesla needs to show a profit, and will when it's selling 500,000 cars per year. He predicted that sales milestone will be reached in 2020, when its lower-cost car--the Model 3--is in full production.



Did you even look at the link Rage posted?

wtf is wrong with you

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Ok but rage's 500k number is also BS. No one ever said they need to make this number of cars to be profitable. So the whole premise of his argument is flawed.*



I'll quote it just because...  :Wink:

----------


## supe

Tesla expects to become profitable in 2016, shares rise

http://www.bnn.ca/News/2016/2/10/Tes...erly-loss.aspx

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Tesla expects to become profitable in 2016, shares rise
> 
> http://www.bnn.ca/News/2016/2/10/Tes...erly-loss.aspx*



While I believe in Tesla, Model 3 has to be out by fall of 2017 or Tesla will be out of cash again. Their burn rate is accelerating.

The other issue is EV subsidy is ending for a lot of jurisdictions. So I expect 1/4 to 1/3 of pre-order will drop if they don't release it by fall 2017.

Tesla will build 80-90k (S and X) in 2016. Say they got the process down and able to double the output to 200K per year, they only leave about 110K for Model 3, more if 3 eat into the more profitable S and X sales.

So their factory need to double output every 18 months to meet the 500K by 2020 figure. Tall order.

Also don't forget that the are pressure from both end for Tesla from real car manufacturers. Bolt and Leaf will come from the low end and Porsche and other Germans will start to look serious in 5 years time.

So far Tesla has spent all the cash to get things running while real car manufacturers are spending on R&D. Tesla has not been looking at what's next because they are preoccupied with what they got which is a 10 year old tech at this point.

----------


## supe

Global Equities Researchs Trip Chowdhry notes that: "Impressions from Test Ride: Fast; Superb handling; extremely comfortable  spacious... There are no traditional gauges in the Model 3...very simplistic and elegant." He went on to explain: There is no way BMW, Porche, GM, Toyota, Honda or any other existing auto manufacturer can come even close to competing with Tesla Model 3Model 3 has been designed for the iPhone generation consumer, whose lives are digitally super-centered... and competition is completely clueless.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## rx7_turbo2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Global Equities Researchs Trip Chowdhry notes that: &quot;Impressions from Test Ride: Fast; Superb handling; extremely comfortable  spacious... There are no traditional gauges in the Model 3...very simplistic and elegant.&quot; He went on to explain: There is no way BMW, Porche, GM, Toyota, Honda or any other existing auto manufacturer can come even close to competing with Tesla Model 3Model 3 has been designed for the iPhone generation consumer, whose lives are digitally super-centered... and competition is completely clueless.*



Here's another Trip Chowdhry quote (in regards to Apple) just so we're all on the same page with this clown *"They only have 60 days left to either come up with something or they will disappear.* 

Guy has his finger in the "pulse" that's for sure.  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

An equities analyst is the last guy I want to be doing a car review. When this car is widely available, selling well, and they are making a profit on each car, then I'll be impressed. I do believe Tesla has huge potential, because they've grasped the marketing so much better than the very conservative auto manufacturers. However, currently, they are beyond a niche player, and I don't see any durable advantage they hold over existing and future competition.

----------


## ryanallan

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> *The difference is that every person in line at Apple nets Apple a profit, where as every person in line at Tesla nets Tesla a loss.*



I was curious about this and started to play with numbers. All hypothetical, but the model 3 might be profitable. 

1. From what Google tells me, the gigafactory will drastically reduce the cost of batteries for Tesla. Both because of the production volume and because of their new chemistry. Most are estimating a 50% reduction from today's costs. 

2. Numbers are all over the place right now, but: On the high end, the Model S 85kWh battery replacement today costs $45,000, or $530/kWh. Most articles say Tesla is around the $300/kWh mark right now though. Or ~$150-250/kWh with the gigafactory. 

3. Using the $45,000 number, that's pretty much 1/2 the price of the car. Where 85kWh gets you 450+ miles. If the model 3 gets 200 miles, using today's tech they would need probably less than 60kWh. With the improved battery tech, drivetrain and aero improvements, they could probably get away with something in the 50-55 kWh range. (Chevy Bolt has a 60kWh battery for the same 200+ miles range as the 3). Using the 50kWh battery, and assuming they can cut battery costs by 50%, it might cost in the neighborhood of $12,500 per battery on the high end or $7,500 on the low end. Less than 1/2 the price of the ($35,000) car. 

4. As economy of sale kicks in for the 3's other major components, and with a reasonably cheap battery, the car could be profitable. 

5. The Model S and X will probably also become profitable after the gigafactory comes online too.

----------


## Xtrema

> _Originally posted by ryanallan_ 
> * 
> 
> I was curious about this and started to play with numbers. All hypothetical, but the model 3 might be profitable. 
> 
> 1. From what Google tells me, the gigafactory will drastically reduce the cost of batteries for Tesla. Both because of the production volume and because of their new chemistry. Most are estimating a 50% reduction from today's costs. 
> 
> 2. Numbers are all over the place right now, but: On the high end, the Model S 85kWh battery replacement today costs $45,000, or $530/kWh. Most articles say Tesla is around the $300/kWh mark right now though. Or ~$150-250/kWh with the gigafactory. 
> 
> ...



It really depends on development cost. I think the production cost is down but R&D to get the 3 out is still be to seen. Nobody know how much of the $717M is spent in 2015 related to Model X development but the fact that Elon said the cheaper Model X won't be release for a while means it costed too much. And that's a product that they didn't announce a price for.

But that's right in line for the industry, it typically need to spend $1B for any new car and $6B for a new platform from the ground up. But the cost of offset by selling millions of vehicles base on it, So Model 3 should take around the same as Model X to bring to market and Tesla has $1.2B + another $0.3B from pre-order so it's gonna be tight to keep operating at a loss.

And here's the fun part, Model 3 is announced with a lower price and I would bet 1/2 the pre-order will stick to that. And at that price, if Tesla screw up like the X, they will lose money for on 50% of them made.


Or I like to look at it this way.

Say a Civic is $20K but take away the drivetrain and you have a $10K car.

So for Tesla to be profitable, battery and motors has to be $25K. And based on the 50% off math, it's definitely doable. And that's exactly how GM pulled off the Bolt and how Nissan will be able to pull off the Leaf both will reach 200 miles. 

But at least for the Bolt, we know they use LG Chem's new battery tech to get the 50% off. Nissan has also hinted they are on the same path and achievement.

Here's what Tesla is fighting against:
» Click image for larger version

So Tesla better nailed it with Gigafactory (They expect $88/kwh to $38/kwh when fully running by 2020). Has Tesla announced anything about their battery tech? They should have announced a P160D by now if they have the tech. Or their battery should not cost $45K but $15K.

EDIT: Did some google fu and looks like Tesla and Panasonic is working on something but they can't control the swelling of battery yet. If they are successful, they expect the price of $200/kwh, still $50/kwh more than LG Chem and at least 1 year behind.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by supe_
> * 
> I actually admire GM for creating a respectable EV. I'm just saying, given Tesla's track record of creating exceptional cars, I have a strong suspicion that the Model 3 will be hands down miles ahead of the Bolt.
> *






> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> So you're comparing a car that exists today to a car that's vapourware and concluded that it'll be miles ahead. OK then.
> *



Curious to hear what you think about your Bolt vs Model 3 opinion is now? I think the market has clearly decided which one is better.

----------


## RealJimmyJames

Model 3 is still two years away from being on the street. It is still vaporware.

----------


## sputnik

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Curious to hear what you think about your Bolt vs Model 3 opinion is now? I think the market has clearly decided which one is better.*



The public won't know anything until they have the ability to drive both.

Right now they are putting down a deposit on hype and will probably wait anywhere between 2-5 years before taking ownership.

In 2-5 years all of the major manufacturers will have a comparable (if not better) product that people will be able to buy off the showroom floors. Telsa is really shooting themselves in the foot here. They have basically shown their hand to all of the other manufacturers with actual production capabilities without having the ability to deliver the vehicles in reasonable time.

It would be like Apple releasing the iPhone with all of its specs but not delivering a product for 2-5 years. Not exactly a smart business move.

I would be SHOCKED if Telsa actually delivered half of the vehicles that people have put down deposits for. My guess is that most will get tired of waiting a buy from another manufacturer or not buy anything at all.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## sputnik

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * not to mention it will take them another 4 years to actually deliver the pre orders, if they even get that far
> 
> If you actually want an EV; Nissan, BMW, or GM are going to beu the companies to buy from.
> 
> I think the i3 is going to be cheaper than the model 3 too, and you can go get one today.*



And in the next 5 years Ford, Honda, Toyota, VW and all of the other manufacturers that can actually build large numbers of vehicles will have comparable offerings.

Dumb move for Tesla to show the 3 to everyone without the ability to capitalize on the existing demand.

----------


## RealJimmyJames

Is Elon doing a pump and dump? Who thinks he'll start selling his shares over the next two years? 

Running a hype company is very tough to do for the long term.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> * Curious to hear what you think about your Bolt vs Model 3 opinion is now? I think the market has clearly decided which one is better.*




Are you just trolling now? How can you possibly believe what you typed there? The "market" bought into more hype - that's it/that's all. The only way you could make that statement is if people had actually bought something that exists and were driving it.  :crazy nut:

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE_ 
> * 
> 
> 
> Are you just trolling now? How can you possibly believe what you typed there? The &quot;market&quot; bought into more hype - that's it/that's all. The only way you could make that statement is if people had actually bought something that exists and were driving it. *



The market in this case being the stock market. 

As of this writing, Ford, Toyota, GM are all down ~2% while Tesla is up 3%.

Also don't forget nearly 300k people have put down real money to buy this car. At the very worst that is a 300M interest free loan. And this is only a few days after announcing the car. 

I somewhat agree with the statement that they shouldn't have released the reservation numbers but I think given the lineups it was pretty obvious it was through the roof.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## sputnik

> _Originally posted by RealJimmyJames_ 
> *Is Elon doing a pump and dump? Who thinks he'll start selling his shares over the next two years? 
> 
> Running a hype company is very tough to do for the long term.*



Either that or he is hoping never to have to build cars and just supply the batteries from the Gigafactory to other manufacturers and sell licenses to the Superchargers to other companies.

If Tesla wants to be profitable they need to get out of the car business.

----------


## austic

I think Elon doesn't really care about the profitability he seems to do what he wants and starts companies that interests him. commendable

----------


## killramos

Now that we have seen the actual model 3 pricing, and what it actually comes with at those prices. This being their "car for the masses". I want to again bring up the question of since when is 35,000 dollars a car for the masses? More like car for the middle-upper class. 

And lets remember that as calgarians we are straight up delusional as to what an "average" car is.

 :Repost:  




> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> * 
> 
> And there begs the question of since when is a 35 thousand dollar car affordable for the masses?
> 
> Lets look at the top 10 non pickup truck cars sold in the US and their prices.
> 
> Toyota Corolla : $16,950
> Toyota Camry : $22,970
> ...



With 5k down and 48 month financing a base model 3 is about 700 bucks a month to finance even at today's rock bottom interest rates. That's a lot of money.

I still maintain that for Tesla to be a car for the masses it has to start below 20k and still have all the features of the 3. So when is the Model 1 going to come out?

Personally I hope Tesla releases how many people bail on their pre order's when it comes time to write the big checks.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *
> Personally I hope Tesla releases how many people bail on their pre order's when it comes time to write the big checks.*




Average new car price zips 2.6% to $33,560

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...book/26690191/

Also it won't matter how many people bail. This is what you don't understand, Tesla is not demand constrained. They will make and sell every car they make for the foreseeable future. 

They got 300k reservations without a dime of advertising. If demand ever starts to drop off... then start advertising.

----------


## killramos

Transaction price. Including taxes, fees, options. All things Tesla's 35k doesn't include.

That statistic also includes light trucks which boosts the average price up significantly. and not 1 person in the north america is going to cross shop a Tesla and an F150.

Also where is your source for Tesla's marketing budget being less than 10 cents? I would love to see that. You think all those press events and promoters in the malls are free?

----------


## RealJimmyJames

Ford, GMC and Honda are also not demand constrained. They sell every car they make every year, and they have been doing it for decades.

----------


## lilmira

How does Tesla do Canadian pricing? Do they adjust it periodically with the current exchange rate, or more or less the same as everybody else?

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Curious to hear what you think about your Bolt vs Model 3 opinion is now? I think the market has clearly decided which one is better.*



Listen to me answer your question on QR77 at 4:45pm today.  :Smilie: 




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *The market in this case being the stock market. 
> 
> As of this writing, Ford, Toyota, GM are all down ~2% while Tesla is up 3%.*



The market is terrible at predicting the health of companies.




> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Also don't forget nearly 300k people have put down real money to buy this car. At the very worst that is a 300M interest free loan. And this is only a few days after announcing the car.*



The deposits are refundable so it's not an interest free loan, unless it's a loan that can be called back at any given time. Even assuming that's a loan, their cash burn rate is at an astonishing $350m-$400m per quarter, so yea that won't last long. They'll need to do a couple more stock sales to raise more cash to make it to 2018 when they sell the Model 3.




> _Originally posted by killramos_ 
> *Now that we have seen the actual model 3 pricing, and what it actually comes with at those prices. This being their &quot;car for the masses&quot;. I want to again bring up the question of since when is 35,000 dollars a car for the masses? More like car for the middle-upper class.*



Avg price for a car is $33k.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by lilmira_ 
> *How does Tesla do Canadian pricing? Do they adjust it periodically with the current exchange rate, or more or less the same as everybody else?*



It's adjusted a lot more aggressively than traditional manufacturers. My guess is once a month or quarter?

----------


## HiTempguy1

I don't really have much interest/at stake in this, but I will say that I think you guys are downplaying "just a little bit" the fact 300k people have put a deposit down. There are not many products around that wouldn't draw attention (and praise) to 300k starting to put their money where their collective mouths are. Yes, it's refundable blah blah blah. 300k people expressing interest in a product I am selling, and willing to give me 3% of the purchase price without being able to expect a car in 2 years?

Seems to me that it could be viable. A whole lot of "what ifs" and "others can do this". I think that Tesla has some serious issues, but I don't think they are going anywhere.

Just my take  :dunno:

----------


## rage2

Cash situation:

» Click image for larger version

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by RealJimmyJames_ 
> *Ford, GMC and Honda are also not demand constrained. They sell every car they make every year, and they have been doing it for decades.*



This isn't right. Yes they sell every car they make but they don't make as many cars as they can like Tesla is. Which is why they need to advertise, give incentives, cash rebates etc. They only make as many cars as dealerships are willing to buy which means they are demand constrained.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Listen to me answer your question on QR77 at 4:45pm today. 
> 
> The deposits are refundable so it's not an interest free loan, unless it's a loan that can be called back at any given time. 
> *



Radio... congrats, I'll be listening.

If every single person refunded their deposit is that not the same as a loan? Regardless, its interest free working capitol.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> *I don't really have much interest/at stake in this, but I will say that I think you guys are downplaying &quot;just a little bit&quot; the fact 300k people have put a deposit down. There are not many products around that wouldn't draw attention (and praise) to 300k starting to put their money where their collective mouths are. Yes, it's refundable blah blah blah. 300k people expressing interest in a product I am selling, and willing to give me 3% of the purchase price without being able to expect a car in 2 years?
> 
> Seems to me that it could be viable. A whole lot of &quot;what ifs&quot; and &quot;others can do this&quot;. I think that Tesla has some serious issues, but I don't think they are going anywhere.
> 
> Just my take *



I hear ya, people want this car, there's demand for it at this price and we know this. The problem is the doubts that Tesla can actually produce the numbers to meet the demand without running out of money before getting there. There's also huge risks right now in actually selling the Model 3 at $35,000 and making a profit.

As Elon Musk has pointed out, they need to sell 500k cars a year to become profitable. There is no indication that Tesla can manufacture 500k cars a year. It's a really long road to profitability at this stage and the cash situation does not help one bit.

That's what this thread is about. We know the cars they're making are good cars and in demand, nobody is contesting that.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *This isn't right. Yes they sell every car they make but they don't make as many cars as they can like Tesla is. Which is why they need to advertise, give incentives, cash rebates etc. They only make as many cars as dealerships are willing to buy which means they are demand constrained.*



Every major manufacturer is maxxed out on production. The cars are priced at a sizable profit, and even with the incentives and rebates, they're still selling each car at a profit. They pretty much control demand by pricing. That's how profitable auto manufacturers operate today.

There are some exceptions, cars like the Veyron lose money on every car they sell, but that's done for marketing purposes with costs eaten up by their profitable brands.

----------


## supe

> _Originally posted by rage2_ 
> * 
> Every major manufacturer is maxxed out on production. The cars are priced at a sizable profit, and even with the incentives and rebates, they're still selling each car at a profit. They pretty much control demand by pricing. That's how profitable auto manufacturers operate today.
> *



This is nitpicking but they may be maxxed out now because times are good. But this isn't always the case.

This article from 2013, only 50% of GM factories running at full tilt. 
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5129c82c-2...#axzz44szKb21T

----------


## rage2

Of course, that's why I said that's how *profitable* auto manufacturers operate today.  :Smilie: 

Wasted capacity is wasted money, and when they're not maxxed out, they close down and gets sold which is how Tesla ended up with a factory for cheap.

----------


## Mibz

Maxed. 

The word is spelled 'maxed'.

Thank you.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> _Originally posted by Mibz_ 
> *Maxed. 
> 
> The word is spelled 'maxed'.
> 
> Thank you.*



I like to think it was a play on the Chevy Malibu Maxx.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> The only person I've ever known to own a Malibu Maxx is Fixedgear
> 
> ....I feel like this is relevant somehow*



And he says I'm the retard  :ROFL!:

----------


## Redlyne_mr2

Where is all their cash going? Perhaps Tesla will go the way of blackberry and sell their software/development to manufacturers to put in their vehicles. Keeps costs down and they don't need to worry about styling, crash tests, functionality, distribution.

----------


## ZenOps

I'm thinking about the "affordable" Tesla pre-order.

The only thing really limiting the manufacturing of these compared to traditional autos is the ginormous battery, and the material they use to make it.

If its lithium or nickel makes a huge difference in cost performance and durability. The Tesla S used a 540 kilogram lithium ion or nickel-cobalt-aluminum battery. The nickel is much safer from an fire/explosion standpoint, but not as energy dense as lithium.

The rest of the car is actually much simpler than a combustion engine, not much liquid, no gears, no cams. Its really just a big version of a toy electric RC car.

I think people totally underestimate exactly how rare lithium and nickel are if you are talking 150 to 540 kilograms per car. Nickel is 1,500x rarer than iron (as mined from the ground) it is from a resource standpoint easier to make a thousand iron carframes than one nickel battery.

http://www.economist.com/news/busine...bling-supplies

If 0.5% of the population moves to 300 pound lithium battery cars, it will probably be "doable" 1% will probably not be physically possible (not enough lithium or nickel)

----------


## ZenOps

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...ne-week-2016-4

Over 325,000 preorders already, pretty impressive.

----------


## CLiVE

> _Originally posted by ZenOps_ 
> *
> If 0.5% of the population moves to 300 pound lithium battery cars, it will probably be &quot;doable&quot; 1% will probably not be physically possible (not enough lithium or nickel)*



...and if you look at lithium producers, almost all of their stocks have had a major run up with the Tesla hype. Haven't slowed down yet.  :thumbs up:

----------


## supe

TSLA reaching all time highs 291.

Rage did you ever buy one?

Sugar how is your short position doing? Oh right you have no balls.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## HiTempguy1

Phreak's been called out  :Shock:

----------


## suntan

Meh.

It's a volatile stock.

Buy some LULU if you guys have the balls.

----------


## dirtsniffer

^ what happened on march 29?!

earnings release. dayum

----------


## R154

Nearly 297.

supe, how much money you made man?

Enough to buy one?

Regardless, thats pretty incredible.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I never bet against hype... people are stupid, that is why Trump got elected, and that is why the stock is up
> 
> Doesn't mean it isn't all going to come crashing down*



The problem is that Musk is actually delivering on what he says he will.

You gotta admit that what he is doing is pretty amazing overall  :dunno:  Literally no one else did some of the things he has done until he started doing it, and most are imitating/playing catch up to this day.

It's ok to admit when you are wrong. I have no dog in a fight over investing, but I don't think Musk is all hype. Naive? Glass is half-full? Believer? Sure. But he isn't advocating vapor-ware or hopes and dreams.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Musk does two incredibly important things well. 1) Communicate and 2) Advertise. 

I'm hugely impressed by him. 

However, to think that Tesla as a corporation is worth more than Ford Motor Co, just boggles my mind. I truly don't understand how the world works if this is the reality these days. 

Probably a good thing I don't pick my own investments anymore.  :crazy nut:

----------


## suntan

> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> 
> The problem is that Musk is actually delivering on what he says he will.
> 
> You gotta admit that what he is doing is pretty amazing overall  Literally no one else did some of the things he has done until he started doing it, and most are imitating/playing catch up to this day.
> 
> It's ok to admit when you are wrong. I have no dog in a fight over investing, but I don't think Musk is all hype. Naive? Glass is half-full? Believer? Sure. But he isn't advocating vapor-ware or hopes and dreams.*



 Zzz...

Compare against SHOP for the last year.

Compare against SW for the last year.

TECK blows all three out of the water. COAL FOREVER!

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by supe_ 
> *Rage did you ever buy one?*



No, we didn't. With the way the USD is tracking and Tesla prices pegged to USD, the value just isn't there anymore, even with used ones. New is just out of the question, there's a lot more choices at $215k than an almost loaded P100D Model S.

----------


## ickyflex

> _Originally posted by HiTempguy1_ 
> * 
> 
> The problem is that Musk is actually delivering on what he says he will.
> 
> You gotta admit that what he is doing is pretty amazing overall  Literally no one else did some of the things he has done until he started doing it, and most are imitating/playing catch up to this day.
> 
> It's ok to admit when you are wrong. I have no dog in a fight over investing, but I don't think Musk is all hype. Naive? Glass is half-full? Believer? Sure. But he isn't advocating vapor-ware or hopes and dreams.*



I think Musk is hype, but I do think it's warranted as what he is doing is pretty remarkable.

However, I wouldn't touch it from an investment standpoint

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I don't know, if you gave me billions and billions of dollars I bet I could get a hell of a lot more done that Musk ever did*



How long did it take to sell that house again?  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I don't know, if you gave me billions and billions of dollars I bet I could get a hell of a lot more done that Musk ever did*



 If you gave me billions, you know what I'd do? Two chicks at the same time.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> If you gave me billions and billions I'd just burn it down and film it as part of a reality show... PROFIT!!*



I dunno... eldon does it better... blows up rockets  :ROFL!:

----------


## HiTempguy1

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> I don't know, if you gave me billions and billions of dollars I bet I could get a hell of a lot more done that Musk ever did*



Now we can tell you are just being irrational. He basically brought the electric car segment to the masses, is pulling off space travel in ways governments couldn't even do, and his battery storage system is clearly in demand  :dunno:  What more do you want from the guy? He's basically as real of a deal as it gets.

Is he the best? I'd never deify anyone in that manner. But he certainly isn't some piece of crap like you make him out to be.

On top of all of that, it appears that he basically did it all himself. Like I said, what more could you ask from a person?




> _Originally posted by ExtraSlow_ 
> *
> However, to think that Tesla as a corporation is worth more than Ford Motor Co, just boggles my mind. I truly don't understand how the world works if this is the reality these days.*



Genuine questions:

1) Why does Tesla being worth more than FOMOCO boggle the mind?

2) Do you think Apple/Facebook/Google/Uber have value?

Tesla is a company that actually makes stuff. Not just tells bits and bytes to do certain things which anyone can replicate.

I personally find it mind boggling that software companies are worth so much, producing nothing with actual, inherent value. But that is just my opinion. Like I said, when it comes to investing, I have very little experience to go off of, I am very open to people's opinions.

Edit-
Well, found this article:
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...ger-than-fords

I think the term "investing" says it all. People are expecting Tesla to become huge, and that seems currently like a probable bet to make. So they are investing in it. Ford?

http://csimarket.com/stocks/growthrates.php?code=F

http://csimarket.com/stocks/growthrates.php?code=TSLA

Is it a risky bet? Sure, what isn't? Yahoo was a risky bet, who soared, and then ultimately crashed.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

I have to say that I never thought Facebook will be where it's at but it surpassed my expectation and old school tech is the casualty (Newspaper, TV ads etc).

I think may investors are hoping Elon can do the same and take it to the old car manufacturers.

But given GM's Bolt, I think once the old guards wakes up, they can execute much better and faster than Tesla can ever could. Tesla only got an edge because it doesn't have legacy costs but it shows as there more critical failures than typical mass production manufacturer should.

Just look at Jag's I-Pace in 2018, Volvo/Geely's EV that's based on CMA in 2019 and the fact that Bolt is on the ground and will have a year head start before model 3 is out. Tesla will have to take the Apple route to stay as niche player to demand its worth. The minute it isn't niche, it will lose all the value.

----------


## Xtrema

DBL post

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

I think as a vehicle manufacturer tesla is aware they are niche... which is why so much effort is going into things like battery technology... the licensing to the big boys is what's going to make them a powerhouse 

Like the gold rush, the real money was in pick axes

----------


## ZenOps

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/extr...tesla-model-s/

Yup, its all about the battery.

They used standard size 18650 Lithium Ni-Co-Al in the Tesla S. There is no doubt they will be using the 2170 built by Tesla at their gigafactory for the Tesla 3.

Amazingly enough, the actual engine in the Tesla does not use or require Neodymium (makes the most powerful magnets, and hence the most possible torque) If they did use neodymium, they would probably have to redesign the shaft to be able to handle torque greater than nearly instantaneous 2,200 horsepower, no jokes.

----------


## suntan

> _Originally posted by ercchry_ 
> *I think as a vehicle manufacturer tesla is aware they are niche... which is why so much effort is going into things like battery technology... the licensing to the big boys is what's going to make them a powerhouse 
> 
> Like the gold rush, the real money was in pick axes*



 The laws of physics are a big barrier to well... whatever the hell "battery tech" is farting out of Tesla.

----------


## Disoblige

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> *
> Come on... just pass me a few billion to test out my truthfulness here, I promise I won't squander it on golf carts and oversized bottle rockets *



We all know you're just going to bring Hummer back.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

No, there is no reason why they're called "rare" earth elements. They're almost all pretty common actually.

----------


## JustinL

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> There is a reason they call them &quot;rare&quot; earth magnets. No mass production for that.
> 
> 
> 
> As a side project maybe!
> 
> I'd probably go into infrastructure projects and hydrogen production, storage, and fuel-cell tech if I had billions to blow. 
> ...



What would you do with the hydrogen and fuel cells you created? Would you go the BMW route of running a combustion engine of hydrogen, or would you jam the hydrogen through the fuel cell to make electricity?

----------


## Disoblige

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> As a side project maybe!
> *



Or as a big fuck you to Tesla, you could put a gas or diesel generator on the Hummer to run batteries for the drivetrain  :ROFL!:

----------


## ZenOps

I already mentioned to Tesla that it would probably be a good idea to have an bad road/winter option where you lose a little bit of handling performance, but gain at least another three or six inches or so of road clearance by raising up the battery a bit. I think it would be prudent, or else every car in Calgary would get stuck with the first snow of the year.

----------


## rage2

> _Originally posted by ZenOps_ 
> *I already mentioned to Tesla that it would probably be a good idea to have an bad road/winter option where you lose a little bit of handling performance, but gain at least another three or six inches or so of road clearance by raising up the battery a bit. I think it would be prudent, or else every car in Calgary would get stuck with the first snow of the year.*



Theres a Model X and future Model Y that accomplishes just that.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

When they were discovered, no one knew what to do with them, so no one bothered to assay for them, so rare they were assumed.

----------


## ZenOps

Makes many valid points, but not likely to displace the combustion engine because of the reality of there simply is not enough lithium or nickel to create that many batteries by 2030. It would be like saying man could make it to the moon before 2050, logistics just do not support it.

----------


## pheoxs

> Tesla plans to show off an electric pickup truck sometime within the next two years, the companys CEO Elon Musk said on Twitter today. The pickup was teased originally when Musk revealed the second part of his master plan for Tesla, which began with selling expensive vehicles like the Roadster and Model S, and eventually leads to producing a wide range of more affordable vehicles at scale.
> 
> The truck was previously described as a new kind of pickup by Musk, though hes alluded to the concept even prior to that. Teslas desire to create a pickup makes sense given the success of the category in the companys home country, and its likely planned alongside an upcoming lower cost compact SUV, sometimes referred to the Model Y.





Not sure if official photo or a 3rd party rendering


https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/13/te...esign-in-july/

----------


## RedDawn

The bigger news is the semi truck announcement in September. 

The transportation industry is one of the largest employers in North America and an autonomous electric semi is really going to turn the industry on its head.

"As the second-largest country on earth, with a population stretched from coast to coast to coast, Canada faces unique transportation challenges. As a result, the transportation industry remains a significant force in the Canadian economy, representing 4.7% of the gross domestic product (GDP)."

----------


## ExtraSlow

Autonomous trucking is huge for it's implications for both productivity and employment. 

The dude sitting in that seat is a massive cost right now. Autonomous trucks could really help lower the cost of long distance freight transport, especially if they can work out some kind of "dynamic convoy" situation where trucks from unrelated companies can join together to share the fuel (and safety) savings of driving in a tight convoy. 

This will happen in our lifetime.

----------


## VWEvo

I've been following this thread since its inception. I've even used a lot of the arguments in this thread against my buddies who are Tesla fan boys. However, somehow I got sucked in the Tesla World with the purchase of a Model X. The good news, I'm not a Tesla Fan boy like almost every other owner. I'm not going to pretend its the greatest car in the world. If I feel like going for a spirited drive and having fun, I grab the keys to my X5M. BMW's have soul and are an absolute blast to drive (My former manual m5 being my favourite). But as a daily driver the Tesla is awesome. My kids prefer it over my BMW, and the autopilot feature really is incredible. Its very chill to drive and now I love going on road trips with it. The acceleration and drivability are great, but the car doesn't have "soul" like a lot of ICE cars would. 

I've heard and seen the arguments on here of Tesla's demise, i too was convinced this company will not last. The company still has issues, like service and even to some extent quality. But I will say, owning a Tesla is a completely different experience. For the very few on here that know me (been on here since 2003), I've owned about 20 different cars over the last 15 years. Nothing has been like this ownership experience. Updates are awesome, I have features in my car that I didn't have when I bought it. They even did an update on the sound system and it ended up sounding way better. Tesla isn't going anywhere. Yes there will be competition, yes Tesla will go through its ups and downs. But the reality is, between the battery technology, the solar side, and the actual automotive side, this company will continue to grow fast. I still like seeing some of the arguments against the company, some of which I agree with. But after owning a Tesla now for 8 months, I can actually say it is one of the coolest cars I've ever owned. However, I will say this, I don't think they are worth the price you pay today for it. In fact, my Model X has gone up $20k for a similar equipped car just since October. I barely justified it at the price I paid back then, no way I would have bought it today at the current Canadian prices. Just my $0.02

----------


## VWEvo

> _Originally posted by Sugarphreak_ 
> * 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not being irrational... like I said, give me endless billions and I will do more than Elon
> *



Whats interesting is that Elon started with as much money as you and I have now. Not sure whats stopping you from achieving more than him.  :Wink:  


Crap, I'm starting to sound like a Tesla Fan Boy :Cry:

----------


## Maxt

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/tesla...rman-lutz.html

Lutz is an interesting guy.. I would have liked to have seen him go into politics..

For the autonomous trucking future, who's gonna chain up the truck in winter, how it will it recognize a runaway lane that is all dirt, etc etc? As many failings as humans have, replacing a conscious able body in the truck that is able to improvise and adapt is going to be awfully tough. I could see it working in a temperate climate with perfect roads , but its a ways a way from being able to replace the body in the truck here.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

Autonomous trucks were invented decades ago - the Navitron Autodrive System.

----------


## supe

CEO of Toyota gives a nod to Tesla:




> "I want to change the way they work on EVs," Toyoda said. "Maybe we will call them electric vehicles, but introduce connectivity. Think about Tesla. Tesla is producing cars. And Toyota is producing cars. But what Tesla is producing is something close to an iPhone."



http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...yota-struggles

----------


## speedog

> _Originally posted by Maxt_ 
> *http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/tesla...rman-lutz.html
> 
> Lutz is an interesting guy.. I would have liked to have seen him go into politics..
> 
> For the autonomous trucking future, who's gonna chain up the truck in winter, how it will it recognize a runaway lane that is all dirt, etc etc? As many failings as humans have, replacing a conscious able body in the truck that is able to improvise and adapt is going to be awfully tough. I could see it working in a temperate climate with perfect roads , but its a ways a way from being able to replace the body in the truck here.*



Technology advances will eventually see autonomous vehicles become the norm and in the trucking industry it is probably especially attractive in that the only down time for the truck would be maintenence and fuel.

Even in my short time on this planet there's been amazing advances that have allowed for things we take for granted or soon will that were just sci-fi stuff in the 60's and 70's.

Plus there will always be an acceptable risk factor as well - we still fly around in jets and they occasionally fall out of the sky, the chance occurrence of a jet falling out of the sky is an acceptable risk for most human beings. Autonomous vehicles will be no different.

----------


## Gestalt

> _Originally posted by Maxt_ 
> *http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/tesla...rman-lutz.html
> 
> Lutz is an interesting guy.. I would have liked to have seen him go into politics..
> 
> For the autonomous trucking future, who's gonna chain up the truck in winter, how it will it recognize a runaway lane that is all dirt, etc etc? As many failings as humans have, replacing a conscious able body in the truck that is able to improvise and adapt is going to be awfully tough. I could see it working in a temperate climate with perfect roads , but its a ways a way from being able to replace the body in the truck here.*



Elon better listen, Lutz knows a thing or two about going bankrupt.  :Big Grin:

----------


## supe

Model X - Safest SUV ever tested, achieves 5 star rating in every category/subcategory

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/tes...-safety-rating

Stock price $368

----------


## Xtrema

> Model X - Safest SUV ever tested, achieves 5 star rating in every category/subcategory
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/tes...-safety-rating
> 
> Stock price $368



http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/13/ron-b...0-by-2020.html

$1000 by 2020. Because all the data Tesla will collect on users, not what are building or going to build. But people who say it's going to $1000 also owns a good chunk of shares, so who knows.

More and more analyst say Model 3 will come in at $50K

https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3...ost-around-50k

----------


## ZenOps

I'm not 100% convinced that Tesla could beat out a Chinese electric car company.

Sure, they could make less counterfeited battery cells, that and the US could ban imports of Chinese made vehicles (including bicycles and the like) but that's really the only thing that the US has going for them at this particular moment in time.

If I could get my hands on some 2170 cells and test them for a couple years, that might change my tune.

----------


## Xtrema

> I'm not 100% convinced that Tesla could beat out a Chinese electric car company.
> 
> Sure, they could make less counterfeited battery cells, that and the US could ban imports of Chinese made vehicles (including bicycles and the like) but that's really the only thing that the US has going for them at this particular moment in time.
> 
> If I could get my hands on some 2170 cells and test them for a couple years, that might change my tune.



Nothing stopping Chinese to build a Tesla clone.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/all...are-belong-you

Elon is betting on it. Because all that mean is EV will be more accessible to the masses.

But since China's EV target is more aggressive than any country in the world, don't expect they will have enough EV for export. 8% of vehicle sold by each manufacturer must be EV or plug-in hybrid by 2018.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1941V5

----------


## speedog

Tesla model 3 - that front end is just not right...



Maybe because it reminds me of...

----------


## Xtrema

Ain't that bad.

----------


## rage2

Any one making money on Tesla this week? Quite the rollercoaster.

Model 3 production numbers are worrying. 30 cars for July, 100 cars for August, 1500 cars for September. Pretty brutal ramp up, although there's a promise of 20k cars in December unless it gets revised.

The Model 3 estimated financials are pretty worrying as well. $35k MSRP nets Tesla a loss of $3k, optioned up to $41k is the break even point. Not sure how they're going to make any money on this thing.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Tesla will make money like they always do, speculation and vapour lol 

What was the last liquid cash call? Deposits to "pre-order" solar roofs?

----------


## JustinL

> Any one making money on Tesla this week? Quite the rollercoaster.



I jumped ship earlier this week and took my profits. I'm expecting it to decline for a while and I'll reassess later if it becomes appealing again.

----------


## BigMass

> [/img]
> 
> Ain't that bad.



looks like every other car. Would be cool to see something different that only EVs can really accomplish, such as almost no overhangs. Would distinguish the look and make parallel parking easier.

----------


## rage2

> looks like every other car. Would be cool to see something different that only EVs can really accomplish, such as almost no overhangs. Would distinguish the look and make parallel parking easier.



The thing parks itself, don't think it can get any easier than that.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> Not sure how they're going to make any money on this thing.



I thought it was going to be known as a loss leader, just to ramp up for the whole Gigafactory thing.

----------


## killramos

I bet the majority of model 3 orders are stripper models too from people who just want to be involved with the craze. Maybe TSLA will be the topic of "The Big Short 2". Anyone have the balls?

----------


## rage2

> I thought it was going to be known as a loss leader, just to ramp up for the whole Gigafactory thing.



Nope. Model 3 is their bread and butter. The expected profit margin is 25% just like the S and X.




> I bet the majority of model 3 orders are stripper models too from people who just want to be involved with the craze. Maybe TSLA will be the topic of "The Big Short 2". Anyone have the balls?



No balls here. Just making money on the gains here and there, and pulling out before it tanks. Still too cautious, I missed the May/June run before this week's tankfest.

----------


## JustinL

I feel like the worst news for Tesla this week was the Volvo going electric headline. Every news outlet seems to spin it that Volvo is going to be ditching ICE as of 2019 and even though that's way off, I think it's waking up the investment community that Tesla isn't going to be the only electric only car manufacturer for much longer. With the downgrade from Goldman Sachs and some plateauing sales... there's a lot of downward pressure this week. I think I could have sold higher, but I still feel like I dodged a bullet with this one.

----------


## Xtrema

The way the X and S put together, they are not even remotely good with car manufacturing.

And to get volume up, I think QA will take a back seat and I assume the 1st 2 years of 3 will be horribly made and will have tons of issues like X. 

The volume out of the gate is disappointing with so many owners are waiting. And we have yet to see what the 1st year model includes. It would be funny if $35K get you less than 60kwh.




> I feel like the worst news for Tesla this week was the Volvo going electric headline. Every news outlet seems to spin it that Volvo is going to be ditching ICE as of 2019 and even though that's way off, I think it's waking up the investment community that Tesla isn't going to be the only electric only car manufacturer for much longer. With the downgrade from Goldman Sachs and some plateauing sales... there's a lot of downward pressure this week. I think I could have sold higher, but I still feel like I dodged a bullet with this one.



The beauty of that PR stunt is that everyone is talking about ditching ICE but it's actually everything in their line up with have a battery.

Pretty soon, most German cars will also be light hybrids with a 48V electric + battery system. So it's nothing new or revolutionary.

Now if someone can come out and say you can get 300 miles of range of an EV in 5 mins, that'll be the end of ICE.

----------


## rage2

> I feel like the worst news for Tesla this week was the Volvo going electric headline. Every news outlet seems to spin it that Volvo is going to be ditching ICE as of 2019 and even though that's way off, I think it's waking up the investment community that Tesla isn't going to be the only electric only car manufacturer for much longer. With the downgrade from Goldman Sachs and some plateauing sales... there's a lot of downward pressure this week. I think I could have sold higher, but I still feel like I dodged a bullet with this one.



The stock was dropping before that. The sales numbers and Model 3 production numbers was clearly the trigger. It was only last winter that Tesla estimated 200k Model 3's produced by the end of 2017 (estimates at one time were as high as 300k in 2017). We're getting 28 in July, 100 in August, 1500 in September. That's not promising news. 200k cars @ 25% margins was what was going to keep the company moving forward with a influx of cash. Let's hope they actually make 25% margin on it, otherwise sell before the Q3 quarterly results haha.

Slightly related, the 25% margin that Tesla boasts on their cars doesn't really compare with traditional manufacturers, as it doesn't include R&D costs, or costs of running sales operations into the cost of a Model 3. Traditional manufacturers include R&D costs, have no sales operating costs as dealers bear that cost. Tesla doesn't break R&D costs down between each model either, so yea, comparisons are meaningless. At this stage, only thing that matters is cash flow.




> Pretty soon, most German cars will also be light hybrids with a 48V electric + battery system. So it's nothing new or revolutionary.



I think my next car will be one of these fancy German hybrids.  :Smilie:

----------


## HiTempguy1

Nobody going to jump on the Model 3 release? For shame Beyond, for shame  :ROFL!: 

Lots of high praise coming in. 310 mile range :o I could actually consider buying one as my commute just went to 50 minutes one way on the highway for the next 12 months.

If my math is right, a 30usmpg car would cost $3050 in regular gas for 39,000kms of driving/year. The 3 with the big pack (presumably 75kwh) would need 78.6 charges for the year. At 3.658c/kwh for floating electricity. So the tesla would cost $215 for 39,000kms?? And that is only factoring in just my daily trips. Wonder what heat does to power drain for the 6 months of winter we have...

Just spitballing. I'm a cheapass, so I'll probably just drive a junky old beater that gets 45mpg and costs $2k to buy.

----------


## Disoblige

I wish the price point would be much lower, making them ~35k CAD (all-in) instead of the 35k USD starting price for a base model.
I mean, I don't need it to go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds. Even 6.5 or so is acceptable if we can keep the price point lower.

I get free electricity where I live so I was strongly considering getting something so I can drive around for "free"  :Big Grin:

----------


## killramos

If an AWD Model 3 ( just realizing I can't can't call it an M3... ) could be had for under 30k I would try one out as a winter commuter. Being able to preheat it from my phone would be great.

The "launch" is kindof moot for us, I wonder if Calgary gets even 1 delivered before year end?

Wife says she likes the new mustang refresh so that is more likely to be on the Horizon. MOAR V8's!

----------


## Xtrema

> Nobody going to jump on the Model 3 release? For shame Beyond, for shame 
> 
> Lots of high praise coming in. 310 mile range :o I could actually consider buying one as my commute just went to 50 minutes one way on the highway for the next 12 months.
> 
> If my math is right, a 30usmpg car would cost $3050 in regular gas for 39,000kms of driving/year. The 3 with the big pack (presumably 75kwh) would need 78.6 charges for the year. At 3.658c/kwh for floating electricity. So the tesla would cost $215 for 39,000kms?? And that is only factoring in just my daily trips. Wonder what heat does to power drain for the 6 months of winter we have...
> 
> Just spitballing. I'm a cheapass, so I'll probably just drive a junky old beater that gets 45mpg and costs $2k to buy.



I have been using 5:1 at current electricity prices.

If it costs you $3000 in gasoline, electrification will cost you ~$600. 

You can do about 5km/kwh on Model S in ideal situation. You get more if it's stop and go and less if it's highway or winter.

Each kwh is about 10cent (6.9cents + fees). 39000 would be 7800kwh or $780 in electricity. If you flow, I don't know what the average price would be for a typical year. So you may win some and lose some I would assume compared to fixe at 6.6cent.

While you will save $2K per year. You are paying a premium over gasoline car and if you drive that much, you probably also would spend $2K for a level 2 240V charger at home. So if you get the $44K Model 3 ($57K CAD), compares to a Civic, you are paying $27K more. $30K if you include the charger, at $2K/year saving you will only break even at 15 years.

It will make even less sense if you are ok with 45mpg beater you already own. 

Now if Alberta throws in $7-$14K of incentives like BC and Ontario. Then it's a no brainer to get an EV. Especially the e-Golf that while only have 1/2 the mileage as the Model S, it's also a full $15K cheaper.

As cool as Tesla are, it's more of a environmental statement than making any financial sense. Especially without incentives. Buying EV in Alberta while BC and Ontario has tons incentive means you lose $10-$15K in resell the minute you drive off the lot.

That said, I think I'm looking into an EV as a weekday work vehicle. I really don't care about range. All I need is 100km worth of range (~18kwh on e-Golf), and it would spend 12+hr charging back to 100% at 120V/13A. So no expensive 240V charger needed. And as long as I don't deplete the full capacity of battery, I will never need to charge the e-Golf's 39kwh for 24hrs. And if I can plug that in at work, the need for charging will be even lower.

And if you really want a 240V charging on non-Tesla's, get this: https://www.costco.ca/GE-Wattstation...100242085.html and hire a electrician to install it.

----------


## rage2

I was going to start a thread but got caught up on work, I'm actually talking about it on the radio this afternoon. Reviews have been great so far, but driving is limited. Would be interested how well it actually handles, looks like they tuned the setup to handle much nicer than the S. Canadian prices is going to sticker shock preorders here. At launch, only the 310mile (500km) RWD version available, which starts at $55,000 CAD. Options available are:

$6500 interior upgrade (power seats, wood trim etc)
$6500 autopilot
$4000 full autonomy hardware
$2000 19" wheels
$1500 paint (black is free, any other color needs this option).

So fully loaded, it's a $75k car + tax. When full autonomy is available, there may also be a fee for the software.

The base 210 mile (300km) version will start production months later, dropping that price to $44,000 base zero options or $64,000 loaded. Expect AWD to add roughly $8k to either model's pricing.

All of a sudden, the everyday family affordable compact EV is an almost $90k car, over $100k for the performance models later on down the line.  :Shock: 

So ya, all this cost of gas savings is moot when you're shelling out C63 money for something that competes with a C300 or maybe C43. On the bright side, the phone app key is a nice touch, kinda surprised traditional manufacturers are so slow to roll it out. Volvo and Mercedes-Benz are the only 2 that have them for some cars. The touch screen for everything will be interesting. Hope they improved on the reliability of the software there. My boss in his Model S routinely bitches about his screen locking up, requiring a reboot to fix.

----------


## killramos

:Shock: 

and considering we can't even get MBrace here in Canada in 2017 I refuse to endorse MB for being anywhere close to up to date with technological features. BMW was 100X better than them wrt phone connectivity, command, connected driving etc.

Does the phone key thing even work here on the new E and S? bet it doesn't...

----------


## rage2

The MB one is kinda lame, you actually have to take your phone out of your pocket, defeating the whole purpose. But it does work here, not tied to mbrace.

----------


## Gestalt

We are pretty excited. My wife put a deposit on one last week. I know it could be years unel we see it, hopefululy lines up with the lease on her e expiring.

Weev also decided to double our solar capacity by then.

----------


## killramos

I wonder if Tesla's come with spell check...

----------


## rage2

> We are pretty excited. My wife put a deposit on one last week. I know it could be years unel we see it, hopefululy lines up with the lease on her e expiring.
> 
> Weev also decided to double our solar capacity by then.



Tesla estimates Christmas 2018 if you reserve one today. But that's assuming production is on pace and demand doesn't drop.

----------


## Gestalt

> Tesla estimates Christmas 2018 if you reserve one today. But that's assuming production is on pace and demand doesn't drop.



 may 2019 wouod be perfect.

----------


## TYMSMNY

so how does the $$ at a supercharger work... insert CC and charge away? How much would it be to charge a p100 (assuming trip mode)

Kind of want one... but heard so many mixed stories on build quality and of course now, pay per charge.

----------


## Xtrema

> so how does the $$ at a supercharger work... insert CC and charge away? How much would it be to charge a p100 (assuming trip mode)
> 
> Kind of want one... but heard so many mixed stories on build quality and of course now, pay per charge.



https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/12/1...c-car-charging

100kwh at 10c/kwh = $10.

If that's what they charge in Alberta, but sounds like it differs by regions.

Of course, if you bought a Model S/X before Apr 15, 2017 or a used one from that era. Unlimited access still applied.




> may 2019 wouod be perfect.



May be $cdn will be on par again by then too and it actually make sense without incentives.

Model 3 is cool but there is no way a P75D (or however they will name it) will be priced competitive to a C43 once it gets the mild hybrid.

----------


## benyl

I think in Canada, they can't charge for power, they charge for time.

http://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/ca...ng-price-list/

from the comments:




> A Tesla battery has a capacity of 85 kWh, so based on JD's info the supercharger can push a maximum of 2kW/min; but average charge rate is closer to 1kW/min. In Ontario the cost to "fill" the car from "empty" is about $0.12/kWh * 85kWh * 1.4 delivery surcharge = $14.28. To compare the "fillup costs" to gasoline priced at $1.15/L, Tesla range on a full charge is 428 km, so $14.28 / $1.15/L / 428 km = 2.9 L/100 km. To compare, gas powered cars are ~10 L/100 km, hybrids ~6 L/100 km.

----------


## Xtrema

> I think in Canada, they can't charge for power, they charge for time.
> 
> http://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/ca...ng-price-list/
> 
> from the comments:



hmm

So say you are topping up 60kwh at 1kwh/min, that's 60mins at 0.12 each. $7.2 for 60kwh or $12 of 100kwh.

Not bad. Equivalent range on ICE with same performance is around 11l/100km or $65 of premium gas vs $12 of electricity.

----------


## rage2

> Kind of want one... but heard so many mixed stories on build quality and of course now, pay per charge.



Tesla build quality isn't going to be on par with German automakers, that's not what you're paying for. Quality is still hit and miss from what I've been seeing. If you're OCD about build quality and super anal about things such as fit and finish, chances are, the Model S will piss you off. If you're like me and don't have the eye of a professional bodywork tech, the fit and finish really isn't a huge deal at all. With that being said, what would annoy me is usability experience. From software bugs and glitches, its a lot of recurring issues that takes time to iron out. When I'm in a car, I don't want to be a beta tester. One of the Tesla owners I've talked to has held off on updating till things are cleaned up, so not early adopting new updates/features. The upside to all this I guess is that the usability doesn't affect the driving at all. You might not have AC or can't access a feature, but you can still drive.

So while the whole software OTA update is really cool and you benefit from new features for "free", Tesla isn't exactly fast at software changes. There are more and more new Model S and X owners on the new autopilot 2 hardware by the day, and it's getting quite vocal with owners pissed off that they're still not on feature parity with the original autopilot hardware cars all because Tesla had a spat with Mobileye and had to start from scratch.

So yea, build quality isn't what you should worry about with a Tesla. That shit can get fixed, no big deal. You have to be able to deal with and handle the whole early adopter experience for the benefit of having new capabilities on a regular basis. Most owners believe the driving experience is worth it to live with buggy everything else.

----------


## Gestalt

Im liking the rave reviews so far. Words like exuberent and massively impressive.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

That's the great thing about Kool-Aid, it's always the greatest thing ever.

----------


## ExtraSlow



----------


## Gestalt

And sour grapes are the worse thing ever

----------


## Tik-Tok

> And sour grapes are the worse thing ever



But sour grape koolaid is the greatest thing ever.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

How is understanding that Tesla is a house of cards fraught with many problems sour grapes?

----------


## tonytiger55

> Nobody going to jump on the Model 3 release? For shame Beyond, for shame 
> 
> Lots of high praise coming in. 310 mile range :o I could actually consider buying one as my commute just went to 50 minutes one way on the highway for the next 12 months.
> 
> If my math is right, a 30usmpg car would cost $3050 in regular gas for 39,000kms of driving/year. The 3 with the big pack (presumably 75kwh) would need 78.6 charges for the year. At 3.658c/kwh for floating electricity. So the tesla would cost $215 for 39,000kms?? And that is only factoring in just my daily trips. Wonder what heat does to power drain for the 6 months of winter we have...
> 
> Just spitballing. I'm a cheapass, so I'll probably just drive a junky old beater that gets 45mpg and costs $2k to buy.



I actually considered it. Will be really cheap for the commute I have (37km one way). I just don't know how the battery handles when its -30c. Currently when it gets that cold, the heat on my Honda is at max, the interior gets warm just when I get home. Im curious to see how it handles during the winter and battery life. 

A lot has been spoken of the build quality. Look at Hyundai and the MK1 Hondas and Toyotas. They were pretty bad when they first started. Its the same for Tesla. If they last long enough to refine the car, it may not be so bad.

----------


## rage2

I've only driven a cold Tesla S once about 3 years ago, and from that experience, it takes a while to heat up the cabin. Having only V8's at the time, I'm used to having warm air coming in the cabin within 3 mins, and a warm cabin in 5-7 mins. In the Model S, I drove it for 20 mins and by the end of the drive it was cold but acceptable. Didn't help that I didn't bring a big jacket. Apparently this is because I was driving in stop/go traffic and wasn't enough to generate enough mechanical heat which the Model S uses for heating. You can pre-heat but it draws a ton of power unless you pre-heat the car plugged into 240V. When the battery is cold, the driving experience changes, as the battery needs to heat up before it can charge, so there's no regen braking which is a little unsettling if you're used to using lift throttle braking. Also not good for range. It also quite a bit of power for heating, so coupled with cold battery and lack of regen you lose around 40-50% of range on average based on Canadian owners experiences. Park it in a heated garage, keep the car warm at all times, and the range drop improves to around 20%-30%. That's for the Model S. For the 3 with smaller batteries, it might drop even more.

As for build quality, it's been 5 years since they've been building the Model S? It's improved, but not at the rate where it'll catch up to traditional manufactures anytime soon which is a bit of a shame. It's simple stuff that's problematic, bad install of window seals, trim pieces falling off, stuff that's not really a problem with design but more installation. Maybe it's been improved drastically for the Model 3 but we'll have to wait and see. WSJ's short test drive had issues where the Model 3 wouldn't shift, and needed a reboot, so bugs are still there unfortunately.

----------


## supe

Up ~5% AH, beat all estimates, phew, I guess for now the house of cards stands lol

So far all the reviews of the Model 3 are pretty good. This article has references to a lot of the top reviews "The Model 3 Has No Competition":

https://futurism.com/reviewers-of-te...o-competition/

The biggest question on all our minds now is whether they can scale. Rage are you still a doubter? As far as anyone can tell, they are on track to get to a run rate of 240k cars a year by dec, double that some point in 2018. If thats not scaling, I don't know what to tell you.

Also how is the Bolt doing? I thought GM was supposed to crush Tesla...

----------


## tonytiger55

> Up ~5% AH, beat all estimates, phew, I guess for now the house of cards stands lol
> 
> So far all the reviews of the Model 3 are pretty good. This article has references to a lot of the top reviews "The Model 3 Has No Competition":
> 
> https://futurism.com/reviewers-of-te...o-competition/
> 
> The biggest question on all our minds now is whether they can scale. Rage are you still a doubter? As far as anyone can tell, they are on track to get to a run rate of 240k cars a year by dec, double that some point in 2018. If thats not scaling, I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> Also how is the Bolt doing? I thought GM was supposed to crush Tesla...



When we talk about Teslas units per year, is it a comparison against other vehicle manufacturers.. and their output? I would assume building the Tesla is a bit different, no engine... 4 electric motors, battery, chassi, struts, interior, wiring etc. Where as other manufacturers would have to factor in engine assembly and fluids, but then again they have the large manufacturing and logistics already in place . It would be interesting to see how different the supply chain management side is..

----------


## rage2

> Up ~5% AH, beat all estimates, phew, I guess for now the house of cards stands lol



Well when you set the expectations low... only lost $336m this quarter with a negative free cash flow of $1.16b.  :ROFL!: 

On the bright (or not so bright) side they expect to burn more cash to a tune of $2b between Q3 and Q4 (Q1 and Q2 was $1.5b), so they're burning more cash but they have $3b on hand.




> The biggest question on all our minds now is whether they can scale. Rage are you still a doubter? As far as anyone can tell, they are on track to get to a run rate of 240k cars a year by dec, double that some point in 2018. If thats not scaling, I don't know what to tell you.



We'll see how close they are to target by December. Just make sure you don't hide if they do bad lol. They made 50 cars (30 deliveries, 20 engineering validation) for the 3 in July. It's not even a final product yet which is kinda weird.

btw - I've never doubted Tesla cars. I just have doubts about the company. There's a clear distinction between the 2. If you listen to my AM770 bits, I actually talk way too much about Tesla, and it's pretty much all praise.




> Also how is the Bolt doing? I thought GM was supposed to crush Tesla...



I really don't know why Bolt sales are so slow. I recommended a couple friends to try the Bolt out in Cali while waiting on the 3, and all 3 ended up buying them. They all love them, drives like a VW GTI, as much room as a small SUV, but in a compact car size. It's a good car, but haven't really looked as to why it's failing in sales.

----------


## Gestalt

> How is understanding that Tesla is a house of cards fraught with many problems sour grapes?



Teslas purpose was to show that electric cars can be fast and cool, and to spread the bug, put a torch under other car makers.

Mission accomplished. 

you dont understamd much of the world, so you certainly dont understand musk or tesla.

----------


## supe

> Well when you set the expectations low... only lost $336m this quarter.



Still above estimates, and who cares about losses, they can just do more capital raises, every time they do the stock seems to go up  :ROFL!: 




> We'll see how close they are to target by December. Just make sure you don't hide if they do bad lol. They made 50 cars (30 deliveries, 20 engineering validation) for the 3 in July. It's not even a final product yet which is kinda weird.
> 
> 
> 
> btw - I've never doubted Tesla cars. I just have doubts about the company. There's a clear distinction between the 2.



It honestly doesn't matter what the number is in Dec, because who is Tesla competing against? Where is all this competition that is supposed to steal away Tesla's customers? Remember there is a backlog of over half a million deposits on the 3 which is why the July event was lame, they don't need to sell the vehicle. They have too much demand, what a problem to have. 

But we are talking about the company, you said Tesla couldn't scale, I'm asking do you still believe that? Remember, you said they are supposed to fail like tivo, because tivo couldn't scale. 




> I really don't know why Bolt sales are so slow. I recommended a couple friends to try the Bolt out in Cali while waiting on the 3, and all 3 ended up buying them. They all love them, drives like a VW GTI, as much room as a small SUV, but in a compact car size. It's a good car, but haven't really looked as to why it's failing in sales.



Honestly, I wish the Bolt well, but they aren't Tesla's competetion, it still looks like a milk carton and all the reviews say that its cheap plastic all over. Reviews of the 3 say its top notch through and through.

----------


## rage2

> But we are talking about the company, you said Tesla couldn't scale, I'm asking do you still believe that? Remember, you said they are supposed to fail like tivo, because tivo couldn't scale.



I still believe that, yes. They hand built 30 cars today, I have no idea where you have the idea that they can scale successfully (meaning becoming profitable) other than Tesla's own estimates.

But hey, if they continue to raise cash and people continue to give them cash to scale while losing money, well, I couldn't have predicted that at all, so I'd be wrong. 

See ya in December haha.

----------


## benyl

I feel like the Bolt has a supply problem. Has anyone even seen one in Calgary?

----------


## supe

They will scale using these:

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/04/27...assembly-line/

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> you dont understamd much of the world, so you certainly dont understand musk or tesla.



Quote for sheer irony.  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> I feel like the Bolt has a supply problem. Has anyone even seen one in Calgary?



They've only been made available to Ontario, Quebec and a small number in BC. The 3 provinces with EV credits. In the US, they're not selling, GM slowed down production, and there are a stockpile of inventory on dealer lots. One of my friends picked his up for $23k after incentives in California.

It's way too expensive in Alberta for both the Bolt and Model 3 to be mainstream when average price for cars sold here is around $28k while the cheapest Bolt or Model 3 right now is $50k+. Stings even more with no credits in Alberta.

----------


## dirtsniffer

$90k vs $45 I would expect there to be some differences.

----------


## rage2

> They will scale using these:
> 
> https://cleantechnica.com/2017/04/27...assembly-line/



Thanks, I know how cars are built. Here's my original post that you're referring to:




> EV's are still a novelty, anyone that think it will take over the world in the short term is dreaming. There needs to be so much infrastructure built to properly support it to make it fesible for critical mass. It can be the best product out there, but once it reaches critical mass, it doesn't matter. Shitty products sell, and is what rakes in the money. With that being said, Tesla needs to be able to scale up from a boutique manufacturer to a real manufacturing level to beat the big manufacturers. That means they'll need hundreds of billions of dollars behind them to all bet on EV being truly the path of the future, and take losses for a decade or 2 to be able to compete at that time. I don't see enough big investors willing to take that gamble with that much money.



Note the underline. That's what will make me wrong if they succeed.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

Tesla has already succeeded. He changed the world that was the goal.

Wether tesla ever makes a profit is not relevant. Thats the magoc of that giant scam called the stock market.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

See my previous quote Suge....

----------


## rage2

> Tesla has already succeeded. He changed the world that was the goal.



California? Sure. World? Nope.

----------


## Gestalt

Whats tye saying sugarphreak? Hate the player or the game?

Ceos from major comapnies have already credited Tesla for proving electric is viable and better.
https://evannex.com/blogs/news/seven...ging-the-world
http://amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/...ld/?source=dam
https://electrek.co/2017/05/17/volvo...c-vehicle/amp/
https://www.fastcompany.com/3028540/...urpose-economy

Then his free patents, giga factory, deal with australia and hawaii.

But hey, yor contributed $7 to starbucks this morning, way to help humanity lol

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

Oh sugar. Your try and funny sinicism just shows as bitter old man.  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

A few things about that infographic, how does a 14kwh powerwall charge a 60kwh battery? Also Model 3 doesn't have biodefense or autopilot standard. Biodefense isn't even available.

----------


## Xtrema

> A few things about that infographic, how does a 14kwh powerwall charge a 60kwh battery? Also Model 3 doesn't have biodefense or autopilot standard. Biodefense isn't even available.



You get 4 of course!

But really, a 800 sqft roof in California will only generate 18-24kwh per day in optimal condition anyway so no way you need more than 2, especially if you own EVs. If you have 2 cars doing 40km daily commute, that's 16kwh already. So even in Cali, it can barely recharge the car for limited daily driving. Anything beyond that, you have to plan your route around chargers. But I would say at least that take the charging EV load off the grid at night. 




After seeing this, I'm so disappointed at the infrastructure. It's going to be a mental challenge to travel around Cali for 2 weeks in a Model S.




> Tesla has already succeeded. He changed the world that was the goal.
> 
> Wether tesla ever makes a profit is not relevant. Thats the magoc of that giant scam called the stock market.



Well, that scam called stock market help created Tesla. Without the crazy valuation, you won't even see Model 3 arriving at all as Elon burn a lot of investors' cash.

Look at other EV startup without $ backing them. Faraday is basically out of cash and Lucid is looking to sell out to Ford.

Tesla didn't change the world. It played a part. CAFE standard, Cali laws, Chinese laws and soon European laws all played a part in rise of EV. But until you can recharge 300km range in 10mins or less, it will continue to be niche. Some will live with that compromise, most won't.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> You get 4 of course!
> 
> But really, a 800 sqft roof in California will only generate 18-24kwh per day in optimal condition anyway so no way you need more than 2, especially if you own EVs. If you have 2 cars doing 40km daily commute, that's 16kwh already. So even in Cali, it can barely recharge the car for limited daily driving. Anything beyond that, you have to plan your route around chargers. But I would say at least that take the charging EV load off the grid at night. 
> 
> Well, that scam called stock market help created Tesla. Without the crazy valuation, you won't even see Model 3 arriving at all as Elon burn a lot of investors' cash.
> 
> Look at other EV startup without $ backing them. Faraday is basically out of cash and Lucid is looking to sell out to Ford.
> 
> Tesla didn't change the world. It played a part. CAFE standard, Cali laws, Chinese laws and soon European laws all played a part in rise of EV. But until you can recharge 300km range in 10mins or less, it will continue to be niche. Some will live with that compromise, most won't.



First suggestion is to try your math again in the morning, when you are less tired.

Second comment. You bet, Musk knows how to work the stock market scam. Why let enron and wallstreet scam for themselves, when he knows the game, and can use it to improve our planet. money for nothing and chicks for free.

Tesla has changed the world, probably more than anyone since they invented the internet and cell phones. THe laws exist because tesla proved it can be done.

----------


## Xtrema

> First suggestion is to try your math again in the morning, when you are less tired.



Number is base on this article as I can't really find what Tesla is really saying their solar roof can do. 

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...las-solar-roof

9000kwh/year = 25 kwh/day.

Don't get me wrong, it's still took a lot off the grid. But it doesn't replace the grid nor it's a reliable replacement at night for the general public.

And it get worse as we go north, Canada averages 2-5kwh/day.

----------


## rage2

> Don't get me wrong, it's still took a lot off the grid. But it doesn't replace the grid nor it's a reliable replacement at night for the general public.



We'll eventually get there. The Tesla thin panels are rated at 22% efficiency, while commercial thick panel setups can go as high as the 40% range. The expectation is that thin panels suitable for homes will hit 40% in 15 years, with think panels hitting 60% range. That'll triple the output that we're seeing today for the same amount of space. Of course with the move towards medium and high density housing, it greatly increases consumption per sq ft, making solar useless even at 100% efficiency.

The big one is storage, we need to get better with battery technology. None of the emerging battery techs have panned out yet, just a bunch of bankrupt startups.

----------


## mazdavirgin

> Tesla has changed the world, probably more than anyone since they invented the internet and cell phones.



There's stupid statements and then there are Gestalt stupid statements.  :facepalm:

----------


## Gestalt

My system is rated at about 1060 watts. I bought cheap panels, only 16% efficient takes about 60 feet just logged in and they are currently putting 732 watts back in the grid. Mine are steep, more for winter, but ill see right around 900 watts for a couple hours today.

Now check that against a California roof with 15x more panels. And then watch as efficiency goes from 16 to 25 to 30 percent.

----------


## killramos

I can't wait until we come full circle and find out how driving Teslas is destroying the planet. The one thing we humans are truly consistent with, is ignorance of the implications of our actions today on the future.

----------


## tonytiger55

> We'll eventually get there. The Tesla thin panels are rated at 22% efficiency, while commercial thick panel setups can go as high as the 40% range. The expectation is that thin panels suitable for homes will hit 40% in 15 years, with think panels hitting 60% range. That'll triple the output that we're seeing today for the same amount of space. Of course with the move towards medium and high density housing, it greatly increases consumption per sq ft, making solar useless even at 100% efficiency.
> 
> The big one is storage, we need to get better with battery technology. None of the emerging battery techs have panned out yet, just a bunch of bankrupt startups.



Regarding energy storage. Do Electric companies still pump water to higher ground when surplus Electricity is produced?

----------


## rage2

Good article from mashable.

http://mashable.com/2017/08/02/tesla...nch-brilliant/

Pretty much sums up the hilarity that is Tesla. BTW, stock's up today.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Good article from mashable.
> 
> http://mashable.com/2017/08/02/tesla...nch-brilliant/
> 
> Pretty much sums up the hilarity that is Tesla. BTW, stock's up today.




You, much like the author of this tripe, clearly don't understand much of the world, so you certainly don't understand Musk or Tesla.  :Burn Out:

----------


## Xtrema

> I can't wait until we come full circle and find out how driving Teslas is destroying the planet. The one thing we humans are truly consistent with, is ignorance of the implications of our actions today on the future.



https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/no-cobalt-no-tesla/





> Approximately 97 percent of the world’s supply of cobalt comes as a by-product of nickel or copper (mostly out of Africa). Freeport-McMoRan Inc. and Lundin agreed to sell to Chinese players their respective stakes in the Tenke Fungurume mine, one of the largest known cobalt sources, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.



This is now owned by China. That's why China is huge in EV. If the world switched to EV, China will hold more of the world's life line compared to oil and that will also remove USD from being the world currency.

And we all know what short on resources get us in the last 60 years (hint: terrorism)

----------


## rage2

> This is now owned by China. That's why China is huge in EV. If the world switched to EV, China will hold more of the world's life line compared to oil and that will also remove USD from being the world currency.
> 
> And we all know what short on resources get us in the last 60 years (hint: terrorism)



The world won't/can't switch to EV until there's a better battery/energy storage system, in which case we won't be using Lithium Ion, and hence, no need for Cobalt.

Of course, if battery tech doesn't move forward fast enough, then yea, that could be a problem, but not as big as you make it sound.

----------


## Gestalt

> You, much like the author of this tripe, clearly don't understand much of the world, so you certainly don't understand Musk or Tesla.



Im the one with a reading disability, mild dyslexia, and for some reason i cought that the article disagrees with you and your house of cards silliness. And agrees with me that Tesla is a master ceo with a master plan, and knkws how to swim with the big fish and use the stock market to his benefit.

 :facepalm:

----------


## killramos

I'm thinking more something crazy out of the box than that. Like a mass of EV's causing flocks of birds to fall out of the sky from RF pollution or something  :ROFL!: 

- - - Updated - - -




> Tesla is a master ceo with a master plan, and knkws how to swim with the big fish and use the stock market to his benefit.



quoted for lulz

----------


## Xtrema

I hope Toyota has answer to the battery issue we are all facing.

https://wheelscene.com/toyota-solid-state-battery/

A Solid State Battery that will charge in minutes and survive winters makes way more sense that what we got now.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

If the 2018 Nissan Leaf looks anything like the concept, that could be my new Uber ride. Very nice.

Too bad the e-Golf looks like a damn gulf l

----------


## rage2

> I really don't know why Bolt sales are so slow.



Did a bit of reading, and figured out what's going on. GM only did a partial rollout to mostly CARB states, likely for CARB credits. They started the national rollout last month and expect that to complete by end of August. GM's allocation strategy was fucked up. Most states are out of stock, coupled with factory shutdowns, orders are waiting 4-6 weeks for production and delivery. California got the lions share of allocations, but California is a Tesla state (50% of Teslas are sold in California) so demand for the Bolt was weaker than expected. Of the ~1000 Bolts stuck on dealer lots, 800 of them are in California. That's how people are getting Bolts at $23k there. Massive incentives from GM to control inventory. 

The extended factory shutdown wasn't to control inventory, but to shift tooling from the Sonic to the Bolt, which will double Bolt production once it reopens. Currently, Bolt is delivering around 2000 cars a month.

----------


## Maxt

> Did a bit of reading, and figured out what's going on. GM only did a partial rollout to mostly CARB states, likely for CARB credits. They started the national rollout last month and expect that to complete by end of August. GM's allocation strategy was fucked up. Most states are out of stock, coupled with factory shutdowns, orders are waiting 4-6 weeks for production and delivery. California got the lions share of allocations, but California is a Tesla state (50% of Teslas are sold in California) so demand for the Bolt was weaker than expected. Of the ~1000 Bolts stuck on dealer lots, 800 of them are in California. That's how people are getting Bolts at $23k there. Massive incentives from GM to control inventory. 
> 
> The extended factory shutdown wasn't to control inventory, but to shift tooling from the Sonic to the Bolt, which will double Bolt production once it reopens. Currently, Bolt is delivering around 2000 cars a month.



 And a month ago on Autoline, it was said that GM was losing 7500.00-9000.00 usd on every Bolt they produce.

----------


## benyl

Wait, so there "is" a supply problem. Haha  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> And a month ago on Autoline, it was said that GM was losing 7500.00-9000.00 usd on every Bolt they produce.



Basically the game you have to play to stay in California. Just cost of doing business.

That's way better than $14K loss on every Fiat 500e.

----------


## tonytiger55

> Did a bit of reading, and figured out what's going on. GM only did a partial rollout to mostly CARB states, likely for CARB credits. They started the national rollout last month and expect that to complete by end of August. GM's allocation strategy was fucked up. Most states are out of stock, coupled with factory shutdowns, orders are waiting 4-6 weeks for production and delivery. California got the lions share of allocations, but California is a Tesla state (50% of Teslas are sold in California) so demand for the Bolt was weaker than expected. Of the ~1000 Bolts stuck on dealer lots, 800 of them are in California. That's how people are getting Bolts at $23k there. Massive incentives from GM to control inventory. 
> 
> The extended factory shutdown wasn't to control inventory, but to shift tooling from the Sonic to the Bolt, which will double Bolt production once it reopens. Currently, Bolt is delivering around 2000 cars a month.



It could also be branding. Its a GM product. I would not even bother looking at it even though it might be a good car. 
Now if a different logo was slapped on the front... possibly.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Losing money on every car? Sounds like an Elon strategy!



I guess they also have a master CEO. Except GM can only turn hype and vapour into billions by fooling the Government.

----------


## Gestalt

> I guess they also have a master CEO. Except GM can only turn hype and vapour into billions by fooling the Government.



Lets talk next year when the tesla stock is closer to $500 and you can still deny reality.

----------


## Seth1968

> Lets talk next year when the tesla stock is closer to $500 and you can still deny reality.



Woosh.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Seth1968

What is the source of this electric power?

Oh wait, you just plug it in and it's charged by pixie dust.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

You guys dont know where electricty comes from and where it will come from more and more?

Did you know that a modern gas or coal plant maming electricity for an electric car, is still more efficient and prdicues less harmful emissions then an internal combustion engine.

----------


## VWEvo

I feel like I have a unique perspective on all this, given a couple facts. Firstly, I'm still very pro ICE, and will always own a 500+HP ICE car. Secondly, I loved jumping on Sugarphreaks bandwagon and bashing Teslas and their fanboys. (Im sure if you dug out my old posts you will see that I doubted Tesla as much as anyone and used similar arguments as SugarPhreak.) Lastly, my unique perspective on this whole argument is that I actually have now owned a Tesla since October.





> Oh look, Telsa spent a bunch of their investors money on an idea that will take forever to be implemented... gee what a surprise
> 
> 
> Telsa is the gold standard in boldly going after an idea without financially thinking it through, and then having it return poor results, and then trying to make up for it with hype
> 
> 
> I see model X's all the time in Van, and they are one of the ugliest cars ever made, totally unworthy of the price tag on it. I'd honestly have a hard time choosing between a Pontiac Aztec and a Model X... probably go with the Pontiac, at least it is more useful in real life



I'll agree with you here, I don't find my Model X very attractive and it certainly doesn't churn my wheel the way my X5M does. With that being said, its probably the best car we have ever owned. That makes it pretty easy to get over its Fugly design.




> How has Telsa changed the world? The only people that drive them are the 1%... they are a novelty company with no real impact on anything



You are correct, only the "1%" drive them. They are absolutely overpriced, but thats pretty much the case with any new technologies. If the expectation was from day 1 to have an electric car with 400+km range, and all the tech it currently has at half the price, the technology would have never gotten off the ground to eventually make it available to the masses. I know I'm probably sounding like a Tesla fanboy with that statement, but tell me the alternative. As for not having any impact? Tesla arguably is the sole reason every auto manufacturer has had to change its strategy around EV's and move up production of all their full EV's. 




> The reviews of EV's on any sort of meaningful trip always ends up the same... they end up fixating on how not to get stranded for the whole review. I mean really... I played that game with my first car I bought for $300, always wondering if it would break down and leave me stranded. Why the hell would anybody spend the kind of money they are asking for an EV to drive around biting your nails all the time?
> 
> Talk to anybody that owns a pure EV, and the will have a story about how they tried to visit a neighboring district that should have easily been within range and barely made it. 
> 
> Pure EV is a stupid concept for granola munchers



SugarPhreak, this is where unfortunately you look like a buffoon. WTF are you talking about. Trust me, if you have a bias and hate on towards EV's, you'll cling on to the is argument forever. I know when I had a hate on for Tesla, this is all that I would talk about. Since owning our EV since October, this has never ever once been an issue. "Talk to anybody that owns a pure EV, and they will have a story about how they tried to visit a neighbouring district that should have easily been in range and barely made it".. STFU!!! I know a tonne of Tesla owners, I haven't even met one. Can this happen? Absolutely!!! EV cars are no different than ICE. When my X5M says i have less than 100km's left in my tank, if I throw it in M2 mode and start gunning it around and doing pedal to the metal accelerations, I won't actually end up with 100km's fuel left. EV's are the same. Now being an EV owner, i do find it super funny to read all these stupid arguments that only come from people that don't own or have never really experienced an EV. The only reason I even bother to comment is just in case someone actually starts to believe these statements. Now is it nice to pull up to a gas station and put 400km's of fuel into my car in 10 minutes, absolutely. Is it nicer to leave my garage every morning with a full tank and never every worry about finding a gas station.....even better. 

In any event, please continue on this discussion, the Calgary Herald was boring this morning and this was a great read, although mostly comical. I'm not commenting on the stock market and all that shit, because I know as much about stocks as 98.5% of the beyonders on here........which is pretty much nothing. (I don't own the stock, although I wish I did when this thread first started)

----------


## VWEvo

http://www.sciencealert.com/tesla-s-...-say-reviewers

----------


## Gestalt

Of course the initial Tesla were for the 1%. Brilliant move my Musk marketing. The first obstacle was convincing everyone that electric cars could be bad ass and reliable not oversized golf carts and leafs. Virtually unlimited performance, a 5000 pound luxury family car as fast as exotics. Tesla purposely did this and succeeded in a huge way to the point where gas cars are now underdogs in terms of performance.

People started talking about it, other car makers saw the potential the stigma is gone. Now the move to the affordable 99% cars.

----------


## Gestalt



----------


## rage2

> SugarPhreak, this is where unfortunately you look like a buffoon. WTF are you talking about.



I think SP's perspective comes from EVs that aren't Tesla's, as well as early Teslas with the smaller batteries that had range issues. Commuting in the US generally requires much larger distances than us here, so there are a lot more marginal use cases than someone in Calgary. That's where we've heard the stories from owners and media over the years. Tesla with the supercharger network even in Canada coupled with the larger batteries have pretty much solved range anxiety. But that's only Tesla. Even the Bolt won't make a good road trip car due to slow charging network here even though it has good range. 

Of course there's small exceptions like mine where even the Model S doesn't work well for me in terms of range, but it's the exception and not the rule.

----------


## VWEvo

> I think SP's perspective comes from EVs that aren't Tesla's, as well as early Teslas with the smaller batteries that had range issues. Commuting in the US generally requires much larger distances than us here, so there are a lot more marginal use cases than someone in Calgary. That's where we've heard the stories from owners and media over the years. Tesla with the supercharger network even in Canada coupled with the larger batteries have pretty much solved range anxiety. But that's only Tesla. Even the Bolt won't make a good road trip car due to slow charging network here even though it has good range. 
> 
> Of course there's small exceptions like mine where even the Model S doesn't work well for me in terms of range, but it's the exception and not the rule.



Fair enough, but using an old argument currently is pointless. Elon said by the end of next year they will triple the current supercharger network. I can even go to the Marriott downtown , charge and park for free whenever I want. 

I guess I'm curious, what about the model s doesn't work in terms of range (100d is 540 km's on a single charge)


If someone argued to me that they are overpriced, that I would agree with.

----------


## VWEvo

Repost

----------


## rage2

> I guess I'm curious, what about the model s doesn't work in terms of range (100d is 540 km's on a single charge)
> 
> 
> If someone argued to me that they are overpriced, that I would agree with.



I sent you a PM with the details last year, but the gist is a 440km round trip trek to get to a supercharger. Winter and grocery runs will put that well over the edge from my estimates. 

And ya, price is an issue too haha.

----------


## Xtrema

> I guess I'm curious, what about the model s doesn't work in terms of range (100d is 540 km's on a single charge)



All EVs are fine if you stay in town, even better if one invested in a 240V charger at home.

Here's the problem with Tesla. You really lose the freedom when you have to go out of town. You will always have to be sure you are absolute close to a supercharger enroute or plan a stay close to one or has one. And make sure you plan a 30min-1hr break in every 200-400km. That's where the range anxiety comes in for me. 

And if you want all the creature comfort (ac in summer and heat in winter) your 540km range quickly become 300km. 

On top of that, while EV becoming more common, you are dealing with 3 type of DC fast charging. Making finding the right plug and charge at right speed a hassle. God forbid if you only have access to 110V and get like 5-7km range/hr.

Nobody really need gas car for daily commute. I do around 300-400km per week and I know I can charge at home for at least 8hr per night. EV is the perfect 90% car. But I will still need something else for that 10% based on current EV tech and infrastructure.

----------


## VWEvo

> All EVs are fine if you stay in town, even better if one invested in a 240V charger at home.
> 
> Here's the problem with Tesla. You really lose the freedom when you have to go out of town. You will always have to be sure you are absolute close to a supercharger enroute or plan a stay close to one or has one. And make sure you plan a 30min-1hr break in every 200-400km. That's where the range anxiety comes in for me. 
> 
> And if you want all the creature comfort (ac in summer and heat in winter) your 540km range quickly become 300km. 
> 
> On top of that, while EV becoming more common, you are dealing with 3 type of DC fast charging. Making finding the right plug and charge at right speed a hassle. God forbid if you only have access to 110V and get like 5-7km range/hr.
> 
> Nobody really need gas car for daily commute. I do around 300-400km per week and I know I can charge at home for at least 8hr per night. EV is the perfect 90% car. But I will still need something else for that 10% based on current EV tech and infrastructure.



I kinda see your point, but only marginally!! Yes turning on a/c, driving in winter does lower your range, but not by as much as your stating. We've driven to kelowna on great comfortable drive. The easiest best drive I've ever had becuase of autopilot. Did I have to stop and charge, yes, but it's a small price to pay since my kids wanted to eat and I got a full charge for free!! Again, all the arguments are being quickly laid to rest as more supercharger are built and as the range and technology get even better. Don't worry, as much as I want to convince more people to get these cars, I'm equally happy to have empty superchargers and amazing parking available at CrossIron Mills. ;p

----------


## killramos

So far seen a disappointingly small number of teslas in SF. Took me until nearly noon day 2 to find one! Lots of V8's though. M's and AMG's everywhere.

I guess all the Teslas are at home charging or something.

I think the Californians are lying to us...

----------


## ZenOps

For the money you save on a fillup, its probably worth it to buy a nice lunch and stretch it out for an hour on that cross country trip.

For really long distances, that's what planes are for. Weekend trip to the mountains? Yeah, that you might have to find someone with a combustion engine.

----------


## ianmcc

> So far seen a disappointingly small number of teslas in SF. Took me until nearly noon day 2 to find one! Lots of V8's though. M's and AMG's everywhere.
> 
> I guess all the Teslas are at home charging or something.
> 
> I think the Californians are lying to us...



My latest trip to Seattle/Redmond I counted at least 13 that I spotted-12 Model S and one X. 
Actually expected more around the Microsoft campus.

----------


## rage2

You won't spot too many in SF. Head outside to the burbs, Pablo Alto every 5 cars is a Tesla haha.

----------


## killramos

See that's more like what I was expecting. Heading to Napa today and I think I will have more luck.

Napa is in range right?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Maxt

The average ICE driving public aren't the ones I've heard talking shit about Teslas... Most of the negativity I have heard on the car are from car industry analysts and from Tesla owners past and present... 
If a lot of the City's current council gets back in, you'll probably see mass buy in, in the City's passenger car fleet proclaiming the savings, and subsequent 15% property tax increase..  :Smilie:

----------


## Gestalt

> The average ICE driving public aren't the ones I've heard talking shit about Teslas... Most of the negativity I have heard on the car are from car industry analysts and from Tesla owners past and present... 
> If a lot of the City's current council gets back in, you'll probably see mass buy in, in the City's passenger car fleet proclaiming the savings, and subsequent 15% property tax increase..



What are you talking about? Car industry loves everything Tesla. Tesla owners are the biggest fan bois. Every test, review is mostly glowing.

Take this thread. Onky haters are non owners and people thag dont knkw much about them, exaggerating problems, range, issues and making things up.. An actual tesla owner loves his. My boss loves his, and my wife loves hers and she wont even have it for 2 years  :ROFL!:

----------


## Maxt

> What are you talking about? Car industry loves everything Tesla. Tesla owners are the biggest fan bois. Every test, review is mostly glowing.
> 
> Take this thread. Onky haters are non owners and people thag dont knkw much about them, exaggerating problems, range, issues and making things up.. An actual tesla owner loves his. My boss loves his, and my wife loves hers and she wont even have it for 2 years



 No the car industry doesn't love everything Tesla, you can go back and watch some dozens of Autoline after hours with analysts pointing out all the issues with the company and the cars.. Even the last one, where CARB, who is basically subsidizing Tesla, admitted they presently have no environmental strategy or framework yet for dealing with the battery recycling issues, while they aid the company in pumping out cars...They didn't want to say it, but they are basically turning a blind eye towards the EV industry especially Tesla, in fact they are more less totally relying on Tesla to deal with it themselves, which could be a problem if it doesn't have the cash to do so as the batteries start to pile up. 
The next giant issue isn't Tesla specific, but at some point if Tesla and other EV cars aren't paying gasoline taxes to maintain roads, its been brought up that the only way to do this is to come up with a monthly road tax charge for ev owners or a big toll when registering. I read that houses may have to start having a different check meter for automotive electrical use. 
Some Tesla owners are total fanboys, like the guy at the High River car show a few years ago that was physically accosting people so he could gush on about his Tesla with almost religious fervor. Yeah there are creeps like that I've met...The other thing I've been told from another owner is not to bother going on Tesla forums to read about how to deal with problems, because the rest of members won't admit to having any, which I found to be pretty damn funny at the time... 
But there are also people i've met that check all boxes of what you think a Tesla owner should be like, that are at times, pretty pissed off with the car and its idiosyncrasies. One owner I met was extremely ticked with the financial hit and the way the insurance company had to deal with his accident..Although as Rage2 points out there are facilities getting approval now to do repairs, so that gripe should not be common anymore, maybe in smaller centres.. And the range in this climate is still an issue, the regional paper out here did a few articles on EV use by some rural owners, where the owners fully admitted its not a long commute car in cold weather in stop and go traffic, its still a seasonal appliance for them.

----------


## Gestalt

> No the car industry doesn't love everything Tesla, you can go back and watch some dozens of Autoline after hours with analysts pointing out all the issues with the company and the cars.. Even the last one, where CARB, who is basically subsidizing Tesla, admitted they presently have no environmental strategy or framework yet for dealing with the battery recycling issues, while they aid the company in pumping out cars...They didn't want to say it, but they are basically turning a blind eye towards the EV industry especially Tesla, in fact they are more less totally relying on Tesla to deal with it themselves, which could be a problem if it doesn't have the cash to do so as the batteries start to pile up. 
> The next giant issue isn't Tesla specific, but at some point if Tesla and other EV cars aren't paying gasoline taxes to maintain roads, its been brought up that the only way to do this is to come up with a monthly road tax charge for ev owners or a big toll when registering. I read that houses may have to start having a different check meter for automotive electrical use. 
> Some Tesla owners are total fanboys, like the guy at the High River car show a few years ago that was physically accosting people so he could gush on about his Tesla with almost religious fervor. Yeah there are creeps like that I've met...The other thing I've been told from another owner is not to bother going on Tesla forums to read about how to deal with problems, because the rest of members won't admit to having any, which I found to be pretty damn funny at the time... 
> But there are also people i've met that check all boxes of what you think a Tesla owner should be like, that are at times, pretty pissed off with the car and its idiosyncrasies. One owner I met was extremely ticked with the financial hit and the way the insurance company had to deal with his accident..Although as Rage2 points out there are facilities getting approval now to do repairs, so that gripe should not be common anymore, maybe in smaller centres.. And the range in this climate is still an issue, the regional paper out here did a few articles on EV use by some rural owners, where the owners fully admitted its not a long commute car in cold weather in stop and go traffic, its still a seasonal appliance for them.



All that nonsense and imaginibgs has what to do with Tesla? We havent figured out a gas tax, clearly thats a teala issue? My boss drives his p85d all winter for the last few years. You know whats odd? Never ran out of gas.

We get it. You are a hater. The moon is full. Blame tesla.

----------


## Maxt

> All that nonsense and imaginibgs has what to do with Tesla? We havent figured out a gas tax, clearly thats a teala issue? My boss drives his p85d all winter for the last few years. You know whats odd? Never ran out of gas.
> 
> We get it. You are a hater. The moon is full. Blame tesla.



 Actually we get it you'e another Kool aid drinker.

----------


## VWEvo

> No the car industry doesn't love everything Tesla, you can go back and watch some dozens of Autoline after hours with analysts pointing out all the issues with the company and the cars.. Even the last one, where CARB, who is basically subsidizing Tesla, admitted they presently have no environmental strategy or framework yet for dealing with the battery recycling issues, while they aid the company in pumping out cars...They didn't want to say it, but they are basically turning a blind eye towards the EV industry especially Tesla, in fact they are more less totally relying on Tesla to deal with it themselves, which could be a problem if it doesn't have the cash to do so as the batteries start to pile up. 
> The next giant issue isn't Tesla specific, but at some point if Tesla and other EV cars aren't paying gasoline taxes to maintain roads, its been brought up that the only way to do this is to come up with a monthly road tax charge for ev owners or a big toll when registering. I read that houses may have to start having a different check meter for automotive electrical use. 
> Some Tesla owners are total fanboys, like the guy at the High River car show a few years ago that was physically accosting people so he could gush on about his Tesla with almost religious fervor. Yeah there are creeps like that I've met...The other thing I've been told from another owner is not to bother going on Tesla forums to read about how to deal with problems, because the rest of members won't admit to having any, which I found to be pretty damn funny at the time... 
> But there are also people i've met that check all boxes of what you think a Tesla owner should be like, that are at times, pretty pissed off with the car and its idiosyncrasies. One owner I met was extremely ticked with the financial hit and the way the insurance company had to deal with his accident..Although as Rage2 points out there are facilities getting approval now to do repairs, so that gripe should not be common anymore, maybe in smaller centres.. And the range in this climate is still an issue, the regional paper out here did a few articles on EV use by some rural owners, where the owners fully admitted its not a long commute car in cold weather in stop and go traffic, its still a seasonal appliance for them.



Clearly your post has a lot of claims, perhaps it would have more credibility if you post articles and links to half of what you said. Otherwise its just hearsay from another person stuck making the same arguments from 3 years ago. 

As for range in the winter, again your making claims without any first hand experience at all. You figure someone like myself would perhaps have actually real world experience with this. Yes, the range goes down, and for daily commuting in the city it is an absolute non issue. However, if traveling on the highways, it just means not skipping a supercharger to top off the charge. I did Calgary to Golden in February, and it we weren't remotely close to having any range problems. I probably could have easily skipped Canmore, but it took 10-15 mins to top up my charge (free!!!), and its right by the Tim Hortons where I got my Steeped Tea anyways. The car isn't perfect. The service prior to the service station opening sucked, especially for a luxury car. However, thats a non issue anymore since the Service Centre opened. 
,

----------


## rage2

> As for range in the winter, again your making claims without any first hand experience at all. You figure someone like myself would perhaps have actually real world experience with this. Yes, the range goes down, and for daily commuting in the city it is an absolute non issue. However, if traveling on the highways, it just means not skipping a supercharger to top off the charge. I did Calgary to Golden in February, and it we weren't remotely close to having any range problems. I probably could have easily skipped Canmore, but it took 10-15 mins to top up my charge (free!!!), and its right by the Tim Hortons where I got my Steeped Tea anyways. The car isn't perfect. The service prior to the service station opening sucked, especially for a luxury car. However, thats a non issue anymore since the Service Centre opened. 
> ,



For in city, I'm going to assume you have a heated garage? The range issues that I've heard first hand from owners are the ones that park outside, or in a cold garage. Not that it really matters, dropping range from 400km to 250km in the worst case is still enough for a Calgary commute.

There is *some* truth though to what Maxt is saying. The media has a positive bias towards Tesla, so you'll find a lot of issues that get buried, so it's quite difficult to do proper research on it. Consumer Reports did note that Tesla ranks at the bottom of the reliability rankings, but other than a week of coverage, that's mainly been buried, while positive Tesla news is recycled for months on end. If the Model 3 does make Tesla ownership mainstream and doesn't improve on the Model S/X reliability, we might see a shift in media coverage.

----------


## VWEvo

> For in city, I'm going to assume you have a heated garage? The range issues that I've heard first hand from owners are the ones that park outside, or in a cold garage. Not that it really matters, dropping range from 400km to 250km in the worst case is still enough for a Calgary commute.
> 
> There is *some* truth though to what Maxt is saying. The media has a positive bias towards Tesla, so you'll find a lot of issues that get buried, so it's quite difficult to do proper research on it. Consumer Reports did note that Tesla ranks at the bottom of the reliability rankings, but other than a week of coverage, that's mainly been buried, while positive Tesla news is recycled for months on end. If the Model 3 does make Tesla ownership mainstream and doesn't improve on the Model S/X reliability, we might see a shift in media coverage.



I'll agree about the positive bias. To be honest, if you spent time on the forums there are guys that have had issues with their cars. Like i mentioned, the service for the first 6 months was garbage with Tesla. However, I'm not sure its much different with other cars. When I used to be on the VW and BMW forums I used to see similar complaints about their cars and the way the dealership would deal with. Tesla has growing pains thats for sure. But given how long this company has existed, its actually pretty amazing they have created the infrastructure they have in such a short period of time. Calgary getting a service centre is so nice, not to mention most of the loaners there are either Model X/S P100D's.

----------


## zhao

> All that nonsense and imaginibgs has what to do with Tesla? We havent figured out a gas tax, clearly thats a teala issue? My boss drives his p85d all winter for the last few years. You know whats odd? Never ran out of gas.
> 
> We get it. You are a hater. The moon is full. Blame tesla.



You didn't read anything he said did you? Not one sentence came off as being a hater in that entire post.

Not figuring out a gas tax, and eventually removing any rebate EV's get = they will cost a lot more than they currently do to drive someday. The government gets a huge ass chuck of money from ICE's because of gas taxes, and if that disappears its going to come from something else. Not figuring out what to do with these batteries is another issue. Ignoring that, while saying how much money you save and how bad ICE's are for the environment is asinine.

RIght now you can charge your vehicle for free or cheaply, and get special parking stalls.... but if EV's become mainstream that is going to go the way of the dodo pretty quick.

----------


## Seth1968

> Not figuring out what to do with these batteries is another issue.



In regards to the batteries, what's the warranty, how much failure of them is required to get replaced under warranty, and how much is it to replace them outside of warranty?

----------


## rage2

> I'll agree about the positive bias. To be honest, if you spent time on the forums there are guys that have had issues with their cars. Like i mentioned, the service for the first 6 months was garbage with Tesla. However, I'm not sure its much different with other cars. When I used to be on the VW and BMW forums I used to see similar complaints about their cars and the way the dealership would deal with. Tesla has growing pains thats for sure. But given how long this company has existed, its actually pretty amazing they have created the infrastructure they have in such a short period of time. Calgary getting a service centre is so nice, not to mention most of the loaners there are either Model X/S P100D's.



The difference is the number of problems to the number of cars, which is what Consumer Reports found. Basically, buying a Tesla, your chance of having issues is much higher than almost every other brand. If they have problems with the small number of cars now, what happens when the 3 gets wide market release? It all hinges on Model 3 needing traditional manufacturer's level of quality.




> In regards to the batteries, what's the warranty, how much failure of them is required to get replaced under warranty, and how much is it to replace them outside of warranty?



Battery life hasn't been an issue at all. That's the one thing that Tesla has done a really good job on, the reliability of the battery packs. 8 year warranty, so nobody knows how much a replacement costs yet since Model S's aren't 8 years old yet.

Tesla Roadster, replacement cost was around $40K USD.

----------


## Maxt

> Clearly your post has a lot of claims, perhaps it would have more credibility if you post articles and links to half of what you said. Otherwise its just hearsay from another person stuck making the same arguments from 3 years ago. 
> 
> As for range in the winter, again your making claims without any first hand experience at all. You figure someone like myself would perhaps have actually real world experience with this. Yes, the range goes down, and for daily commuting in the city it is an absolute non issue. However, if traveling on the highways, it just means not skipping a supercharger to top off the charge. I did Calgary to Golden in February, and it we weren't remotely close to having any range problems. I probably could have easily skipped Canmore, but it took 10-15 mins to top up my charge (free!!!), and its right by the Tim Hortons where I got my Steeped Tea anyways. The car isn't perfect. The service prior to the service station opening sucked, especially for a luxury car. However, thats a non issue anymore since the Service Centre opened. 
> ,



 Here's the catch, I can't have any first hand experience with an EV because there currently isn't one that could fully replace any of my daily drivers 100% without some sort of penalty, be it time, or financial trying to fit into my work/lifestyle requirements. 
I run into a lot of people on job sites and I'll talk cars while working, I don't care if they own a Tesla or a Renault, its always interesting, if you don't want to hear that some Tesla owner isn't wearing a permagrin, that's up to you..
I live in a rural area, we get 3-4 regional on paper publications in the mail every month, they really don't have any kind of online presence, most of the articles are about photography of indigenous Alberta plants and Aunt Martha's bake sale, but once in a while there is something interesting in them, like rural to city commuting with an EV. The one guy that had no issues was a guy that worked in at the same place everyday, same mileage, no randomness in work , and A to B, B to A guy. The cars totally make sense for those people in terms of usage, financially, right now, not so sure, but I am the last person to want to dictate what people should drive. The other guy was in a profession with random trips out of his office to sites, and was making side trips with his kids later on in the day and noted that range was still an issue and inconvenience for him.. Probably a guy that a hybrid or plug in hybrid would be more useful to.
Zhao's post covers a lot of what the future worry should be. 
There are 300+ episodes of Autoline on youtube, with interviews of people that have full time jobs analyzing the auto industry, where its going and what the current issues are..

----------


## rage2

> The one guy that had no issues was a guy that worked in at the same place everyday, same mileage, no randomness in work , and A to B, B to A guy. The cars totally make sense for those people in terms of usage, financially, right now, not so sure, but I am the last person to want to dictate what people should drive. The other guy was in a profession with random trips out of his office to sites, and was making side trips with his kids later on in the day and noted that range was still an issue and inconvenience for him.. Probably a guy that a hybrid or plug in hybrid would be more useful to.



This is actually a very interesting point. I'm in India right now, and was doing up some night time reading on EV's and self driving out here, and there's a cab company here that have an all EVs fleet.

http://www.project-lithium.com/

A cab company is your #2 case right there in terms of randomness, and they too struggled with making it work with EVs. What they did was set the model to corporate employee travels only, and any company that signs up must have charging stations installed at the office, thereby creating semi consistent routes and timings to have downtime for charging the EVs. This works here because a huge market for cabs is employee travel, which is typically covered by the company especially during night shift work to coincide with NA daytime hours for reasons of safety.

----------


## Gestalt

> This is actually a very interesting point. I'm in India right now, and was doing up some night time reading on EV's and self driving out here, and there's a cab company here that have an all EVs fleet.
> 
> http://www.project-lithium.com/
> 
> A cab company is your #2 case right there in terms of randomness, and they too struggled with making it work with EVs. What they did was set the model to corporate employee travels only, and any company that signs up must have charging stations installed at the office, thereby creating semi consistent routes and timings to have downtime for charging the EVs. This works here because a huge market for cabs is employee travel, which is typically covered by the company especially during night shift work to coincide with NA daytime hours for reasons of safety.



What's an electric Tata worth over there? $5000 usd equivalent? Could be good busoness shipping them hear.

----------


## rage2

Back to Tesla's financial health. They raised $1.4b 5 months ago. That's long gone. Now they're offering junk bonds looking to raise another $1.5b.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1AN13I

9th time the charm?  :crazy nut:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Back to Tesla's financial health. They raised $1.4b 5 months ago. That's long gone. Now they're offering junk bonds looking to raise another $1.5b.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1AN13I
> 
> 9th time the charm?



And for the people who actually read, this is my point. The company is a house of cards, I'll be amazed if it's here in 5 years, let alone 10. 

You can only go to the well so many times. If you happen to be reaping rewards off the swings, I couldn't be happier for you but at some point this ship has to sink.

----------


## tonytiger55

> This is actually a very interesting point. I'm in India right now, and was doing up some night time reading on EV's and self driving out here, and there's a cab company here that have an all EVs fleet.
> 
> http://www.project-lithium.com/
> 
> A cab company is your #2 case right there in terms of randomness, and they too struggled with making it work with EVs. What they did was set the model to corporate employee travels only, and any company that signs up must have charging stations installed at the office, thereby creating semi consistent routes and timings to have downtime for charging the EVs. This works here because a huge market for cabs is employee travel, which is typically covered by the company especially during night shift work to coincide with NA daytime hours for reasons of safety.



Does the self driving work there...? If so, does the computer track the cows in the road..?[Serious]

----------


## rage2

> Does the self driving work there...? If so, does the computer track the cows in the road..?[Serious]



Haha no. Autopilot relies on sets of rules so that it can follow those rules. There are no rules here on the road. My guess it would stay stationary in the city and just not move as everyone else forces their way forward. 

It might work on the highway, until it encounters a dirt break in the highway where it'll plow through it flat out. Not sure how it would handle the random tree growing in the middle of the highway either.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Stock priced jumped a lot on the junk bond news, because no dilution in the next round of fund raising. If this round is successful, they'll have $4.5b of cash on hand. They're expecting a $2b cash burn for 2H so unless they sell 200k Model 3's before the end of the year(40k ASP, 20% GPM = $1.6b) they'll need to raise money again around Christmas/new years. If they dip below $2b of cash, it gets into pretty dangerous territory.

----------


## Gestalt

> Junk bonds... lol
> 
> This is surely the last hurrah for Tesla before it all comes down
> 
> 
> I predict they get bought out by either Nissan, Ford or GM within 3 years



Maybe. But with a market cap like that, its gonna be hard.

Musk may sell. 4 years ago when people werre still predicting iminant tesla faiulure, musk siad he wasn't going anywhere at least until the model 3 came out or other auto makers embraced his vision.


http://insideevs.com/musk-vows-that-...ghter-arrives/

----------


## Maxt

In Lee Iacocca's book, he talks about how its easy to burn through huge amounts of cash in an automobile company. You see these numbers in billion's that they have as cash, and you think wow thats a lot of money, it should last awhile... I am sure its gotten cheaper with CAD and virtual stress testing, but in Iacocca's time, they would burn up millions redesigning a mirror to fit the body line better, which which would burn up money redesigning the tooling to change the holes in the door skin to hold it, and then burn up money changing the mirror controls etc etc. Every little change in a car has some cascading money eating effect down the line, and sometimes they don't have choice in the change if a bad design pops after awhile, and then the cost of the retro fix. Dollars, dollars, dollars...

----------


## VWEvo

> Junk bonds... lol
> 
> This is surely the last hurrah for Tesla before it all comes down
> 
> 
> 
> I predict they get bought out by either Nissan, Ford or GM within 3 years



Yes, because you've so far very accurately predicted Tesla's future so well over the last couple of years, lol!!! I hope you don't invest in stocks!!

----------


## killramos

> Yes, because you've so far very accurately predicted Tesla's future so well over the last couple of years, lol!!! I hope you don't invest in stocks!!



Whether or not you like their cars, they are no closer to being a sustainable company today than they were 2 years ago. In fact I think they might even be further. Whole different ballgame being a niche player selling toys to the rich than running a mass market manufacturing business. I think they could have made things come around by just selling 100k+ luxury vehicles with high margins to pay off their massive R&D spending. I mean there has to be SOME per unit profit when they are selling model S and X's for over 200 grand...

I just don't think the 3 could possibly be that much less expensive to make.

It's the whole "Tesla is going to drive every other automaker out of business" mentality that is a crazy eye roll.

----------


## Gestalt

> Yes, because you've so far very accurately predicted Tesla's future so well over the last couple of years, lol!!! I hope you don't invest in stocks!!



My wife read this fools bolg called greater fool. The guy that writes it has been predicted the iminent crash of the housing market for years. Overcoming his bad advice was the number one obstacle getting my wife to invest in property now.

Can you imagine the millions he cost the people in vanvouver and Toronto that listened to him 3 years ago? Dont be house horny, selland rent. Lol

Tesla will be the same for people that still think stock markets are build on reelity. In a few years Tesla stock will beknocking on $1000. And the same people will be predicting his doom, like they did 10, 4, 2 years ago. And today.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## benyl

> Personally I think that Vancouver and Toronto markets are both bubbles, and we will probably see some sort of major correction on one point.



Do you see an "Imminent Housing crash?"  :Wink: 

https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/391...+housing+crash

----------


## suntan

> My wife read this fools bolg called greater fool. The guy that writes it has been predicted the iminent crash of the housing market for years. Overcoming his bad advice was the number one obstacle getting my wife to invest in property now.
> 
> Can you imagine the millions he cost the people in vanvouver and Toronto that listened to him 3 years ago? Dont be house horny, selland rent. Lol
> 
> Tesla will be the same for people that still think stock markets are build on reelity. In a few years Tesla stock will beknocking on $1000. And the same people will be predicting his doom, like they did 10, 4, 2 years ago. And today.



Sugarphreak has admitted many times he sucks at stock picking.

You on the other hand think you actually have a brain.

----------


## Gestalt

> Do you see an "Imminent Housing crash?" 
> 
> https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/391...+housing+crash



So he's always been like this? 



> ^ It's the usual doom and gloom coming from Sugarphreak.






> Sugarphreak has admitted many times he sucks at stock picking.
> 
> You on the other hand think you actually have a brain.



so he knows he's no good at it but keep commenting?

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> so he knows he's no good at it but keep commenting?



Are you not able to break down conversation into its separate talking points and understand the difference between them? The cars, the stock values and the long term solvency and stability of the company are not the same conversation.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

You bought FAP. Your argument is invalid  :Smilie:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ganesh

> Are you not able to break down conversation into its separate talking points and understand the difference between them? The cars, the stock values and the long term solvency and stability of the company are not the same conversation.



Tesla is working on it  :Smilie:

----------


## killramos

I am still pretty sure Gestalt thinks the name of their CEO is Mr. Tesla  :ROFL!:

----------


## suntan

I thought the CEO's name was Tes La.

----------


## Xtrema

> I thought the CEO's name was Tes La.



He's Malaysian?

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Fun read. 

http://business.financialpost.com/op...4-03105e49a514

----------


## benyl

> Fun read. 
> 
> http://business.financialpost.com/op...4-03105e49a514




 :Bullshit!:

----------


## Gestalt

Emailed Tesla last night for info on the powerwall and solar roof..

Now back to jrscoolaids and sf's fake news.

----------


## dirtsniffer

I thought tesla was supposed to be fast. Can't even keep up to a dodge.

----------


## suntan

> 



How is this false? Basically without direct cash being paid to consumers the whole electric car model falls apart.

Also, unless service stations are going to have 2000 amp service with an electrical cord the thickness of your calf, you won't be able to charge your car in 5 minutes.

----------


## rage2

> How is this false? Basically without direct cash being paid to consumers the whole electric car model falls apart.



Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. 

Anyways, it's the same situation in Canada as well. 





Alberta has no rebates (4th place) but we have (had) money to spend to feel better about ourselves.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## bjstare

> Emailed Tesla last night for info on the powerwall and solar roof..



You know you can google that stuff, right?

----------


## R-Audi

> Just pretend you are investor... he will send the helicopter for you, and show you a world of imagination!

----------


## benyl

> Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.



Elon isn't selling fake wares, just like Trump isn't denouncing the alt-right.

What I find interesting is that Gestalt was likely against the whole "Too big to fail bailouts" and was likely against the bailouts of GM and the like, but is more than happy to support Tesla and their fake industry.

While I believe that electric is the future, when and how we get there shouldn't be on the backs of taxpayers. Especially when it only caters to rich people right now. You'd think that Gestalt would be all over the fact that poor taxpayers are subsiding toys for the rich that can afford Tesla's products.

----------


## zhao

^ not exactly apples to apples comparing bailouts. 

Governments giving incentives to make developing sketchy unproven tech less risky and propping up half dead companies making dinosaurs no one wanted are two different things

----------


## Gestalt

First, Tesla subsidues versus companies naking dinisaures. Here https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla...-oil-industry/

We still subsudize this dirty technology and its blood.

As for being a fake industry.

I live and breath and bleed cars. I fix them 9 hours a day. Then fix family cars at night.They are a failure. After 150 years, we are still jnder 40% efficiencies. Terrible reliability. Most quite unsafe. You might as well take 100 litres of gas, and spill 60 on he ground and light it on fire. Its embarrassin that this is acceptable to anyone.

A fake car company shows up and within a few years has an electric thats 90% efgicient, ways 5000 pounds and creams supercars, seats 7, and drives itself.

----------


## benyl

> First, Tesla subsidues versus companies naking dinisaures. Here https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla...-oil-industry/
> 
> We still subsudize this dirty technology and its blood.
> 
> As for being a fake industry.



Meh, I don't really have an opinion about the subsidies. I am just stirring shit.

I want a P100D, but I can't justify the price. I have no problem paying more for something, but $200K is ridiculous.

That being said, that Electrek article fails to mention the timeframe of when those subsidies for big oil and the car makers were made.

For instance, solar city and exxon. The subsidies for solar city are more than double what they are for exxon for nearly the same number of subsidies. Solar City likely has not been around long enough for a bailout, so I don't know why we are comparing them. As the author says, it is disingenuous to make the comparison of a relatively nascent business (Solar City) and one that has been around for much longer.

I'd love to see a run rate in a graph for when and how each of these subsidies and loans were granted over time with highlights of when financial meltdowns have occurred.

There is also another factor to consider when talk about bailouts. Employees. FCA, GM and Ford employ 650K people directly. I can't imagine how many people indirectly. Letting them fail would likely have massive effects, not only for the big 3, but all the industries that supply them. By contrast, Tesla has 33K employees. If it fails, there will be fallout, but I would suggest 10x less than if one of the big 3 fails.

My opinion is that I hope Tesla succeeds. Fossil fuel cars are not the future, that is clear.

----------


## Gestalt

> Meh, I don't really have an opinion about the subsidies. I am just stirring shit.
> 
> I want a P100D, but I can't justify the price. I have no problem paying more for something, but $200K is ridiculous.
> 
> That being said, that Electrek article fails to mention the timeframe of when those subsidies for big oil and the car makers were made.
> 
> For instance, solar city and exxon. The subsidies for solar city are more than double what they are for exxon for nearly the same number of subsidies. Solar City likely has not been around long enough for a bailout, so I don't know why we are comparing them. As the author says, it is disingenuous to make the comparison of a relatively nascent business (Solar City) and one that has been around for much longer.
> 
> I'd love to see a run rate in a graph for when and how each of these subsidies and loans were granted over time with highlights of when financial meltdowns have occurred.
> ...



The point is these 150 year old industries are still subsidized and bailed out. And received even more in their birth. And billions in the 40s and 50s especially 70s.

If an industry needs hand outs after 150 years. Its a tail.

Teslas are expensive and with our exchange crazily so. But a junker german car like the wifes can be similar price, and is a throw away after the short warranty period with much higber maintnence and fuel costs and the tesla is a better car in every way. The purpose of the model s was putely to smash the overgrown electic golf cart image. It was successful. Growing uo i wanted a Ferrari. Kids my wife teaches want a Tesla. That is a cultural changing.

----------


## Xtrema

> I want a P100D, but I can't justify the price. I have no problem paying more for something, but $200K is ridiculous.



For $230K, the Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-hybrid is way better "car" than Tesla P100D. And you can run 50km on battery alone up to 140km/h.

And the non-turbo one is only $150K.

Or course, sky is the limit on options when it comes to Porsche.

----------


## ganesh

When is Tesla coming up with a spell checker  :Smilie: 
On the note of Porsche, I saw this in the Macan forum this morning, 
http://www.macanforum.com/forum/othe...est-drive.html

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> No, that is called brain washing
> 
> Why would a kid want the most boring lame car ever made? Did they want a beige Toyota Prius in the years before?



You misunderstood. Kids in shcool these days want Teslas, cause they are bad ass. Fastest care light to light made. Cool display. self dirving. no gas. No one brainwashed them.

How do you go from your 100% post, to a 0% post.

----------


## Xtrema

http://jalopnik.com/tesla-buyers-say...l-s-1797897048

Model 3 Day 1 reserve buyer pushed to buy Model S, threaten tax incentive is gone in Sep.

----------


## Gestalt

> For $230K, the Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-hybrid is way better "car" than Tesla P100D. And you can run 50km on battery alone up to 140km/h.
> 
> And the non-turbo one is only $150K.
> 
> Or course, sky is the limit on options when it comes to Porsche.



Wha? Tesla eats the Panamera in every way. Not even a contest. Tesla is more comfortable, has more room, a lower centre of gravity, and will rip the face off the bloated gas guzzler from a set of lights, and drives itself. 

And the Tesla S is now 6 years old.

----------


## Xtrema

> Wha? Tesla eats the Panamera in every way. Not even a contest. Tesla is more comfortable, has more room, a lower centre of gravity, and will rip the face off the bloated gas guzzler from a set of lights, and drives itself. 
> 
> And the Tesla S is now 6 years old.



When I say proper "car", I meant better build quality, better material. You won't have random gap and seal issue and plague many owners. While Tesla has improved, I put them on the same level as early Hyundai and GM comes to interior design/material/build quality wise. Mid pack at best.

The number or rattles being reported to CR is a good sign that it's not well made. And I don't expect them to be. They are not a traditional car builder. They are saving money and skipping some QA processes to subsidize R&D and battery cost. So this is expected.

----------


## Gestalt

You are exagerating the current model problems by a mile. And at the end you arent talking functionality safety mileage or performance you are talking lipstick.

I love the panamera turbo reviews. They all say at the end "it can't compete with a Tesla, but the V8 has a nice sound". Lol.

----------


## Xtrema

> You are exagerating the current model problems by a mile. And at the end you arent talking functionality safety mileage or performance you are talking lipstick.
> 
> I love the panamera turbo reviews. They all say at the end "it can't compete with a Tesla, but the V8 has a nice sound". Lol.



No. I am talking about expectation of a $200K car. I have the same problem with Maserati's. If you are going to charge more than $100K (2017) you better deliver the quality. But with Tesla, the trade off is quality with state of the art technology and batteries and a different take on mobility and telling everyone about it.

Panamera isn't an EV. It's a hybrid that similar to the Volt and it will act like a Tesla for 90% of the time. Which is perfect car for right now because charging infrastructure is horrible on road trips. Nobody has done a road trip in a Tesla without extra charge time needed along the way. 

Like I said, CR doesn't always get it right, but they rank Tesla 25/29 in reliability. Again being different has its price. 4 manufacturers now offers EVs for $35K. Tesla still has not delivered even with corners cut. They are only delivers $56K Model 3's for this year and sounds like they are trying to force people to take Model S that are stuck in the pipeline, either by sales people or by price cuts. 

Price cuts for a company that is burning billions a quarter and just issue some junk bonds to keep going doesn't make sense, and seems to have a demand issue.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Just got back to cell coverage, thanks for the continued Kool-Aid laughs Gestalt. You don't disappoint!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

dodge demon is faster and cheaper

----------


## benyl

> Yes that is what kids want... a car to drive them to school like their parents, lol
> 
> First, Racing light to light is illegal, and that huge acceleration that Tesla has, plus the 4000lbs+ bloat has landed more than a few of them in the middle of a starbucks now. Second, from what I've been reading you'd deplete the battery ridiculously fast doing that. Thirdly, I am fairly certain that a traditional car is a hell of a lot more fun going 0-60, and finally if you actually want to use the Telsa for a track day... well you can't because it is a one trick pony.
> 
> If you gave kids the option between a ride in a lame looking Tesla or something like an R8 or a Lambo.... yeah, I really don't think they choose the Tesla



Isn't over 5000lbs? Understeers with the best of them.

Also, the power delivery sucks. Pulls from 0-30 then falls flat on it's face. It's like a turbo car with a too small turbo that just starts blowing hot air at higher RPMs. It almost needs a transmission. haha.

Still want one.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Thirdly, I am fairly certain that a traditional car is a hell of a lot more fun going 0-60



Lots of F1 fans are not car fans. There is a huge demographic difference. F1 sucks in all ways (the crazy turbo cars of the 80's were the last time it was entertaining) but hundreds of millions love it.

Anyone who likes electric cars because of the performance numbers probably aren't car guys. They are spec geeks. It's sort of like dealing with some of my higher end clients and the way they talk about cars. Its not the car that excites them, its the performance aspects. If they could afford a daily flyer jet, they'd probably do it an wax poetic about it.

----------


## rage2

> Thirdly, I am fairly certain that a traditional car is a hell of a lot more fun going 0-60



I disagree. The 0-60 is ridiculous and invincible in the Tesla. It's a blast every time I drive one.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Yes that is what kids want... a car to drive them to school like their parents, lol
> 
> First, Racing light to light is illegal, and that huge acceleration that Tesla has, plus the 4000lbs+ bloat has landed more than a few of them in the middle of a starbucks now. Second, from what I've been reading you'd deplete the battery ridiculously fast doing that. Thirdly, I am fairly certain that a traditional car is a hell of a lot more fun going 0-60, and finally if you actually want to use the Telsa for a track day... well you can't because it is a one trick pony.
> 
> If you gave kids the option between a ride in a lame looking Tesla or something like an R8 or a Lambo.... yeah, I really don't think they choose the Tesla



A Veyron can only go 7 mminutes before the tires explode, and 11 minutes before running out of gas.

So?

And yeah, it's crazy, but nice to see that kids like technology and enviroment. Dream cars no longr Lambos, R8's are for used car dealers.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> dodge demon is faster and cheaper



First. Dodge  :Barf:  . enough said.

Second, only on race gas, on a track with a ton of glue on it, on drag radials. It also gets 4mpg, meaning the tesla would pass it at a gas station or 3 on the way to edmonton

In the real world, the Tesla eats it, with 4 doors, 7 seats, drives itself.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> A Veyron can only go 7 mminutes before the tires explode, and 11 minutes before running out of gas.
> 
> So?
> 
> And yeah, it's crazy, but nice to see that kids like technology and enviroment. Dream cars no longr Lambos, R8's are for used car dealers.



1. Kids doesn't like cars, period. If Japan is a leading indicator, they prefer stay in city and be social via various electronic platforms and public transits.
2. Most people already treat cars like coffee makers and rice cookers. Most people are treating them as appliances and not object of desire like we do.
3. Our kids will probably live in a future where they would call and uber and a driverless EV will show up and just take them wherever they want to go. Rendering driving as a hobby like horse riding.

----------


## Gestalt

> 1. Kids doesn't like cars, period. If Japan is a leading indicator, they prefer stay in city and be social via various electronic platforms and public transits.
> 2. Most people already treat cars like coffee makers and rice cookers. Most people are treating them as appliances and not object of desire like we do.
> 3. Our kids will probably live in a future where they would call and uber and a driverless EV will show up and just take them wherever they want to go. Rendering driving as a hobby like horse riding.



Agreed. Driving sucks 99% of the time. Maked the tesla that much more suitable 

Ill be really excited geting teleported.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...n-first-drive/

the Tesla is slow.

in fact, extra points to the dodge for having chunks of tire plastered to the rear fender / bumper.

----------


## Gestalt

> http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...n-first-drive/
> 
> the Tesla is slow.
> 
> in fact, extra points to the dodge for having chunks of tire plastered to the rear fender / bumper.



Sorry your stripped single seat race car still loses to a functional Tesla. Now add a real world scenario, Calgary altitude unless you going to drive around on race gas full time and the demon owner is crying after spwndong $180k canadian on dodge

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-p...ger-srt-demon/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

> Sorry your stripped single seat race car still loses to a functional Tesla. Now add a real world scenario, Calgary altitude unless you going to drive around on race gas full time and the demon owner is crying after spwndong $180k canadian on dodge
> 
> http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-p...ger-srt-demon/



There was nothing to say the tesla is faster. Who would include rollout on a car with a trans brake. It does the quarter mile in like 9.5 seconds. 

The seats cost $1 to add and it is not stripped down. All safety equipment remain. Heck some dragstrips might not let the tesla run without a cage. 

People say it's the best cause it's faster than hypercars. Now a dodge is faster and the goal posts change. Lol.

----------


## Gestalt

> There was nothing to say the tesla is faster. Who would include rollout on a car with a trans brake. It does the quarter mile in like 9.5 seconds. 
> 
> The seats cost $1 to add and it is not stripped down. All safety equipment remain. Heck some dragstrips might not let the tesla run without a cage. 
> 
> People say it's the best cause it's faster than hypercars. Now a dodge is faster and the goal posts change. Lol.



But its not faster. Dodge just ignored that tesla was faster when they claimed they were fastest. Like they did with model x.

So a dodge secret tested one hit wonder run no seats drag race tires fron and rear, race gas, optimal track conditions, against teslas proven faster time in real world verified by motor trend.

You are getting desparate.

----------


## Gestalt

> So how the hell is the Tesla putting down those kinds of 0-60 numbers anyway? Yes, they have AWD... but even so, most cars tend to be traction limited, not power limited. It is just because the car is so freaking heavy and they have stuck some 200 tread wear tires on it or what?



Its probably the percise and instant power control. They can control the torque output much better than internal combustion so they can keep the tires in the edge of grip the whole way every splitsecond to 60. The guy wity the stripped tesla on aftermsrket rims and sticky tures has rumours that its run under 2 seconds.

And what do ylu do sith your single seat hellcat demon devil satan when you lose 10 or more percent of your power going higher than ideal. Electric has no suck weaknes

----------


## zhao

Man kelowna is full of teslas. I actually passed 2 model S 's between banff and revelstoke. They were both hypermiling doing under the speed limit. Pretty fast cars compared to a camper, but not as fast as my base model Hyundai Elantra rental apparently. 

The grand hotel here in kelowna uses a S as a taxi, so I guess theyre moving up in to the realm of being useful, but not exactly what I'd want to pay 100k for, or even 50. The day they build an interior that doesn't look like it belongs in a Kia Rio, or start charging 15g for the car if they don't want to improve on their minimalist styling nightmare I'd consider one. but with their range and charge times, it'd only be a city car or 2ndary car at best so still technically as useless for the masses as my rx7.

I also bet they handle like complete shit... all they ever talk about is 0-60. Never how great it hugs the road. Screw that aspect about them as well.

----------


## bjstare

I'm like 99% sure Gestalt is trolling.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> I'm like 99% sure Gestalt is trolling.



Nope. Hilarious hey?

----------


## rage2

> So how the hell is the Tesla putting down those kinds of 0-60 numbers anyway? Yes, they have AWD... but even so, most cars tend to be traction limited, not power limited. It is just because the car is so freaking heavy and they have stuck some 200 tread wear tires on it or what?



It's the weight that helps a lot. At low speeds, there's no downforce to push the car down for more traction, so weight plays a huge part in available grip on the tires. Tesla sized the motors up so that they can marginally exceed the available grip up to 60mph, so the acceleration is traction limited based on grip. There are 2 reasons why ICE cars can't beat the Tesla to 60mph. Gestalt brought up power control which really is legitimate up to about 20mph. The main reason through is that cars that are designed to be sporty don't weigh 5000+lbs so naturally it'll have less available grip, so it'd be impossible to match the Tesla's grip and 0-60 performance. Tesla's literally took the weight disadvantage and made it an advantage in one specific metric and marketed the shit out of it. 

If someone builds a 5000lb AWD car with 800hp it would come close to the Tesla's performance. It'll need much more complicated launch management to match the Tesla out of the hole, and it'll be disadvantages in other performance areas (braking, handling, fuel efficiency, etc) which is why nobody is building a car to beat the Tesla at this game.

----------


## rage2

> I also bet they handle like complete shit... all they ever talk about is 0-60. Never how great it hugs the road. Screw that aspect about them as well.



It's a strange handling sensation. The cornering limits aren't really high because of energy efficient tires, transitions are brutal because of the weight, but there's next to no body roll because of the extremely low center of gravity. Most people would interpret it as a sporty handling car because of the last point since nobody drives anywhere near the limits, but it's not a great handling car for someone like you and I.

If you ever get to test drive one, take it through a traffic circle at the limit. You'll want to shoot yourself haha.

----------


## Maxt

When most of us were teens, our gateway to freedom and the outside world from our parents, was our first car... Now its your first phone/Ipad...

----------


## RealJimmyJames

Is there some setting on beyond.ca where you can read a thread but have no idea which user you are arguing with? That's my only guess on what's happening in this thread.

----------


## VWEvo

> When I say proper "car", I meant better build quality, better material. You won't have random gap and seal issue and plague many owners. While Tesla has improved, I put them on the same level as early Hyundai and GM comes to interior design/material/build quality wise. Mid pack at best.
> 
> The number or rattles being reported to CR is a good sign that it's not well made. And I don't expect them to be. They are not a traditional car builder. They are saving money and skipping some QA processes to subsidize R&D and battery cost. So this is expected.



No clue what your even talking about. Again ,as an actual Tesla owner, never experienced one of the things your claiming!!

----------


## supe

> No clue what your even talking about. Again ,as an actual Tesla owner, never experienced one of the things your claiming!!



And thats the thing about this thread, is lots of haters who actually know very little about Teslas. These flaws in the cars that CR was reporting were all from the first generation of the Model S. 

Haters will mention the long charge times, but but you have actual Tesla owners here saying its a non issue. I personally can't wait for the day I leave my house with a "full tank" every day which is 99% of my driving. 

Haters will also mention the price tags of the car. Keep in this thread is in the finance section, you have Tesla raking in 400k+ reservations to buy the Model 3 which will have healthy 20%+ margins. 

I think a lot of people here are missing the signals. Gestalt mentioned what the kids want, sure they can't pay for these things today, but who are the ones buying tomorrow.

https://electrek.co/2017/04/04/tesla...-of-awareness/



> Amongst teens, Tesla barely edged out BMW as the coolest auto brand, but amongst millennials it was one of the coolest brands overall even outside of the automotive realm  with Google, Netflix and Youtube in the lead, and Amazon barely beating Tesla.



Also, are the 0-60's fun or not?

----------


## Gestalt

> I'm like 99% sure Gestalt is trolling.



Guy seriosuly suggests a 150k race car dodge as an alternative and im trolling?

----------


## zhao

This is beyond; off the wall serious reccomendations are the norm. Half the threads asking which budget used SUV should op get turns in to 20 people recommending G wagons. no point getting used, and might as well go for the Amg model since you're special ordering anyway.

----------


## Gestalt

> This is beyond; off the wall serious reccomendations are the norm. Half the threads asking which budget used SUV should op get turns in to 20 people recommending G wagons. no point getting used, and might as well go for the Amg model since you're special ordering anyway.



But its not a g wagon. its a dodge. 55 year old men that had a rusty old dodge in the their teens are buying these shit boxes out of nostaligia, and now they can afford it. It's a pos.

----------


## speedog

> But its not a g wagon. its a dodge. 55 year old men that had a rusty old dodge in the their teens are buying these shit boxes out of nostaligia, and now they can afford it. It's a pos.



No different than most of those that are buying Ford Raptors or AMG anything or M series anything - most of those more capable vehicles will never be anything more than a 'look at me and what I have' type of vehicle. A 4aptor is an amazing truck for the money and yet virtually every one of them will never see anything more serious than a 6" curb with respect to off roading. Every main stream automobile manufacturer does this - selling a souped up version of another lesser model/platform which for the most part will never be pushed to anywhere close to it's capabilities. No use shitting on Dodge or the people that buy this car because there's fan boys that'll go plunk down a wad of cash on akin vehicles from other manufacturers.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

I was in Kelowna and saw no Teslas. I saw exactly one when I was in Victoria.

----------


## Xtrema

> No clue what your even talking about. Again ,as an actual Tesla owner, never experienced one of the things your claiming!!



Data set of 1 is never any way to defend quality of a brand.





CR rank Tesla 25/29 of all manufacturers in reliability. So it's not even remotely top half of the field.




> And thats the thing about this thread, is lots of haters who actually know very little about Teslas. These flaws in the cars that CR was reporting were all from the first generation of the Model S.



Far from being haters but I don't see Tesla with a rosey glasses either. 

The fact remains in 2017:

- Production number is low and quality is low/uneven.
- Battery technology is last gen by today's standard
- There are better high production EVs from competitors, if not strictly in term of 0-60 numbers.

We are all fanboys of brands and I have no problem with fanboy of Tesla. But I would by 5 e-Golf before I would buy 1 Model S if my goal is strictly switching to EV.

----------


## asd913

I grew a tree a couple years ago and its finally bearing fruit. Xtrema, you are welcome to pick the cherries off of it too.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/...n-car-bra.aspx

"In Consumer Reports' most recent reliability survey, Tesla's Model S was given an "average" rating, but the company's late-2015 launched Model X SUV dragged down Tesla's overall reliability score. The SUV was ranked as the consumer rating magazine's sixth-least reliable vehicle in the reliability survey. This meant the Tesla's brand was dubbed "less reliable" and was ranked 25th among other car brands. 

With its complex falcon-wing rear doors and its self-presenting front doors, the Model X's problems at the time of the Consumer Reports reliability survey were rampant. But Tesla asserts it has since addressed the issues present in the early Model X units. In Tesla's third-quarter shareholder letter, management said Model X issues decreased 92% between October 2015 and October 2016."

----------


## Xtrema

> I grew a tree a couple years ago and its finally bearing fruit. Xtrema, you are welcome to pick the cherries off of it too.
> 
> https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/...n-car-bra.aspx
> 
> "In Consumer Reports' most recent reliability survey, Tesla's Model S was given an "average" rating, but the company's late-2015 launched Model X SUV dragged down Tesla's overall reliability score. The SUV was ranked as the consumer rating magazine's sixth-least reliable vehicle in the reliability survey. This meant the Tesla's brand was dubbed "less reliable" and was ranked 25th among other car brands. 
> 
> With its complex falcon-wing rear doors and its self-presenting front doors, the Model X's problems at the time of the Consumer Reports reliability survey were rampant. But Tesla asserts it has since addressed the issues present in the early Model X units. In Tesla's third-quarter shareholder letter, management said Model X issues decreased 92% between October 2015 and October 2016."



Again this is a sample of 1, one youtuber had misaligned rear hatch and rear seat won't fold down for a recent copy of Model X. And on the verge of Model 3 introduction on a different platform and processes, I don't think their CR ranking will go up any time soon.

And to be clear, just like Rage, all of these doesn't make me want a Model S any less. It's just hard to convince my wallet to accept it.

----------


## suntan

There was a poster on another forum that bought a Tesla. Thing was a total lemon - his door handle even came off once. Numerous problems. Not a "first-gen".

But he still loved the useless piece of crap.

----------


## Xtrema

> There was a poster on another forum that bought a Tesla. Thing was a total lemon - his door handle even came off once. Numerous problems. Not a "first-gen".
> 
> But he still loved the useless piece of crap.



Same mentality as people who voted for Trump are still saying he is doing a good job and people and media picked on him.

People just can't come to a conclusion that they picked a loser.

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## VWEvo

> Data set of 1 is never any way to defend quality of a brand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CR rank Tesla 25/29 of all manufacturers in reliability. So it's not even remotely top half of the field.
> 
> 
> ...




I'm a far bigger fanboy of BMW than I am of Tesla. I've seen plenty of videos and threads about how "their BMW is a lemon". Name one manufacturer that isn't immune to it. I'm sure there are Tesla lemons, glad to know i don't own one. Then again, whats the worse that could happen, I have to keep taking my car in to the service centre and get a P100D loaner. I would love to see any other dealer do that!!

----------


## speedog

> There was a poster on another forum that bought a Tesla. Thing was a total lemon - his door handle even came off once. Numerous problems. Not a "first-gen".
> 
> But he still loved the useless piece of crap.



Kind of like a coworker of mine from some 30 years ago, total Honda fanboy regardless of the fact that his Honda Civic had been into the dealer over 20 times over a two year period for various issues (not regular maintenance or wear and tear replacements). 

My Chev, on the other hand, was a piece of shit in his eyes even though it didn't see a dealership or repair place of any kind in over five years for anything other than regular maintenance for wear and tear items. His logic was quite confusing.

----------


## asd913

> True
> 
> When you buy a Tesla, you aren't buying a car... you are buying an idea! The car is just a novelty, so if it is a POS, that part doesn't really matter anyway. This is how you stick it to big oil... finally, they gouged you for so many years. You've probably spent tens of dollars in fuel every month... well no more, with one simple 6 figure purchase, you won't get ripped off anymore! FREEDUMB!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> oh.... man, I wish I had an Elon McEcoScam of my own sometimes, haha
> 
> I wonder if he actually hates environmentalists as much as I do and this is how he is punishing them all!



Wow, project much? It seems you hate the car without even driving one. But it's the buyers that are spending $100k+ for an idea?? 

Regurgitating bullshit you hear and keep a circlejerk going doesn't make you knowledgeable about the world. Go testdrive the car and then come back with some tangible insight. It's free after all.

----------


## rage2

> Then again, whats the worse that could happen, I have to keep taking my car in to the service centre and get a P100D loaner. I would love to see any other dealer do that!!



Very interesting point. As a customer, it's awesome. In fact, if you're on Tesla forums, you'll see people enjoy having lots of problems because the loaner is a better car than they paid for. They even ask service to take their time because they're driving a car 30-50% more expensive than what they've paid more often than their car, and for and not racking up mileage. 

From a financials point of view, Tesla moved a huge number of builds towards loaners. Analysts are saying it's to hide softening demand. At the end of the day, it's a huge burden on the company supporting this when they're so tight on cash. It's not a sustainable model.

----------


## suntan

> Kind of like a coworker of mine from some 30 years ago, total Honda fanboy regardless of the fact that his Honda Civic had been into the dealer over 20 times over a two year period for various issues (not regular maintenance or wear and tear replacements). 
> 
> My Chev, on the other hand, was a piece of shit in his eyes even though it didn't see a dealership or repair place of any kind in over five years for anything other than regular maintenance for wear and tear items. His logic was quite confusing.



My point is that a sample size of one is useless in terms of statistical reliability.

----------


## Maxt

For those that don't watch autoline daily. 5:44

----------


## Xtrema

> For those that don't watch autoline daily. 5:44



With operating cost that is 5x less than gas, I'm pretty sure the cost of operating EV will triple in the future and still be 30% less.

The barrier of EV is still parity on purchase price. Until a e-Golf is $25K CAD without incentives, EV will not go mainstream.

----------


## Maxt

> With operating cost that is 5x less than gas, I'm pretty sure the cost of operating EV will triple in the future and still be 30% less.
> 
> The barrier of EV is still parity on purchase price. Until a e-Golf is $25K CAD without incentives, EV will not go mainstream.



 It's not just the auto usage side though, this is going to drive the cost of electricity and distribution of it up across the board if the shift starts to take place..People think the power bills are high now, shift the energy usage from petroleum to electric and get ready for the cost hit of installing more lines, bigger services into homes, etc...

----------


## speedog

> It's not just the auto usage side though, this is going to drive the cost of electricity and distribution of it up across the board if the shift starts to take place..People think the power bills are high now, shift the energy usage from petroleum to electric and get ready for the cost hit of installing more lines, bigger services into homes, etc...



Wait for it,


wait for it,



more cycling lanes.

----------


## zhao

> It's not just the auto usage side though, this is going to drive the cost of electricity and distribution of it up across the board if the shift starts to take place..People think the power bills are high now, shift the energy usage from petroleum to electric and get ready for the cost hit of installing more lines, bigger services into homes, etc...



^ people with their head up their ass dont believe that will ever happen.

30 years from now we'll probably be bitching about Big Solar(TM) fucking us at the wall, and Gestalt Jr. will be declaring how he has a liquid fuel powered ICE generator station setup in his house recycling filtered liquid fossils that come from the ground and turning them in to food for trees to breath.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> It's not just the auto usage side though, this is going to drive the cost of electricity and distribution of it up across the board if the shift starts to take place..People think the power bills are high now, shift the energy usage from petroleum to electric and get ready for the cost hit of installing more lines, bigger services into homes, etc...



The entire power distribution system is going to need to change longer term. At some point it will make more sense for localized solar (ie on your roof) and that will take care of a large percentage of your requirements. I predict the transition to that will be very painful however as utilities and governments fight for opposing goals.

----------


## zhao

> The entire power distribution system is going to need to change longer term. At some point it will make more sense for localized solar (ie on your roof) and that will take care of a large percentage of your requirements. I predict the transition to that will be very painful however as utilities and governments fight for opposing goals.



And I predict that localized power generation will cost more than a centralized plant, meaning you will pay more. If you dont pay more they will engineer the life cycle of your panels down to the point where you have to replace them or maintain them often enough that you do pay more, because there are $$$ to be earned. 

When has anything done on a small scale been cheaper than mass producing it? When was the last time someone built something complicated and designed it to last? Companies pretty much engineer things to fail on a certain date. Make the sodder a little thinner so it doesn't hold up forever. Make the metal a little softer so it wears out. keep duplicating the same easily correctable design flaws in to future products. etc etc

----------


## ExtraSlow

Distribution has a big cost too however. And it's difficult to locate large power plants of any type close to population centres, which will be the largest power consumer if EV get large market penetration. 

Overall costs are going to go up as we transition away from coal. Probably at least triple. I think local solar will be a big part of the total generation capacity eventually. Probably be two decades or more Imo.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> When has anything done on a small scale been cheaper than mass producing it? When was the last time someone built something complicated and designed it to last? Companies pretty much engineer things to fail on a certain date. Make the sodder a little thinner so it doesn't hold up forever. Make the metal a little softer so it wears out. keep duplicating the same easily correctable design flaws in to future products. etc etc



Beautiful thing about this, is that it leaves market share on the table. Then some smart individual comes in and starts selling a better product, maybe even undercutting the big players. Win-win.

I think solar is a good way to go in the future. I also think that PUSHING for it is frigging ridiculous, and it should be a slow, at MARKET PACE conversion.

If I am outside the city in 5-10 years, I'll be doing solar thermal and solar electrical. The price is almost right for these systems to pay off in a houses lifetime, 5-10 years from now I expect it to be a no brainer, especially if you have an electric car.

----------


## Xtrema

> It's not just the auto usage side though, this is going to drive the cost of electricity and distribution of it up across the board if the shift starts to take place..People think the power bills are high now, shift the energy usage from petroleum to electric and get ready for the cost hit of installing more lines, bigger services into homes, etc...



Yup. Solar and batteries.

Generate, store and use at the same location. Transmission of any kind (fuel by trucks or electricity by power line) are inefficient.

As I said before AESO study has pointed to that 20% EV adoption in Alberta will cause the grid to fail. Higher electricity prices will encourage solar and storage and get to the end game earlier.

The problem being will generation and transmission companies survive this and will the government turn them back into crown corp in order to see this thru in the future. 

Right now, generation companies has no interest in solar (too expensive per kwh in Canada) and transmission companies has no interest in storage (take them out of the business to a degree). To make this change, it's most likely that government/taxpayers will have to take the full hit on the cost either with higher bills or higher taxes.

----------


## ZenOps

Electric car handling will be vastly superior if they can ever figure out maglev spherical tires (Goodyear 360). But by that level of sophistication, you are very unlikely as a human to be driving said car - it will be all AI controlled.

Once you get rid of the combustion engine, physically attached tires don't make as much sense. Maglev is a perfect fit for electric vehicles of all sorts.

As an interim to a fully spherical tire, it is possible to have tires that simply float suspended in air with magnetic levitation bearings (with maybe 1/4 inch gap) Should make for the ultimate luxury ride as you are literally floating on a layer of air separation.

----------


## Inzane

I drove my friend's P85D Ludicrous earlier this year. First time driving a Tesla or any electric car for that matter. My initial impressions were mostly positive. Impressive acceleration. The auto-pilot feature was "neat". The car seemed to handle better than I had expected too.

That all said, the fact you basically can drive it with one pedal like a golf cart was a bit off-putting. Also unnerving was the amount of data that is transferred to/from the car via satellite. Not necessarily the best choice if you're at all paranoid about "big brother".

But as this EV wave continues to it's logical fruition... What happens to the car guy? The car hobby?

No more tinkering on your own car in your garage.
No more enjoying connection between man and machine.
No more enjoying the sounds various car brands make. They'll all be variations of silent.
Etc.

We'll all be vapid humanoids milling around on automated superhighways listening to old radio jingles like those poor saps in the movie Demolition Man.

Is this really what we as a society want?

Bring on the Utopian future... <insert 'gun to own head' emoji>

----------


## Gestalt

I would cap current unsustainable production and mandaye new demand mist be met with alternative.

I was up in the ne today picking up some kijiji wheels in city scape drive and the first 4 housez were plasterd with solar. Probably 30 panels on bouse and garage rood. Easily energu positive.

Im just glad we are in the program before they granfather selling back to the grid.

----------


## Power_Of_Rotary

> I drove my friend's P85D Ludicrous earlier this year. First time driving a Tesla or any electric car for that matter. My initial impressions were mostly positive. Impressive acceleration. The auto-pilot feature was "neat". The car seemed to handle better than I had expected too.
> 
> That all said, the fact you basically can drive it with one pedal like a golf cart was a bit off-putting. Also unnerving was the amount of data that is transferred to/from the car via satellite. Not necessarily the best choice if you're at all paranoid about "big brother".
> 
> But as this EV wave continues to it's logical fruition... What happens to the car guy? The car hobby?
> 
> No more tinkering on your own car in your garage.
> No more enjoying connection between man and machine.
> No more enjoying the sounds various car brands make. They'll all be variations of silent.
> ...



you know there used to be people who were horse enthusiast too? they were called cowboys. 
That said, car tuning will be missed.

----------


## SKR

> mandaye mist housez plasterd bouse rood energu Im granfather



I think your gimmick is great but you're trying too hard. Your character will be more believable if you try to look natural.

----------


## supe

A company using a Tesla racks up 300,000 miles, total service charges was ~$10k vs using a benz would have been $86k! Total time in a shop was 12 days vs 112 days in a benz. The economics of EV's for fleet vehicles are looking quite promising. Similarly, I recently came back from Amsterdam, leaving the airport, every other Taxi was a Tesla. 

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-hap...-te-1798662230

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## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Does the math even work out for that analysis?

56k is a lot of maintenance costs even for an S Class AMG. That's an average of $2,800 per service interval of 15,000km.

No idea how 20 services ends up being 112 days in the shop. Every service averages over 5 days? I don't think so.

Also they added on estimated fuel costs as part of the cost for the Mercedes, and quoted 0 fuel costs for the Tesla. Because Apparently they will exclusively charge it at supercharging stations. How many cumulative days is one of their drivers required to sit and wait for their Tesla to charge as part of that analysis I wonder? Any costs associated with that?

Seems like a lot of typical Tesla fanboy marth to me.  :crazy nut: 

edit: ok glad it's not just me...

----------


## suntan

The only way to make a Tesla make sense is to lie about everything.

----------


## Twin_Cam_Turbo

I think their costs include fuel consumption on the S Class and Town Car.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

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## Sugarphreak

...

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## 01RedDX

.

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## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

There's a lot of reasons why the math doesn't make sense. It's because Tesloop is for all intents and purposes, a marketing exercise for Tesla. This was in the news a couple of years ago.

The founder is a grade 10 kid that wanted to buy a Tesla and provide shuttle service between suburbs 2 years ago (real suburbs, not Calgary suburbs), so basically it has pickup and drop off points that terminate at superchargers and travel distances of around 100km. There are specific pickup and drop off times, so it's no different than what a normal shuttle service would have in terms of downtime for driver rest, except the downtime is maximized by charging the vehicle at the supercharger point. By removing the random factor of commute, it eliminates weakness in using EV for commercial passenger transport, and in turn provides reliable service. Elon Musk personally helped this kid get started in the California market, which includes unlimited supercharger use as part of its agreement. Also when it comes to servicing, there's a lot of good will repairs, such as the free goodwill $25,000 battery replacement at 200,000 miles.

It's a great feel good startup story started by a grade 10'er who's starting grade 12 this year, with backing from Tesla themselves. The reality is though that if you're a regular old taxi service, you will not get the same level of service and benefits as Tesloop, and the math would be quite different, something Tesloop neglected to mention. Kudos to the kid for founding a company at 16 and running a successful business at 18 and taking advantage of Tesla's thirst for good press. That's the real story in all this.

----------


## benyl

> There's a lot of reasons why the math doesn't make sense. It's because Tesloop is for all intents and purposes, a marketing exercise for Tesla. This was in the news a couple of years ago.
> 
> The founder is a grade 10 kid that wanted to buy a Tesla and provide shuttle service between suburbs 2 years ago (real suburbs, not Calgary suburbs), so basically it has pickup and drop off points that terminate at superchargers and travel distances of around 100km. There are specific pickup and drop off times, so it's no different than what a normal shuttle service would have in terms of downtime for driver rest, except the downtime is maximized by charging the vehicle at the supercharger point. By removing the random factor of commute, it eliminates weakness in using EV for commercial passenger transport, and in turn provides reliable service. Elon Musk personally helped this kid get started in the California market, which includes unlimited supercharger use as part of its agreement. Also when it comes to servicing, there's a lot of good will repairs, such as the free goodwill $25,000 battery replacement at 200,000 miles.
> 
> It's a great feel good startup story started by a grade 10'er who's starting grade 12 this year, with backing from Tesla themselves. The reality is though that if you're a regular old taxi service, you will not get the same level of service and benefits as Tesloop, and the math would be quite different, something Tesloop neglected to mention. Kudos to the kid for founding a company at 16 and running a successful business at 18 and taking advantage of Tesla's thirst for good press. That's the real story in all this.



So, fake industry? Indirect use of government funds?

----------


## HiTempguy1

> To me the tires are an obvious one, lighter cars are way more economical for tires than heavy ones. The weight translates directly into additional friction and therefore heat, and heat kills tires way faster.



While I agree with most of your points, its a lot more complicated than heavier car = more tire wear.

Given all of the exact same parameters except for weight, I would agree in theory. However, it still really is a negligible difference if we are talking 1000lbs or less. Tire wear is affected much more by the driver than the weight of the vehicle (fast starts and stops, high g cornering). Rolling in a straight line regardless of weight doesn't do much for wear.

Interesting to see the numbers really gone through thoroughly though. Overall, seems like EV's still have a ways to go. I think I could make a solar setup with a powerwall make sense out on the acreage eventually.

----------


## Xtrema

> A company using a Tesla racks up 300,000 miles, total service charges was ~$10k vs using a benz would have been $86k! Total time in a shop was 12 days vs 112 days in a benz. The economics of EV's for fleet vehicles are looking quite promising. Similarly, I recently came back from Amsterdam, leaving the airport, every other Taxi was a Tesla. 
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-hap...-te-1798662230



Before you get too excited.

$10K is scheduled maintenance and repair and leaching off Supercharger for energy for Tesla

$86K is scheduled maintenance and repair and paying for gas (Which is about $40K at 20mpg and ~$2.5/gallon).


Still, take energy out, it is $46K vs $10K. And the fact that it spend 10x less down time as well. This is pretty much is predicted why car sharing fleet will/have to be EVs.

Or if you want to take into account of electricity cost of Cali at 0.20/kwh, that would have to pay $20K of electricity and cost would rise to $30K for Tesla.

In this scenario, they charges exclusively at Superchargers for free fuel, that's about 1000hrs spent on refueling for 300,000 miles. For gas, that's about 1000 trips to gas station (20mpg and 15 gallon tank) and would have taken around 90hrs spent on refueling. So you need to use 900hrs more on fueling comparing EV to gas. Now those hrs could be cut down if they charge them at base during down time but that means they couldn't leach.

End of the day, you can make EV work if you change your schedule around it, at least until EV can get 200 miles in 5-10mins.




> There's a lot of reasons why the math doesn't make sense. It's because Tesloop is for all intents and purposes, a marketing exercise for Tesla. This was in the news a couple of years ago.
> 
> The founder is a grade 10 kid that wanted to buy a Tesla and provide shuttle service between suburbs 2 years ago (real suburbs, not Calgary suburbs), so basically it has pickup and drop off points that terminate at superchargers and travel distances of around 100km. There are specific pickup and drop off times, so it's no different than what a normal shuttle service would have in terms of downtime for driver rest, except the downtime is maximized by charging the vehicle at the supercharger point. By removing the random factor of commute, it eliminates weakness in using EV for commercial passenger transport, and in turn provides reliable service. Elon Musk personally helped this kid get started in the California market, which includes unlimited supercharger use as part of its agreement. Also when it comes to servicing, there's a lot of good will repairs, such as the free goodwill $25,000 battery replacement at 200,000 miles.
> 
> It's a great feel good startup story started by a grade 10'er who's starting grade 12 this year, with backing from Tesla themselves. The reality is though that if you're a regular old taxi service, you will not get the same level of service and benefits as Tesloop, and the math would be quite different, something Tesloop neglected to mention. Kudos to the kid for founding a company at 16 and running a successful business at 18 and taking advantage of Tesla's thirst for good press. That's the real story in all this.




This totally make sense now.


In other Tesla news:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/08...ilot-division/

Seems like nobody sane want to do autopilot the way Elon promised without lidar.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> In other Tesla news:
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/08...ilot-division/
> 
> Seems like nobody sane want to do autopilot the way Elon promised without lidar.



One of the big issues from the engineering standpoint is that to cut costs, HW2 only has 1/2 the power that Nvidia says is required for Level 4 or higher autonomy. HW2 does have enough power to perform Level 2 even though they're still trying to get to parity software wise with HW1, and borderline enough for Level 3 as per Nvidia's suggestion, but it will never reach Level 4 full autonomy that's been promised. Elon believes otherwise, which is the core disagreements with the automation team. Of course, for those that have already paid for the full autonomous option (marketed as Level 4) today, Tesla could upgrade the hardware at an additional cost when it's ready if HW2 indeed can not handle Level 4 safely, and by betting this way, it could be a lot cheaper to source Level 4 capable hardware in the future which could work in Tesla's favor.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> 1000lbs extra on the same tires is more than enough to chew through those tires at a rate of 30% higher.



No. It isn't. In normal driving, especially highway, there will be minimal to no affect.

Auto-x is the exact situation I described as it having an affect, high g cornering, fast starts and stops. Please tell me more about a topic I am well versed in though :p I even said 1000lb difference. In normal commuter driving, it isn't much different.

A 245 wide tire wear between a 3500lb and 4500lb vehicle is negligible. Now put the same 245 wide tire on, I dunno, a diesel pickup weighing 8000lbs and there certainly is a difference. You are greatly over exaggerating something that isn't required to make your point.

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## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

> the highway is the killer.



Well doi, because you are putting more miles on if you are doing lots of highway driving  :ROFL!: 




> Trying to say that carrying around 1000lbs in extra weight on the highway has no effect on your tire wear makes no sense



I didn't say "no" effect, I said it sure ain't 30%. You clearly don't understand the relationship between tire contact patch, tire pressures, and how little friction is generated in a straight line for a rolling vehicle at constant (or slowly accel/decel) speeds. I don't know what tires a Tesla comes with, but the model of tire/compound will have the largest affect, and if they are trying to get great range out of it with an eco tire, they usually have harder compounds and therefore, wear longer as well.

You're just plain wrong on this one. I don't really care for your offroad comparisons, because you are bringing so many variables into the equation it really isn't worth discussing. I burn off tires in 200kms of "offroad". Straight line, constant speed driving generates little wear on tires. A tesla will not, exact tire for tire (when sized appropriately) have 30% greater wear from a 3700lb car to its 4700lbs. I'd give you 10%, and I think that is generous. You'd see a larger effect the softer the tire you went with, but running soft grippy tires on the car completely defeats the purpose of buying one. And if you are in the transportation business, you are running the rock hard, longest lasting tire you can find.

Edit-
Your comment on 340 tread wear rating bolsters my claims further that you don't know what you are talking about. Tread wear ratings are at best indicators, you should actually know this being an auto-xer with all their stupid treadwear rules and the proliferation of the 140-200 TW tires that are basically r-compounds or slicks in disguise.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> It was only last winter that Tesla estimated 200k Model 3's produced by the end of 2017 (estimates at one time were as high as 300k in 2017). We're getting 28 in July, 100 in August, 1500 in September.



Well the numbers are out. 1628 estimated deliveries for Q3. Actual? 220.  :Shock:

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## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Well the numbers are out. 1628 estimated deliveries for Q3. Actual? 220.



You're just cherry picking stats, you don't understand how world changing this is.

----------


## Gestalt

Musk has long warned investors, customers and the media that early production ramp numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, and did so again on Teslas latest earnings call.

I would simply urge people to not get too caught up in what exactly falls within the exact calendar boundaries of a quarter, one quarter or the next, because when you have an exponentially growing production ramp, slight changes of a few weeks here or there can appear to have dramatic changes, but that is simply because of the arbitrary nature of when a quarter ends," Musk said.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Yeah, man. Don't try to make it look like this production isn't going really well because it totally is. Just wait a few weeks or months and you'll see that tesla is totally on an exponential growth curve.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Although if we are truly on an exponential growth rate we could be in trouble. I just did some calculations and by 2020 we should expect them to be producing 35, 806, 054 cars a quarter. And by 2025 it'll be 3.2e12 cars per day.

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## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## benyl

> I would simply urge people to not get too caught up in what exactly falls within the exact calendar boundaries of a quarter, one quarter or the next, because when you have an exponentially growing production ramp, slight changes of a few weeks here or there can appear to have dramatic changes, but that is simply because of the arbitrary nature of when a quarter ends," Musk said.



Is Musk going to the Trump University of Alternative Facts?

Since when has the definition of a quarter changed? Since when does the "end of a quarter" been arbitrary? WTF. A quarter is 3 months. At the end of 90 days, that is the end of the quarter. Is he really trying to redefine what a quarter is? While I understand that Q1,Q2, etc could be different parts of the year based on year end, it isn't like Tesla is changing their year end every year. Q3 is Q3.

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## Gestalt

> Is Musk going to the Trump University of Alternative Facts?
> .



Your so ridgid lol. When ur as sucesful as Telsa someone might listen to your excuses.

Meanwhile im sure Tesla had no impact on GMs decision to ditch internal combustion.


https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...d-cars-n806806

Sour grapes crew, you may continue your hatwrade

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## rage2

> Meanwhile im sure Tesla had no impact on GMs decision to ditch internal combustion.



GM was making EV's before Tesla was even a thought. The problem was that it just wasn't a profitable model. The reason why many manufacturers are shifting to EVs now is because energy storage costs (batterys and fuel cells) are starting to approach a point where profitability is only a couple years away without having to rely on government subsidies. Unlike Tesla, traditional manufacturers have to worry about the bottom line and not bleed cash.

Hybrids are overly complex, but manufacturers have been churning them out for 2 decades. The only reason they exist today is to bridge the gap until the cost of electrical energy storage becomes favorable (OK, usability is another piece). If it was that easy to make pure EVs profitable, hybrids wouldn't even exist at all.

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## Gestalt

> GM was making EV's before Tesla was even a thought. The problem was that it just wasn't a profitable model. The reason why many manufacturers are shifting to EVs now is because energy storage costs (batterys and fuel cells) are starting to approach a point where profitability is only a couple years away without having to rely on government subsidies. Unlike Tesla, traditional manufacturers have to worry about the bottom line and not bleed cash.
> 
> Hybrids are overly complex, but manufacturers have been churning them out for 2 decades. The only reason they exist today is to bridge the gap until the cost of electrical energy storage becomes favorable (OK, usability is another piece). If it was that easy to make pure EVs profitable, hybrids wouldn't even exist at all.



Tesla revolutionized the market proved what was possibleand changed the world.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/28/1...ence-elon-musk

And bankruot gm, subsididies and bleeding. no one has ever ehard that before  :ROFL!:

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## RealJimmyJames

When did they change the world? I must have missed that.

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## Gestalt

> When did they change the world? I must have missed that.



All the hater crew share in the missing.

If Musk was not born, do you for a second believe we wouldnt be years behind where we are?

Is it some kind of envy. You like gas so much? What is with the blinders and making of excuses?

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## speedog

> Although if we are truly on an exponential growth rate we could be in trouble. I just did some calculations and by 2020 we should expect them to be producing 35, 806, 054 cars a quarter. And by 2025 it'll be 3.2e12 cars per day.



Man, you need to get a job.

----------


## rage2

> If Musk was not born, do you for a second believe we wouldnt be years behind where we are?



Years behind in what? What has Tesla Motors actually invented?

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## RealJimmyJames

> Years behind in what? What has Tesla Motors actually invented?



A novel type of stock market scam.

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## Gestalt

> Years behind in what? What has Tesla Motors actually invented?



http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php

how many patent holders hateraders in this thread?

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## Xtrema

The new capital market has been rewarding idea that has potential disruption and taking of market share instead of tried and true profit.

Tesla is just trying to repeat what Amazon did.

As a car, I just spend 2 week and traveled 1800 miles in a Model S. Their product is buggy (dash crashed on me twice which requires reboots) and quality is lacking (the glass roof opening/closing sounds like machine guns going off). But the biggest problem is the car feel tethered as you don't want to stray too far from Superchargers when you leave home and drastically reduce choices of destinations (Hotels, restaurants etc). Charging time is a problem too with 150mi every 30 mins at Supercharger. I spent 10+hrs (some including waiting in queue for up to 30min) at Superchargers for those 1800 miles. A equivalent 21mpg gas car will take 6 fill up at gas stations (or ~1hr). 

But I will say that it's a perfect city car if you can go home every night and top up at home, bonus if work offer free charging. Just don't leave town with it, at least not yet until charging infrastructure has a consensus on standards and build up. Most owners would say you can do it, but you don't really want to.

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## rage2

> http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php
> 
> how many patent holders hateraders in this thread?



Those hinges sure changed the world.

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## Seth1968

> Those hinges sure changed the world.



Faak. Ninja before me.

----------


## SKR

> http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php
> 
> how many patent holders hateraders in this thread?



Atta boy, don't let the haters get you down. You're right and with persistence you'll convince them.

----------


## Gestalt

> Atta boy, don't let the haters get you down. You're right and with persistence you'll convince them.



lol. The won't, And with persistance, the hateraders will convince me that tesla has done nothing for the industry or the world.  :ROFL!: 

You can lead a man to tits but you cant fsrce him to stick his head between them

no way Tesla has anmy impact.  :Wink: 

"It seems fitting given that Tesla Motors, under Musk's leadership, has been credited with pushing the entire automotive industry toward EVs. Even Bob Lutz, the chief rabble-rouser at General Motors, has hailed the company for giving the industry a swift kick in the ass and proving lithium-ion battery technology could work in cars.
"Tesla gave us a major impetus," Lutz said a few months back during the Los Angeles Auto Show. "I'm thankful to Tesla for giving those of us who championed the Chevrolet Volt proof that lithium-ion batteries would work.""

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> All Tesla really does is produce a glitzy overpriced novelty car, and if we are really being frank, it isn't even a very good or useful one... it has had about as much impact on the automotive industry as Abercrombie & Fitch have had on the v-neck tee shirt market. The only area I give him credit is in somehow building a Bre-X-esque inflatable empire on his piece of shit car with nothing but the power of hype.
> 
> One day people will wake up to the fact that his cars are fugly, poorly built, not very useful, and soon not even unique or competitive in the electric car niche... and the Musk bubble will pop. It will be one of the most dramatic scandals ever whenever it fails, so grab some popcorn!



It's a beautiful, poorly built, useful 80-90% of time car. As long as you don't drive more than 300km per day and you always parks at a charger while you sleep, it could work. It's just not as versatile as gas cars until another revolution of battery/charging tech arrives.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> All Tesla really does is produce a glitzy overpriced novelty car, and if we are really being frank, it isn't even a very good or useful one... it has had about as much impact on the automotive industry as Abercrombie & Fitch have had on the v-neck tee shirt market. The only area I give him credit is in somehow building a Bre-X-esque inflatable empire on his piece of shit car with nothing but the power of hype.
> 
> One day people will wake up to the fact that his cars are fugly, poorly built, not very useful, and soon not even unique or competitive in the electric car niche... and the Musk bubble will pop. It will be one of the most dramatic scandals ever whenever it fails, so grab some popcorn!



Ah, another phreak Tesla rant to make my day.



 :Love:

----------


## Waldi

> It's a beautiful, poorly built, useful 80-90% of time car. As long as you don't drive more than 300km per day and you always parks at a charger while you sleep, it could work. It's just not as versatile as gas cars until another revolution of battery/charging tech arrives.



Study shows that on average persons drives less than 50km a day. So provided that Tesla has 300km limit, it serves very well this kind of market/customer. Sure if you drive a lot and may be off bitten path, this solution may not work for you. In terms of cost on average Tesla cost ~$2.80/100km, on average city driving say 10l/100km @$1/l the cost is ~$10/100km, about 70% more. So for average driver in the city it may be worth switching. I do not even want to go into tech secs, where if you like "burning rubber"- zero to 100, well no comment. For some folks might the question should I buy new Porsche or Tesla (cool factor + specs). From engineering standpoint, every manufacturer goes through pains of starting new production and quality at the beginning, with time these improve. I think we are at the stage where all car makers will move into this space and competition will only help with quality and cost. Tesla is a disruptor and innovator, and it is here to stay.

----------


## Xtrema

> Study shows that on average persons drives less than 50km a day. So provided that Tesla has 300km limit, it serves very well this kind of market/customer. Sure if you drive a lot and may be off bitten path, this solution may not work for you. In terms of cost on average Tesla cost ~$2.80/100km, on average city driving say 10l/100km @$1/l the cost is ~$10/100km, about 70% more. So for average driver in the city it may be worth switching. I do not even want to go into tech secs, where if you like "burning rubber"- zero to 100, well no comment. For some folks might the question should I buy new Porsche or Tesla (cool factor + specs). From engineering standpoint, every manufacturer goes through pains of starting new production and quality at the beginning, with time these improve. I think we are at the stage where all car makers will move into this space and competition will only help with quality and cost. Tesla is a disruptor and innovator, and it is here to stay.



So I like to take some friends to Lake Louise. That's 184km. I will not make it home without a trip to a super charger. So now I have to plan a trip to Golden for lunch, recharge for about 40-50mins (if there is no queue), and come home. And my lunch choice while it's charging is McD and a BBQ joint. And that's if you have a Tesla. If you have anything else, you are SOL on slow chargers.

That's what I meant EV is a 80-90% car, you will need something else for the other 10%. For most people right now, even a Civic is a 100% car.

We need more DC fast charging infrastructure before EV will work for long haul. And for that to happen, they must standardize from the 3 standards right now down to 1. So all can charge at the same chargers.

----------


## suntan

> We need more DC fast charging infrastructure before EV will work for long haul. And for that to happen, they must standardize from the 3 standards right now down to 1. So all can charge at the same chargers.



And extract a fuckton of copper. Mmm, more tailing ponds.

And then lay down said copper.

And then build new power plants.

And then build charging stations.

Surely this will be an easy task.

----------


## npham

> For some folks might the question should I buy new Porsche or Tesla (cool factor + specs).



Thankfully the Mission E is going to come out and you can have a Porsche and the "cool factor and specs" all in the same car. Not sure when Porsche became uncool, but they are going to sell a truckload of these EV cars. 

Additionally, while the average cost per 100km for a Tesla might be cheaper, the entry price point is 2-5 times more expensive. If you can afford a Tesla, you likely do not care about this savings. No one buying a Tesla is thinking about the cost savings per 100km and how it's a great deal.

----------


## KPHMPH

> So I like to take some friends to Lake Louise. That's 184km. I will not make it home without a trip to a super charger. So now I have to plan a trip to Golden for lunch, recharge for about 40-50mins (if there is no queue), and come home. And my lunch choice while it's charging is McD and a BBQ joint. And that's if you have a Tesla. If you have anything else, you are SOL on slow chargers.
> 
> That's what I meant EV is a 80-90% car, you will need something else for the other 10%. For most people right now, even a Civic is a 100% car.
> 
> We need more DC fast charging infrastructure before EV will work for long haul. And for that to happen, they must standardize from the 3 standards right now down to 1. So all can charge at the same chargers.



Lake Louise has charger for its guests at the front of their parking lot.....FYI

----------


## Gestalt

> Lake Louise has charger for its guests at the front of their parking lot.....FYI



Hateraders don't care they like to swallow in their hate. not to metion by boss has made lake louise and back on one charge. the car is good for 99.99% of typical driving and these guys just like to trash it.

- - - Updated - - -




> it has had about as much impact on the automotive industry as Abercrombie & Fitch have had on the v-neck tee shirt market. T






> lol. The won't, And with persistance, the hateraders will convince me that tesla has done nothing for the industry or the world. 
> 
> You can lead a man to tits but you cant fsrce him to stick his head between them
> 
> no way Tesla has anmy impact. 
> 
> "It seems fitting given that Tesla Motors, under Musk's leadership, has been credited with pushing the entire automotive industry toward EVs. Even Bob Lutz, the chief rabble-rouser at General Motors, has hailed the company for giving the industry a swift kick in the ass and proving lithium-ion battery technology could work in cars.
> "Tesla gave us a major impetus," Lutz said a few months back during the Los Angeles Auto Show. "I'm thankful to Tesla for giving those of us who championed the Chevrolet Volt proof that lithium-ion batteries would work.""



aRE YOU SECRETLY bOB lUTZ? Carlos gHOsN?  :Clap:

----------


## dirtsniffer

It's too bad your mom didn't like to swallow. Would have saved us a bunch of headache.

----------


## Gestalt

Too bad your mom drank so much during your last turm

----------


## speedog

> Too bad your mom drank so much during your last turm



What is 'turm'?

edit...

turm in British
(tɜːm)
noun
archaic , poetic
a troop of horsemen
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright  HarperCollins Publishers

----------


## Xtrema

> Hateraders don't care they like to swallow in their hate. not to metion by boss has made lake louise and back on one charge. the car is good for 99.99% of typical driving and these guys just like to trash it.



I'm not hating on it. Just properly representing the shortfall I experienced for my 2 weeks. Fact is now I'm back on ICE, I wish to have a Model S as a daily (even a lowly 75D) as I was stuck on Shag this morning. Regen braking is addictive and having ICE running during traffic jam is kinda pointless.




> Lake Louise has charger for its guests at the front of their parking lot.....FYI



2 NEMA14-50, that's cool. Do they force people to leave or will that be occupied by guest with no end in sight?

----------


## rage2

An interesting look at TCO of Model 3 now that it doesn't include free supercharging.




$8.60 for 167 miles of range for the Model 3. Comparing a similar vehicle (Mercedes C350e PIH) rated at 30mpg gas only, it would take 5.6 gallons of fuel to go the same range, or $16.94 at California's gas prices. Comparing to a more efficient hybrid (Toyota Prius) at 52mpg, it would take 3.2 gallons of fuel to go the same range, or $9.78 at California's gas prices.

The TCO advantage is eroding without free charging.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

House of cards gets a little shakier every few months. 

Gestalt's trolling? The same.

----------


## benyl

Forget cost, let' look at emissions:

43 KWh = 0.031992 metric tons CO2

5.6 gallons of gas = 0.0497672 metric tons CO2

3.2 gallons of gas = 0.0284384 metric tons CO2

According to : https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhous...and-references

----------


## blownz

> 43 MWh = 0.031992 metric tons CO2



43 Mwh or Kwh?

And that is some crazy expensive electricity. Although I have never tried looking at what my actual cost is per kwh when you add in all the additional fees the utility companies add to the bill...

----------


## benyl

K not M

----------


## rage2

> And that is some crazy expensive electricity. Although I have never tried looking at what my actual cost is per kwh when you add in all the additional fees the utility companies add to the bill...



It's the US, well specifically California. That's why I used Cali gas prices too, which is 50% higher than the rest of the US. Will be curious to see how it looks in other states once we see some more charging receipts.

----------


## Xtrema

> $8.60 for 167 miles of range for the Model 3.



Well, Model S I drove I can do around 350wh/mi consider 50/50 city/hwy. 167mils = 58kwh.

Cali has 3 rates (4th if you include what Supercharger charges):

At 0.36 per kwh On-peak: $21.04
At 0.20 per kwh Tesla Supercharger rate: $11.69
At 0.17 per kwh Mid-peak: $9.94
At 0.09 per kwh Off-peak: $5.26

So that's why they are pushing solar roof and home battery so hard.

In Alberta, Supercharger charges at per min rate instead of per kwh rate. So it get tricky and if you want maximum range, because charging speed really depends on how many cars are at the charger and what condition your battery is at. When battery close to 90% full, charge speed slows to 1/2 to 1/3 of maximum. So if they charge you per min, you last 20-30mile of buffer would cost as much as you 1st 200miles.

BTW Rage, why is C350e not available in Canada?

----------


## 90_Shelby

> Forget cost, let' look at emissions:
> 
> 43 KWh = 0.031992 metric tons CO2
> 
> 5.6 gallons of gas = 0.0497672 metric tons CO2
> 
> 3.2 gallons of gas = 0.0284384 metric tons CO2
> 
> According to : https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhous...and-references



This post in addition to Rage2's are very interesting!

----------


## zhao

> An interesting look at TCO of Model 3 now that it doesn't include free supercharging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $8.60 for 167 miles of range for the Model 3. Comparing a similar vehicle (Mercedes C350e PIH) rated at 30mpg gas only, it would take 5.6 gallons of fuel to go the same range, or $16.94 at California's gas prices. Comparing to a more efficient hybrid (Toyota Prius) at 52mpg, it would take 3.2 gallons of fuel to go the same range, or $9.78 at California's gas prices.
> 
> The TCO advantage is eroding without free charging.



Just wait until electricity prices skyrocket too from all this stupidly expensive renewable energy movement crap and increased demand on top of that for transportation usage.

----------


## speedog

InsureMyTesla - link to article. Interesting read.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Auto insurance will need to modify the business model as self driving cars and even cars with more advanced safety features become more common. . Selling insurance and maintenance as a bundled package is very smart, although it remains to be seen if that would be profitable or just another loss leader to help hype company valuation.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Auto insurance will need to modify the business model as self driving cars and even cars with more advanced safety features become more common. . Selling insurance and maintenance as a bundled package is very smart, although it remains to be seen if that would be profitable or just another loss leader to help hype company valuation.



They just want to attack any part of the market that will stop and slow their growth.

At this point, Elon will do and promise a bunch of stuff that may or may not make sense to keep the party going.

Today it's about building a factory near Shanghai. 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/22/...-vehicles-cars

How about trying to get Model 3 out to the remaining 440,000 pre-orders where 60,000 cancelled because they can't wait.

----------


## blownz

This reminds me of a call I had with my insurance company at my last renewal:

Me: So since both of my vehicles have auto cruise control, automatic emergency braking, blind spot monitoring, and lane keeping steering assists, do I get a discount?

Agent: No

Me: So for my next vehicle I should save some money and not get the added safety features and be more likely to get into an accident?

Agent: Ummm......

If you get a discount for an alarm you should get a discount for some of these safety features. I imagine this will start to be a big thing not just with Tesla vehicles, but others as well. But knowing insurance companies they will likely suddenly start adding a surcharge to those vehicles that don't have the features rather than a discount for those that do. lol

----------


## rage2

Agree with most points. Tesla isn't the only one with these features, lots of cars have them now, just not as marketable as Tesla. IIRC the reason why Tesla's insurance rates went up in the US was due to the average cost of claims now that there's enough data. They're not cheap to fix in an accident.

----------


## suntan

> This reminds me of a call I had with my insurance company at my last renewal:
> 
> Me: So since both of my vehicles have auto cruise control, automatic emergency braking, blind spot monitoring, and lane keeping steering assists, do I get a discount?



These things have to have a material effect on accident rates before insurance companies lower rates based on them.

----------


## blownz

Agreed, but I don't see how they will ever tell on some models. For instance, a lower level car like a Civic where say less than 10% of all sold have all the safety features. Those 10% may get into significantly fewer accidents, but I doubt the insurance companies look at specific options on vehicles. Just the vehicle line as a whole. So if suddenly 10% of the Civics are getting in far fewer accidents, all Civics might get a 1% reduction in premiums when really those 10% maybe deserve 10-15% and the rest nothing. In fact, even on many higher end German cars most of those features are still options.

That is why I think it should be kind of like the alarm. If you have it, you get a small break.

----------


## suntan

They do ask for your trim model.

----------


## blownz

I think for value. And trim still doesn't tell you if the car has optional safety features (at least not on all cars).

----------


## rage2

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/01/...l-3-struggles/

Terrible quarter for Tesla. Biggest loss in history.

Terrible month for Tesla. They delivered 2 Model 3's. WTF?

----------


## killramos

> https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/01/...l-3-struggles/
> 
> Terrible quarter for Tesla. Biggest loss in history.
> 
> Terrible month for Tesla. They delivered 2 Model 3's. WTF?



Hey that’s just because of where the start and end of the month and quarter was. Stop trying to spread blasphemous negativity about Tesla, it’s all fake news. They are taking over the world you know. 

Sounds like time for an equity raise!

----------


## BavarianBeast

I'm short selling TSLA. 

Down to $200 bitches.

----------


## rage2

> I'm short selling TSLA. 
> 
> Down to $200 bitches.



Too soon IMO.

Short sellers taking a beating this year.

----------


## benyl

> Hey that’s just because of where the start and end of the month and quarter was. Stop trying to spread blasphemous negativity about Tesla, it’s all fake news. They are taking over the world you know. 
> 
> Sounds like time for an equity raise!



The haterz don’t know they invented the electric car!

----------


## Xtrema

So what will Tesla failing looks like? Do they have anything worth salvaging by normal manufacturers or anyone? Gigafactory for penny on the dollar? Bailed out by BYD or some Chinese company?

The problem as well the autopilot is nowhere to be seen while there are all kind of action on that outside of Tesla.

----------


## rage2

> The biggest question on all our minds now is whether they can scale. Rage are you still a doubter? As far as anyone can tell, they are on track to get to a run rate of 240k cars a year by dec, double that some point in 2018. If thats not scaling, I don't know what to tell you.



 
@supe
 just want to bring this back to the discussions since we talked about revisiting this in December.  :Wink:

----------


## suntan

> So what will Tesla failing looks like? Do they have anything worth salvaging by normal manufacturers or anyone? Gigafactory for penny on the dollar? Bailed out by BYD or some Chinese company?
> 
> The problem as well the autopilot is nowhere to be seen while there are all kind of action on that outside of Tesla.



They won't fail, Musk will get even more investors to plow in money like crazy. He is quite the talker.

Besides they fired some workers, that'll teach them to laze around on the job!

----------


## Xtrema

> @supe
>  just want to bring this back to the discussions since we talked about revisiting this in December.



They blame gigafactory output but they can do battery/solar installation in weeks at Puerto Rico and Australia at short notices.

----------


## RealJimmyJames

"Production Hell" is two cars? They trying to train hamsters to assemble them or what? Pretty sure any single person with ten fingers could assemble two cars in a month.

----------


## rage2

> The problem as well the autopilot is nowhere to be seen while there are all kind of action on that outside of Tesla.



Haven't even talked about the mess that's autopilot. Class action lawsuit right now, people paying $8k for vaporware. AP2 still isn't on par with AP1 today, let alone full autonomy.  :crazy nut: 

It came up on the conf call, Elon shrugged it off, but was forced to answer that if in fact full autonomy needs more hardware than AP2, Tesla will upgrade hardware for free. Now from a Tesla as a company perspective, that's fucking brutal. From a customer perspective, great news, if they can make it that far.

I'm expecting a capital raise pretty soon again, but with how their 2025 non convertible bond is trading, it'll be interesting to see how many people are still willing to throw money at them.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> @supe
>  just want to bring this back to the discussions since we talked about revisiting this in December.



That's a month away, Tesla days are like dog years so that's plenty of time!

----------


## rage2

Well Tesla says ramp up won’t be till Q1 now so unless they beat projections...  :ROFL!:

----------


## kenny

> Well Tesla says ramp up won’t be till Q1 now so unless they beat projections...



They said end of Q1... and you might think that means end of March, but that's based on the arbitrary nature of when a quarter ends.

Must be so awesome to miss personal targets at Tesla... well, the date on my goals are just arbitrary dates... I will get them done eventually.

----------


## rage2

Some more interesting tidbits after reading through their quarterly update last night, and it goes back to Tesla's ability to scale up efficiently. Tesla really needed to produce more efficiently at the factory than when it was NUMMI to make things work. That was the whole point of them reinventing the production wheel. At peak, the NUMMI plant was about to produce around 360k cars a day, and by the time it was sold to Tesla cheaply, it was producing around 320k per year in their final years.

Tesla had to repurpose parts of the X/S line for Model 3's, reducing their capacity to 1800 per week. They're expected to drop production more on X/S to make way for 3's, but we'll just use their current number of 1800/week here.

Yesterday's update had an interesting tidbit. Update is here:

http://files.shareholder.com/downloa...er_2017-3Q.pdf




> While we continue to make significant progress each week in fixing Model 3 bottlenecks, the nature of manufacturing challenges during a ramp such as this makes it difficult to predict exactly how long it will take for all bottlenecks to be cleared or when new ones will appear. Based on what we know now, we currently expect to achieve a production rate of 5,000 Model 3 vehicles per week by late Q1 2018, recognizing that our production growth rate is like a stepped exponential, so there can be large forward jumps from one week to the next. We will provide an update when we announce Q4 production and delivery numbers in the first few days of January. With respect to the timing for producing 10,000 units per week, it has always been our intention to implement that capacity addition after we have achieved a 5,000 per week run rate. That will enable us to make the next generation of automation even better while making our capex spend significantly more efficient.



So 5000/week for Model3 is at best at the Fremont plant, putting it at 6800/week best case scenario. That puts it at 354k/year assuming no holiday shutdowns, or slightly under the peak capacity when it was the NUMMI plant. The problem here is that they'll need another massive amount of capex spending to expand to 10,000/week, which is what they need to be profitable in the first place based on Tesla's own projections. It was always the impression that the current spending was to get to 10,000/week at this plant, which as of last night, isn't the case anymore. That was the advantage that Tesla had, in that they bought this plant for next to nothing.

Of course, production and sales is a whole other side discussion, if there is even demand for 500k Model 3's per year.

edit - best case scenario based on favorable math and Tesla's own estimates, assuming they hit those targets.

edit2 - NUMMI churned out 428,632 vehicles in 2006. At best of 354k a year, Tesla is still nowhere near NUMMI's record year, and that's with Tesla already building out Fremont and expanding square footage since their purchase.

----------


## BavarianBeast

> Too soon IMO.
> 
> Short sellers taking a beating this year.



Perfect timing!!

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Or, to put it another way.....




>

----------


## suntan

> "Production Hell" is two cars? They trying to train hamsters to assemble them or what?



Worse: Americans.

----------


## rage2

> Perfect timing!!



It'll be over 300 by EOD and back to 320's by next week!  :ROFL!: 

edit - 299.26, I was close!

----------


## HiTempguy1

Sounds like a lot of the production holdup is the welding as their previous cars were all aluminum and now they are dealing with steel and aluminum.

Apparently they skipped a pretty standard method of testing the welding programming and just jumped right in. Tesla blames a subcontractor they hired to do the programming of the welding robots.

----------


## rage2

The welding steel vs aluminum was a rumor. It may be true, it may not be. Nobody knows. Only thing we do know is that Tesla blamed problems with battery production in yesterday's call, with no specific details aside from writing 20 years of code in 3 weeks or something silly. For their sake, let's hope welding isn't the next bottleneck to crop up.

----------


## Gestalt

Tesla was also busy building designing a new power grid in Porto Rico, already providing power for a children's hospital, schools community center, trying to hold off the disaster capitalists.

----------


## Xtrema

> Tesla was also busy building designing a new power grid in Porto Rico, already providing power for a children's hospital, schools community center, trying to hold off the disaster capitalists.



That's why when they said shortage from gigafactory is a total BS. 

They fucked up somewhere engineering wise or manufacturing wise.

----------


## rage2

> Tesla was also busy building designing a new power grid in Porto Rico, already providing power for a children's hospital, schools community center, trying to hold off the disaster capitalists.



They're not designing a new power grid in Puerto Rico. They're taking some buildings (so far, just a hospital) off grid with solar panels and powerwalls for storage. They didn't just build this all of a sudden, they just took inventory, flew it down there, and installed it.

Tesla says they will continue to do this for several other locations. They can't do this for residents, there's not enough space to generate enough power from solar because of density. The hospital one they did was a smaller hospital, which took up 2/3 of the parking lot to pull it off, taking over a larger area than the hospital itself. Most likely temporary till the power grid is fixed.

----------


## benyl

> Tesla was also busy building designing a new power grid in Porto Rico, already providing power for a children's hospital, schools community center, trying to hold off the disaster capitalists.



Did they fly down their assembly personnel and robots? WTF does working in PR have anything to do with the fact that they skipped an important step in tool testing and it is now biting them in the ass. This was predicted.

http://www.newsweek.com/tesla-skips-...model-3-588503

This isn't hate. Just reality. Elon is of course scapegoating others (Programmers)

----------


## 90_Shelby

This is a decent article about Tesla on Jalopnik:

https://jalopnik.com/teslas-hell-thr...ure-1819917980

----------


## HiTempguy1

I've been involved in a little bit of manufacturing, but not much. What I want to understand is why they can't simply hire the right people to fix their problems. Unless the underlying problem is poor design. They have some pretty whizbangy shit on their production line, but its not rocket science what they are doing.

Any ideas why battery production is so slow? I would have assumed its simply a scaled up version of their previous plants.

----------


## suntan

Musk comes from the software world where "Move Fingers Faster!" is an actual productivity increaser.

Manufacturing doesn't work that way. Get the line right or else that's 20000 batteries down the shitter.

----------


## rage2

> I've been involved in a little bit of manufacturing, but not much. What I want to understand is why they can't simply hire the right people to fix their problems. Unless the underlying problem is poor design. They have some pretty whizbangy shit on their production line, but its not rocket science what they are doing.



My understanding is, Musk and Tesla feels they can do this better than traditional manufacturing, and they're finding out now it's not that easy. Elon's goals 9 months ago was to make an automotive factory 10x more efficient than everyone else. They can hire people to fix their problems, but they'll just point to tried and proven methods that Tesla doesn't want. They want to revolutionize car manufacturing so that it's faster and more efficient in less space than what's possible with everyone else.

So far, they're failing. See my post above on factory scale. They haven’t even come close to the cars produced at the same plant when it was NUMMI (Toyota Chevy partnership) before they sold everything to Tesla, and that’s not even taking account any expansion done by Tesla.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Elon is right. If you want to do things differently than the rest of the industry, you can't just hire someone who will try to do things in the same old ways as your competition. 

Incremental improvements aren't going to get him where he claims he's going. So he's doing this the right way for the claims he's made. 

I give him a 20%chance of success. So far the market has given better odds......

----------


## Gestalt

Puerto Rico cancelleds its contract with its electric company

Tesla is working on a plan to take over. Bet on it. Tesla is a philantropist and opportunist. And the massive failure by the conventionals is a big chance to show off for him.

http://m.benzinga.com/article/10265416

----------


## JustinL

> Bet on it.



Do you have any skin in the game?

----------


## ExtraSlow

An easy way to bet real money on the success of publically traded companies exists.

----------


## Xtrema

> I've been involved in a little bit of manufacturing, but not much. What I want to understand is why they can't simply hire the right people to fix their problems. Unless the underlying problem is poor design. They have some pretty whizbangy shit on their production line, but its not rocket science what they are doing.
> 
> Any ideas why battery production is so slow? I would have assumed its simply a scaled up version of their previous plants.



Reading a report that while the block is from gigafactory but it wasn't battery. It's drivetrain and some supplier dropped the ball. Don't know if it's another BS excuse.




> Puerto Rico cancelleds its contract with its electric company
> 
> Tesla is working on a plan to take over. Bet on it. Tesla is a philantropist and opportunist. And the massive failure by the conventionals is a big chance to show off for him.
> 
> http://m.benzinga.com/article/10265416




I think it make sense for any island based population close to equator. If you are going to rebuild, get the latest tech. But I think the problem isn't really generation but the grid which Tesla have nothing to contribute directly. But battery storage can definitely offset some outages. If they can bury the lines that lead to strategically placed battery banks and solar farm, it will be way better than what they have now.

----------


## suntan

Haven't the people of Puerto Rico suffered enough?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> That's right, spread your dwindling resources even thinner Elon... oh when the shareholder money finally dries up, the failure of Tesla is going to be down right historical! Biggest scam ever!



Thanks for that useless conjecture Mr Musks unsuccessful evil twin wanna be.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

> Do you have any skin in the game?



 I'm have nunerous hybrid certifications now, i work on all the hybrids that come into the shop. We have a Model 3 on order, and I am now splitting my uber money into Tesla stock and my solar panel project. We are adding 10 more 315 watt panels in the spring. A big step for us. 

Common sense technology is not a bad thing.

----------


## JustinL

> I am now splitting my uber money into Tesla stock and my solar panel project.



What price did you get into Tesla stock at?

----------


## GTR_Auto

> What price did you get into Tesla stock at?



I remember looking at Tesla stock when it was $17  :facepalm:

----------


## Gestalt

> What price did you get into Tesla stock at?



Dollar cost averaging. Its ongoing.

----------


## suntan

> Dollar cost averaging. Its ongoing.



Translation: Way too much.

Also brokerage fees. Whee!

----------


## killramos

Lol brokerage fees would be so far down my list of worries if I was investing in Tesla.

I think Gestalt makes up a fantastic example of how I picture average TSLA investor.

----------


## Gestalt

Im a long term guy. I dont car what it does in a year or 5. I still own the first apple shares my parents bought me 8 years ago, and now we are buying long term real estate. Plan to keep it till we are ready to retire.

Trying to time a crooked industry our puny investments have no influence on is futile. Im good with whatever i paid. Its my money.  :crazy nut:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Maxt

I'm not so sure a model 3 buyer will be as patient as a model s buyer... Consumer reports just loves the model x.. All aspects of model 3 production have to be up to speed, the production line is only as fast as its slowest part.

----------


## Xtrema

> I'm not so sure a model 3 buyer will be as patient as a model s buyer... Consumer reports just loves the model x.. All aspects of model 3 production have to be up to speed, the production line is only as fast as its slowest part.



Apparent a lot has cancelled due to wait time. Canada won't see any until 2019. And Ontario may cancel EV credits if Liberal loses the province. So everyone wanted a EV is grabbing whatever they can now. Ioniq was sold out. E-Golf are hard to come by etc.

I guess same hold true in US as the new tax bill that also kills the federal EV credit.

----------


## Gestalt

> Yep.... feed all the monies to Elon, haha
> 
> Also why the inevitable crash will be so epic. People that believe in Telsa are throwing everything they have into it. Imagine Andrew Yip, but a million of them! Bre-X investors at least in part knew the risk, Tesla investors on the other hand are so blinded by hype and rainbows they think it is a sure thing.



Are you going to be one of thsoe guys that commits sucide when one day Tesla appears as the payee on your utility bill?  :Wink:

----------


## suntan

> Lol brokerage fees would be so far down my list of worries if I was investing in Tesla.



He's taking his Uber earnings - so what, $500/2 weeks? And buying, what, one, two shares twice a month? Yeah that's a terrible buying practice.

----------


## zhao

> Im a long term guy. I dont car what it does in a year or 5. I still own the first apple shares my parents bought me 8 years ago, and now we are buying long term real estate. Plan to keep it till we are ready to retire.
> 
> Trying to time a crooked industry our puny investments have no influence on is futile. Im good with whatever i paid. Its my money.



You'll care when its trading at $100 a share.

Total revenue for 2017 is pegged at maybe 12 billion (probably more like 10-11). Profit is pegged at being about -2 billion dollars. Cash on hand will probably be in the 2 billion dollar range (it was reported at 3.5 in q3 right?). Tesla will burn through their cash and have to raise more funds by next summer at this rate. 

There are companies with more revenue, better tangible assets, and that are actually profitable with market caps in the 10 billion dollar range. I would say 80%+ of tesla's share value is based on complete hype from management and hype for the industry they are in. Basically people are buying snake oil and assuming the stock will keep going up because the big profit making breakthrough is just around the corner. This stock is like bre-x, its like the US housing market in the mid 2000s, its like the stock market in general in the 1929s before the big crash. 

and even if you ignore that, you can't deny they will have to borrow or dilute the hell out of shares yet again probably around summer of next year. Constant dilution is the killer of a stock, and once people stop thinking its going to keep hitting new highs its going to crash hard, like apple stock in the early 2000s which went from $88 down to $14-16 in the span of a week (although I think tesla will be a year long slow crash).

The thing that saved apple was their ace in the hole.... microsoft needed them as competition, so apple couldn't fail. Telsa has a real chance that they wont exist in 5-10 years (because no one needs them around; infact if they just went away a lot of companies would probably be pretty happy). Not as you know it anyway. I'd predict their share price tanking followed by someone gobbling them up.

----------


## killramos

I still maintain that I can’t wait to buy my Ford Focus “Tesla” electric in a few years.

Actually by then the i5 will be out and I would much rather have that.

----------


## suntan

> Im a long term guy. I dont car what it does in a year or 5. I still own the first apple shares my parents bought me 8 years ago, and now we are buying long term real estate. Plan to keep it till we are ready to retire.
> 
> Trying to time a crooked industry our puny investments have no influence on is futile. Im good with whatever i paid. Its my money.



So you don't "car" what it does in year or 5 but you're DCA'ing it. Good fucking job moron.

God you're so full of shit.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

This will blow your mind clean out of your skull. Tesla introduces the electric heavy truck. 
http://business.financialpost.com/tr...educe-truckers

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> This will blow your mind clean out of your skull. Tesla introduces the electric heavy truck. 
> http://business.financialpost.com/tr...educe-truckers



Jack of all........master of none. Ummmm, applause?

----------


## benyl

> Haha, I am sure that truckers are going to jump at the opportunity to spend double on a truck that has to stop for 1 hour recharges at fictitious charging stations for every 2 hours they drive, lolz.



The bigger issue is not the stop time as truckers can only work a certain number of hours anyway. It is the loss of cargo volume that is going to prevent companies from adopting it.

----------


## you&me

> The bigger issue is not the stop time as truckers can only work a certain number of hours anyway. It is the loss of cargo volume that is going to prevent companies from adopting it.



What loss of cargo volume?

----------


## mr2mike

Relax guys, these won't actually get made.
Elon is the Flavor Flav of the business world.

----------


## KPHMPH

Being in the trucking industry I actually believe this is a brilliant idea. 

For lots of runs here in Alberta at least ( Edmonton to Calgary, Edmonton to Grande Prairire, Edmonton to Llyodminister, etc ) this truck fits the bill excellent. Power is substantially cheaper than diesel when your powering a vehicle.

----------


## mr2mike

Could also run Natural Gas powered Semi's.... but we don't.
City could run Nat Gas busses.... but we don't. 
It's not about emission reduction, it's about money. 
So E-Semi's aren't exactly going to change the game unless the price point is equal to a Diesel. 

2014 article.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...selling-better

----------


## KPHMPH

But the thing is price point will be a thing when you factor in a diesel bill vs electricity bill...

As it looks right now I burn 1000 L of diesel a day in my own truck.... I don’t know the exact numbers but how much would that be in electricity vs diesel.

----------


## Seth1968

Uhhh, where's the electricity going to come from, and how will it affect electricity prices in general?

----------


## benyl

> What loss of cargo volume?



http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/tesla-semi-1.4404799




> Heavy batteries eat into cargo
> 
> Tesla also has to convince the trucking community that it can build an affordable electric big rig with the range and cargo capacity to compete with relatively low-cost, time-tested diesel trucks.
> 
> The heavy batteries eat into the weight of cargo an electric truck can haul. The truck can go up to 800 kilometres at maximum weight at highway speed, Musk said, without giving the size of the payload.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> 2014 article.
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news...selling-better



I don't think an article from 2014 compares to where we are now.

Also, their stats are bogus. I can assure you trucking companies don't retire trucks at 500k miles (or at least, that doesn't mean they are done, that means they get sold to someone else).

http://www.fleetowner.com/truck-stat...ck-demand-rise

http://www.overdriveonline.com/tag/a...lass-8-trucks/

The lifespan of a class 8 (semi) is up to around 1 million miles before it starts to become uneconomical for people to keep running them (in a business sense). Still see MANY 1.2million miles trucks for sale for personal use such as hauling race cars or conversions into RV haulers.

KPHMPH is exactly right, if you ever drive H2 during peak hours, half the traffic is semis. This would be incredibly useful for short haul trucking between major city centers, and with the price of diesel vs electricity right now, the savings could end up being very lucrative for a company.

Edit-



> http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/tesla-semi-1.4404799




Well, CBC is a garbage news source so...

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/th...he-tesla-semi/




> The Tesla Semi will go 0 to 60 mph in just 5 seconds, which is incredibly fast compared to a diesel truck. It can go 0 to 60 mph towing 80,000 lbs, its max tow load



80k lbs is max load in USA. Interestingly enough, a lot of trucks haul heavier in Alberta. For normal goods, no big deal, but for O&G, it would be an issue.

----------


## Xtrema

The only thing Elon is hiding on the Truck release is battery size.

He claims 400miles in 30 mins. But Model S can only do 170miles in the same time at Superchargers. So are they coming up with another charging standard/rate?

Something doesn't add up there. Model S is only 5000lbs. The Semi could weight up to 100,000lbs with full load. What kind of wizardry is this?

----------


## finboy

> The only thing Elon is hiding on the Truck release is battery size.
> 
> He claims 400miles in 30 mins. But Model S can only do 170miles in the same time at Superchargers. So are they coming up with another charging standard/rate?
> 
> Something doesn't add up there. Model S is only 5000lbs. The Semi could weight up to 100,000lbs with full load. What kind of wizardry is this?



Vapourware-wizardry?

----------


## mr2mike

> I don't think an article from 2014 compares to where we are now.
> Also, their stats are bogus. I can assure you trucking companies don't retire trucks at 500k miles (or at least, that doesn't mean they are done, that means they get sold to someone else).



True on both cases, but its the best I came up with. 
Not in the trucking business to be bothered to run economics on this but in general it's tough to adopt brand new tech until forced to by changes in laws or reduction in inital costs.

----------


## killramos

Hearing rumors of a new roadster in the works. At least they are going back to what they know, low production niche products for the rich.

How long can Musk go without releasing a headline?

----------


## kenny

> The only thing Elon is hiding on the Truck release is battery size.
> 
> He claims 400miles in 30 mins. But Model S can only do 170miles in the same time at Superchargers. So are they coming up with another charging standard/rate?
> 
> Something doesn't add up there. Model S is only 5000lbs. The Semi could weight up to 100,000lbs with full load. What kind of wizardry is this?



Yes, the semi trucks will have a new charging standard. Charging stations will be called Mega Chargers.

----------


## killramos

Giga chargers will be next year  :ROFL!:

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Vapourware-wizardry?



I know this may blow some of your minds, but bear with me here.

What if... there were MULTIPLE BATTERY PACKS? GASP! It's almost like you could have multiple batteries charging at once...

A battery "pack" is a collection of cells. Just saying what you guys are saying makes no sense. It isn't the same as a gas tank, which is one hollow volume that can only be filled one way, with a limited input method (the fill nozzle). It really isn't extraordinary to have a solution like this.

Seriously, I completely understand the Tesla hate, that's fine. But lets all use a little common sense in our bashing, ok? :p

----------


## Strider

> Hearing rumors of a new roadster in the works. At least they are going back to what they know, low production niche products for the rich.
> 
> How long can Musk go without releasing a headline?



https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/405...Tesla-Roadster

----------


## killramos

> I know this may blow some of your minds, but bear with me here.
> 
> What if... there were MULTIPLE BATTERY PACKS? GASP! It's almost like you could have multiple batteries charging at once...
> 
> A battery "pack" is a collection of cells. Just saying what you guys are saying makes no sense. It isn't the same as a gas tank, which is one hollow volume that can only be filled one way, with a limited input method (the fill nozzle). It really isn't extraordinary to have a solution like this.
> 
> Seriously, I completely understand the Tesla hate, that's fine. But lets all use a little common sense in our bashing, ok? :p



Its simple really, they will all be at least B trains except one of the trailers is just full of batteries. EZPZ. More range? Swap out the battery trailer for a new one at the next truck stop.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Its Venti man, get it right!

 :ROFL!:

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Its simple really, they will all be at least B trains except one of the trailers is just full of batteries. EZPZ. More range? Swap out the battery trailer for a new one at the next truck stop.



I get you are joking, but it would be hilarious if that was the solution  :ROFL!: 

But once again, you are doing exactly what I asked not to (not that anyone has to listen to wtf I ask, but still).

I wanted to blow my brains out finding the actual physical dimensions of the Tesla battery packs. Best I could come up with for the 85kwh battery was 112"x70"x5". So, you would need 8 of those (680kwh) to power a truck towing 80,000lbs for the duration and speeds being quoted. The new packs are 100kwh, but I couldn't find dimensions, and lets assume due to packaging and so many batteries under high load heat could become an issue and the 100kwh packs are downrated or some other crap.

The packs would be 4' thick total for 8 if you figure there will be some sort of cooling/separation between each pack. On a semi with so much space and configuration options, this is a non-issue.

So I dunno. Again, while the hate may be valid, it certainly isn't for the reasons we are talking about. It also would not be unreasonable at all for a 53' semi-trailer to have a pup trailer attached to it full of batteries. Or have you seen reefer (ac) trailers? Their cooling units are about the same size as the pack described. You could have all the trailers just have the pack systems on the front of them. Grab loaded charged trailer, run it wherever, drop it off, grab other trailer, and continue on.

As someone who deals with freight on a regular business, trailers sit for long periods of time at depots while they wait for various orders to be filled. None of this is even "technology in a few years" stuff. This all could reasonable be done right now.

----------


## dj_patm

You can't just add more weight to justify keeping the payload high.

It's not about how much they can haul, it's about the roads and bridges they drive on. This will work for short hauls. Cannot see it working for long hauls.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> It's not about how much they can haul, it's about the roads and bridges they drive on.



Lolwut?

With a theoretical maximum of 80k lbs for gvw (going by USA laws), I can assure you most trucks hauling throughout this province in industry not related to O&G are under that. You think those doritos trucks going up and down the highway are hauling heavy??  :ROFL!: 

The point is that within the limits of the legal gvw, 9600lbs is not make or break. It certainly is something to be considered, but its not remotely a show stopper. So yes, to a certain extent you CAN justify adding more weight to keep the payload high. And its not about "adding". They said the trucks are good for 80k lbs  :dunno:  The engine/transmission combination that is gotten rid of in a typical semi is 4k lbs right there. So you'd only be adding 4k lbs of batteries to the total weight.

----------


## dj_patm

I worked for Loblaws in transportation. Almost everything they haul is maxed out on either tandem or tri axle trailers. Yes, somethings are lighter, most aren't (think about it, most things you buy aren't half air like potato chips. A load of pop or flour or sugar or milk is still going to weigh a lot). If they're maxed out, you can't just add more weight. Every province has their own restrictions for weight and how many axles you need, the more axles the more expensive, heavier and specialized the trailer.

You take away more than 10% of that capacity and add in additional hour long stops to already tight schedules (both driver hours and scheduling at the DC's) and you have a non-starter for long haul. With more and more businesses moving to JIT inventory practices you need shorter lead times, not longer. Also most fleets have perfectly good trucks with plenty of spare parts. WTF are you going to do when your Tesla Electric truck craps out in the middle of nowhere? Are they going to fly out a Tesla mechanic? Breakdowns happen all the time and right now you can quickly get a mechanic with parts to just about anywhere and get the load moving again. That's not going to be the case with these Tesla trucks.

This would work for short haul which is why I assume Wal Mart is interested (plus they're probably getting a huge discount)

I just reached out to the Loblaw guys I know and they're not interested in Tesla's trucks but they are looking into electric shunts to move trailers around their lots.

----------


## benyl

> Yes, the semi trucks will have a new charging standard. Charging stations will be called Mega Chargers.



Wonder if Elon is going to get into the Truck Stop Stripping business. haha

----------


## KPHMPH

With the amount of weight being stripped from the engine, transmission and axels you will have a huge amount of savings for the new batteries. It will comes down to how much each electric engine will weigh and what he makes the trucks out of.

----------


## VWEvo

> I worked for Loblaws in transportation. Almost everything they haul is maxed out on either tandem or tri axle trailers. Yes, somethings are lighter, most aren't (think about it, most things you buy aren't half air like potato chips. A load of pop or flour or sugar or milk is still going to weigh a lot). If they're maxed out, you can't just add more weight. Every province has their own restrictions for weight and how many axles you need, the more axles the more expensive, heavier and specialized the trailer.
> 
> You take away more than 10% of that capacity and add in additional hour long stops to already tight schedules (both driver hours and scheduling at the DC's) and you have a non-starter for long haul. With more and more businesses moving to JIT inventory practices you need shorter lead times, not longer. Also most fleets have perfectly good trucks with plenty of spare parts. WTF are you going to do when your Tesla Electric truck craps out in the middle of nowhere? Are they going to fly out a Tesla mechanic? Breakdowns happen all the time and right now you can quickly get a mechanic with parts to just about anywhere and get the load moving again. That's not going to be the case with these Tesla trucks.
> 
> This would work for short haul which is why I assume Wal Mart is interested (plus they're probably getting a huge discount)
> 
> I just reached out to the Loblaw guys I know and they're not interested in Tesla's trucks but they are looking into electric shunts to move trailers around their lots.



I think your post points out how little you know about Electric vehicles and in particular the Tesla Semi. The likelyhood of it breaking down is significantly less than a normal diesel truck. Also, you also missed the part that it takes 30 mins to charge 400 miles. Watch the full reveal and pretty much everything you posted has already been refuted. 

As for reaching out to your Loblaw buddies, given than its not even been 24 hours since the truck is released, I doubt they know very much about it. Not to mention, I also doubt they have very much say in whether a multibillion dollar company like Loblaw's would use Diesel vs Electric.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## dj_patm

> I think your post points out how little you know about Electric vehicles and in particular the Tesla Semi. The likelyhood of it breaking down is significantly less than a normal diesel truck. Also, you also missed the part that it takes 30 mins to charge 400 miles. Watch the full reveal and pretty much everything you posted has already been refuted. 
> 
> As for reaching out to your Loblaw buddies, given than its not even been 24 hours since the truck is released, I doubt they know very much about it. Not to mention, I also doubt they have very much say in whether a multibillion dollar company like Loblaw's would use Diesel vs Electric.



Ahh yes the "it won't break down" argument. That's a classic. Don't think multi-billion dollar companies are going to just take your word for it considering the consequences if it does breakdown and Tesla had massive reliability issues when they first started producing the Roadster and Model S. An extended breakdown in the cold or with perishable food could spoil the entire load and lead to run outs of on sale product and it could cause deadlines to be missed which ripples down the entire supply chain. Do you think trucking companies are going to take that risk based on Elons pinky promise? Are they going to risk $100,000 loads and multi million dollar contracts when they already have perfectly fine trucks that they can get parts for in every town? Unless this electricity is free I have a hard time seeing the benefits for them in long haul. Produce is especially finicky since it's timed so that it arrives in the store as ripe as possible.

So an hour every 800 miles? So you're going to add at least 2 hours (if you're lucky) each way to runs from California or out east? You can't just do that as it cuts in to driver hours. Also how good is the range when it's -30 outside? How much range is lost to heat the cabin, run TV's and all the other stuff these guys have on board? 

The guys I talk to are senior managers and directors of inbound transport. They would 100% be included in the conversation. If Wal Mart already has an order placed, you can guarantee that Loblaws would know about it.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## KPHMPH

> Ahh yes the "it won't break down" argument. That's a classic. Don't think multi-billion dollar companies are going to just take your word for it considering the consequences if it does breakdown and Tesla had massive reliability issues when they first started producing the Roadster and Model S. An extended breakdown in the cold or with perishable food could spoil the entire load and lead to run outs of on sale product and it could cause deadlines to be missed which ripples down the entire supply chain. Do you think trucking companies are going to take that risk based on Elons pinky promise? Are they going to risk $100,000 loads and multi million dollar contracts when they already have perfectly fine trucks that they can get parts for in every town? Unless this electricity is free I have a hard time seeing the benefits for them in long haul. Produce is especially finicky since it's timed so that it arrives in the store as ripe as possible.
> 
> So an hour every 800 miles? So you're going to add at least 2 hours (if you're lucky) each way to runs from California or out east? You can't just do that as it cuts in to driver hours. Also how good is the range when it's -30 outside? How much range is lost to heat the cabin, run TV's and all the other stuff these guys have on board? 
> 
> The guys I talk to are senior managers and directors of inbound transport. They would 100% be included in the conversation. If Wal Mart already has an order placed, you can guarantee that Loblaws would know about it.



I’m not sure if your don’t listen or are just ignorant to what Elon was saying.

He wants to focus on short hauls first, not cross country.

----------


## dj_patm

> I’m not sure if your don’t listen or are just ignorant to what Elon was saying.
> 
> He wants to focus on short hauls first, not cross country.



I said I agree it'll work for short hauls. The issue then becomes what company is going to buy specific trucks that are only useful for short hauls? The answer would be a very narrow niche of companies that have either the scale of deliveries that they own their own fleet just for short haul (that would be your Wal Marts). Companies like Wal Mart don't own tens of thousands of trucks. Loblaws uses 3rd party carriers for everything. I believe Sobeys also uses third party trucks (not 100% sure though) for all of their pick ups and deliveries. Third Party carriers will not buy a truck that they can't utilize on long routes. 

I'm also curious to how line ups at these charging stations would work. Sure it takes 30 min for a 400 mile charge, but if there's only a handful of charging stations along a route and thousands of trucks a day, the line ups are going to be insane. These guys already wait for hours at distribution centers, at weigh in stations and at terminals. 

I just think it's another Elon Musk hype fest just like his promise to send two tourists to the moon in a few months. It's hard to take him seriously, and I'm a big fan of his overall. His whole empire just seems like a house of cards right now with a few legitimate projects holding up a bunch of fugazy nonsense.

----------


## Brent.ff

> Ahh yes the "it won't break down" argument. That's a classic. Don't think multi-billion dollar companies are going to just take your word for it considering the consequences if it does breakdown and Tesla had massive reliability issues when they first started producing the Roadster and Model S. An extended breakdown in the cold or with perishable food could spoil the entire load and lead to run outs of on sale product and it could cause deadlines to be missed which ripples down the entire supply chain. Do you think trucking companies are going to take that risk based on Elons pinky promise? Are they going to risk $100,000 loads and multi million dollar contracts when they already have perfectly fine trucks that they can get parts for in every town? Unless this electricity is free I have a hard time seeing the benefits for them in long haul. Produce is especially finicky since it's timed so that it arrives in the store as ripe as possible.
> 
> So an hour every 800 miles? So you're going to add at least 2 hours (if you're lucky) each way to runs from California or out east? You can't just do that as it cuts in to driver hours. Also how good is the range when it's -30 outside? How much range is lost to heat the cabin, run TV's and all the other stuff these guys have on board? 
> 
> The guys I talk to are senior managers and directors of inbound transport. They would 100% be included in the conversation. If Wal Mart already has an order placed, you can guarantee that Loblaws would know about it.



...sooooo gotta ask, why did they order 25?

http://www.bnn.ca/loblaw-orders-25-o...rucks-1.918774

----------


## dj_patm

> ...sooooo gotta ask, why did they order 25?
> 
> http://www.bnn.ca/loblaw-orders-25-o...rucks-1.918774



Guess it must be for the east. 

Still even if they sell 1000 of these trucks. Is it worth the hype?

----------


## HiTempguy1

> you have a non-starter for long haul



Never was talking about long haul. So lets throw the first part of your post out the window.




> You take away more than 10% of that capacity



Incorrect again, as I demonstrated, 5% at most, not including the fact that I would hazard a guess the truck itself overall will be lighter due to the design. Trucks, by their nature, are quite limited with ICE systems.

Again, I'm not attacking you on this. There are legitimate uses for this technology which I can get behind, and I HATE the idea of electric vehicles.

This article has some really good, factually based info on why it won't work period. Which sucks if they can't get these things figured out.

http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/ne...=1510948505333

----------


## VWEvo

> ...sooooo gotta ask, why did they order 25?
> 
> http://www.bnn.ca/loblaw-orders-25-o...rucks-1.918774






> Guess it must be for the east. 
> 
> Still even if they sell 1000 of these trucks. Is it worth the hype?



Almost spit my water out looking at this, lol!!!

I thought your "upper management" buddies said not interested!! 

Again, if you watch the video, they said that 80% of heavy transport is under 250 miles. 

Do you want to keep adding more of your thoughts so everyone can prove you wrong, including Loblaws.

----------


## tonytiger55

> Yes, the semi trucks will have a new charging standard. Charging stations will be called Mega Chargers.



Would have been awesome if they named the truck Mega Tron.. Missed marketing opportunity..

----------


## dj_patm

> Almost spit my water out looking at this, lol!!!
> 
> I thought your "upper management" buddies said not interested!! 
> 
> Again, if you watch the video, they said that 80% of heavy transport is under 250 miles. 
> 
> Do you want to keep adding more of your thoughts so everyone can prove you wrong, including Loblaws.



Because the decision to buy 25 trucks is hardly earth shattering? It's a stock PR plug.

Short haul might be 80% of all moves but it's not serviced by 80% of trucks. 100 trucks can serve all of a major grocery stores outbound deliveries in the province with ease and they are intended to last a decade. Load up on Tesla stock, they're going to sell 500 trucks year.

----------


## VWEvo

> Because the decision to buy 25 trucks is hardly earth shattering? It's a stock PR plug.
> 
> Short haul might be 80% of all moves but it's not serviced by 80% of trucks. 100 trucks can serve all of a major grocery stores outbound deliveries in the province with ease and they are intended to last a decade. Load up on Tesla stock, they're going to sell 500 trucks year.



I agree its hardly earth shattering, although given that these trucks likely cost at least $500-$750K each ($12.5M -$18.5M), and it wasn't even 12 hours after they are announced I wouldn't ignore that. Loblaws themselves said they want their whole fleet to be electric by 2030. Again, all this goes completely against what your saying. I think your credibility has already been proven to be pretty much none existent. But keep coming up with your facts, they are fun to hear.

----------


## Seth1968

Either I'm missing the obvious, or everyone else has never given it much thought. So again:

Where is this electricity going to come from, and how will it affect electricity prices?

----------


## dj_patm

> I agree its hardly earth shattering, although given that these trucks likely cost at least $500-$750K each ($12.5M -$18.5M), and it wasn't even 12 hours after they are announced I wouldn't ignore that. Loblaws themselves said they want their whole fleet to be electric by 2030. Again, all this goes completely against what your saying. I think your credibility has already been proven to be pretty much none existent. But keep coming up with your facts, they are fun to hear.



Their fleet isnt that big thats my point. 

Also a lot of LTL short hauls are hauled by small trucks so I wonder if that was included in that 80% number.

----------


## benyl

> Well, CBC is a garbage news source so...
> 
> https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/th...he-tesla-semi/
> 
> 80k lbs is max load in USA. Interestingly enough, a lot of trucks haul heavier in Alberta. For normal goods, no big deal, but for O&G, it would be an issue.



It doesn't specify what percentage of that load is Truck, Trailer and Battery.




> This article has some really good, factually based info on why it won't work period. Which sucks if they can't get these things figured out.
> 
> http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/ne...=1510948505333



It seems that this statement from the Carnegie Mellon Study from your article supports the CBC conclusion that battery weight will reduce cargo volumes.




> That same study also estimates that the battery required for a long-distance big rig could weigh as much as as 22 tons — in other words, according to the study, the truck’s battery is heavier than its payload

----------


## Xtrema

> I just reached out to the Loblaw guys I know and they're not interested in Tesla's trucks but they are looking into electric shunts to move trailers around their lots.



Your Loblaws guys must be low on the totem pole. Loblaws just ordered 25 from Tesla.

http://business.financialpost.com/ne...-fleet-by-2030

Walmart also ordered 15 for trials.

Even for short haul, it fundamentally sounds like a good solution if it can charge for 30min to 1 hr while it unloads at destination.

And the stores can also offer the charging system to customers while their semi is not using it and may be make a few $. This solves the lack of Supercharger problem as well.

This is actually more interesting than Roadster 2020 if Tesla can actually deliver.

----------


## speedog

> Either I'm missing the obvious, or everyone else has never given it much thought. So again:
> 
> Where is this electricity going to come from, and how will it affect electricity prices?



With all of the conversions to LED lighting, one would think that there's some electricity savings there, no?

----------


## KPHMPH

Is Elon’s speach he said the chargers will be solar powered, powering on site battery packs. I can see this working good down south but not so much up here.

Also - another WalMart post

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/17/wal-...ic-trucks.html

----------


## Gestalt

:facepalm:  love the technologically challenged.  :Pooosie: 

Tesla changes the world again!

But hey, the stock is going to collapse any day now  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

*0-60 in 1.9
250mph+ top speed*
(the haters are foaming at the trof)  :Wink: 


https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/17/...test-car-world

----------


## speedog

You didn't notice that other thread?

----------


## Gestalt

> You didn't notice that other thread?



no, seems strange having two tesla hater threads.

----------


## zhao

> love the technologically challenged. 
> 
> Tesla changes the world again!
> 
> But hey, the stock is going to collapse any day now



2 new products and their stock didn't move at all. up 4% at open, and then everyone took profit that could and it was back down to previous day closing. That's not good if a stock built on hype doesn't react heavily to news like that.

Why I dont think this truck will go anywhere: reliability. Transports need to be reliable because downtime is a killer. Now electric can be hella reliable in theory with far less moving parts and I believe someone will built a truck that is electric and will work great, but telsa's are not reliable... or cheap. Cost is the 2nd reason I dont think it will work, both from cost of purchase and from 'fuel'. electricity could go up and up in the future thx to renewable power bullshit and that could price these things out of anyone's interest.

PLus how much R&D did they put in to this thing (time + money)? lols. I'm guessing they basically just built what they thought a semi should be like and are basically wrapping a turd in a shiny wrapper like they did with their first car. I would avoid.



I can't wait for a telsa airplane announcement which will probably be in the next year O_o.

----------


## Gestalt

> 2 new products and their stock didn't move at all. up 4% at open, and then everyone took profit that could and it was back down to previous day closing. That's not good if a stock built on hype doesn't react heavily to news like that.
> 
> Why I dont think this truck will go anywhere: reliability. Transports need to be reliable because downtime is a killer. Now electric can be hella reliable in theory with far less moving parts and I believe someone will built a truck that is electric and will work great, but telsa's are not reliable... or cheap. Cost is the 2nd reason I dont think it will work, both from cost of purchase and from 'fuel'. electricity could go up and up in the future thx to renewable power bullshit and that could price these things out of anyone's interest.
> 
> PLus how much R&D did they put in to this thing (time + money)? lols. I'm guessing they basically just built what they thought a semi should be like and are basically wrapping a turd in a shiny wrapper like they did with their first car. I would avoid.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wait for a telsa airplane announcement which will probably be in the next year O_o.



Im aure you know better than the guy that builds the fastest car in the world and a re usable spacesbip

Having said how ridiculous you sound. We alrrady have electric transports. Its not really new

----------


## ExtraSlow

I actually think Tesla has a better change if making a successful heavy truck than making a successful mass market automobile. The nature of the vehicle means they can be less efficient in production. 

It's a suitable market for electrification too, I don't think the technical challenges are significant for a large fleet operator. I also see costs being reasonable once significant government incentives are included either for lower electricity costs or for capital costs or both. 

This could work.

----------


## zhao

> I also see costs being reasonable once significant government incentives are included either for lower electricity costs or for capital costs or both.



I dont see incentives being a thing once electric vehicles are mainstream. Infact, the government is going to be looking at new sources of income if we switch from fossil fuels to electricity, and that is why I think you'll see cheap costs initially but ultimately we'll end up with something that parallels gas/diesel costs. The government already knows the market can bare that cost nicely, and i think its a safe bet that 'fuel' costs for electric cars will probably end up even more expensive than gas is. Expect electricity taxes, or higher taxes in another area to compensate for the lack of fossil fuel taxes coming in.

Capital incentives for consumers like us wont last long, but I think for corporations and infrastructure it will be the longest lived incentives in this market. Switching transport trucks to electric is very logical to eliminate pollution and it is in the government's best interests to insure that happens, but i dont see anything crazy happening in any other area of that market by the switch. Same old shit, different pile, and all that. Vehicle manufacturers would be shooting themselves in the foot if they made these things hyper reliable so that they didn't need parts, or servicing, or didn't need to have a fleet turned over by a certain time period.

----------


## zhao

> Im aure you know better than the guy that builds the fastest car in the world and a re usable spacesbip
> 
> Having said how ridiculous you sound. We alrrady have electric transports. Its not really new



Holy shit, its almost like i was specifically talking about tesla, not every electric vehicle out there. oh wait, let me put it in words you can understand.

hly shatif, its almst luk eye waz spekifically takfdaing abfout TELSA BEST COMPANY EVER OMG ID SUCK ELON OFF HES A DREAM BOAT, not evury elutruk vehucal out dar. oh wat let mee put iuht in wurds youu kan undurstund.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Bob Lutz, once a vocal supporter that credited Tesla just called them a losing enterprise... and went on to say that Tesla is "going out of business."
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/bob-l...rprise-2017-11



That is concerning, because he actually has experience putting a company out of business.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/ne...t-teslas-truck

----------


## ianmcc

> That is concerning, because he actually has experience putting a company out of business.



But he thought he was doing a good job.

----------


## Gestalt

> But he thought he was doing a good job.



Even though he helpd chapter 11 gm he is a car guy and did cool stuff like the viper gto and spearheading gms electric cars. He also said that electrification of cars is inevitable.

So you have to consider his opinion. Obviouly hes no tesla, but his opinion holds more water then the haters here, so im serious when i say its concerning.

----------


## Xtrema

> http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/ne...t-teslas-truck



5000lb Model S vs 100,000lb fully loaded truck, so 20x the weight. But just for fun say you only need 10x the battery.

100kwh Model S, then a truck will need 10 packs.

So if a truck pulls up to a 10 Stall Supercharger and run all 10 cables into those 10 packs in the truck. It's possible.

EDIT: oh snap, I guess I wasn't far off.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/17...1-6-megawatts/



That's one beefer charger. 2MW per truck.

----------


## suntan

What the headline says: "Loblaws order 25 electric trucks".

What the average fucking idiot sees: "Loblaws entire fleet of trucks to be electric".

What the smart Beyonder sees: "Loblaws order 25 electric trucks, will be lucky to have 2 delivered without having them catch on fire first".

----------


## dirtsniffer

> Even though he helpd chapter 11 gm he is a car guy and did cool stuff like the viper gto and spearheading gms electric cars. He also said that electrification of cars is inevitable.
> 
> So you have to consider his opinion. Obviouly hes no tesla, but his opinion holds more water then the haters here, so im serious when i say its concerning.



You know telsa died around 70 years ago right?

----------


## benyl

Elon is Tesla reincarnate.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dj_patm

> What the headline says: "Loblaws order 25 electric trucks".
> 
> What the average fucking idiot sees: "Loblaws entire fleet of trucks to be electric".
> 
> What the smart Beyonder sees: "Loblaws order 25 electric trucks, will be lucky to have 2 delivered without having them catch on fire first".



So the numbers are $200,000 USD in savings over 1.6 million miles.

Considering it's short haul only and the cost of the trucks, it's a PR move. Not a bad one though. People will eat it up in Toronto if they ever actually get the trucks.

----------


## npham

Model 3 orders have been opened up to the public; before they have sorted out their production issues...I guess they were running low on cash and needed more deposits to float them.

Additionally, r/teslamotors is as bad as r/the_donald. Avoid going there at all costs.

----------


## Xtrema

> Model 3 orders have been opened up to the public; before they have sorted out their production issues...I guess they were running low on cash and needed more deposits to float them.
> 
> Additionally, r/teslamotors is as bad as r/the_donald. Avoid going there at all costs.



These are for those 500,000 people who reserved to get their order in.

They won't get any more cash than what they already got.

You can always pay them $1000 to get in queue. That has not changed since 3 was originally announced.

But yes, at current rate Tesla is running out of cash in 9 months. That's why they are trying to get reservation $$ from Roadsters and Trucks.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

FCV’s are still electric cars though no? Just lowers the vehicles battery requirements significantly?

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## killramos

Hydrogen combustion engines  :ROFL!:  I remember when BMW made the 7 series with a hydrogen combustion engine, the 200HP V12  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## zhao

that is tech i could get behind. natural gas is extremely cheap and plentiful. It also wouldn't upset the balance of big car and big fuel, so I could see car manufacturers and the energy sector getting behind that tech.

----------


## JustinL

This isn't really new technology. I have a friend working for Bloom Energy and they've been making these for a decade. Their model is a bit different in that they produce electricity in situ from natural gas. They've seem to have had a lot of trouble with the IPO, but the distributed electricity generation idea seems pretty good. Pairing an electric car with a home generating fuel cell seems like a great marriage.

----------


## Darkane

> This isn't really new technology. I have a friend working for Bloom Energy and they've been making these for a decade. Their model is a bit different in that they produce electricity in situ from natural gas. They've seem to have had a lot of trouble with the IPO, but the distributed electricity generation idea seems pretty good. Pairing an electric car with a home generating fuel cell seems like a great marriage.





Exactly. This technology only appears new because people don’t know it exists. 

From my texts (over 12 years old now) these were the fuel cells we learned about**:

• Polymer electrolyte membrane 
• Phosphoric acid 
• Aqueous alkaline 
• Molten carbonate 
• Solid oxide

The solid oxide fuel cell (SOFC) can reach 85% energy conversion efficiency when used in a cogeneration scenario. 

And that’s old tech.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

Fake news. Everybody knows battery electric vehicles have zero CO2 emissions.

----------


## rage2

Dont expect high performance out of fuel cells. The main advantage of fuel cells really is refueling time and lower weight compared to typical lithium ion batteries. The disadvantage is it takes up a fuck ton of space and it doesn’t provide the peak output of lithium batteries. Since the other thread is so entertaining, for a fuel cell to get Tesla Roadster level of promised performance, you’re still looking at 2000lbs of weight and 600L of space for the plates based on Toyota’s fuel cell specs. You can get around some of the limitations with a hybrid setup, small fuel cell that charges a battery or super capacitor for short bursts of peak output, but that’ll struggle against a track lap. 

Looking at other technologies, solid state batteries are promising, solves a lot of problems (size, recharge performance) but again, not really fit for a sports car as it weighs 2-3x more than a lithium ion battery. 

There’s a long ways to go before we have electric sports cars that can handle like gas powered cars with acceptable range. The foreseeable future is gas/electric hybrid to overcome the gaps of an ICE.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Nah, hydrogen ICE has gone nowhere in the last decade. Don't expect any breakthroughs whatsoever in that front. The big problem is NOx emissions, it can be reduced to near zero but sacrifices power output significantly.

----------


## speedog

Through the process of getting hydrogen out of natural gas, what is done with the carbon, nitrogen, sulphur and rare gases that are also in natural gas? Yes, the use of hydrogen as a fuel may only produce water as a byproduct which people will claim makes it a clean fuel but to get to hydrogen here is some mess that has to be taken care of first which always seems to be conveniently not mentioned.

----------


## Gestalt

My boss has a friend that more or less pioneered aftermarket efi based in California. He builds generators for marijuana growers down there now that run on hydrogen from simple hydrolisis of sea water. They do have start them up on natural gas, then slowly blend over to hydrogen running constant speed. Or something like that i was kinda listening as the boss was mad about elecric costs in calgary and they were talking about it.

Tesla is correct of course. It is very inneficient process, the only reason it's cheap for the growers is that sea water is near free.

----------


## SKR

> My boss has a friend that more or less pioneered aftermarket fuel injection based in California. He builds generators for marijuana growers down there now that run on hydrogen from simple hydrolisis of sea water. They do have start them up on natural gas, then slowly blend over to hydrogen running constant speed. Or something like that i was kinda listening as the boss was mad about elecric costs in calgary and they were talking about it.



Your boss's friend is Stuart Hilborn?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## SKR

> My boss has a friend that more or less pioneered aftermarket efi based in California. He builds generators for marijuana growers down there now that run on hydrogen from simple hydrolisis of sea water. They do have start them up on natural gas, then slowly blend over to hydrogen running constant speed. Or something like that i was kinda listening as the boss was mad about elecric costs in calgary and they were talking about it.
> 
> Tesla is correct of course. It is very inneficient process, the only reason it's cheap for the growers is that sea water is near free.



Why did you edit this post, but not provide the name of your boss' friend?

----------


## ExtraSlow

So this guy is separating hydrogen from seawater, and then burning the hydrogen to generate electricity? Where does he get all the energy to separate the seawater? 

It's not a complex process, but the energy balance doesn't work the way you describe.

----------


## Gestalt

> So this guy is separating hydrogen from seawater, and then burning the hydrogen to generate electricity? Where does he get all the energy to separate the seawater? 
> 
> It's not a complex process, but the energy balance doesn't work the way you describe.



It does. You generate more energy combusting hydrogen then it takes to separate it from sea water. Just like you get more energy combusting gas than it takes to get it out of the ground and process it.

----------


## rage2

> It does. You generate more energy combusting hydrogen then it takes to separate it from sea water. Just like you get more energy combusting gas than it takes to get it out of the ground and process it.



I wasn’t going to post anymore, but the fact that you’re breaking the law of conservation of energy, I just have to QFT and lol.

----------


## Darell_n

> It does. You generate more energy combusting hydrogen then it takes to separate it from sea water. Just like you get more energy combusting gas than it takes to get it out of the ground and process it.



The entire planet would be powered from hydrogen for the last 200 years if this was possible. Gasoline and diesel would never have existed.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the crazy.

----------


## rage2

What’s hilarious is that in Grade 3 science class I sketched a perpetual energy automobile using the same law breaking principal of a fuel cell powering electrolysis in a closed loop, in which my teacher said nice try and schooled me on the laws. So basically Gestalt is roughly at a grade 3 science level.

We shouldn’t explain the difference why pumping out oil is different just for the lolz.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Well you were a little ahead of the curve I'd say. That's probably junior high level science. Maybe even high school to understand how breaking long chain hydrocarbons releases energy on a net basis and how hydrolisis of water doesn't.

----------


## Gestalt

[QUOTE=ExtraSlow;4696138]I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the cratemperatru

There's as a rule no relarionship between the energy needed to separate one molecule and energy obtained combusting one of its components. Thats two different thing. Some molecules seperate naturally, some with a little temperatrue. Some with chemicals or catlysts.

In this case you are right by accident. It seems to takes only slighly less energy then you get burning it, ignoring comhustins deficiency which is terrible for ic.

Ill ask on Monday what i misunderstood.


https://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...s-calculations

----------


## Gestalt

> Whats hilarious is that in Grade 3 science class I sketched a perpetual energy automobile using the same law breaking principal of a fuel cell powering electrolysis in a closed loop, in which my teacher said nice try and schooled me on the laws. So basically Gestalt is roughly at a grade 3 science level.
> 
> We shouldnt explain the difference why pumping out oil is different just for the lolz.



Doubtful claim, assuming your grade 3 teacher knew anything about chemsitry. and of course you or he msiudnerstood the laws. https://education.alberta.ca/media/159711/elemsci.pdf

Then, there are a couple things that could be happening, we are talking about some pretty smart people (i heard it in passing and dont have the details, but i trust his knowledge). But there are these little examples of how it can be made more efficient.

https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/...ing-water.aspx

and an old one but i stillr emember the demonstration in hgih school.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlysatisf...sium_in_water/

----------


## ExtraSlow

That Stanford paper is actually completely relevant. It discusses how to use electricity to create fuels. 
Your idea (or your bosses buddies brothers idea) is to use electricity to create fuel to generate even more electricity. That's the part that doesn't work.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## zhao

> Ahhh, this thread delivers!



Everything but model 3s

----------


## killramos

Every time you thought you think you have settled on a foundation for Gestalts ignorance, you find another basement below full of stupid.

Its starting to get to the point where I feel bad for making fun of a disabled person. Well, almost feel bad.

Is Gestalt Thales?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

Tesla FTQ is apparently terrible. 

http://business.financialpost.com/tr...me-workers-say

----------


## ExtraSlow

Just lies spread by paid shills of big auto. They know thier days are numbered.

----------


## Xtrema

> Tesla FTQ is apparently terrible. 
> 
> http://business.financialpost.com/tr...me-workers-say



There was so many stories about car shipped without dash or seat to be installed by dealers. So this doesn't surprise me.

But of course, anyone point out the flaws of Tesla is working for big oil.

----------


## dj_patm

but I thought electric cars are SO reliable.

----------


## Xtrema

> but I thought electric cars are SO reliable.



If you make thru the tried and true manufacturing processes, yes. Nissan Leafs are almost bulletproof.

----------


## rage2

> If you make thru the tried and true manufacturing processes, yes. Nissan Leafs are almost bulletproof.



Arguably, EV drive trains are more reliable than ICE drive trains. The issue at hand is everything else, where it’s no different between the 2 kinds of vehicles. 

I tried to find supporting stats on drivetrain reliability between Tesla and any other manufacture but it seems that data is closely guarded on both sides. Tried going to JD Powers but Tesla doesn’t give them ownership data so they have no visibility into their cars at all.

----------


## benyl

> Arguably, EV drive trains are more reliable than ICE drive trains. The issue at hand is everything else, where it’s no different between the 2 kinds of vehicles. 
> 
> I tried to find supporting stats on drivetrain reliability between Tesla and any other manufacture but it seems that data is closely guarded on both sides. Tried going to JD Powers but Tesla doesn’t give them ownership data so they have no visibility into their cars at all.



If it was reliable, why would you hide it?

----------


## Gestalt

Financial post. Their tesla haters. Look at there story history. Even less credibility as national post


You believe the og industry isnt going to spend billions to slander the electric takeover?

----------


## rage2

> Financial post. Their tesla haters. Look at there story history. Even less credibility as national post



The source investigation and report came from Reuters.

----------


## dirtsniffer

Did you purposefully use the word their / they're /there incorrectly within 6 words of each other?!

----------


## Gestalt

Yeah. Reliable, nameless employees fired for doing shit work. Wana buy a bridge?

Didnt find this weird about toyota? 



> , average post-manufacturing fixes on fewer than 10 percent of their cars, according to industry experts



And 2000 out of 45000 teslas? Am I the only one who can divide?

----------


## rage2

> Yeah. Reliable, nameless employees fired for doing shit work. Wana buy a bridge?



From Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1DT0N3




> Reuters interviewed nine current and former Tesla employees, including a former senior manager, with experience in assembly, quality control and repairs on Model S and Model X. All requested anonymity because the company required them to sign non-disclosure agreements. Four of the people were fired for cause, including two last month as part of a mass dismissal of hundreds of workers for what Tesla said was poor performance. Sacked workers who spoke with Reuters denied they were poor performers.



What's next, Reuters is fake news?  :ROFL!:

----------


## ercchry

> From Reuters:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1DT0N3
> 
> 
> What's next, Reuters is fake news?



#illuminati #rothchilds #banthecentralbanks

----------


## Gestalt

Obviously fake news, with better quality standards tgen toyota by there data  :ROFL!: 

400+ shitty workers getting revenge? That's a consipracy? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...past-week.html

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Did you purposefully use the word their / they're /there incorrectly within 6 words of each other?!



Troll game keeps fooling you all....

----------


## Seth1968

> Troll game keeps fooling you all....



Except, he's not a troll. 

Defending his position of pixie dust propaganda? Well that's a given, but he's not a troll.

----------


## Gestalt

July 17 Consumer Reports put the a tesla back on top of its list. #1 ultra luxury.
Cnbc. business insider, natiinal review, Call it the best car ever. Was motor tend car of the year.

And just gets better every year.

Its amazing its by accident. Musk made it no secret that he expected tesla and space x to fail. His commitment is creating a movement and bringing awarenes. And look at the attention and rssults. Best car ever made. Fastest production car made. Every auto maker niw has an electric some have plans to go full electric.

He's a threat to traditional gas power. A threat to coal, oil and gas. Industries that start wars to make money. They will do anything they can to try and slow down progress.

----------


## killramos

Ultra luxury, at least they are being honest by inventing a new class considering they refuse to properly conform to class lines. 

Can’t wait to see what Giga Luxury looks like.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Tesla... Best car ever made.



 aaaannnndddd there it is.

----------


## benyl

> Ultra luxury, at least they are being honest by inventing a new class considering they refuse to properly conform to class lines. 
> 
> Can’t wait to see what Giga Luxury looks like.



Tesla will invent a new class called Hyper Luxury. Best car in the world. Door seals leaking is fake news.

----------


## Gestalt

> Tesla will invent a new class called Hyper Luxury. Best car in the world. Door seals leaking is fake news.



Consumer rpeorts. Not Tesla.

But i agree. Tesla has re invented the automobile. Its the most important car made since the model T.

The best passenger car in the world sure has a lot of haters.  :Wink: 

Like the best president. Trump.2

----------


## rage2

You're confusing what the car is capable of vs production quality. 2 completely separate areas of discussion. Not many people are arguing that Tesla is a shitty car. Some of the people in this thread are, but they have a use case (ie track use) that's really not the norm. I brought in the 3rd regarding price and ROI because Chinese.

At the end of the day, production quality doesn't *seem* to matter today. Tesla owners don't really seem to care too much about it, and enjoy taking the car in for service even for long stints as they get a better loaner than they bought (another question on sustainability), and have polled to buy Tesla again at a staggering 90%+ rate. They're wealthy early adopters, and are willing to forego the shortcomings of their vehicles when compared to traditional manufacturers.

At this stage, Tesla just needs to get the Model 3 production going to narrow their losses. The next question is, will the traditional car buyer be as forgiving as early adopters once they get their Model 3's? Looking at the segment in regards to the entry level luxury market, these are the wannabe ballers who nit pick every single thing from their extravagant purchases (it's not really THAT extravagant in the grand scheme of things). They value bang for the buck, so it'll be interesting to see how they react to the Model 3 if it can't solve the quality issue.

I'm in Vegas right now, and Oracle has Model X's to shuttle sone of us around. The falcon wing door gaps would absolutely piss me off. But that's just me, and I've outgrown the early adopter phase now that I'm an old fuck.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## suntan

He's just dumb and a liar.

----------


## Gestalt

We took a model x for a test drive for fun. Best vehicle made beside the model s. Stunning inside and out. Simply no way we want that payment. I drive and fix euro junk almost daily. You are being biased over nail polish, overlooking function and performance.

Im seriously thinking about buying a s a p90d. Tesla has some used inventory, they'll ship to local delaership, and financing. And wareanty is very attraxtive.

----------


## dj_patm

> We took a model x for a test drive for fun. Best vehicle made beside the model s. Stunning inside and out. Simply no way we want that payment. I drive and fix euro junk almost daily. You are being biased over nail polish, overlooking function and performance.
> 
> Im seriously thinking about buying a s a p90d. Tesla has some used inventory, they'll ship to local delaership, and financing. And wareanty is very attraxtive.



Stupidest vehicle ever made.

Lets give it doors for which every part is unique, can't open in tight places and for no real purpose.

Lets also give it a windshield that goes halfway up the roof so that a crack costs a few grand to fix.

Dumbest car ever made by a country mile and I like the Model S.

----------


## Xtrema

> We took a model x for a test drive for fun. Best vehicle made beside the model s. Stunning inside and out. Simply no way we want that payment. I drive and fix euro junk almost daily. You are being biased over nail polish, overlooking function and performance.
> 
> Im seriously thinking about buying a s a p90d. Tesla has some used inventory, they'll ship to local delaership, and financing. And wareanty is very attraxtive.



If a Model S/X is stunning, you sir have really low standard.

----------


## Gestalt

> Stupidest vehicle ever made.
> 
> Lets give it doors for which every part is unique, can't open in tight places and for no real purpose.
> 
> Lets also give it a windshield that goes halfway up the roof so that a crack costs a few grand to fix.
> 
> Dumbest car ever made by a country mile and I like the Model S.



Actually, the windsheild is only $1400 plus labour. but its super glass. musch stronger than most. the doors give much easier access.

- - - Updated - - -




> If a Model S/X is stunning, you sir have really low standard.



Business insider/ 



> We took the Tesla Model X SUV for a spin in Manhattan — and were blown away






> This is one stunning SUV. With the Model X, Tesla has taken a people hauler and transformed it into modern art, inside and out. But you can still drive it to soccer practice or tow 5,000 lbs.



Maybe I am biased against euro junk becasue i drive and fix it evryday. But probably not.

Nice video, why the Model 3 is the coolest car of 2017 (or 2020)  :ROFL!:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8

----------


## dj_patm

Super glass. Everything about Tesla seems to be super, hyper, ultra lol. So $1400 plus labor. And if your windshield shatters in a town without a Tesla dealership?

Give easier access until they break or if you park in a low clearance parkade.

Tesla buyers seem very short sighted and very optimistic.

----------


## zhao

> We took a model x for a test drive for fun. Best vehicle made beside the model s. Stunning inside and out. Simply no way we want that payment. I drive and fix euro junk almost daily. You are being biased over nail polish, overlooking function and performance.
> 
> Im seriously thinking about buying a s a p90d. Tesla has some used inventory, they'll ship to local delaership, and financing. And wareanty is very attraxtive.



Funny, i would list a lot of cars as better. What does it do that makes it the best car ever made? Fastest? No. Nicest looks, no. Best quality, no. Best interior? No. Handles the best? No. Cheapest to own? No. Uses the least power or fuel? No. Most comfortable? No. Most options? No. Most expensive? No. Best off-roader? No. Best city car? No. Safest? No. Best at self driving? No. Gets the most pussy? No. Cock? Maybe.

So what makes it the best? Personally I think the interior is a minimalist nightmare that is going to be extremely dated before it's even off warranty. I honestly rather have a BMW i3

----------


## killramos

> Im seriously thinking about buying a s a p90d. Tesla has some used inventory, they'll ship to local delaership, and financing. And wareanty is very attraxtive.



Grease monkey buying a 120 thousand dollar used car. May I interest you in the personal finance thread  :ROFL!: 

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/used?model=ms

I guess you will be taking it to race wars every weekend to pay it off?

This thread really delivers.

----------


## Seth1968

FFS.

I admit that I was wrong. 

Throwing this guy a bone just encouraged his pixie dust affiliation.

----------


## benyl

> Actually, the windsheild is only $1400 plus labour. but its super glass. musch stronger than most. the doors give much easier access.



https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...dshield.91883/




> here in the UK my delivery has been delayed, the MX arrived at the DC with a cracked windscreen. along with many others, such that European Distribution centre at Tillburg had no stock of replacement screens. Still waiting, will be at least 4 week delay. DC said this was a QC problem, so clearly something systematic and not one-off.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Doesn’t Tesla’s website already factor in gas “savings” into the lease price? Hahahahahaga

----------


## blownz

Those used prices are crazy. Do they really hold their value that well? And I really don't like that they don't show the year. There may not be a lot of changes year to year (aside from software) but it still matters how old the car is.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## SKR

I went to Speedy Glass to see about getting one of those $1400 super glass windshields for my vehicle, but those corporate shills acted like they didn't know what I was talking about.

I want a strong Tesla windshield but Big Oil won't let me.

----------


## Xtrema

> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...dshield.91883/



Lock stock because of low yield. So many defective ones. This guy got 2 in 1 year.

https://jalopnik.com/this-guy-docume...-wi-1819955046

----------


## Gestalt

> To be fair, Tesla offers 96 month plans @ 2.49 percent with as little as a 5K down payment that get the monthly cost down to around 1400 a month.
> 
> Sounds like a wise investment to me, just think how much you will save in gas and maintenance!



I do ok as a grease monkey. The car i was looking at is $105. The bonus will be better then the 14k last year.

While at the dealership they told me they have customers willing to buy our earlier model3 reservarion.

We are very good with finances and carry no debt beside the lease on my wifes e class and our revenue properties. Well be ok and could open the door to getting training in tesla service.

----------


## Gestalt

> Those used prices are crazy. Do they really hold their value that well? And I really don't like that they don't show the year. There may not be a lot of changes year to year (aside from software) but it still matters how old the car is.



Low mile ones. Yes. A bit cheaper in ontario where theu enjoyed the rebate. Options add up fast

----------


## dj_patm

The more I read about his exploits the more Tesla's issues become clear.

Elon is a visionary but a car manufacturer has very little to do with the ideas and everything to do with the execution. I'm not surprised that a tech mogul has completely shit the bed running a company with such a vast supply chain. Clearly the people he put in charge of procurement, production and distribution are not getting the job done.

Toyota has championed and basically invented things like Sixth Sigma, JIT and Kaizen, while making pretty boring ass cars and been very successful. Tesla has all of these ideas but can't even build one car well, yet they keep expanding their line.

----------


## Gestalt

The model S is nearly a perfect car. No shortage no pretend issues. Every year is improved over last.

----------


## dj_patm

> The model S is nearly a perfect car. No shortage no pretend issues. Every year is improved over last.



Race you to 200 km/h? 

Race you to Vancouver?

It's a near perfect car in the sense that you like it a lot so it's near perfect to you. I like to be able to drive my car, you know, every where?

----------


## RealJimmyJames

24 hours endurance race? 
Race until something breaks?

----------


## Gestalt

> Race you to 200 km/h? 
> 
> Race you to Vancouver?
> 
> It's a near perfect car in the sense that you like it a lot so it's near perfect to you. I like to be able to drive my car, you know, every where?



Genesis? 1/4 mile in 14 seconds in castrol for modded ones.  :ROFL!:  broken difs for 13 second highly modded ones. Ha We can even bet a cheeseburger, and ill give you the move.  :ROFL!:  wherss your back seat? Genesis is the dumbest $7000 car that you paid $40000 new for  :ROFL!: 

In my stupid youth I helped a friend build a awd vr6 golf. We made Vancouver in 6 hours. 2 detectors and 2 jammers. Im over that. We almost died a few times.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I think you missed his point... he is saying that even if he was driving Mrs. Daisy, he would still beat you by a ridiculous amount of time because you'd be stuck charging not just once, but twice.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet I could come up with a sub-10 second car for under $105,000.00
> 
> 
> Of course, then again I'd rather have a car that can do everything I really need, and more importantly, for a reasonable down to Earth price.



A genesis would break 3 times to vancouver. Worst 200hp car built.

----------


## revelations

> A genesis would break 3 times to vancouver. Worst 200hp car built.



Did you really just call that Supra a Genesis?

----------


## speedog

> Edit: not worth a response please delete



Do you actually believe a mod will heed your request?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Do you actually believe a mod will heed your request?



 :ROFL!:  It'll be funny if one does now just to say "Take that speedog! ".

----------


## zhao

> 24 hours endurance race? 
> Race until something breaks?



might as well make it a 10 minute 'enduro' race

...considering the tesla ran the nurburgring in 10 minutes, and couldn't do a 2nd lap. As we know from top gear, that's the same speed as a cargo van.

----------


## Darkane

> That is a Toyota... you could drive to Vancouver and back a dozen times without breaking a sweat
> 
> Besides, if all I wanted to do was beat a Tesla at the drag strip I'd just buy an SRT8 and chip it. More cargo space, more range, more power, half the price.



Chip it? Holy shit this did turn into the early 2000s.

----------


## dj_patm

> Genesis? 1/4 mile in 14 seconds in castrol for modded ones.  broken difs for 13 second highly modded ones. Ha We can even bet a cheeseburger, and ill give you the move.  wherss your back seat? Genesis is the dumbest $7000 car that you paid $40000 new for 
> 
> In my stupid youth I helped a friend build a awd vr6 golf. We made Vancouver in 6 hours. 2 detectors and 2 jammers. Im over that. We almost died a few times.



lol you missed the point, what a shocking development  :facepalm: 

Also I didn't pay anything close to 40, I didnt even pay 30, so yeah I'd hope your 100K car could beat it in a quarter mile. The embarrassing thing is that 1/4 mile is the only race that the Tesla would win since it can only run flat out for 10 minutes.

Im also over 110K on the dail without single mechanical issue so maybe the Tesla fan boy shouldn't get ahead of himself.

----------


## zhao

> lol you missed the point, what a shocking development 
> 
> Also I didn't pay anything close to 40, I didnt even pay 30, so yeah I'd hope your 100K car could beat it in a quarter mile. The embarrassing thing is that 1/4 mile is the only race that the Tesla would win since it can only run flat out for 10 minutes.
> 
> Im also over 110K on the dail without single mechanical issue so maybe the Tesla fan boy shouldn't get ahead of himself.



Dont forget. gestalt doesn't even own a Tesla. He's hoping to pay 70g for this so he's the least qualified to talk about value for your dollar:



+



+





aka

----------


## Gestalt

> Chip it? Holy shit this did turn into the early 2000s.



He's not a care enthusaist. he's some vancouverite hipster with a bicycle. Doens't know the first thing about cars. Srt8 wont touch a tesla, chipped  :ROFL!:  or not, unless it was being towed by a tesla.

----------


## revelations

> He's not a care enthusaist. he's some vancouverite hipster with a bicycle. Doens't know the first thing about cars. Srt8 wont touch a tesla, chipped  or not, unless it was being towed by a tesla.



Good luck car guy, he didnt call a Supra a Genesis.

----------


## Gestalt

> lol you missed the point, what a shocking development 
> 
> Also I didn't pay anything close to 40, I didnt even pay 30, so yeah I'd hope your 100K car could beat it in a quarter mile. The embarrassing thing is that 1/4 mile is the only race that the Tesla would win since it can only run flat out for 10 minutes.
> 
> Im also over 110K on the dail without single mechanical issue so maybe the Tesla fan boy shouldn't get ahead of himself.



certainly not. your slow car would lose to 200, or break, unless it was being towed by a tesla.

And a genesis would break down to vancouver 3 times, during a race and lose anyway. Hyudnai is litearlly the wors car built, and has no resale value. Where else can you go spend $40k k on a new 2013 genesis turbo with a few options, then open kijiji to day, and see poeple begging you to buy theres for $6000  :ROFL!: 

Move along troll, this trhead is about real enthusiast cars. not childrens toys.

----------


## Gestalt

> Good luck car guy, he didnt call a Supra a Genesis.



i was talking to dj, who challenged me and owns a genesis. why was what hispeter posted relevent to the disucssion? supra's are junk unless you spend $100k on top of the car, and from a set of lites, a p100d would smoke it.

----------


## dj_patm

> certainly not. your slow car would lose to 200, or break, unless it was being towed by a tesla.
> 
> And a genesis would break down to vancouver 3 times, during a race and lose anyway. Hyudnai is litearlly the wors car built, and has no resale value. Where else can you go spend $40k k on a new 2013 genesis turbo with a few options, then open kijiji to day, and see poeple begging you to buy theres for $6000 
> 
> Move along troll, this trhead is about real enthusiast cars. not childrens toys.



Again didnt even spend 30 new but you do you buddy. You're talking shit with a car you dont even own.

Truth of the matter is that the Model S is faaaar from the perfect car. It has many many practical flaws. One day when you can charge it in two minutes every 800 clicks with consistent production then you can talk.

----------


## Gestalt

> Again didnt even spend 30 new but you do you buddy. You're talking shit with a car you dont even own.
> 
> Truth of the matter is that the Model S is faaaar from the perfect car. It has many many practical flaws. One day when you can charge it in two minutes every 800 clicks with consistent production then you can talk.



way more perfect than a genesis. come one. You are just sounding silly now. I was at a genesis meet a year or two ago, jrscool dudes loode would beat any genesis in town im sure, and that's not saying much. real car enthusiasts wound not be caught dead dirving either, muslce car guy, race car guys, jay leno, real enthusiasts. but they line up to drive the tesla.

----------


## revelations

> real car enthusiasts wound not be caught dead dirving either,



Well, if you want to talk REAL CAR guys - only the REAL car guys can work on, and drive cars with Carbureators .... LOL

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I think the fastest record for a Tesla is 10.44s? This Jeep runs in the 9 second range:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean shit, if we are just going to compare fictional cars we don't actually own all day long... this will be mine



I have a friend who has a 9 second one. And it is far more then jsut chipped. stick to what you know. lattes and bike lanes.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I keep forgetting you have a "friend" or a "boss" that conveniently seems to own anything and everything so long as it adds street-cred to your posts 
> 
> Lattes are awesome btw, Starbucks has a Gingerbread one for the holidays that is pretty amazing... you shouldn't put them down
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, I wonder how a Tesla would do at Autocross?



Yeah. Agreed a auto tech and car enthusiast knows people that also habe entbjsiaist cars. It's a pumpin spice miracle.

----------


## Seth1968

> I keep forgetting you have a "friend" or a "boss" ]



 :ROFL!: 

Please don't ban Gestalt.

This shit is entertaining :Smilie:

----------


## Seth1968

BTW-

Most don't give a fuck about 0 to 60, or luxury for matter.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Model 3 sales numbers out today.

Initial target for Q3 (July-Sep) - 1628

Q3 hit the now famous 220 (30, 75, 115)

Q4 so far at 490 (145, 345)

Total sales to date - 710.

Showing a bit of promise in November @ 345. Still a ways to go to hit 5000/week.

----------


## ExtraSlow

You are just cherry picking arbitrary "months" and "quarters" to make them seem bad. They are amazing in reality and your bitterness is obvious.

----------


## benyl

Not only that, but they’ve only had to build the 345 once because they hit 100% quality with every build!

----------


## Xtrema

> Not only that, but theyve only had to build the 345 once because they hit 100% quality with every build!



No, 1000%.

Each car is 10x better than the one before it.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

You're all jealous because each car is a free-range, artisan-created masterpiece that emerges from its safe space.

----------


## dj_patm

Perfection

http://digg.com/video/tesla-autopilot-hits-barrier

----------


## JordanEG6

Subbed. 

This is a very entertaining thread.

----------


## supe

You win this round, but that roadster announcement came out of nowhere, which I guess creates a new round of hype. But you got to admit 3 months in the grand scheme of things means very little. Customer deliveries start very soon, things should only be ramping up from here. 

Meanwhile in yet another round of hype the semi already gaining traction as well. Again the quantity means little, but its names/partners that will keep the ball rolling. 

https://electrek.co/2017/12/07/tesla...ectric-trucks/

----------


## rage2

> You win this round, but that roadster announcement came out of nowhere, which I guess creates a new round of hype. But you got to admit 3 months in the grand scheme of things means very little. Customer deliveries start very soon, things should only be ramping up from here. 
> 
> Meanwhile in yet another round of hype the semi already gaining traction as well. Again the quantity means little, but its names/partners that will keep the ball rolling. 
> 
> https://electrek.co/2017/12/07/tesla...ectric-trucks/



Welcome back.  :Smilie: 

Gotta give credit where credit is due, Elon Musk is a master at creating hype and inflating stock prices, which is necessary to get them to their next round of fund raising. If it was anyone else, the ship would've sank long ago.

----------


## Homerrca

Looking at electric vs ICE vehicles, I see the same comparison with horse and the first vehicles being made. You would have had folks complain that they were no gas stations , expensive, can't go as far as a horse etc. but eventually it changed. This will be the same with electric vehicles IMO but I don't see tesla as that company or Elon Musk as that person. 

What we need is another Henry Ford to come out with a vehicle that can be mass produced and be affordable for the average person (I am pretty sure 60,000 - 120,000 is not an affordable vehicle to the average person).

----------


## dj_patm

I don't think anyone is arguing that Electric cars aren't the future. It's unavoidable. 

It will however, take decades to outnumber ICE.

----------


## Seth1968

> Looking at electric vs ICE vehicles, I see the same comparison with horse and the first vehicles being made. You would have had folks complain that they were no gas stations , expensive, can't go as far as a horse etc. but eventually it changed. This will be the same with electric vehicles IMO but I don't see tesla as that company or Elon Musk as that person. 
> 
> What we need is another Henry Ford to come out with a vehicle that can be mass produced and be affordable for the average person (I am pretty sure 60,000 - 120,000 is not an affordable vehicle to the average person).



 :Clap: 

That's exactly what I meant when I said, "Almost no one cares about 0-60, or an outlandish luxury name.

When the first "Model T" EV hits the market, is the time when the ICE car will meet it's demise.

----------


## Xtrema

> What we need is another Henry Ford to come out with a vehicle that can be mass produced and be affordable for the average person (I am pretty sure 60,000 - 120,000 is not an affordable vehicle to the average person).



There are plenty of EV under $50. Leaf and e-Golf can be had under $40K. 

The problem being it's not a 1 car solution because a $20K Civic get 400km with 10mins at the pump. EV won't 100% replace ICE until it matches this. Yes, I would have no problem charging it nightly but you can't take it out of town without very strict planning and lots of waiting.

----------


## Seth1968

Aside from the needed range / charging improvements, I was thinking more like $20,000.

----------


## dj_patm

> There are plenty of EV under $50. Leaf and e-Golf can be had under $40K. 
> 
> The problem being it's not a 1 car solution because a $20K Civic get 400km with 10mins at the pump. EV won't 100% replace ICE until it matches this. Yes, I would have no problem charging it nightly but you can't take it out of town without very strict planning and lots of waiting.



This.

Until it's the exact same convenience and practicality as ICE, it won't come close. At least not with North American gas prices the way they are.

Also, +30 Grand for a golf that isn't a GTI is ridiculous.

----------


## benyl

An electric car is no better than a horse. We are moving backward. haha, like a horse, you have to feed it which takes time. You have to rest it which takes time. A horse, nor an electric car cannot drive across Canada without stopping (I'm imagining refueling a car while driving). The "Henry Ford" you are talking about is going to come when battery packs can be replaced in 5-10 minutes like you can refuel a car. Or when they can electrify roads.

I'm gonna leave this here  :Smilie:

----------


## suntan

> Looking at electric vs ICE vehicles, I see the same comparison with horse and the first vehicles being made. You would have had folks complain that they were no gas stations , expensive, can't go as far as a horse etc. but eventually it changed.



That's actually not true at all. The infrastructure was all there. Passengers cars were actually the *last* thing to use ICE engines. ICE cargo infrastructure was already totally built out. The transition to passenger cars was incredibly quick and painless.




> What we need is another Henry Ford to come out with a vehicle that can be mass produced and be affordable for the average person (I am pretty sure 60,000 - 120,000 is not an affordable vehicle to the average person).



Extracting oil is nothing compared to raping the earth for Lithium.

----------


## Seth1968

> Extracting oil is nothing compared to raping the earth for Lithium.



Shh.

----------


## ercchry

What happened with Tesla’s battery swapping stations?

----------


## ExtraSlow

I'd love an electric car. And I totally believe they are going to dominate the market within my lifetime. Aside from the battery they could be very cheap to produce, easy to maintain, and mindless to run. 

Battery tech will improve, and that absolutely will drive extremely fast adoption.

----------


## zhao

> What happened with Tesla’s battery swapping stations?



I dunno but I'd imagine there'd be good black market money in exchanging those with a dummy battery and shipping the batteries to a shady country like China.

Fast and furious 15 can open with them hijacking a tesla semi with trailer battery packs

----------


## rage2

Electrical storage (batteries) is the bottleneck today. Everything else is good to go to push EV's forward as an ICE replacement. 2 things holding us back with batteries today, first is the cost. It's impossible to compete with say a $20k econo car because the battery is so damn expensive. In a typical econo car, the drivetrain is pegged at an average manufacturing cost of $4000 (engine, transmission, diff, etc). At the rate of progress for battery pricing, it's expected to hit $100/kWh by 2030, so at a $4000 budget for just the battery, that outfits an econocar with 40kWh of capacity, or 50% short of the capacity of a Chevy Bolt at 60kWh. Works out to around 200km of range. That's roughly our inflection point for when EV's become viable for the true mass market if we stuck with our current battery chemistry.

The second bottleneck is sustainability. We need a shit ton of lithium, cobalt and nickel, and what people are missing today is that lithium ion batteries aren't really recyclable from an economics standpoint. This encourages further replacement production down the line, or government subsidized recycling programs specific to EV batteries.

Refueling is not as big of a problem today for 90% of the driving, as usage pattern has completely changed with EV's. You charge everyday at home like a cell phone, so you always leave full. Road trips is problematic, but advancements are being made even with existing battery technology to cut down recharging times.

The first 2 issues are pretty big show stoppers for mass adoption, and there isn't a electrical energy storage technology on the horizon that will solve either quickly.

----------


## Xtrema

> What happened with Tesla’s battery swapping stations?



ownership issue.

Consider the battery is worth $20K, do you want something that had been abused to be swapped into your car?

I think battery swapping is fine if Tesla remove the cost of battery out of the cars and do it as a subscription service and includes towing/roadside assistance. So if you got a bad copy, you will just get towed and get another battery swapped in.

But of course it probably make little to no financial sense for Tesla to offer this, since they will holding on to all the risk and can't charge too much for it before it becoming costlier than fossil fuel.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Electrical storage (batteries) is the bottleneck today. Everything else is good to go to push EV's forward as an ICE replacement. 2 things holding us back with batteries today, first is the cost. It's impossible to compete with say a $20k econo car because the battery is so damn expensive. In a typical econo car, the drivetrain is pegged at an average manufacturing cost of $4000 (engine, transmission, diff, etc). At the rate of progress for battery pricing, it's expected to hit $100/kWh by 2030, so at a $4000 budget for just the battery, that outfits an econocar with 40kWh of capacity, or 50% short of the capacity of a Chevy Bolt at 60kWh. Works out to around 200km of range. That's roughly our inflection point for when EV's become viable for the true mass market if we stuck with our current battery chemistry.
> 
> The second bottleneck is sustainability. We need a shit ton of lithium, cobalt and nickel, and what people are missing today is that lithium ion batteries aren't really recyclable from an economics standpoint. This encourages further replacement production down the line, or government subsidized recycling programs specific to EV batteries.
> 
> Refueling is not as big of a problem today for 90% of the driving, as usage pattern has completely changed with EV's. You charge everyday at home like a cell phone, so you always leave full. Road trips is problematic, but advancements are being made even with existing battery technology to cut down recharging times.
> 
> The first 2 issues are pretty big show stoppers for mass adoption, and there isn't a electrical energy storage technology on the horizon that will solve either quickly.



Uh... third issue, no electrical grid is remotely able to hand mass EV adoption?

----------


## ercchry

> Uh... third issue, no electrical grid is remotely able to hand mass EV adoption?



Solar... they already have a residential product

----------


## rage2

> Uh... third issue, no electrical grid is remotely able to hand mass EV adoption?



Disagree here. The majority of the charging in the 90% use case can be done during off peak hours. Simply implementing a different cost structure for electricity based on peak/off peak will socially engineer people to change how they charge their vehicles.

----------


## Xtrema

> Uh... third issue, no electrical grid is remotely able to hand mass EV adoption?



https://www.aeso.ca/downloads/AESO_2...bookmarked.pdf




> By 2022 under the scenarios, the total number of plug-in electric vehicles on the road in
> Alberta ranged from 145,000 to 217,000, representing five per cent and seven per cent of
> total non-commercial vehicles on Alberta roads for 2022. The annual energy consumption
> from EV/PHEV for the 2022 scenarios ranged from 200 GWh to 400 GWh annually,
> representing 0.2 to 0.3 per cent of total forecast AIL energy consumption for that year.
> 
> Under the scenarios considered, by 2032, the total number of plug-in electric vehicles on
> the road increases to between 800,000 to 1,200,000, representing 23 to 34 per cent of total
> vehicles on Alberta roads. The annual energy consumption for the 2032 scenario ranges from
> ...



TLDR 2012 AESO study say by 2032 we will have 30% adoption rate in Alberta and will consume 2000Gwh annually by 800,000 cars or 2.5kwh/year per car. Here alone you already know whoever at AESO fucked up writing this report.

If we use 400km/week, 52 weeks and 5km/kwh, each Tesla will actually consume 4Gwh annually. 800,000 of these, it should be 3.2M Gwh per year, not 2000. That's 1600x more than what's expected in that report. If that 2000Gwh is 1.6%, 3.2M Gwh will be ~30% of what's planned by 2032.

So my math is in line of a recent study from AESO that isn't published.

What does this mean?

- We ended coal early, so there is no cheap electricity to tie us over until green energy is cheaper.
- We are about to add 30% load to the grid that wasn't here today.
- We are replacing cheap coal to expensive green energy. (we are no where near the equator, solar will work but not at the cheap rate that all the rosy report say)

So end of the day, we really need to jump on solar/wind/storage if we think EV is the future. And that's why the investment community give Tesla a pass on all the delays and screw ups. Because they could be a monopoly player for quite some time if political will is steering us that way.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Disagree here. The majority of the charging in the 90% use case can be done during off peak hours. Simply implementing a different cost structure for electricity based on peak/off peak will socially engineer people to change how they charge their vehicles.



https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/1...attery-charge/

http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...ak-power-usage

http://ask.epcor.ca/?requestType=Nor...ntial+customer

I never said anything about generation. I said the grid, ie distribution. As a rural customer now who had some interesting conversations with Fortis, and while this information is hard to come by in an easily readable format, I do not think infrastructure would be well equipped to handle doubling typical usage rates among Albertans. You are more than welcome to provide your thoughts on how this would be possible. I'm no electrician, but there is a finite amount of juice you can squeeze through a certain power line.

Peak hours are 5pm to 7pm roughly. Most people get home at that time after work. I would say a majority of working people are out the door before 8am. So you have a window of 12 hours of offpeak.

The best way to find this info is actually through the days talking about Earth Hour.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/technol...605/story.html

As you can see, the average power usage doesn't drop off that dramatically between peak and after hours. I would argue that up until at least 10pm, if not midnight, power usage is pretty constant




> Calgary’s average daily peak demand is just over 1,300 megawatts, while an average Saturday night is about 1,110 MW.






> Edmonton’s power use dropped slightly from 8:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. Saturday night — from 950.10 megawatts the same time last week to 921.37 megawatts.



Per capita, 932,000 people in Edmonton, 1,239,000 for Calgary. Lets say 70% of those people (age 15 to 64 according to this in 2016, if we bump that up to 18 to 67 pretty sure 70% is close enough).

https://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopme.../demographics/

70% of those people in total drive (roughly)
http://calgaryherald.com/news/traffi...to-work-census

So, 1.239 mil x 70% x 70% = 600,000 people driving. Now, to make it fair and line up with census numbers, we'll cut it in half to the 300,000 people that answered the question.

Benefit of the doubt again, everyone has 220/240 single phase chargers for their Teslas.

So you have an off peak window from 10pm until about 6am if charging as described. All charging is done at home as companies will not allow people to charge their cars without paying once it becomes mainstream. Certainly will be convenient to pay for that privilege, but you are the one talking about social engineering and off peak charging.

Average Canadian drives 20k kms per year. At 265mile range for 85kwh battery (going with that instead of 300 mile as Alberta is cold 6 months of the year), 424km. 47 "plug ins" required. 54km per day average, 7.85 days, but you're screwed on that .85 day, so it lasts 7 days per charge.

Tesla says 240v charging = 31 miles of range for an hour of charging. Gets us pretty close to the daily used, not bad! But for the sake of people wanting a full charge at all times, 2 hours of charging.

2 hours of charging is 10kwh. So 5kw for two hours. Times 75,000 cars charging at any given time (300k cars, split between needing two hours of charging for an 8 hour period 10pm until 6am). 75,000 x 5kw/h = 375,000kwh. 375Mwh of energy.

So you would add 30-40% at any point in time, putting us well past "peak" power usage of the cities in this case.

You know, for a while there I was on your side while crunching these numbers, but base demand offpeak would now be above current peak.

Of course, this is with TONS of assumptions. And the adoption will be gradual, hopefully power being ran to new communities will take this into account, but old communities might be more hard hit. And where is that money going to come from, especially if such a switch did occur, lots of job loss would have ensued over the years due to O&G jobs disappearing. So to get the necessary distribution infrastructure into old communities, tearing up buried power lines, would be $$$$$$ with possibly no dollars to support.

----------


## Xtrema

> You know, for a while there I was on your side while crunching these numbers, but base demand offpeak would now be above current peak.



Lots of math, same conclusion.

You better hope those solar windows are cheap.  :Big Grin: 

There is no way we can go forward without coal or nuclear in our electrified future.

----------


## Gestalt

> Uh... third issue, no electrical grid is remotely able to hand mass EV adoption?



Very easy doable today. Solar roof 10kw for most people. Done.

----------


## benyl

> Very easy doable today. Solar roof 10kw for most people. Done.



Who is going to pay for it?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Very easy doable today. Solar roof 10kw for most people. Done.



Hitting the right angle and direction, you will probably get 20kwh/day in summer and 1kwh/day in winter. Most outfit will quote you 6000kwh/year but never show that 80% of that is in summer months.

So it helps in summer but doesn't offset peak load in winter. Especially consider EV uses 1.5x to 2x energy in winter as well.

That roof is $40K in 2017 and need about 1000sqft of roof. That is hard to come by in Calgary other than mansions over $1M. Then you probably need 20-30kwh Powerwall as well to capture what isn't used, which will cost another $15K or so.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Lots of math, same conclusion.
> 
> You better hope those solar windows are cheap.



Haha, no doubt, I actually started typing that before you posted, you beat me to it.

----------


## dj_patm

> Hitting the right angle and direction, you will probably get 20kwh/day in summer and 1kwh/day in winter. Most outfit will quote you 6000kwh/year but never show that 80% of that is in summer months.
> 
> So it helps in summer but doesn't offset peak load in winter. Especially consider EV uses 1.5x to 2x energy in winter as well.
> 
> That roof is $40K in 2017 and need about 1000sqft of roof. That is hard to come by in Calgary other than mansions over $1M. Then you probably need 20-30kwh Powerwall as well to capture what isn't used, which will cost another $15K or so.



But Elon Musk said that the solor roof will mean I have free energy forever

----------


## Gestalt

> Hitting the right angle and direction, you will probably get 20kwh/day in summer and 1kwh/day in winter. Most outfit will quote you 6000kwh/year but never show that 80% of that is in summer months.
> 
> So it helps in summer but doesn't offset peak load in winter. Especially consider EV uses 1.5x to 2x energy in winter as well.
> 
> That roof is $40K in 2017 and need about 1000sqft of roof. That is hard to come by in Calgary other than mansions over $1M. Then you probably need 20-30kwh Powerwall as well to capture what isn't used, which will cost another $15K or so.



Solar newbie, let me suggest a bit of research. Throug January calgary enjoys an average of 3 full sun hours a day, with a fixed south facing vertical panel a 10kw system would do 30kwh a day as an average. Our's are fixed at 60 degrees so we get slightly better out of our panels in the winter I am jsut giving you government data so you don;t go off saying Im stupid. Thats the facts.

In summer, you could get 50 kwh. or could achieve upto 65 kwh in july peak if you had the means to lay the panels flatter. If you had a 2 axis tracker, you could increase daily ouptut as much as 50%. realistic numbers would be 40kwh in january as average, and 95kwh in july. Trackers technology is cheap, about $250 in electtronics, the rest is your mounts and linear actuaters this is what we will add next since im handy with a welder.

30kwh is enough to fully charge your leaf from empty every day, or your bolt every other day all on your own without the grid.

Solar on houses will be like shingles, or hardwood, you jsut add it to the bill, and it's ends up $100 a month on your mortgage. It's already available from many builders.

its the biggest certaintly and no brainer of our lifetimes.

----------


## Xtrema

> Solar newbie, let me suggest a bit of research. Throug January calgary enjoys an average of 3 full sun hours a day, with a fixed south facing vertical panel a 10kw system would do 30kwh a day as an average. Our's are fixed at 60 degrees so we get slightly better out of our panels in the winter I am jsut giving you government data so you don;t go off saying Im stupid. Thats the facts.



So this must be industrial then, able to mount 1000sqft of panels with adjusting angles or even vertical.

If I take my home, I only have about 600sqft of roof that's south facing, so that will mean I'll have a 6kwh system and generates around 6500kwh /year. Say it's 10c/kwh, that's $650/year. ROI is about 20 years if nothing breaks. But if it goes to 20c, ROI will be 10 years.

That said, if they ever perfect that solar window tech, I'm slapping that on all windows that's south facing.

----------


## SkiBum5.0

> Welcome back. 
> 
> Gotta give credit where credit is due, Elon Musk is a master at creating hype and inflating stock prices, which is necessary to get them to their next round of fund raising. If it was anyone else, the ship would've sank long ago.



Finally someone said it - Elon is the modern day Hennessey. Funding current production with future orders. He doesn't even have to conceal it anymore...everyone finds out he's way behind sales and production numbers - magically, the fastest roadster ever and a sweet semi come out of nowhere. All the hipster, Americano-drinking super twats at Gizmodo call Elon the second coming of Hnery Ford

----------


## Gestalt

> So this must be industrial then, able to mount 1000sqft of panels with adjusting angles or even vertical.
> 
> If I take my home, I only have about 600sqft of roof that's south facing, so that will mean I'll have a 6kwh system and generates around 6500kwh /year. Say it's 10c/kwh, that's $650/year. ROI is about 20 years if nothing breaks. But if it goes to 20c, ROI will be 10 years.
> 
> That said, if they ever perfect that solar window tech, I'm slapping that on all windows that's south facing.



You are confusing kw and kwh. Assuming your 6kw is right (it's not but well use it). That would be 18kwh in january and 30kwh in july.

Current market cheap panels like the Canadian solar 330w is 21 square feet. You can put almost 10kw on your south facing 600 foot roof.

And thats only 17.5% efficient. We can already do mid 20s residential but they are a bit pricey. In case you need help with math that will in a year or two increase your roof feom 9500 wats to 14000. 

I wont hold my breath on thw Windows the efficiency is terrible and costs high.

----------


## Gestalt

> Finally someone said it - Elon is the modern day Hennessey. Funding current production with future orders. He doesn't even have to conceal it anymore...everyone finds out he's way behind sales and production numbers - magically, the fastest roadster ever and a sweet semi come out of nowhere. All the hipster, Americano-drinking super twats at Gizmodo call Elon the second coming of Hnery Ford



Henessy sold 75000 cars a year revolutionized an industry, has a market value greater then gm, and firced every car maker on earth to plan electric for their future? He built a rocket booster that can launch and land at sea, a hyperloop, and boring a tunnel under L.A. to aleviate traffic, and built the worlds biggest battery on a bet for Australia?

Didnt think so otherwise i woukd have hear of him.

----------


## Xtrema

> You are confusing kw and kwh. Assuming your 6kw is right (it's not but well use it). That would be 18kwh in january and 30kwh in july.
> 
> Current market cheap panels like the Canadian solar 330w is 21 square feet. You can put almost 10kw on your south facing 600 foot roof.
> 
> And thats only 17.5% efficient. We can already do mid 20s residential but they are a bit pricey. In case you need help with math that will in a year or two increase your roof feom 9500 wats to 14000. 
> 
> I wont hold my breath on thw Windows the efficiency is terrible and costs high.



Sounds like numbers is a lot better than last few years. I assume you are doing a lot of residential due to 30% government rebate?

----------


## Gestalt

Looks like the Tesla semi is racking in the pre orders with Pepsi and Budweiser joining in. What is that so far 500+ and its years away?

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Looks like the Tesla semi is racking in the pre orders with Pepsi and Budweiser joining in. What is that so far 500+ and its years away?



From jalopnik.com "So, one percent of Pepsi’s entire fleet of trucks might be electric if and when the Tesla semi finally rolls off the production line, which is currently slated for 2019. We’ll see."

I'm impressed how Elon is able to get everyone focused on the number of preorders. The guy is truly a master. Who needs to sell vehicles, just market them!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Welcome back. 
> 
> Gotta give credit where credit is due, Elon Musk is a master at creating hype and inflating stock prices, which is necessary to get them to their next round of fund raising. If it was anyone else, the ship would've sank long ago.



That, is something that I don't think anyone here detracting has ever disagreed with. He's a master of misdirection and creating positive perceptions, the guy is basically the David Blaine of finance and I love that people are making money during the ride.

To me that is both the biggest factor in the success and the thing that will ultimately cause a massive collapse. If he does actually manage to keep the hype train rolling till the business becomes viable/sustainable it'll be a far more legendary accomplishment than the vehicle itself.

----------


## suntan

> I think 2018 is going to be the year Tesla finally fails. They are running out of cash fast, stock predictions are for a 40 percent slide, and even with semi and roadster down payments, it won't be enough to keep them floating.
> 
> https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/tesla...-out-of-money/
> 
> They might be able to get a government bail out, but then again given just how bad Elon is with money, they might decide to let it sink. 
> 
> GM might vacuum up some of the bits



Dude, they have like a 1000 semi preorders.

That's like a trillion dollars right there.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Government bailout? Maybe from California. 

Trump sure as hell isnt going to do anything for musk after musk pissed in his cornflakes by quitting his business council. Would be funny if instead government financed ford buying up the company at pennies on the dollar, I hope the only people who come out with their shirts from Tesla are the debt holders.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Chandler_Racing

Working on a thesis to short Tesla in 2018 or end of 2017 as people take profit.

Am I going to lose my lunch betting against the trend in December?

----------


## rage2

> Working on a thesis to short Tesla in 2018 or end of 2017 as people take profit.
> 
> Am I going to lose my lunch betting against the trend in December?



Yes. Go back a couple pages, I said it was too soon last month, and predicted that they would recover. It's closed higher today than right before the dismal Q3 results.

----------


## Chandler_Racing

Maybe it's the Accountant in me and I think to one dimensional but burning through $600m of cash in a quarter is a problem.

Constantly missing production / sales targets is a problem.

Having no focus (let's build solar panels, lets go to Mars, Lets build cheaper cars, Lets build cheaper semi's) is a problem.

Having a levered balance sheet is a problem.

Having no damn earnings is a big problem.

----------


## Gestalt

> Maybe it's the Accountant in me and I think to one dimensional but burning through $600m of cash in a quarter is a problem.
> 
> Constantly missing production / sales targets is a problem.
> 
> Having no focus (let's build solar panels, lets go to Mars, Lets build cheaper cars, Lets build cheaper semi's) is a problem.
> 
> Having a levered balance sheet is a problem.
> 
> Having no damn earnings is a big problem.



Are you sure?

Investors in Tesla knkw its a speculative investment in the future tbat was and is expected to fail. Teslas goal is cbange the world and bring in ghe electric era. Not sell amercian made care to the world.

Musk has no care abiut stock price. Unlike wallstreet making bad decisions to maximise return, teslas only goal is to make a new and better prodcut and change the world. If its profitable, or stock price goes up, hurray. You guys looking at it as a traditional stock should not be buying it and will not understand its run up. And will misatribute any downfall.

----------


## Xtrema

> Maybe it's the Accountant in me and I think to one dimensional but burning through $600m of cash in a quarter is a problem.
> 
> Constantly missing production / sales targets is a problem.
> 
> Having no focus (let's build solar panels, lets go to Mars, Lets build cheaper cars, Lets build cheaper semi's) is a problem.
> 
> Having a levered balance sheet is a problem.
> 
> Having no damn earnings is a big problem.



The fact bitcoin is over $20K is a reason why Tesla will continue to exist.

It's the new economy, you don't have to deliver, people just have to think you will at some point in the future. It's how Bezo is worth $100B.

----------


## benyl

Half or more of the internet runs on AWS.

----------


## Gestalt

> The fact bitcoin is over $20K is a reason why Tesla will continue to exist.
> 
> It's the new economy, you don't have to deliver, people just have to think you will at some point in the future. It's how Bezo is worth $100B.



Bitcoin is going to $200k. Its how it works as mining difficulty and hash rates increase exponntelly

----------


## rage2

> Half or more of the internet runs on AWS.



Nobody knows that though. They just think amazon makes all the money selling books and crap from China.  :ROFL!: 

The reason Netflix has been able to scale so quickly and reliably is all because of Amazon, and that’s really just the high level stuff that we see. Pretty amazing shit that I’ve seen, especially medical research, that’s only possible because of Amazon.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Musk has no care abiut stock price.



Is it just me, or is this the new dumbest thing you've said in awhile?

----------


## rage2

> Is it just me, or is this the new dumbest thing you've said in awhile?



I don't even bother anymore, but for those wondering, without a pumped up stock price, stock dilution would be even more ugly every round of capital raise that Tesla has done (with the exception of the last junk bond round). I don't think they can pull off another round of bonds, because it's traded underwater since day 1.

----------


## Xtrema

> Half or more of the internet runs on AWS.



Nobody thought they will hit that gold mine in 1994 when Bezo's mission is to sell books.

And here we are 22 years later and they strike gold with AWS.

Tesla if they don't go under, potentially won't be doing whatever they are doing today.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> I don't even bother anymore, but for those wondering, without a pumped up stock price, stock dilution would be even more ugly every round of capital raise that Tesla has done (with the exception of the last junk bond round). I don't think they can pull off another round of bonds, because it's traded underwater since day 1.



Most people, when repeatedly shown that nearly everything that pukes out of their fingers is incorrect or sometimes completely inconsistent with other versions of the same puke, stop after awhile.

hashtagtroll

At least there's some mild entertainment value in the worthlessness of it all.  :crazy nut:

----------


## ickyflex

> Looks like the Tesla semi is racking in the pre orders with Pepsi and Budweiser joining in. What is that so far 500+ and its years away?



Holy shit 100 out of a 28,000 fleet. Fucking killing it.

----------


## rage2

> Nobody thought they will hit that gold mine in 1994 when Bezo's mission is to sell books.
> 
> And here we are 22 years later and they strike gold with AWS.
> 
> Tesla if they don't go under, potentially won't be doing whatever they are doing today.



Yea, AWS was really just a project to get their infrastructure and code cleaner, more user friendly for vendors, and more scalable. They realized that others can use their infrastructure to build their own Amazon like products and spun it off as a small service, which ended up growing into their biggest money maker. 

Tesla inherently doesn't have anything today that others can leverage, or anything that they can productize. There's nothing unique about their drivetrain, and they run into the same bottlenecks as every other company looking to build EVs, big or small, and that's cost/performance of energy storage. But they did merge with Solarcity, so potentially if they come up with something that nobody else can do on their own there, we could see a spin off. They are actively researching new energy storage technologies so it could happen.

----------


## Gestalt

> Is it just me, or is this the new dumbest thing you've said in awhile?




Troll. a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.

All you do is troll here. Iv yet to see you add content.

Tesla doenst care about stock price, not in the traditional sacrifice product for gains that made walstreet as bad as it is today 

https://moneymorning.com/2016/06/29/...-and-thats-ok/

----------


## killramos

> Yea, AWS was really just a project to get their infrastructure and code cleaner, more user friendly for vendors, and more scalable. They realized that others can use their infrastructure to build their own Amazon like products and spun it off as a small service, which ended up growing into their biggest money maker. 
> 
> Tesla inherently doesn't have anything today that others can leverage, or anything that they can productize. There's nothing unique about their drivetrain, and they run into the same bottlenecks as every other company looking to build EVs, big or small, and that's cost/performance of energy storage. But they did merge with Solarcity, so potentially if they come up with something that nobody else can do on their own there, we could see a spin off. They are actively researching new energy storage technologies so it could happen.



The only thing I can see working is if they can actually get the gigafactory to scale properly, and sell batteries to everyone else. But I think battery issues are bigger than that as you have said, I think they know this and as such are avoiding overinvesting in current battery technology that they know needs to change for future viability. Maybe come up with something clever and sell PV roof panels or something for cars. Actually, the why fuck don’t Tesla’s have PV roofs? Speaks volumes about PV feasibility if you ask me. 

One thing that is for sure. They need to stop making their own cars.

Best case scenario is a Ford Focus with a “Tesla Inside” sticker.

----------


## Gestalt

> The only thing I can see working is if they can actually get the gigafactory to scale properly, and sell batteries to everyone else. But I think battery issues are bigger than that as you have said, I think they know this and as such are avoiding overinvesting in current battery technology that they know needs to change for future viability. Maybe come up with something clever and sell PV roof panels or something for cars. Actually, the why fuck don’t Tesla’s have PV roofs? Speaks volumes about PV feasibility if you ask me. 
> 
> One thing that is for sure. They need to stop making their own cars.
> 
> Best case scenario is a Ford Focus with a “Tesla Inside” sticker.



The roof area is insignificant to the cars power demands.

----------


## benyl

> One thing that is for sure. They need to stop making their own cars.



Sounds like Blackberry...

----------


## rage2

> Sounds like Blackberry...



Not really, Blackberry was profitable at some points haha.

----------


## ercchry

The beginning of the end is when they outsourced hardware... the quality plummeted and it actually got me to buy an iPhone  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

ontario just anounce a $75,000 electric big rig incentive. and dirty alberta still doesnt have one for cars.

----------


## blownz

> ontario just anounce a $75,000 electric big rig incentive. and dirty alberta still doesnt have one for cars.



Actually surprising considering the current party we have running things. Although if/when they finally introduce something like that, it will probably only be for low income earners and since they can't afford electric cars it will just be a bust. lol

----------


## rage2

> ontario just anounce a $75,000 electric big rig incentive. and dirty alberta still doesnt have one for cars.






> Actually surprising considering the current party we have running things. Although if/when they finally introduce something like that, it will probably only be for low income earners and since they can't afford electric cars it will just be a bust. lol



Not really an incentive like the current EV ones, it's helping pay 60% of difference of price to an equivalent diesel big rig up to $75k. Let's say a diesel big rig costs $200k. To get the $75k rebate, an equivalent EV big rig has to be priced at $325k (or $125k higher), in which case you'll get a $75k (60% of 125k) rebate, making the buyer still $50k poorer than buying the diesel version (fuel savings notwithstanding).

Really silly, it's going to do is encourage EV big rig manufacturers to pump up their prices in Ontario because they can.

----------


## Gestalt

Of course a better truck costs more. But instead of maying $150k more now its reimbuersed partially.

----------


## dirtsniffer

please explain how an imaginary truck is better.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> please explain how an imaginary truck is better.



Please don't encourage the regurgitation of more nonsensical ramblings.

----------


## benyl

Here's another truck company. At least you can test drive one right now. It isn't vapourware.



http://www.thortrucks.com/

----------


## Gestalt

> please explain how an imaginary truck is better.



It's not imaginary. Pay attention. Lots of videos of it driving around.

- - - Updated - - -




> Please don't encourage the regurgitation of more nonsensical ramblings.



More troll.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Not exactly a Tesla topic but I'm putting it here because it's relevant to the same audience. 

Are we in the midst of a battery revolution? Or is one just around the corner? 

Battery technology is one of the main driving forces for both range and cost of electric cars as well as a key enabler of various green energy generation projects. 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business...logy-1.4455998

Waterloo researchers say they could triple energy density in batteries. 
https://uwaterloo.ca/news/news/batte...ctric-vehicles


I'm really excited about batteries because in my mind this could transform our lives more than anything else.

----------


## suntan

I've seen so many lithium energy density breakthroughs over the years. Absolutely zero of them have come to fruition.

Problem is lithium is one hell of a bitch metal to keep stable. Not only can it explode and start on fire, it can physically expand if you stuff it too full of electrons. It's that last problem that people have been working on for, oh, since batteries were discovered.

----------


## zhao

Well, people are trying to focus on zinc battery technology, which could make lithium batteries obsolete (stability/cost/environment would be potential advantages there), but its hard to gauge where that is at or going as every so often it pops up in the news saying its 'close'.


Also, judging by telsa's stock, any day now tesla should be announcing they are starting R&D on warp drive technology and should be accepting pre-orders on the Enterprise.

----------


## Gestalt

Teslas first real test in asutralia passed got power back up on 150 miliseconds.

----------


## ExtraSlow

The stock will go to $99,999 per share!

----------


## Gestalt

> The stock will go to $99,999 per share!



i hope not, i dont have enough yet. between this and the hole crypto thing, I'll be retired by 30

----------


## rage2

> Model 3 sales numbers out today.
> 
> Initial target for Q3 (July-Sep) - 1628
> 
> Q3 hit the now famous 220 (30, 75, 115)
> 
> Q4 so far at 490 (145, 345)
> 
> Total sales to date - 710.
> ...



Numbers are out today. 1550 for Q4, so roughly 1060 for December.

Tesla claims that they're actually churning out 1000 a week now (based on last week of Dec. production rate) and have adjusted their production ramp further into the future to 2500/week at the end of Q1 and 5000/week at the end of Q2.

----------


## zhao

snooze. Telsa is just loves taking the most hypothetically possible situation, doubling that, and then saying that's what they're doing today... and just wait for the proof tomorrow! I'd love to see how 1060 in december turns in to 1000/week currently on jan 3rd lol.

and 2500/week by end of Q1..... we'll believe that when we see it i think.

----------


## Gestalt

Tesla model s is the number one selling car in Norway and now 52% of all cars in Norway are electric or hybrid thanks to resla.

----------


## zhao

> Tesla model s is the number one selling car in Norway and now 52% of all cars in Norway are electric or hybrid thanks to resla.



no its not. It's #7 actually. It was first only in December.

The best selling car in norway is still the golf.

----------


## rage2

Also high in December because the incentives ended Dec. 31st. Exact same thing happened in Hong Kong. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...crapped-2017-7

----------


## Gestalt

It was a rpoposed tax on heavy and luxury electrics, and i read it hasnt passed yet.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys remind me of that music cd accountant comercial. The internet is a fad  :ROFL!:

----------


## dirtsniffer

Wow you mean of the government gives a company a bunch of money to sell their products for a loss people will be more likely to buy them? No fucking way.

----------


## rage2

> You guys remind me of that music cd accountant comercial. The internet is a fad



Nobody here says EV aren't the future to get us off fossil fuels. It's just that the market doesn't see it that way yet, and need incentives to move forward. Tesla isn't a bad car, it's just that the company isn't all it's cracked up to be from a financials perspective. Please stop confusing two separate issues.

----------


## Gestalt

> Wow you mean of the government gives a company a bunch of money to sell their products for a loss people will be more likely to buy them? No fucking way.



Are you also cryibg about all the subsidy past and preasant for oil and gas? Auto makers?

- - - Updated - - -




> Nobody here says EV aren't the future to get us off fossil fuels. It's just that the market doesn't see it that way yet, and need incentives to move forward. Tesla isn't a bad car, it's just that the company isn't all it's cracked up to be from a financials perspective. Please stop confusing two separate issues.



I see lots of people saying electric isnt viable. And tesla doesnt care about being viable, hes all about growing the industry for everyone.

----------


## rage2

> I see lots of people saying electric isnt viable. And tesla doesnt care about being viable, hes all about growing the industry for everyone.



For the average consumer, it's not viable today. That's why government incentives are needed to make it compete against traditional ICE vehicles. They're not wrong.

----------


## Gestalt

> For the average consumer, it's not viable today. That's why government incentives are needed to make it compete against traditional ICE vehicles. They're not wrong.



Need more then incentive. We need inventory. Besides tesla theres maybe 3 family tyoe electric cars total on dealer lots in the hole city next to a million ice. Its perfect for 95% of people and 99% if they are a 2 car family.

What we also need now is legislation that something like 20% of new car sales must be electric.

----------


## benyl

> I see lots of people saying electric isnt viable. And tesla doesnt care about being viable, hes all about growing the industry for everyone.



Umm, I don't see you driving a Model S P100D right now. Tesla's are for the rich. They are $200K. I rather a used GT3 RS or half a dozen cheaper cars (yes 6 cars in my possession) for the same price.

$55K for the Bolt is insane money for what it is. *I would get one*, if you could get one in Alberta for a reasonble $30-$40K.

----------


## blownz

I really want to buy a Tesla. I am just waiting for the Federal and Provincial governments to provide some heavy incentives so the cars only cost ~$80K instead of over $100K, and for the cities to build some more free gas - I mean charging stations so I can live off the taxpayers too poor to afford a new car...




> What we also need now is legislation that something like 20% of new car sales must be electric.



How does that help when current electric cars are too expensive for most people?






> thanks to resla.



Also, who has an urge to watch Scooby Doo?  :Smilie:

----------


## ickyflex

> Need more then incentive. We need inventory. Besides tesla theres maybe 3 family tyoe electric cars total on dealer lots in the hole city next to a million ice. Its perfect for 95% of people and 99% if they are a 2 car family.
> 
> What we also need now is legislation that something like 20% of new car sales must be electric.



lol with what money incentive. The carbon tax? lawl

----------


## Xtrema

> Need more then incentive. We need inventory. Besides tesla theres maybe 3 family tyoe electric cars total on dealer lots in the hole city next to a million ice. Its perfect for 95% of people and 99% if they are a 2 car family.
> 
> What we also need now is legislation that something like 20% of new car sales must be electric.



Ontario threw $14K at them and sales of EV barely break 1% in 2017.

Alberta dealers can't get them because of 1) demand out east and 2) no demand here as there is no incentive to do so.

At this point a Chevy Bolt has the same functionality and prestige of Corolla iM but 2x the cost. And that's the best common man EV right now. Nobody will buy that unless it's under closer to $30K than $50K. NDP should match BC on rebates with all the carbon tax they have collected this year if they are serious about this.

Also Tesla other than Model 3 are readily available. Order a S and a X, you can have one in less than 4 weeks.

And we are not California, we have no teeth in mandating EV sales. All it means is business will leave this country all together and reduce our choice and increase prices.

I already mapped out that EV (2 cars) and PHEV (1 car) will work for me. The lowest Model S 75D runs for $1500/mth if you lease (with government incentive of $5K). There are a lot of better ICE cars that has no range limitation and better build quality for that kind of coin.

And even the dictatorship of China only forcing 12% EV sales for 2020. But that said, since their system is cap and trade, EV makers like Tesla and BYD will benefit from ICE maker's inability to ramp up and sell them credits. I think as legislation goes, that's a pretty even handed approach and it whip companies that have no EV plan to speed up development (like Honda).

----------


## rage2

> Need more then incentive. We need inventory. Besides tesla theres maybe 3 family tyoe electric cars total on dealer lots in the hole city next to a million ice. Its perfect for 95% of people and 99% if they are a 2 car family.
> 
> What we also need now is legislation that something like 20% of new car sales must be electric.



When the day comes where electric vehicles are comparable in costs at entry level pricing, that's when you'll see large investment in it, and large number of choices for EVs. Today, you need incentives to make a sale, all these incentives are time/quantity limited, so it would be a financial mistake to invest heavily in EV production as there is a finite amount of incentives to meet the necessary sales. That's not stopping car manufacturers (to a degree), as they start to move towards 2020 introduction of mid to high priced vehicles, where it's expected the costs of batteries + drivetrains to be closer to ICE, which makes it financially viable.

See my post here: https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/373...99#post4698499

----------


## flipstah

Would it be wise if Tesla just dropped making cars and focused on the supercharger delivery technology?

That way, we won't have a BetaMax vs. VHS battle.

----------


## rage2

> Would it be wise if Tesla just dropped making cars and focused on the supercharger delivery technology?
> 
> That way, we won't have a BetaMax vs. VHS battle.



Already have that. Tesla Supercharger, CHAdeMO, SAE CCS... the list just keeps growing. Porsche has their new 800V charger coming out for the Mission E that's even faster although I believe it's going to be under the SAE CCS standard.

----------


## Xtrema

> Would it be wise if Tesla just dropped making cars and focused on the supercharger delivery technology?
> 
> That way, we won't have a BetaMax vs. VHS battle.




We ended up with Lightling vs USB and the world is ok with it.

I don't see why history won't repeat itself here.

It's the 3 different standards backed for Japan/China/US+EU that will have to fight it out as defacto standard. I think Japanese's CHAdeMO will lose out due to smallest car market of the 3 regions.

And I still believe that there is a limit to how fast battery can charge before you start to see accelerated degradation. The only way I can see shorter charge time is to split the pack in 2 and bring in another plug to parallel charge them. Then you could easily cut that 40min to 20min.

Tesla supercharger generates a lot of heat on the pack to vent. I can't see them ramping up easily. Elon has teased about Supercharger v3 that supposed to 3x the currer 120kw max but no solid info yet.

----------


## rage2

> And I still believe that there is a limit to how fast battery can charge before you start to see accelerated degradation. The only way I can see shorter charge time is to split the pack in 2 and bring in another plug to parallel charge them. Then you could easily cut that 40min to 20min.
> 
> Tesla supercharger generates a lot of heat on the pack to vent. I can't see them ramping up easily. Elon has teased about Supercharger v3 that supposed to 3x the currer 120kw max but no solid info yet.



That’s already happening. Tesla rate limits charging speeds after 200 or so fast charges to protect the battery from blowing up. 

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla...umber-charges/

No clue how Porsche is going to manage that with double the rate. We need a new electrical storage medium.

----------


## ExtraSlow

New compensation deal for elon.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenatio...hina-1.4498959

----------


## Xtrema

> new compensation deal for elon.
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenatio...hina-1.4498959



tldr




> if he ultimately succeeds in building the automaker into a $650 billion firm as envisioned  bigger than walmart or facebook  he will stand to take home $58 billion in stock, says the release.



Not sure how he can get there but somehow Amazon did it.

----------


## benyl

Stock is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. With TESLA hemorrhaging money, it could end up being worthless.

----------


## Xtrema

> Stock is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. With TESLA hemorrhaging money, it could end up being worthless.



https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/22/...tesla-model-s/




> "A Model S, especially with the performance upgrades, is one of the fastest, best-handling, best-braking sedans that you could buy in the world today. The acceleration times will beat any $350,000 European exotic," he said.
> 
> But he said Tesla is "perennially running out of cash" and added, "I don't see anything on the horizon that's gong to fix that, so those of you who are interested in collector cars, may I suggest buying a Tesla Model S while they're still available."

----------


## HiTempguy1

http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/314908

Wow, half range in an EV at -5*c. Wonder what it is like at -30*c?

Of course, I'd imagine most who have a tesla have heated parking but still.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Only poor people drive in cold weather.

----------


## Xtrema

> http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/314908
> 
> Wow, half range in an EV at -5*c. Wonder what it is like at -30*c?
> 
> Of course, I'd imagine most who have a tesla have heated parking but still.




This is basically proven by all EV owners. Range drops by 1/2 due to extra load on cabin heat and warming the batteries. Same for people in hot climate where some extra cooling is needed.

Some youtuber from Calgary actually left his 5 year old Nissan Leaf out over the Christmas without plugging in it. It depleted 75% just keeping the battery warm in -30c weather out on the street for just short of a week.

Using my commute as example, I would have used 2.4L of premium going to work in winter (12L/100km in city) and that's around $3 today. Same trip would have taken 4kwh in a Model S and double to 8kwh in winter (and that's a heavy foot, hypermilers can probably do it for 25% less), say it cost 12c/kwh (it doesn't), that's just short of $1.

EV mileage cost is still 1/3 of gasoline, even in winter.

Chances are if your owns an EV right now, you probably leave it in garage for charging. And you probably going it warm it up before you unplug it for max range. There is definitely more planning involved but as long as you get back home before battery is depleted, it's not a big deal.

Speaking of Tesla/Elon....

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/27/1...tagram-running

» Click image for larger version

----------


## rage2

Elon Musk is so good at “hey look over here” tactics.

----------


## RealJimmyJames

A true visionary you could say.

----------


## Maxt

> This is basically proven by all EV owners. Range drops by 1/2 due to extra load on cabin heat and warming the batteries. Same for people in hot climate where some extra cooling is needed.
> 
> Some youtuber from Calgary actually left his 5 year old Nissan Leaf out over the Christmas without plugging in it. It depleted 75% just keeping the battery warm in -30c weather out on the street for just short of a week.
> 
> Using my commute as example, I would have used 2.4L of premium going to work in winter (12L/100km in city) and that's around $3 today. Same trip would have taken 4kwh in a Model S and double to 8kwh in winter (and that's a heavy foot, hypermilers can probably do it for 25% less), say it cost 12c/kwh (it doesn't), that's just short of $1.
> 
> EV mileage cost is still 1/3 of gasoline, even in winter.
> 
> Chances are if your owns an EV right now, you probably leave it in garage for charging. And you probably going it warm it up before you unplug it for max range. There is definitely more planning involved but as long as you get back home before battery is depleted, it's not a big deal.
> ...



 Just think though of how many EV's are burning up energy just sitting around in our climate, definitely something that needs to be overcome from an emissions and practicality standpoint. Say you live in High River, park n rided for a week at the airport, it turns cold the day after you jetted off, when you landed, would you make it home?

----------


## Xtrema

> Just think though of how many EV's are burning up energy just sitting around in our climate, definitely something that needs to be overcome from an emissions and practicality standpoint. Say you live in High River, park n rided for a week at the airport, it turns cold the day after you jetted off, when you landed, would you make it home?



No. EV only works for 80%-90% of driving scenario. Unless there is a plug at the park and ride, week long EV parking probably not a good idea.

And that Leaf example I gave above, it's basically burned 20kwh to keep itself warm for about a week in -20 to -30c. That's about 3kwh/day.

If you use a block heater on ICE, you would have used up around ~7.2kwh per day minimum unless the parking facility cycle the circuits. Of course, if your ICE car can start after a week in -20c without block heater, good for you.  :Big Grin:

----------


## benyl

my ICE car doesn't have a block heater, does that count?

----------


## speedog

> No. EV only works for 80%-90% of driving scenario. Unless there is a plug at the park and ride, week long EV parking probably not a good idea.
> 
> And that Leaf example I gave above, it's basically burned 20kwh to keep itself warm for about a week in -20 to -30c. That's about 3kwh/day.
> 
> If you use a block heater on ICE, you would have used up around ~7.2kwh per day minimum unless the parking facility cycle the circuits. Of course, if you ICE car can start after a week in -20c without block heater, good for you.



There are ICE cars that can't start at -20C without being plugged in?

----------


## Xtrema

> There are ICE cars that can't start at -20C without being plugged in?



https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/406...t=block+heater

YMMV.




Leaf part starts at 9:50. I was wrong, it was out in the cold for 2 weeks, not 1. Enough to drain 10/12 bars, ~20kwh.

----------


## Maxt

All the GM vans and the sprinters I had, were dead in the water below -20C if not plugged in.. The best vehicles I've had for starting when cold, surprisingly are cummins diesels, cycle the key twice to get the grid heaters hot, and they'll go every time.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Elon Musk is so good at “hey look over here” tactics.



You do have to admit, the Falcon Heavy launch if going to be pretty fucking spectacular, regardless of your thoughts of Musk and his companies.

So yes, he is very good at the distraction tactics. But I'm ok with that, him being the billionaire and doing whatever the hell he wants  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

Wtf. Get your flame thrower now!
$5 million in sales in a few days.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BeeTFQ7AYhy/

----------


## Gestalt

-Fire extinguisher sold separately (for exorbitant amounts of money)
-Taxes and shipping will be added at checkout
-Additional customs fees may apply for international orders because of laws
-International customers can receive a full refund if not happy with said fees
-Before shipping, aspiring flamethrower aficionados will be sent a terms and conditions rhyme for review and acceptance
-Starts shipping in spring
-May not be used on Boring Company decorative lacquered hay bales or Boring Company dockside munitions warehouses

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> -fir conditioner sold separately (for exorbatint amounts of money)
> -taxes and shiping will be added at chek out
> -aditional customs fees may apply for inrnational orders because of law
> -interrattional customers can receiv a full refund not happy with said fews
> -befor shipping, aspiring flamethrower aficeeornados will be sent a terms and cnditions rhyme for reveiw and acceptable
> -starts shiping in spring
> -my not be used on boening company decorative lakweed hay bales or boreing company dock side munitions ware house



ftfy

----------


## Gestalt

Mans a genius. Sells 20000 overproced flamethrowers in a few days.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

Poor ol Elon just can't win with you guys.

Pretty sure its jealousy that you can't come up with a stupid idea and make millions off of it :p

 :Wink:

----------


## Gestalt

> Poor ol Elon just can't win with you guys.
> 
> Pretty sure its jealousy that you can't come up with a stupid idea and make millions off of it :p



A few timed hes said i could of done that, or im just as smart . but (insert excuse) lol

----------


## zhao

_Tesla Model 3 Teardown By Engineering Firm Reveals Quality Flaws Like 'A Kia In The '90s'_

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...&ICID=ref_fark

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> _Tesla Model 3 Teardown By Engineering Firm Reveals Quality Flaws Like 'A Kia In The '90s'_
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...&ICID=ref_fark



Fake news, funded by haters.

----------


## rage2

> _Tesla Model 3 Teardown By Engineering Firm Reveals Quality Flaws Like 'A Kia In The '90s'_
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...&ICID=ref_fark



Most people buying a Tesla aren't really going to care about panel gaps or extra shims on one side of the door frame to keep the window sealed. They're paying for EV tech and aren't concerned about those things anyways.

Realistically, the number of people who truly care about panel gap are pretty minor as a whole.

----------


## rage2

> Tesla model s is the number one selling car in Norway and now 52% of all cars in Norway are electric or hybrid thanks to resla.






> Also high in December because the incentives ended Dec. 31st. Exact same thing happened in Hong Kong.[/url]



Some new Hong Kong data was released this week, and yea, pretty grim there.



That's 32 since the tax breaks were cut. Not 32 a month, but 32 total. The last month incentive spike is also interesting, in that Tesla themselves registered ~1000 vehicles in that 2939 number to take advantage of the rebate and resell the vehicles afterwards. China ended up fucking Tesla on those rebates.

Article here (paywall): https://www.ft.com/content/2b8eb480-...d-41ca06376bf2

Elon Musk is threatening to pull out of HK market if they don't reinstate the rebate, which is worth a whopping $85k per car.  :Shock:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Elon Musk is threatening to pull out of HK market if they don't reinstate the rebate, which is worth a whopping $85k per car.




I wonder if he'll ever produce a decent car that more than a tiny fraction of a small subset of people will pay for before he goes out of business/sells it off? Government subsidies are fucked, I don't want to pay for someone to buy a car that doesn't make sense.

If I were Hong Kong, the door couldn't hit him fast enough with an attitude like that.

----------


## mr2mike

Probably already said but, "Delorean of the 2000's" 
Buy one to be a collectors item in 20 years.

----------


## Xtrema

> I wonder if he'll ever produce a decent car that more than a tiny fraction of a small subset of people will pay for before he goes out of business/sells it off? Government subsidies are fucked, I don't want to pay for someone to buy a car that doesn't make sense.
> 
> If I were Hong Kong, the door couldn't hit him fast enough with an attitude like that.



https://electrek.co/2017/02/22/hong-...entives-tesla/

Typical tax charged on a Tesla is $56KUSD and up to $150K USD. I believe it's a combination of import tariff and local taxes on cars.

That's right folks, that's taxes. It's there to discourage car ownership. All the Tesla bought are basically the 1% trying not to pay taxes that they don't have to.

All HK did is seeing a loophole and close it. Last thing HK need is more cars on the road. And this incentive is really helping the rich anyway and general masses couldn't afford cars to begin with. OR it would be quite an hassle unless you live north of Kowloon.

For reference, a base CRV is $57K CAD in HK. And owning a spot to park it costs $240K CAD. Average annual wage in HK is $30K CAD.

Also consider that HK isn't great for green energy due to real estate costs and 3/4 of electricity is actually imported from Shenzhen. It's tough for them to support the extra EV load incurred to the grid.

Elon isn't going to win in China until Tesla is building cars with the same tolerances as industry standard. China's EV market is doing pretty good on its own with all the import tariffs and business rule that basically hard for foreign companies to participate.

China's EV sales has now hit 4%. We barely hit 1% in North America even with all the incentives. Aston is already shopping for EV partner in China. There is no way the west can keep up at the break neck speed of Chinese developments.

----------


## rage2

> Typical tax charged on a Tesla is $56KUSD and up to $150K USD. I believe it's a combination of import tariff and local taxes on cars.
> 
> That's right folks, that's taxes. It's there to discourage car ownership. All the Tesla bought are basically the 1% trying not to pay taxes that they don't have to.



The tax break is actually still there, it's just capped at around $15k USD. Because the tax incentive was so huge in the first place just for Tesla (and other EVs but they cost nowhere near Model S/X prices), Tesla's TCO skyrocketed by 60-80%.

----------


## dj_patm

Since there's no thread about it....

That SpaceX Falcon Heavy launch and landing was epic.

----------


## lilmira

very nice form on the synchronized landing, 10 out of 10.

----------


## rage2

Fuck Super Bowl commercials. I mean, how can you top this Tesla commercial? haha

----------


## ExtraSlow

SpaceX is da real MVP!

----------


## lilmira

Actually I change my mind, I'm gonna deduct a point for not landing the rockets in an underground lair with monorail SPECTRE style, what a shame!

----------


## HiTempguy1

> very nice form on the synchronized landing, 10 out of 10.



I was blown away by that. You can just imagine Musk at SpaceX "There is only ONE FUCKING WAY THIS IS HAPPENING, and that is with these boosters landing side by god-damn side!" and then everyone worked 100 hour weeks for a couple months  :ROFL!: 

NASA would have just been all "eh, fuck it, make the booster path's as efficient as possible"




> Fuck Super Bowl commercials. I mean, how can you top this Tesla commercial? haha



Even better was Twitter. I HATE Twitter, but guess what popped up as soon as any mention of the center core disappeared?

» Click image for larger version

That gave me a good laugh.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

He should stick to space now, THAT is cool. He sucks at cars, period. Sell it off and focus on this.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

You’re underestimating Tesla and Musk. They’re going to announce the Model Y, and some more details on the roadster, get everyone horny, then raise another $5b in the next quarter or 2. Same cycle.

----------


## ExtraSlow

He's going to call the next new car platform the model T, (after striking a deal with Ford) because it's going to revolutionize transportation even more than the last car to carry that name. The headlines alone will generate billions of fresh capital, and he'll hit his first compensation incentive target. 

Building cars is for chumps.

----------


## killramos

Maybe he should try selling a few model 3’s before he annouces a third future model that no one can afford and that Tesla doesn’t know how to make?

----------


## Xtrema

Model 3 ordering just opened for Canadians. Sounds like he crack the whip and ramp up production hard in the last couple of weeks.

Still without traditional QA, even with way less parts, I will bet that 1st year Model 3s will have lots of issue.

BTW, my bro-in-law asks for his $1000 back because Model 3 AWD is way late and he needs a car soon. All he hears are crickets.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

Will be interesting to see how 1 crash into a median so hard that the front end is gone.

----------


## mzdspd

There is a lot more to that story.. For one, the crash barrier was damaged prior to the accident (see imgur link) so that probably played a huge factor in this collision. 

https://i.imgur.com/ZGERxzv.png

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4104...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...tting_freeway/

----------


## rage2

Stock tanked today as NTSB opens investigation into crash. 

https://jalopnik.com/ntsb-opens-inve...ras-1824115008

I haven’t driven Tesla AP much, but I have driven the first gen Mercedes drive pilot way more, and on roads with shitty or faded markings, it will follow the wrong one. That’s why these are still level 2 and require full attention under use. If the driver wasn’t paying attention and AP followed the right line, it would drive straight into that divider. With that being said, this happened a bit outside our office, and my boss drives this exact route on AP daily without issues. 

Anyways, all speculation, but investors are spooked.

----------


## killramos

Hold on. One automated car crash is what it took?

Years of missed numbers, poor quality control, losing money? Nbd

 :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> Hold on. One automated car crash is what it took?
> 
> Years of missed numbers, poor quality control, losing money? Nbd



The fatal crash last year NTSB found Tesla to be partially at fault, and they had to update the cars to stop complete hands free driving. Kinda surprised this is a big deal.

----------


## killramos

Yea it seems like small potatoes to me.

Can’t wait for them to go under. The sooner they do the sooner I can order my Ford Tesla, and have it built with a semblance of quality and in a reasonable amount of time.

Edit:

I would say the rating downgrade to even lower junk status likely has more to do with it https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cnbc...on-delays.html

6.9% yield on their debt is a tough pill to swallow if they want to raise more money.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

stock down 30% in a month  :Shock:

----------


## rage2

> stock down 30% in a month



Ready to ride the next wave! haha

----------


## Seth1968

> Hold on. One automated car crash is what it took?
> 
> Years of missed numbers, poor quality control, losing money? Nbd



All hail the power of pixie dust.

I'm wondering why Gestalt hasn't replied to the latest developments.

----------


## Chandler_Racing

This one was obvious to me...

I called the short timing in the middle of December 2017.

Their bonds are on the way to junk status.

----------


## realazy

> Their bonds are on the way to junk status.



You mean that they are already seven steps into junk status "Teslas $1.8 billion of senior unsecured notes, issued in August, were downgraded to Caa1, seven steps into junk, from B3"

----------


## rage2

> This one was obvious to me...
> 
> I called the short timing in the middle of December 2017.
> 
> Their bonds are on the way to junk status.



Let’s just wait to see their Q1 numbers as well as their next capital raise first before you say you called it. Although with the performance of their last junk bond, stock price tanking, and $1b of debt maturity in next 12 months, raising capital might prove to be a challenge.

----------


## Seth1968

> This one was obvious to me...
> 
> I called the short timing in the middle of December 2017.
> 
> Their bonds are on the way to junk status.



Uh huh.

That was obvious from day one in which the big automakers would crush Tesla if need be.

What's more evident, is the so called financial advisers that recommend you invest in such a pathetic company.

----------


## Buster

Hey guyz, I did some technical analysis and ran some charts. Tesla gonna be fine.



It looks like its turning into a solid 7th wave up with a classic Socratic bottom. Some big gains to be had here if Ganymede stays retrograde. But if the winter swallows do not return to nest prior to the summer equinox, then we are going to be in for a bumpy ride. Fair warning.

----------


## killramos

> Hey guyz, I did some technical analysis and ran some charts. Tesla gonna be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like its turning into a solid 7th wave up with a classic Socratic bottom. Some big gains to be had here if Ganymede stays retrograde. But if the winter swallows do not return to nest prior to the summer equinox, then we are going to be in for a bumpy ride. Fair warning.



Omg I just spit my coffee all over my keyboard. Fuck.

Love you Buster  :ROFL!: 

Post if the month on so many levels

----------


## Xtrema

> This one was obvious to me...
> 
> I called the short timing in the middle of December 2017.
> 
> Their bonds are on the way to junk status.



Elon is now selling lego bricks

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/26/1...lego-rock-kits

----------


## flipstah

> Hey guyz, I did some technical analysis and ran some charts. Tesla gonna be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like its turning into a solid 7th wave up with a classic Socratic bottom. Some big gains to be had here if Ganymede stays retrograde. But if the winter swallows do not return to nest prior to the summer equinox, then we are going to be in for a bumpy ride. Fair warning.



I'm convinced.

----------


## rage2

> Omg I just spit my coffee all over my keyboard. Fuck.
> 
> Love you Buster 
> 
> Post if the month on so many levels



+1 haha

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Hey guyz, I did some technical analysis and ran some charts. Tesla gonna be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like its turning into a solid 7th wave up with a classic Socratic bottom. Some big gains to be had here if Ganymede stays retrograde. But if the winter swallows do not return to nest prior to the summer equinox, then we are going to be in for a bumpy ride. Fair warning.



Wait a second, that's not the Tesla chart, that's the Bitcoin chart! You're a fraud!

----------


## killramos

> Wait a second, that's not the Tesla chart, that's the Bitcoin chart! You're a fraud!

----------


## Seth1968

> Hey guyz, I did some technical analysis and ran some charts. Tesla gonna be fine.
> 
> 
> It looks like its turning into a solid 7th wave up with a classic Socratic bottom. Some big gains to be had here if Ganymede stays retrograde. But if the winter swallows do not return to nest prior to the summer equinox, then we are going to be in for a bumpy ride. Fair warning.



Ganymede stays retrograde?

I can't touch such brilliance.

Well done sir.

----------


## rage2

http://abc7news.com/automotive/i-tea...pilot/3275600/

Driver that died was an Apple engineer on his way to work. He's complained to Tesla multiple times about autopilot malfunctioning and steering him into that exact same barrier. Tesla says no records of him with autopilot complaints, family has invoices for said service that's been sent to investigators.




NTSB has got the "black boxes" as well.

----------


## never

> http://abc7news.com/automotive/i-tea...pilot/3275600/
> 
> ...He's complained to Tesla multiple times about autopilot malfunctioning and steering him into that exact same barrier...



Then why leave it on every time you went by that same barrier??

----------


## JustinL

> He's complained to Tesla multiple times about autopilot malfunctioning and steering him into that exact same barrier.



Ok, there's the teachable moment. If your AI car tries to kill you at the same place multiple times... don't let the auto pilot take control there.

----------


## flipstah

Shhitttt

----------


## rage2

I think the problem is that these level 2 systems, while it requires full attention, works well enough these days that your attention would lapse defeating the requirement. He could’ve daydreamed and missed turning it off at that point. Or it would only sporadically fail. Who knows lots of reasons if AP was actually on. All speculation till NTSB investigation is complete. 

With that being said, the investigation will take months. In the meantime picked up some Tesla stock today haha. Let’s hope Elon distracts well enough in next weeks quarterly call and idiots drive up the stock price.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16...ving-car-tesla

----------


## rage2

> https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16...ving-car-tesla



He’s not wrong. Only problem is Tesla’s don’t have remotely close to the GPU power needed to do what he wants today.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

I wouldn't say I'm surprised, but if I had been betting, I'd have lost.

I figured at the end of the day when all was said and done they'd get their shit sorted. It really doesn't look like that will happen.

I only really care about spacex, so as long as that is ok... Tesla can crash and burn (ha! Topical)

----------


## Xtrema

I still hope Tesla survives but it's getting unlikely by the day.

In the event of sell off, how likely will one of the big brands buy up Tesla for the charging network? Really that's the only part of Tesla is worth any $ IMO.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

House of cards finally falling? *gasp* how shocking. Although I'm sure trolly will still be ordering 2!

----------


## rage2

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/1...ilot-statement

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week’s-accident

I get that Tesla has a creative marketing team that can make shit sounds better than it is, but when it comes to this, I really wish they just stick to the truth without trying to twist the narrative. Just 2 sentences with vague details, and 6 paragraphs on how safe they think AP is. 

So, reading through all that, we know the following about the accident. 

- Autopilot was on and drove straight into the barrier. 
- Some point prior to the accident, zero reference to time, driver had some warnings. If you’ve ever driven AP, you’ll know that the hand detection does randomly go off even if hands are on the wheel (it detects hands by turning force on the wheel)
- the car detected hands off 6 seconds prior to the accident, 5 seconds to see AP barreling towards the barrier and driver did nothing. 

So, most likely driver wasn’t paying attention, and I can tell you using these AP systems, I’ve been guilty of that. It gives you a false sense of security. My theory that the car followed the line into the false lane straight into the barrier is probably correct. Could’ve been just weird lighting that caused AP to behave differently because it “saw” the lines differently. Finally, this goes to show why we actually need LIDAR. Emergency braking did nothing, and this is by design on radar based systems, regardless if it’s Tesla, Mercedes, Volvo, or any other manufacturer. This is because radar can’t really tell stationary objects properly without a ton of false positives, rendering it useless. Optical recognition needs mega GPU power, and we’re not even close to being there yet, hence LIDAR as a stop gap. Because of this limitation and Tesla’s reluctance to use LIDAR, there are a ton of Tesla’s in the news running into stopped objects.

----------


## killramos

Will be funny if they go into bankruptcy protection and everyone’s pre order deposits get locked up for a few years in bankruptcy proceedings.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

I wonder if someone like Shell would buy the charging network?

Great PR and they have made themselves very clear about pursuing greener energy initiatives in the past. Great expertise running service stations in house. 

They could obviously afford it.

Though the future perpetual charging obligations for S and X owners will lower the value of the existing network pretty significantly.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> In the event of sell off, how likely will one of the big brands buy up Tesla for the charging network? Really that's the only part of Tesla is worth any $ IMO.



Really? What's that worth? They don't own the land those chargers are built on, IMO.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> McDonald's or Starbucks should buy it, It is the very definition of a captive customer situation
> 
> Although I kind of think that in 5 to 10 years it will be an outdated and worthless. Home charging is way more viable now, and public charging areas are popping up everywhere. New charging systems are going to be way faster as well. In even just a few years the question will be [Why would you go to a "supercharger station" with your antiquated model-S when you could buy a band new German luxury e-car and charge up in 5 minutes.]



I’m not convinced the charging network has much value either to be honest. Just a thought.

Tesla will likely need to be more creative about raising funds in the next year or so and maybe selling off the charging network and some of the other solar city junk can raise them enough to limp through another year?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## revelations

The moment governments/people/corporations start investing in smart roads (ie. roads with sensor/radar reflective markers) the auto pilot vehicles will have a much more level playing field. 

Right now, for road tracking, some companies are utilizing Lidar and some are utilizing radar or optics. Once the actual road/lane edge detection has been figured out (for all weather conditions), the manufacturers can focus more on the "what if" scenarios a little better. 

An example would be the auto-uber complete failure to detect a large mammal crossing the road slowly. Another would be debris on the road.

----------


## speedog

> McDonald's or Starbucks should buy it, It is the very definition of a captive customer situation
> 
> Although I kind of think that in 5 to 10 years it will be an outdated and worthless. Home charging is way more viable now, and public charging areas are popping up everywhere. New charging systems are going to be way faster as well. In even just a few years the question will be [Why would you go to a "supercharger station" with your antiquated model-S when you could buy a band new German luxury e-car and charge up in 5 minutes.]



Which German luxury e-car is capable of being fully charged in 5 minutes?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## speedog

> You could read the entire post and the answer would be: all of them in 5 to 10 years.



Aah but not right now. Even in 5-10 years, I wonder if e-vehicle support systems will be as strong as you say. Time will tell I guess but the whole industry seems to be poking along at a snail's pace - much lower growth or availability than I would've expected. In Calgary, a true e-vehicle is still quite a rare sight.

----------


## Maxt

At some places I work at, the electric vehicle stalls have been converted into handicap and loading zones after a few years of being unused, the buy in hasn't been happening at the pace planned for I guess. You'd think at places with 40-50 full-time staff, at least one person would have gone EV by this time..

----------


## rage2

> I’m not convinced the charging network has much value either to be honest. Just a thought.



You’re correct here. The superchargers only work on Tesla’s. If Tesla goes under, no more growth. Even if you open the standard to others, it’ll be outdated by the time they’re implemented in other vehicles as more powerful chargers and batteries hit the market.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## RedDawn

Tesla declares bankruptcy

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/980566101124722688

----------


## ExtraSlow

Settle down. Check the date.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Tesla is a master business genius, he planned this perfectly. He's about to change the world again. This time, he's launching his own stock market.

----------


## adam c

> Tesla is a master business genius, he planned this perfectly. He's about to change the world again. This time, he's launching his own stock market.



Musk you mean?

----------


## rage2

Tesla Model S owner tries to recreate the Model X Accident, nearly crashes into same barrier.

----------


## HiTempguy1

So do the Tesla cars not have the ability to detect solid objects in their path?

Thats what confuses me most about this, would it not register a big f'in wall and stop?

----------


## 300havoc

> Tesla Model S owner tries to recreate the Model X Accident, nearly crashes into same barrier.




You can see that it is following the solid painted line.... that happens to be for the wrong lane. The line that it should be following is barely there. I wonder if that makes a difference? Also the Chevrons could be confusing it as well. Crazy that the issue happens with more than one different vehicle in the same place. I wonder if they painted the lane line better it would resolve the autopilot issue?

----------


## killramos

They can, there just seems to be some specific circumstances that prevent the system from working as intended.

I cant imagine the amount of tuning and false positive rejection this system must have to deal with to prevent the car from slamming in the brakes every time it thinks it saw something momentarily.

The downside to the rejection algorithms is sometimes this happens.

Its the same for pretty much any other manufacturer, the difference is Tesla keeps releasing beta shit and hyping it up without being clear to their customers if the risks. This is what could really screw them.

Running beta in a video game or something? Bfd. Now beta software in your car at 80 mph? Thats a bit more serious.

----------


## rage2

Apparently, that's a different road/different barrier in Indiana.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> They can, there just seems to be some specific circumstances that prevent the system from working as intended.
> 
> I can’t imagine the amount of tuning and false positive rejection this system must have to deal with to prevent the car from slamming in the brakes every time it thinks it saw something momentarily.
> 
> The downside to the rejection algorithms is sometimes this happens.
> 
> It’s the same for pretty much any other manufacturer, the difference is Tesla keeps releasing beta shit and hyping it up without being clear to their customers if the risks. This is what could really screw them.
> 
> Running beta in a video game or something? Bfd. Now beta software in your car at 80 mph? That’s a bit more serious.



Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) doesn't really work well on stationary objects at highway speeds, this is across all manufacturers. This is a limitation in using radar (relatively short range and low resolution) and cameras (tech and GPU power not there yet) to detect stationary objects. Lidar can do it much better, but there's a huge cost and physical size barrier to Lidar today. GM's SuperCruise has a bit of an advantage here in that even though it's not equipped with Lidar, it has HD Lidar maps that aids in making autonomous decisions, but that's only useful if the data is current, and the road you're on is mapped. Not that it matters, Tesla says Lidar is the wrong way to go and prefer to run blind.  :crazy nut: 

In Tesla's case, it's even worse. Since they divorced MobileEye with their AP 1.0 suite and went in house, AP 2.0 and 2.5 have been struggling to meet feature parity with AP 1.0, with AEB being hugely behind themselves, and even against other manufacturers. AEB wasn't even available until a year ago for AP 2.0 cars, and when launched, was limited to 28mph. Subsequent updates have increased that limitation, but with the introduction of AP 2.5, again, was launched without AEB, then eventually updated to 50mph about 5 months ago. I'm not sure where AP 2.5 sits in regards to performance and limitation, and I'm sure NTSB will be investigating that thoroughly.

Consumer reports made a huge stink about Tesla's not having AEB last year, which is what prompted Tesla to roll out AEB for AP 2.0 and 2.5 half baked.

Anyways, Tesla's have been rear ending stationary objects forever.

http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...ked-fire-truck

This guy died:




Slow speed:




Here's one ignoring a human:




There's tons more, just have to find them, they're kinda buried on youtube because if you search for Tesla crash you get a shit ton of Tesla avoid crash videos which have nothing to do with stationary objects. People just need to realize that AP isn't anywhere near perfect. It's Level 2 for a reason. Same goes for all the other systems out there from MB, Audi, GM which will make the same mistakes. It's just unfortunate that Tesla marketing and Tesla owners increase the trust in Tesla's AP beyond it's actual abilities.

Kinda funny that last night's Silicon Valley has Dinesh crashing his Tesla the same way too haha.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Musk you mean?



There was a joke in there....

----------


## Buster

> Tesla Model S owner tries to recreate the Model X Accident, nearly crashes into same barrier.



That's a Darwin test right there.

----------


## dirtsniffer

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/04/...la_a_23400966/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

It had nothing to with his stupid tweet, and everything to do with the fact that Tesla's doling out junk bonds that pay out @ 6.8%.

----------


## zhao

^ yup, if anything the tweet was brilliant cover because the stock already tanked in after hours trading before he posted that joke

----------


## Xtrema

> About a year ago, I asked Doug to manage both engineering & production. He agreed that Tesla needed eng & prod better aligned, so we dont design cars that are crazy hard to build. Right now, tho, better to divide & conquer, so Im back to sleeping at factory. Car biz is hell 
> 
>  Elon Musk (@elonmusk) April 2, 2018



Planned for 20K a month at end of 2017, revised to 10K a month, actually doing 8K a month 3 months late.

And even at that slow rate, it has horrible fit and finish.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Planned for 20K a month at end of 2017, revised to 10K a month, actually doing 8K a month 3 months late.
> 
> And even at that slow rate, it has horrible fit and finish.



It's a garbage product from a garbage company, regardless of the few shiny apples. I doubt he'll still be such a genius and a hero to all these people when the gullible lose all their "investment" money. The smart people made their Tesla cash getting in/out, anyone in this long term is going to end up busted I'm sure. He should stick to rockets perhaps solar, that's what's going to ultimately be successful. Sell the cars off to someone who knows what they're doing and hope the entire enterprise doesn't crumble when he does.

----------


## Seth1968

Gestalt? Gestalt? How come you haven't been defending your god?

Probably because even you are beginning to realize that your god is a shyster. But, at least he isn't invisible  :Wink:

----------


## rage2

New video showing autopilot following the wrong line towards the barrier.




What's interesting is that AP isn't following the car in front at all. I thought it uses that data too to make proper decisions.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Gestalt? Gestalt? How come you haven't been defending your god?
> 
> Probably because even you are beginning to realize that your god is a shyster. But, at least he isn't invisible



Probably too busy trying to cancel his deposits and get his money out of the market.

Edit - Well, if everything they said wasn't complete and utter bullshit. I almost forget that sometimes haha

Edit 2 - Pretty sure that trolling has run its course and they've now returned as Enrichii

----------


## Xtrema

> New video showing autopilot following the wrong line towards the barrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's interesting is that AP isn't following the car in front at all. I thought it uses that data too to make proper decisions.



Now I wonder if NTSB is bitching at Tesla for releasing info prematurely on this crash because they know they can find evidence that contradict what Tesla said.

May be the warning wasn't there at all as much Tesla wants to push liability on user error again.

----------


## rage2

> Now I wonder if NTSB is bitching at Tesla for releasing info prematurely on this crash because they know they can find evidence that contradict what Tesla said.
> 
> May be the warning wasn't there at all as much Tesla wants to push liability on user error again.



Tesla worded their statement to fit their narrative. If you read exactly what Tesla wrote:

"The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision."

There are 2 separate statements that they put into the same sentence to confuse the reader that it was related. It's not. The driver had hands off for too long earlier in the drive, not during the preceding seconds prior to the accident. There is no indication on when that happened.

The second part of the sentence explains that the car last detected hands on the steering wheel 6 seconds prior to the accident, so at a minimum, there was no "hands off" warning there, or the warning was cancelled at that point. But there's a caveat with both these statements. I've mentioned this earlier, as I've had time behind various versions of Teslas and AP. The car doesn't actually detect hands on steering wheel, it detects torque against the steering wheel. On a perfectly straight road, you can have your hands on the steering wheel and it will still trigger that warning, where you steer the wheel a little to let the car know your hands are actually there to cancel the warning. Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot has the same setup, but it seems more sensitive to torque against the steering wheel, so the false "no hands on wheels" warning is a lot less than on a Tesla in AP. Not sure about other auto cruise systems.

There was no AP disengaging/Take control now warnings up to the accident, at least not mentioned by Tesla.

At the end of the day, this is just a distraction for Tesla and has zero bearing on their stock price. It's interesting to understand the AP black box a little better though.

----------


## rage2

I always love Tesla's 8K filings.

http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?fi...63&CIK=1318605




> Q1 production totaled 34,494 vehicles, a 40% increase from Q4 and by far the most productive quarter in Tesla history. 24,728 were Model S and Model X, and 9,766 were Model 3. The Model 3 output increased exponentially, representing a fourfold increase over last quarter. This is the fastest growth of any automotive company in the modern era. *If this rate of growth continues, it will exceed even that of Ford and the Model T.*



Funny shit. Please keep the hype going until I net a quick 30% gain.

----------


## rage2

> In the meantime picked up some Tesla stock today haha. Let’s hope Elon distracts well enough in next weeks quarterly call and idiots drive up the stock price.



Up 15% in a week. Fucking easy money haha.

----------


## taemo

> Up 15% in a week. Fucking easy money haha.



you're over 20% now  :thumbs up: 

I made the bet with AAPL but it has been a roller coaster ride the past week so only 5% gain

----------


## rage2

Cashed out at a little under 19% today. Solid gamble.

The Model X crash isn't going away. And Tesla is pretty much being an asshole about the whole thing.

http://abc7news.com/automotive/exclu...-team/3325177/

Tesla's response is downright harsh.




> We are very sorry for the family's loss.
> 
> According to the family, Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect and, specifically, he told them it was not reliable in that exact location, yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location. The crash happened on a clear day with several hundred feet of visibility ahead, which means that the only way for this accident to have occurred is if Mr. Huang was not paying attention to the road, despite the car providing multiple warnings to do so.
> 
> The fundamental premise of both moral and legal liability is a broken promise, and there was none here. Tesla is extremely clear that Autopilot requires the driver to be alert and have hands on the wheel. This reminder is made every single time Autopilot is engaged. If the system detects that hands are not on, it provides visual and auditory alerts. This happened several times on Mr. Huang's drive that day.
> 
> We empathize with Mr. Huang's family, who are understandably facing loss and grief, but the false impression that Autopilot is unsafe will cause harm to others on the road. *NHTSA found that even the early version of Tesla Autopilot resulted in 40% fewer crashes and it has improved substantially since then. The reason that other families are not on TV is because their loved ones are still alive.*



That last bit is downright brutal, not only in delivery, but in truthfulness of the 40% statement. There's a lawsuit trying to figure out where that 40% number comes from.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/a...dot-tesla-data

Premise is that the research is flawed, autopilot came out the same time as automated braking, and there's existing research that pegs AEB accident reduction at 40%.

Anyways, lots of other quality issues with Model 3, more autopilot steering into shit, and now a mess with certified pre-owned cars this week not being refurbished, which is a problem because used sales are all purchased sight unseen. Really starting to see a swing in Tesla worshippers on the forums starting to turn on Tesla a little. Think this might be the turning point for the stock.

----------


## J-hop

i searched but couldnt find much on Canadian law regarding auto pilot control.

Obviously in Alberta you could not do anything other than focus on the road with the autopilot on as you are still defined as a driver even if you dont have control (still tick the care portion of the care and control definition of a driver in the ATSA) so youd be slapped with distracted driving if you were doing other things.

However beyond that what have Canada and/or the provinces done to address this tech?

I cant find any references to maintaining physical control of the vehicle in the ATSA

----------


## rage2

> i searched but couldn’t find much on Canadian law regarding “auto pilot” control.
> 
> Obviously in Alberta you could not do anything other than focus on the road with the autopilot on as you are still defined as a “driver” even if you don’t have control (still tick the care portion of the care and control definition of a driver in the ATSA) so you’d be slapped with distracted driving if you were doing other things.
> 
> However beyond that what have Canada and/or the provinces done to address this tech?
> 
> I can’t find any references to maintaining physical control of the vehicle in the ATSA



The driver is always under control, period. The autonomous systems are all level 2 today, until level 3 is out and regulations sorted out for level 3 vehicles, drivers will always have to pay attention.

----------


## J-hop

> The driver is always under control, period. The autonomous systems are all level 2 today, until level 3 is out and regulations sorted out for level 3 vehicles, drivers will always have to pay attention.



Yea thats what I was reading under nhtsa Tesla is still level 2. However nhtsa states at level 2 driver will be required to be able to regain control with short notice. So kinda sounds like under nhtsa you could technically have your hands off the wheel. 

I havent seen much in the way of laws addressing it in Canada. While you are under Alberta law required to pay attention I dont see anywhere about keeping a physical connection.

----------


## zhao

> and now a mess with certified pre-owned cars this week not being refurbished, which is a problem because used sales are all purchased sight unseen.



that alone would make me never buy from that company. Imagine paying top dollar for a cert pre-owned from quebec used to tail gate sanding trucks and never washed to clean the salt off it, but has routinely had an ice scraper applied to its paint to de-ice it, while the back seat is used to haul babies that spill their cheerios and milk daily.

----------


## speedog

> that alone would make me never buy from that company. Imagine paying top dollar for a cert pre-owned from quebec used to tail gate sanding trucks and never washed to clean the salt off it, but has routinely had an ice scraper applied to its paint to de-ice it, while the back seat is used to haul babies that spill their cheerios and milk daily.



Pfft, did you not know that Teslas are made from unobtainium and as such, are impervious to the issues you speak of?

----------


## ExtraSlow

And they could only ever go up in value.

----------


## rage2

If you're up for a read, here's the CPO mess that started right after their policy change. You can't see the cars prior to purchase and it comes delivered in pretty disgusting condition.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...a-scam.112768/



Apparently, the new policy on not refurbishing CPO cars is to cut costs as a huge # of leases are starting to come back into Tesla's hands.

----------


## killramos

Thats terrible.

I would have toyed with the idea of picking up a used one for a couple years but thats a pretty big deterrent.

Have the residuals dropped like a rock in response?

Not even cleaning the cars... thats not CPO. Thats NE special.

----------


## rage2

Well this is interesting.

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...igation-2018-4

Tesla pulls out of NTSB investigation, but will still provide technical support to NTSB. Sparring over release of information during investigation, as Tesla continues to release statements blaming the driver.

----------


## Xtrema

> If you're up for a read, here's the CPO mess that started right after their policy change. You can't see the cars prior to purchase and it comes delivered in pretty disgusting condition.
> 
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...a-scam.112768/
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, the new policy on not refurbishing CPO cars is to cut costs as a huge # of leases are starting to come back into Tesla's hands.



TLDR, what the hell would anyone take delivery on car in that condition? Or is this just fanboyism trusting Tesla sight unseen?

----------


## RedDawn

You should really read before posting stuff like this and falsely attributing it to the new CPO program. They're still cleaning the cars before reselling them under the new program. There's obviously something wrong with the way this specific car was handled prior to resale but it's not indicative of the standard that will be followed for the new CPO process.

----------


## rage2

> TLDR, what the hell would anyone take delivery on car in that condition? Or is this just fanboyism trusting Tesla sight unseen?



You have no choice. The process is fucked. You buy the car with no pictures sight unseen from Tesla's website:

https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms

Click on any car, you get stock photos. You have to trust Tesla from here on in. Put in your deposit, pay for the car, and it gets delivered to your door on a truck after a couple of weeks. The reason it takes so long is because some of these cars aren't sitting on some Tesla used lot, they're active service loaners, and have to wait until it comes back from whomever is using it.

If you click on the car, there's a new disclaimer for their used cars now:



So they'll guarantee that it's mechanically sound, and that's it. They're supposed to clean it, but clearly, that didn't happen in the above car.

The entire process makes it completely hit/miss. End up buying a car that's an active loaner, you end up with something like above. Buy a used one that came back from a lease from an owner who cares about the car, you'll have a car that feels brand new.

----------


## rage2

> You should really read before posting stuff like this and falsely attributing it to the new CPO program. They're still cleaning the cars before reselling them under the new program. There's obviously something wrong with the way this specific car was handled prior to resale but it's not indicative of the standard that will be followed for the new CPO process.



I'm not falsely attributing anything. Cleanliness is one thing, there's a ton of damage on that car. No other CPO program from any other manufacturer would sell a certified car with so much shit broken. The key is that they no longer refurbish their used cars for sale, and you don't get to see what it looks like prior to delivery.

Really, the only thing I posted wrong is that I'm still calling it CPO. Tesla looks to have completely removed the CPO term on their site now.

----------


## killramos

How do carproofs look on Tesla’s?

Can you see if it was a service loaner?

----------


## rage2

> How do carproofs look on Tesla’s?
> 
> Can you see if it was a service loaner?



No clue. Carproof and carfax relies on data provided by service centers, so that's all under control by Tesla.

----------


## rage2

> Well this is interesting.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...igation-2018-4
> 
> Tesla pulls out of NTSB investigation, but will still provide technical support to NTSB. Sparring over release of information during investigation, as Tesla continues to release statements blaming the driver.



Funny, further updates:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ilot-data-flap

So basically, Tesla got the boot, but announce they quit instead before it's announced they got the boot.  :ROFL!: 

IIRC, they did the same thing with the Mobileye split, Mobileye terminated the contract, Tesla says they pulled out before Mobileye said anything.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Tesla's entire empire is built on its owners and investors willingness to overlook their numerous flaws. 
> 
> They probably just should have said their software is incomplete and risky, and they would have been forgiven.



I doubt that would work. DOT wouldn't allow the feature if that was the case, taking away a huge competitive advantage for Tesla. I'm actually surprised DOT was OK with something that has the potential to affect safety like autopilot to be allowed in the field as a beta feature.

----------


## Brent.ff

this sums up the stupidity of various tesla owners so much 



> If its good enough for Tesla, its sure as hell good enough for me

----------


## Xtrema

> Funny, further updates:
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ilot-data-flap
> 
> So basically, Tesla got the boot, but announce they quit instead before it's announced they got the boot. 
> 
> IIRC, they did the same thing with the Mobileye split, Mobileye terminated the contract, Tesla says they pulled out before Mobileye said anything.






> Update, 12:43 p.m.: A Tesla spokesperson said in a statement, The characterization of the call as relayed to Bloomberg is false.
> 
> Update, 1:49 p.m.: The NTSB makes it official.
> 
> In a press release, the agency said it removed Tesla as a party to its ongoing investigation because Tesla violated the party agreement by releasing investigative information before it was vetted and confirmed by the NTSB.
> 
> Such releases of incomplete information often lead to speculation and incorrect assumptions about the probable cause of a crash, which does a disservice to the investigative process and the traveling public, the release said.



Man, Tesla PR sucks.

----------


## zhao

> I'm actually surprised DOT was OK with something that has the potential to affect safety like autopilot to be allowed in the field as a beta feature.



Its part of the reason I hate tesla so much. They dont give a shit about the human cost of rushing this crap to market. Beta testing this shit claiming its A++++ done and giving it a hugely misleading title of autopilot, i'm actually surprised one of these things hasn't malfunctioned and caused a head on collision with some innocent person who didn't even want to be a test victim for tesla's 'wont be ready for public mainstream use for 10 years' autopilot.

----------


## benyl

What I am surprised about is how the whole system shuts down, but the car is still drivable. I'm surprised the base functions have fucked up yet during a system restart.

----------


## Xtrema

> What I am surprised about is how the whole system shuts down, but the car is still drivable. I'm surprised the base functions have fucked up yet during a system restart.



I was surprised too. I survived a reboot at 55mph.

At least they got that right.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Stock is spiking, Elon said they'll make money soon!!!!! That's literally all it takes for the lemmings....er, I mean the faithful. A tweet.  :facepalm:

----------


## suntan

Somebody make a fake Musk account and fuck around with the stock price.

----------


## benyl

> Somebody make a fake Musk account and fuck around with the stock price.



why? The real one does it all the time.

----------


## J-hop

> Its part of the reason I hate tesla so much. They dont give a shit about the human cost of rushing this crap to market. Beta testing this shit claiming its A++++ done and giving it a hugely misleading title of autopilot, i'm actually surprised one of these things hasn't malfunctioned and caused a head on collision with some innocent person who didn't even want to be a test victim for tesla's 'wont be ready for public mainstream use for 10 years' autopilot.



I agree with you on the claims side but at the same time Im getting sick of this padded walls approach. The most effective way to work out the bugs in something is to field test it thousands of times under thousands of different conditions and collect the data. Thats something Tesla (or any other manufacturer) simply cant do on their own. 

You want to be part of the leading edge of innovation there are inherent risks in that. But I despise the idea that something has to be potato proof before delivery to the masses.

Maybe Tesla could have done a better job expressing the risks I dont know.

----------


## rage2

> I agree with you on the claims side but at the same time I’m getting sick of this padded walls approach. The most effective way to work out the bugs in something is to field test it thousands of times under thousands of different conditions and collect the data. That’s something Tesla (or any other manufacturer) simply can’t do on their own. 
> 
> You want to be part of the leading edge of innovation there are inherent risks in that. But I despise the idea that something has to be potato proof before delivery to the masses.



Waymo has zero problems testing on their own. Tesla relying on the public to do that work for them is poor judgement that might come back and bite them.

----------


## J-hop

> Waymo has zero problems testing on their own. Tesla relying on the public to do that work for them is poor judgement that might come back and bite them.



In a way they are doing the same though and have applied to test fully driverless cars in California and have already been running them in Phoenix apparently. They want to do this when they haven’t even been able to nail down autonomous vehicles WITH safety drivers.

I’m fairly certain they changed the project name to waymo to try to clear the google search slate haha.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> So despite how awful Tesla is at running a business, they are at least good at the worst aspects of it:
> 
> http://markets.businessinsider.com/n...8-4-1021400721
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla's took a page out of Trump's playbook: IT'S FAKE NEWS
> 
> lol



They have been using Trump's playbook with NTSB investigation all along.

----------


## rage2

> Tesla's took a page out of Trump's playbook: IT'S FAKE NEWS






> They have been using Trump's playbook with NTSB investigation all along.



They've been using Trump's playbook since page 1 of this thread haha. I posted about Tesla beating luxury manufacturer's sales #'s with the Model S, but they cherry picked S Class and 7 series stats without mentioning it.

That's like me claiming I've sold more albums than Wu Tang Clan, which is truthful if I compare our old rap group's album sales to Once Upon a Time in Shaolin.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

Mix masta cul-de-sack.

----------


## rage2

> Wait, what? You were in a rap group?
> 
> I have so many questions! Where can we download these sweet tunes from? Do you have a rap video? What were your street thug names?



https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/219...-of-Da-Century

----------


## Xtrema

> They've been using Trump's playbook since page 1 of this thread haha. I posted about Tesla beating luxury manufacturer's sales #'s with the Model S, but they cherry picked S Class and 7 series stats without mentioning it.



https://jalopnik.com/tesla-s-war-wit...poi-1825296262




> In one breath, Tesla tries to portray itself as a defender of journalistic integrity, while at the same time parroting the same rhetoric Trump and his ilk have relied upon to attack traditional news organizations for the past two years. It’s bullshit, even putting aside the fact that the bizarre “extremist” charge was leveled simply for talking to union supporters.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Tesla suspends production of the Model 3: Looks like they are going to re-tool so they can abandon autonomy in favour of good ol' fashion hand-built cars. Ironic!



This has been talked about for quite some time. Toyota literally figured out the most efficient way to build cars with the lowest amount of defects in the US, ironically at the NUMMI factory which they sold to Tesla for nothing. The lessons learnt by Toyota is applied at their Kentucky plant. It's not even a secret, it's been well documented and published, books to even Wikipedia articles on TPS.

With automation, you can only go so far. At one point, there's a point of diminishing returns, such as in final assembly, where it costs less to have human labor perform the work than do have robots do the work. The math there is that it costs less for human labor in the US than the costs of robots, engineers, and maintenance staff to keep it going. This is what Musk refers to when he said he made an automation mistake, and was predicted by anyone that knows anything about building cars at the beginning when Tesla said they're automating everything, and limits will be aerodynamics of robots.  :ROFL!: 

It's probably an unfair comparison as cars are more complex these days (you could argue that Tesla says EVs are much simplier), but the NUMMI plant was churning out 9000 cars a week at it's peak. That was all sold off to Tesla, and has since doubled in size. They're basically pushing out 3000 cars a week across 3 models in double the space. That's how far away Tesla is from being on par with Toyota/GM at the exact same place.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Yes, I think it's a point that is often forgotten, an EV is mechanically less complex and should assemble much faster than a ICE-powered vehicle. All the "high tech" bits of the tesla are basically software anyway, which may or may not be impressive, but it's not hard to assemble once the code is written.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> A big part of their problem is they are not really car designers, they are tech geeks... so likely zero effort when into making the vehicles easy to construct. Whereas any major car manufacturer puts that as one of the top priorities when they start the design of a new car. You can tell that construction was an afterthought... and it is going to sink them.
> 
> If they had played this right, they probably could have done an amazing job with production. With no mechanical engine, they could have made a super simple modular style design that could be churned out in half the time. The car would have been slightly less stylish, but it would have been way more affordable and cost effective to make. Let's be honest... Tesla cars are fucking ugly as shit anyway, it isn't like the cult following they seem to attract would reject an even uglier car.



I don't think that's the case. With the original roadster, yes, production was brutal. The S/X/3 was designed to be easy to build (exception maybe with the falcon doors on the X). The problem is trying to assemble cars differently hoping to disrupt the industry, which failed. I'm sure if Tesla adopted TPS at the start, things would be a bit different today.

If you go back to page 1, I identified Tesla's biggest problem, the cost to ramp up mass production. It will take hundreds of billions of dollars to get to the worldwide level of production numbers/quality of the big car manufacturers if you're doing it the proven reliable way. Unfortunately, that takes years of sales to fund that sort of growth, or massive outside investment. Tesla is trying to shortcut the whole process and do it cheaper, only to bite them in the ass with inconsistent quality and random problems trying to ramp up.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> If you go back to page 1, I identified Tesla's biggest problem, the cost to ramp up mass production. It will take hundreds of billions of dollars to get to the worldwide level of production numbers/quality of the big car manufacturers if you're doing it the proven reliable way. Unfortunately, that takes years of sales to fund that sort of growth, or massive outside investment. Tesla is trying to shortcut the whole process and do it cheaper, only to bite them in the ass with inconsistent quality and random problems trying to ramp up.




But wasn't that whole argument completely discredited by Gestidiot?  :ROFL!:  I wonder why that troll isn't in here righteously defending his messiah? lolololol

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rx7boi

My Science and Technology mutual fund is 9.7% in Tesla haha. I'm sure the fund manager has some sort of strategy but I don't know what it is.

----------


## rage2

> But wasn't that whole argument completely discredited by Gestidiot?  I wonder why that troll isn't in here righteously defending his messiah? lolololol



Like Sugarphreak said, it was mostly supe. He couldn't separate the difference between Tesla the car and Tesla the company.




> My Science and Technology mutual fund is 9.7% in Tesla haha. I'm sure the fund manager has some sort of strategy but I don't know what it is.



I used a completely different strategy this round in predicting Tesla's spike by monitoring reddit and TMC forums, and how they reacted to current news to play the short game. I actually caught both the bottom and peak by $3. Pretty proud of myself there haha.

Tesla as a long game is a dangerous game to play IMO.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Like Sugarphreak said, it was mostly supe. He couldn't separate the difference between Tesla the car and Tesla the company.




Ahhh, yes I see that. It's tough to remember which wingnut was drinking out of which glass of kool-aid.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Good listen/read on Fremont Factory to NUMMI factory transition. You can see a lot of the mistakes that Tesla is making by not leveraging what made NUMMI successful.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transc...ryId=125229157

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Good listen/read on Fremont Factory to NUMMI factory transition. You can see a lot of the mistakes that Tesla is making by not leveraging what made NUMMI successful.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/templates/transc...ryId=125229157



It's shocking that despite there being an incredible amount of lessons-learned in that industry, Tesla decided they wanted to do their own thing and managed to fail to produce quantity _or_ quality. Usually you'll hit one at least.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> It's shocking that despite there being an incredible amount of lessons-learned in that industry, Tesla decided they wanted to do their own thing and managed to fail to produce quantity _or_ quality. Usually you'll hit one at least.



Is it really though? The man has an insane level of arrogance. Which, admittedly, has served him well. However everyone has limits and he never was and never will be, a car manufacturer.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Honestly Tesla as a company would have probably been fine making 0-60 in 3s cars for the rich. 150g 200g 250g per car, irrelevant as they can sell every one they make (at their original low production speed) as a lot of the people buying their cars don’t care about the math, they just want something cool. Which Tesla’s are for sure, the whole niche concept worked perfectly for them.

Same as any niche car, AMG M, Lamborghini Ferrari, Range Rover G class. None of those cars make any sense. But they are cool so who cares and they sell every one they make. Doesn’t mean everyone in the world should be driving one.

It was the callous attitude that he was going to surpass the mainstream automakers in selling normal cars that is doing him in.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Is it really though? The man has an insane level of arrogance. Which, admittedly, has served him well. However everyone has limits and he never was and never will be, a car manufacturer.



I figured after their early public production failures they'd at least have the sense to hire some industry experts to get their shit sorted out. Apparently I underestimated Musk's ego.

----------


## benyl

> It's shocking that despite there being an incredible amount of lessons-learned in that industry, Tesla decided they wanted to do their own thing and managed to fail to produce quantity _or_ quality. Usually you'll hit one at least.



you can't change the world if you do the same way everyone else does....

----------


## suntan

> you can't change the world if you do the same way everyone else does....



That's why I do everything bottomless.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## J-hop

Thoughts on Matt Robinson 
@car
 throttle’s article saying Tesla will be out of money by the end of 2018? Wasn’t very in depth or enlightening, only a few paragraphs long. 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/tes...e-end-of-2018/

----------


## rage2

Been driving a P100D down here in the Bay Area. First time driving an AP2.5 car. Autopilot is still sketchy, annoying how a lot of Tesla owners claim it does way more than reality. Still can’t handle sharper turns properly. 

Works well on the freeway in the middle lanes. The side lanes it’s all over the place due to poor decision making when faced with lane merges and jogs. Sometimes it’ll track left line, sometimes right line so I look like a drunk driver. 

Almost feel like AP1 is better, but it’s been a while since I drove an AP1 car.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Who's shorting Tesla today? I want to but don't have the balls to.

Earnings announcement after market closes today. Should be fun.

----------


## killramos

I have thought about buying some one year puts but they are surprisingly pricey. Lots of demand  :ROFL!:

----------


## RedDawn

Loving the first-page graph trolling all the other luxury car makers. Model 3 on track to become the best selling Mid Size luxury car in the US next quarter.

----------


## killramos

Record loss. Quelle Suprise.

----------


## Gman.45

I posted about this before on the forum here. The fund I have a large position with has been short on Tesla a long time, I invested after speaking at length with several others including one of the fund's managers. We'll see what happens the rest of the year. They wrote a position paper about Tesla and being short on them a year ago, it all still applies today, even more so.

The Vilas cap CEO has been in the media as early as Jan this year, being quoted as saying Tesla is doomed. I agree with him. They don't have enough assets to sell off, now a pending lawsuit for 2 bil (another one), and as stated, way to much overhead in new staff to cover themselves. Now with their best hope in fixing a lot of issues with the vehicles leaving...heh. My prof Sebastian Thrun at Stanford when I did distance learning there, was instrumental in creating the algos and everything else that went into this self driving tech, and he has a lot to say about how Tesla has operated (not good either). 


https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/411d8...f3eb64a579.pdf

Everyone interested in Tesla and their market position should read this. The final paragraph says it best...




> Tesla is mainly owned by growth investors with little experience or understanding of the capital intensity, or cyclicality, of the auto business. People defer purchases of cars in recessions, especially expensive cars. A hard lesson will be learned by the “trees can grow to the sky” crowd. 
> We are short Tesla and expect to make a substantial profit over the next few years.




I'll try very hard not to be smug with the friends who invested in Tesla and would never STFU about how perfect they were. Hell, I almost fell for it all too and as stated in another thread, nearly bought one myself, until I was convinced about how bad their financial position was, and how poorly their tech actually worked. Despite have a 'wicked fast" electrically propelled vehicle, at its core, it's a failure. The financial market conditions are another matter entirely, and even worse for Tesla.

There is a tiny spark of hope with Elon Musk being a true magician, I believe in him and his abilities, his ideas, and his ability to make them a reality. Even he has stated that Tesla is running on the very edge of financial sanity, and again, I've been convinced that smart odds are that even he can't save them from the reality of the market and the existing conditions.

Tesla has held on for longer than I thought, but I think this is probably the beginning of the end.

----------


## Chandler_Racing

> Who's shorting Tesla today? I want to but don't have the balls to.
> 
> Earnings announcement after market closes today. Should be fun.



I am could not resist. We will see how it does.

----------


## suntan

Down a few percent in after hours trading.

----------


## Gman.45

Tomorrow will be interesting. 

GL Chandler.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gman.45

Hah, nice catch Sugarphreak. Unreal. Again, with the 2 billion lawsuit news on top of everything else...after hours trading is down more as of now.

----------


## Darkane

> Been driving a P100D down here in the Bay Area. First time driving an AP2.5 car. Autopilot is still sketchy, annoying how a lot of Tesla owners claim it does way more than reality. Still can’t handle sharper turns properly. 
> 
> Works well on the freeway in the middle lanes. The side lanes it’s all over the place due to poor decision making when faced with lane merges and jogs. Sometimes it’ll track left line, sometimes right line so I look like a drunk driver. 
> 
> Almost feel like AP1 is better, but it’s been a while since I drove an AP1 car.



Well yeah, 9000rpm bro.

----------


## Gman.45

Drive safe in that thing Rage2. What version of the software does it have, and what's it like to floor/launch that thing?

Stories like this aren't helping Tesla's cause, down 8.10 % in pre market trading this morning.

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/tesla...20180503-00986

----------


## killramos

That’s just Musk treating Wall Street like it treats everyone else.

Amazing he is still allowed to run a Public company. Guy is acting like Steve jobs before he got fired.

----------


## suntan

Down 7% this morning.

Should I buy some?

----------


## rage2

> Drive safe in that thing Rage2. What version of the software does it have, and what's it like to floor/launch that thing?



Just like every other P model Tesla I've driven, it's pretty awesome in the city. Unreal acceleration, pushes through gaps that you can't make in any other ICE car. At highway speeds it's no different than say an E63 or any other 500-600hp sedan.

The car I'm driving is pretty new, delivered in April, but lots of small problems with the car. Panel gaps are brutal (but the owner doesn't care or noticed), basically from the top of the trunk to the bottom the gaps are different in 5 different places. The driver's seat isn't fully secured (owner noticed this) so under accel and brake you can feel the seat move a few mm. Also a bunch of stuff is broken, summons and self parking being the 2 big ones (owner noticed). It worked on day 1 and has been broken since. Owner still loves the car though so that's all that matters. He picked up a Model X and a Model S last month based on my recommendation.

Pics of panel gaps:



I also saw a couple 3's down here and they're even worse.

I also had a chance to drive a Bolt, again one of my recommendations to a co-worker. That is a solid solid EV that feels like driving a normal car. City driving, tons of zip, feels like a GTI darting through traffic. With incentives, huge bang for the buck. $35k msrp, dealer discounted to $26k, $10k cali incentives, $1k pg&e incentives, $15k purchase price. No other car can touch it at $15k. It's too bad it sells for $50k in Alberta and totally not worth the money. It's also too bad GM doesn't care to make more than demand as it's purely a compliance car that doesn't make them any money.




> Down 7% this morning.
> 
> Should I buy some?



I wouldn't. I got out of my position at 320ish and don't see it getting there again for quite some time.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Saw an electric Focus yesterday. Looks like msrp of 35k. Anyone have thoughts on those? The Focus is a decent ICE car, can't imagine any major problems with the electric version. 

Wife and I were talking yesterday about how an electric vehicle would suit our needs really well.

----------


## rage2

Went through the 8k filing yesterday, here's what I can see. Please correct any mistakes as I did this on an iPad in bed haha.

- Burnt off ZEV credit sales. Typically in Q3/Q4. This year in Q1. I would interpret this on trying to round up as much cash as possible.

- Every Model 3 sold is a money loser, -20% gross margin. Supposed to break even in Q2, and hit their targeted 25% gross margin in Q3 when ramp up is complete. It's a money loser right now because line is running under capacity.

- Tesla gross margin calculations is misleading, nothing new here been brought up multiple times in this thread. They don't include R&D or other costs into the calculation, which is why they keep losing money with their S/X 20%+ gross margins. Looks profitable on paper, but it's not.

- Q1 cash burn was higher than the $650m reported by Tesla. That's just capex specific cash burn. Actual cash burn is around $1b to $1.2b.

- Revenues went up and beat expectations, but they also changed the way they book leases. It's all booked up front now, which is odd, and inflates the numbers a bit.

From the conference call, which I only heard a small part:

Fremont is out of space. Tesla needed 10k/week and their current Model 3 line is only able to do 5k a week at capacity (they're currently at 2400ish/week). Model Y won't be built here, zero space. Saw this coming from page 1.

----------


## Gman.45

Pretty solid Rage2. Enjoy reading your posts regarding cars and finance.




> It worked on day 1 and has been broken since. Owner still loves the car though so that's all that matters. He picked up a Model X and a Model S last month based on my recommendation.



See, this is what had me so torn for months over picking one up. I went through a lot of agonizing regarding spending over 6 figures for the first time on a vehicle. I truly don't WANT Tesla to fail, as stated I love Elon Musk's ideas, everything under his umbrella, and what he's done with SpaceX after telling the Russians to fuck off, literally, and storming out of a meeting with them to buy their rockets back over a decade ago...my kind of businessman, faults and all.

If by some miracle Tesla succeeds in the next 5 years, I'll absolutely reconsider going with their flagship car whatever it is then, if it exists, and their major issues are mostly dealt with.

Until then, still going to be short on Tesla, as my fund's manager and owner has convinced me. It's a pretty large position, and not the only company in their fund/strategy, but I've done better with them than my uncle and long time finance adviser, who has most of my portfolio in pretty safe funds - one has AMD as part of the 10 companies in its fund, that's the only "risky" thing in those investments. I do believe the $ I have with Vilas, about the same amount our new Lexus LC500 cost (not the hybrid either), will eventually pay for our LC500 within the next 12 months, and that will be in large part due to the Tesla short position they hold.

Time will tell, very interesting reading through this thread from start to finish this AM. Lots of intelligent and interesting people here on Beyond (and the opposite, a category I for the most part will fall into). Not many sites last 10 years, let alone have 20 in their crosshairs.

Good times.

----------


## Buster

Are R+D costs normally rolled into COGS for auto-makers, impacting the GP?

----------


## rage2

> Are R+D costs normally rolled into COGS for auto-makers, impacting the GP?



Yes.

----------


## rage2

> Pretty solid Rage2. Enjoy reading your posts regarding cars and finance.
> 
> See, this is what had me so torn for months over picking one up. I went through a lot of agonizing regarding spending over 6 figures for the first time on a vehicle.



I do like the Model S P cars. It’s a lot of fun to zip around in the city. I just don’t like the value for the dollar, and the challenges for our multiple road trips every year. Ignoring the road trips, value for dollar is the show stopper for me. P100D well optioned at $130k, I’d be ordering up one right now.

----------


## killramos

> I do like the Model S P cars. Its a lot of fun to zip around in the city. I just dont like the value for the dollar, and the challenges for our multiple road trips every year. Ignoring the road trips, value for dollar is the show stopper for me. P100D well optioned at $130k, Id be ordering up one right now.



200k puts a lot of excellent cars in the the ballpark thats for sure.

Maybe one day, Im looking forward to the Porsche competitor.

I really wanted the i5 to be good but Im pretty sure that car is never coming out.

----------


## Buster

> Yes.



Interesting. That must be a historical convention for the industry.

----------


## Xtrema

> Been driving a P100D down here in the Bay Area. First time driving an AP2.5 car. Autopilot is still sketchy, annoying how a lot of Tesla owners claim it does way more than reality. Still cant handle sharper turns properly.



Was just in the Bay Area last week. Given range anxiety I got with a Tesla last time, go back to fossil burner C300 vert this time. Didn't regret it one bit.

Did highway 17 multiple times without worry about charging is a bonus.

----------


## rage2

> 200k puts a lot of excellent cars in the the ballpark that’s for sure.



Even if you're not looking top model and DGAF about performance, let's say a lowly basic 75D with minimal options. Compared to the E wagon I just picked up, the E wagon is WAY more luxurious, and is $30k (26%) cheaper. Even bigger price gap when comparing the sedan.

----------


## killramos

It’s definitely a struggle, if you want to give electric a try you either drop real money or end up with an econobox and still drop a bunch of money.

I got in an argument with an in law about the whole debate. She had her head so far in the sand she was trying to convince me a Nissan Leaf was like 20 grand new. Looked it up later and it’s 35 to start, a full 15 grand more than the gas equivalent. Same result across the board with e-golf, bolt etc. She refused to admit that driving an electric car was a lifestyle choice and instead was convinced it was a good financial decision.

I also really don’t like the i3. I couldn’t find a seating position where I could see the dashboard. Hoping the Porsche Mission E or one of its variants is good. But I doubt I can afford one so we are back to square 1. 

Oh yea and Tesla as a Corp sucks (to stay on topic)

----------


## rage2

> It’s definitely a struggle, if you want to give electric a try you either drop real money or end up with an econobox and still drop a bunch of money.
> 
> I got in an argument with an in law about the whole debate. She had her head so far in the sand she was trying to convince me a Nissan Leaf was like 20 grand new. Looked it up later and it’s 35 to start, a full 15 grand more than the gas equivalent. Same result across the board with e-golf, bolt etc. She refused to admit that driving an electric car was a lifestyle choice and instead was convinced it was a good financial decision.



Incentives are the key. The Bolt example I gave in California, you end up with a $15k Bolt that is actually competitive in terms of ICE offerings. We have zero incentives here in Alberta.

That's where the problem is today, we have to subsidize EVs for it to make sense from both a manufacturer's perspective and an end user's perspective. That's not expected to change for another 10 years until EV vs ICE drivetrain costs equalize in the mid luxury market. Who knows how long before entry level costs equalize.

----------


## killramos

I’m not suggesting I want EV’s incentivized. I want them to stand on their own as a compelling product.

----------


## rage2

> I’m not suggesting I want EV’s incentivized. I want them to stand on their own as a compelling product.



Yea it needs to be able to stand on it's own without incentives to really top over to critical mass. This is why most auto manufacturers are behind Tesla and slowly transitioning into EVs, and not because Tesla is smarter than everyone else. Every manufacturer is targeting 2020 for any meaningful EVs into their lineup as that's when the price gap is much smaller in the mid luxury market that can be masked by incentives.




> Interesting. That must be a historical convention for the industry.



Yea, no clue why this is only done in automotive finance. Everywhere else R&D is OpEx and not COGS.

----------


## realazy

> Yea, no clue why this is only done in automotive finance. Everywhere else R&D is OpEx and not COGS.



Pretty sure this is the difference between IFRS and US GAAP.

----------


## Xtrema

> I’m not suggesting I want EV’s incentivized. I want them to stand on their own as a compelling product.



Well, if any manufacturer wants to play in China, they need to build an EV and build them quick.

So they and along with other European policies may advance us toward better and cheaper products.

North America will not lead this EV evolution.

----------


## rage2

> Pretty sure this is the difference between IFRS and US GAAP.



Not sure about that one. If I remember right, you can go either way based on the rules, and R&D is OpEx for everyone except for automotive, where they roll it into COGS. This is the case with all major manufacturers in the US, Japan and Europe. This is done because automotive R&D is very targeted towards the lifecycle of a model/generation and it makes it more clear to gauge actual gross margins. Tesla is the only exception that I'm aware of.

Disclaimer: I'm not a finance guy.

----------


## rage2

> Time will tell, very interesting reading through this thread from start to finish this AM.



I started reading through the thread from page 1 last night, and surprised how accurate my comments were from 5 years ago in regards to Tesla's future challenges haha. Totally patting myself on the back here.

----------


## Gestalt

Evs are simply necessity going foreward. They are at leasy twice as efficient and easily offer double the mileage.

Governments will simply have to mandate that say 50% of new vehicle slaes must be ev or plug in hybrid, and manufactueres will have to price gas cars higher to subsidize affordable ev pricing until they can make enough volume to drop pricing naturaly.

----------


## killramos



----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Disagree; Government should stay out of our private lives and stick to trying to fixing their own corrupt debt ridden system
> 
> When you have a problem you don't put the biggest idiot in the house in charge, you offer incentives for others to come up with solutions



environmental concerns are not private lives, its a fact of life with 7 billion on the planets, and manageing it cant be left in the hands of the greediest profit by polluting crowd.

Sometimes, doing the right thing costs money, but it has to be done at any cost.

----------


## Darell_n

> environmental concerns are not private lives, its a fact of life with 7 billion on the planets, and manageing it cant be left in the hands of the greediest profit by polluting crowd.
> 
> Sometimes, doing the right thing costs money, but it has to be done at any cost.



Like removing 3 or 4 billion people from the planet?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I don't care so much about money or doing the right thing, but the government has no right to mandate what kind of car I drive



haha, what planet do you live on? of course they can and DO tell you what you can and cant drive, and the hoops oyu need to jump through TO drive.

It's just how it is many countries have announced getting rid of gassers.

You could own slaves once, now you cant. you could own machine guns once, now you cant, yo could club a woman and drag her to your layer, now you cant, you could settle a disagreement with a gun fight now oyu cant. You could dump your used motor oil behind your shop, now you cant.

its all regulated, because people are stupid animals. I mean they had to make a law to tell people they couldn't have sex with there sister.  :ROFL!: 

and now they have to tell people to stop polluting because they are changing the weather for the worse.  :crazy nut:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Buy back the hummer

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Then buy a full sized one this time.

Combined city and highway for my AMG over the 6,000km I have driven it has been 17L/100. Good chunk highway.  :ROFL!: 

I’m practically a Tesla owner, I plan my week around fillups.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Owning people doesn't seem like something you can compare to having a choice of vehicle
> 
> My next car is going to be awful on gas.... by design!



We have a deposit on a model 3, but I scour the autotrader out east daily for a good deal on an all electric, or a plug in hybrid that has minimum 80km range.

The reason is not to be cool or a rebel, i hate being reliant on and a victim of crooks. when I see gas at $1.35 in calgary, and that i am funding the second dirtiest industry on earth, it makes me more anxious to buy an electric that I can refuel at home, at less then 1/4 the cost. in my case I will evetually have enough solar to charge it on my own.

The other thing is being wasteful and ineficient goes against every core of my being. I cant stand ineficiency. the whole concept of do less with more is just backwards lol.

Cars are for commuting for 99.9% of people. The odd nut job that thinks commuting in rush hour is pleasurable should have no bearing on policy.

- - - Updated - - -




> I don't drive enough to use fuel like it is going out of style
> 
> What I really need is a blowtorch or something to burn off gasoline faster... if only I knew of a hypocritical electric car company that sold blow torches as a gimmick
> 
> 
> EDIT: Fuck I hate Musk... apparently his blow torch is just a 30$ propane roofing torches routed through a plastic gun case. Even his gimmicks are gimmicky



jealousy, she's a bitch. thats just ego though. you can get help for that.

----------


## speedog

> The reason is not to be cool or a rebel, i hate being reliant on and a victim of crooks. when I see gas at $1.35 in calgary, and that i am funding the second dirtiest industry on earth, it makes me more anxious to buy an electric that I can refuel at home, at less then 1/4 the cost. in my case I will evetually have enough solar to charge it on my own.



So will you stop using all types of plastics and driving on paved roads because those things just so happen to be funding that same second dirtiest industry on earth as well. There's also a plethora of products made from O&G byproducts that I'm not mentioning that you regularly use in your daily life - will you cease and desist with these products as well?

If you're going to take a stand because of your principles then either go all the way or none at all, to go only part way and then crow about it is just being so hypocritical.

----------


## rage2

> The other thing is being wasteful and ineficient goes against every core of my being. I cant stand ineficiency. the whole concept of do less with more is just backwards lol.



Well in Alberta, you’re just shifting the inefficiency elsewhere. Maybe not in your case depending on how much solar you’re using but for most people it’s shifted upstream. Electricity generation here is in the 30% range for efficiency similar to an ICE. Then there’s transmission losses of around 15% to your door, then another 20% loss in charging. If you don’t drive much, there’s more losses in battery storage. 

It’s all a balancing act. Gasoline is easy to transport, offers much higher energy density, and suffers no energy loss in storage. It’s a more efficient medium from a consumers point of view. ICEs these days are as efficient if not more efficient than electricity generation from fossil fuels.

----------


## Gestalt

> So will you stop using all types of plastics and driving on paved roads because those things just so happen to be funding that same second dirtiest industry on earth as well. There's also a plethora of products made from O&G byproducts that I'm not mentioning that you regularly use in your daily life - will you cease and desist with these products as well?
> 
> If you're going to take a stand because of your principles then either go all the way or none at all, to go only part way and then crow about it is just being so hypocritical.



Hey, grade 3, the all or nothing argument is stale. no, i wont quit using my cell phone, my computer, no i wont go live off the land on some mountain top. Society was designed and force on us this way, and we will eventually change it. Currently, the all or nothing argument is used by the braindead. Obviously we cant go to zero, but we can easily cut it in half as an immediate start.

----------


## Gestalt

> Well in Alberta, you’re just shifting the inefficiency elsewhere. Maybe not in your case depending on how much solar you’re using but for most people it’s shifted upstream. Electricity generation here is in the 30% range for efficiency similar to an ICE. Then there’s transmission losses of around 15% to your door, then another 20% loss in charging. If you don’t drive much, there’s more losses in battery storage. 
> 
> It’s all a balancing act. Gasoline is easy to transport, offers much higher energy density, and suffers no energy loss in storage. It’s a more efficient medium from a consumers point of view. ICEs these days are as efficient if not more efficient than electricity generation from fossil fuels.



what is the efficiency in producing a gallon of gas from tarsand?

Absolutely, but its only a matter of will right now. From what i read when I started the soalr challenge was that albertas overal efficeincy is 38 % and our transmition efficiency is 92%. On our residnce, we pay an extra 0.02 for 100% green generation it seriously an extra $20 a month. efficiency sucks, but it can only get better

Falling back on the same old crutch will never heal a leg.

----------


## Gestalt

God bless the chinese. this is what soldiers should be doing. planting enough trees to cover south carolina, or utah

https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/...jing-pollution

----------


## rage2

> what is the efficiency in producing a gallon of gas from tarsand?



Well if you want to go that far back, probably the same for producing the fossil fuels required for electricity generation. 




> Falling back on the same old crutch will never heal a leg.



I don’t think anyone is arguing that. You can’t flip a switch overnight and turn off gasoline and diesel vehicles. When the economics and usability are right, the transition will be natural.

----------


## Gestalt

> Well if you want to go that far back, probably the same for producing the fossil fuels required for electricity generation. 
> 
> 
> I dont think anyone is arguing that. You cant flip a switch overnight and turn off gasoline and diesel vehicles. When the economics and usability are right, the transition will be natural.



Cant let profit decide. Theyll keep milking the same cow as long as its the easy way to a dollar. Greed is a bitch.

We dont have to cut it off but we can easily cut it in half within a year or 2.

----------


## rage2

> Cant let profit decide. Theyll keep milking the same cow as long as its the easy way to a dollar. Greed is a bitch.
> 
> We dont have to cut it off but we can easily cut it in half within a year or 2.



It’s not about profit. It’s the fact that electric cars manufacturing costs are much higher than ICE cars. Even if you sell cars at break even, you’re literally pricing a significant amount of people out of cars. 

Tesla is selling cars at a loss and it’s still too expensive lol.

----------


## Gestalt

> It’s not about profit. It’s the fact that electric cars manufacturing costs are much higher than ICE cars. Even if you sell cars at break even, you’re literally pricing a significant amount of people out of cars. 
> 
> Tesla is selling cars at a loss and it’s still too expensive lol.



Profit i was more refering to the pay to pollute oil indsutry. 
Car though Thats just volume. India and china are doing it. Or like i sugessted before tack on 50% to gas guzzlers pass it to evs or plug in hybrids.

Then create jobs by building a couple billion wats of solar and wind to alberta this year

----------


## ercchry

> Then buy a full sized one this time.
> 
> Combined city and highway for my AMG over the 6,000km I have driven it has been 17L/100. Good chunk highway. 
> 
> I’m practically a Tesla owner, I plan my week around fillups.



Damn! The M does about that... but like 90% city... saw around 10L/100kms once on the highway when I got stuck in traffic when there was a blizzard  :ROFL!:

----------


## Darkane

> Well in Alberta, youre just shifting the inefficiency elsewhere. Maybe not in your case depending on how much solar youre using but for most people its shifted upstream. Electricity generation here is in the 30% range for efficiency similar to an ICE. Then theres transmission losses of around 15% to your door, then another 20% loss in charging. If you dont drive much, theres more losses in battery storage. 
> 
> Its all a balancing act. Gasoline is easy to transport, offers much higher energy density, and suffers no energy loss in storage. Its a more efficient medium from a consumers point of view. ICEs these days are as efficient if not more efficient than electricity generation from fossil fuels.




Combined cycle power generation can get up to 60%. GE has the record for combined efficiency of over 62%. 

Its quite reasonable. Cheap gas as the fuel, or better yet digester gas (waste products gases), or landfill gas. 

Both of those can be blended with natural gas and indirectly (not really measurable) increase efficiency even more. 


Dont get me wrong, electric cars are still not a god send for consumption or pollution, but are better. 

Im an O&G guy so Id rather the inevitable sort of ease its way into society with mild hybrids. Not full out EVs. Thats not realistic.

----------


## benyl

changing the world!

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/15/tech...deo/index.html

----------


## Darell_n

> changing the world!
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/15/tech...deo/index.html



Toyota already towed the 292,000 lb Space Shuttle. An 80hp tractor could have done it at idle.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> changing the world!
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/15/tech...deo/index.html



Tesla does a thing that has been previously accomplished by a large, strong person, media immediately fellates them.

----------


## ercchry

> Toyota already towed the 292,000 lb Space Shuttle. An 80hp tractor could have done it at idle.



dont "strong men" often do that too?  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

If we're going to be impressed at the towing, test it to SAE J2807 standards like everyone else and publish that capability.

----------


## rage2

> If we're going to be impressed at the towing, test it to SAE J2807 standards like everyone else and publish that capability.



There's probably more important standardized tests they should test against first, maybe something as important as say AEB Euro NCAP tests. With how many rear end accidents happening lately at full speed without AEB doing anything, probably a good idea not to test with them just yet.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

Models 3 has longer stop distance than F150.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/22/...-promises-fix/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

You should read the Edmunds long term review. That one is comically brutal.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...erm-road-test/

----------


## Xtrema

So who is going to pick up the pieces when Elon runs out of cash after the summer/fall?

Apple? Tencent? pennies on the dollar?

----------


## killramos

Ford, when they realize the future needs a line of smaller cars  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> Ford, when they realize the future needs a line of smaller cars



With what? 

I think Apple should be a good match. Tesla users and Apple users are basically the same. Both love propitiatory standards that doesn't share with the rest of industry. Both operate in a my way or the highway mentality. If Apple can acquire it for $20-$30B, they have enough cash to keep Tesla around to finish all planned future projects (which estimate to cost $10B).

Apple gain all the cars that will double as datapoints for Apple Maps to improve it, plus all the data that Tesla has collected so far for Apple's own autonomous car initiatives and it may actually help Elon out to finally catch up on the autonomous race.

The user base will be just as loyal.

What else is Apple going to do with $280B burning in their pocket.

----------


## rage2

There is so much liability in purchasing Tesla prior to a bankruptcy thanks to the overpromise to their customers. Nobody's going to touch Tesla unless all those liabilities are wiped off the books, which means post bankruptcy. If I was Apple, I'd buy the remnants of Tesla for the IP, partner with someone like Magna Steyr for redesign and production to address all the quality issues, integrate their self driving stack, and sell it as the Apple Car. Provide legacy Tesla owners support at a fair cost to keep early adopters happy, but essentially EOL the existing products. Apple tried to build their own cars, but recognized the problems and lack of experience right off the bat, cancelled the car project, and solely focused on self driving technologies.

Really, that's what Tesla should've done from the start, leverage and outsource design and production to someone that knows WTF they're doing and actually make money. Once the S/X were successful, then take all the lessons learnt with your partner, design the 3 with them, and roll out production of the 3 that way in your own lines at Fremont. Model Y? Take all those lessons, and design/production all in house. Not enough capital to build another production line? Leverage and outsource again. That's how you scale up without running out of money, and running into non stop problems.

This is how even the big manufactures do things. When there's a lack of production capacity, guys like Magna Steyr fill the gap and build cars for manufacturers. You have to be absolutely insane to invest billions in new production lines during ramp up of new models. Take a look at the cars that they've built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr

Of course, Tesla won't do that. They need to disrupt!

----------


## killramos

Tesla really did essentially throw away what amounted to infinite demand for their Products. I don’t think if I went to try and buy one today there are any stock of any of the 3 models. Regardless of price.

Trying to sell cars to poor people is what broke them.

As for with what? Ford could easily buy Tesla out of bankruptcy, they would have no issue raising capital.

You don’t actually need a money pile to buy a company.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Of course, Tesla won't do that. They need to disrupt!




You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs Rage!

----------


## Xtrema

> As for with what? Ford could easily buy Tesla out of bankruptcy, they would have no issue raising capital.
> 
> You don’t actually need a money pile to buy a company.



Their share holders already lost their mind on the no cars in NA decision.


Although like Bill Ford said, it's just bad press/fake news.

----------


## killramos

All the more reason to sell Tesla’s as their small cars division.

----------


## benyl

> Trying to sell cars to poor people is what broke them.



Not really. Their attempt to break with 100 years of innovation by trying to invent a new way to build a car is what broke them.

Trying a new way to start up a production line on your volume car with small margins isn't a good gamble. They tried to save time and money on the 3. They gambled and lost.

All these "geniuses" fuck up from time to time. Jobs project "Lisa" was a massive fail. Model 3 is a massive fail for Musk. What you going to do?

----------


## killramos

> Not really. Their attempt to break with 100 years of innovation by trying to invent a new way to build a car is what broke them.



Potatoe potahtoe

They probably could have been a successful company selling a few thousand 200 thousand dollar electric halo cars a year.

Tesla’s only have cool factor because they are new, rare, and unattainable.

Model 3 destroys all that aside from newness. But that has been eroding all on its own.

----------


## Buster

Teslas of any kind have not been "cool" for a long, long time.

----------


## rage2

> Teslas of any kind have not been "cool" for a long, long time.



Clearly you haven't been to Bay Area lately.

----------


## killramos

I barely saw more there last August than you see here. But I stayed in SF proper for the most part.

----------


## Xtrema

> I barely saw more there last August than you see here. But I stayed in SF proper for the most part.




Doesn't matter, when I was there last Oct, I have seen 1 Model 3 at the supercharger. This time in Apr, I saw at least 20 on the road in a week.

Model S is still dominant Tesla tho. Surprisingly, I have seen more 3s than Xs. But for the month of Apr, they deliver more 3s than BMW 3 or Merc C series in California. So that probably make sense.

It's not hard to spot at least 5-6 Teslas daily in Bay area.

----------


## HiTempguy1

I see multiples of them on H2 on my commute into Edmonton. Last year, basically saw none.

----------


## killramos

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/musk-sug...esla-1.1081874

Ahh shucks, he caught us.




> *Musk suggests Big Oil is behind critical media coverage of Tesla*
> 
> First it was Wall Street analysts. Then, short sellers, and then the United Auto Workers. Now, the media is the subject of billionaire Elon Musk’s ire.
> Journalists are critical of electric-car maker Tesla Inc. because oil and traditional auto companies are some of the biggest advertising spenders, the chief executive officer wrote in a flurry of tweets Wednesday afternoon. The public no longer respects the media because of “holier-than-thou hypocrisy” and lies, he said.
> Musk, 46, was riled by a Robert W. Baird analyst report that said “increasingly immaterial” headlines were dominating Tesla news cycles. The first of his tweets spurred reactions from several journalists who compared Musk with President Donald Trump.



But don’t worry, Musk is going to make his own news source so people can’t be critical of him anymore  :ROFL!:

----------


## benyl



----------


## RedDawn

> https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/musk-sug...esla-1.1081874
> 
> Ahh shucks, he caught us.
> 
> 
> 
> But don’t worry, Musk is going to make his own news source so people can’t be critical of him anymore



....except he's not lying about this. The biggest O&G player in the US has been intentionally working to undermine him since 2016 and it's working on rubes like you.

https://jalopnik.com/koch-brothers-t...c-v-1760127883

----------


## lasimmon

nm

----------


## killramos

You quote a an opinion piece about a huffpo article about the Koch brothers and call me a rube in the same sentence?

And over what amounts to 60 seconds of a super bowl commercial time per year (in advertising dollars)?

Yea that’s why everyone is growing critical of Tesla  :ROFL!:

----------


## RedDawn

> You quote a an opinion piece about a huffpo article about the Koch brothers and call me a rube in the same sentence?
> 
> And over what amounts to 60 seconds of a super bowl commercial time per year (in advertising dollars)?
> 
> Yea that’s why everyone is growing critical of Tesla



The Kochs have publicly admitted this is their goal so the publishing source of the admission is irrelevant. You can look it up directly on Koch created websites if you don't like huffpo. 

They spend half that on climate change denial and that got them the President tweeting about how climate change is a hoax.

----------


## npham

None of that would matter if they could hit their targets(production, QC, etc) or meet their budgets. They had a winner on their hands and squandered it away. Now they will be lucky to last to the end of 2018 at the rate they are blowing through cash.

----------


## rage2

Welcome back RedDawn.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> The Kochs have publicly admitted this is their goal so the publishing source of the admission is irrelevant. You can look it up directly on Koch created websites if you don't like huffpo. 
> 
> They spend half that on climate change denial and that got them the President tweeting about how climate change is a hoax.



Is Toma back here now that the Gestroll account is played out?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> Clearly you haven't been to Bay Area lately.



I didn't say anything about popularity...haha

----------


## Gestalt

No way!!! Dirty oil industry would never be dishonest, buy politicians, start wars.

 :Pooosie:   :ROFL!: 

Second dirtiest industy on earth. Thats facts for you.

----------


## ercchry

> No way!!! Dirty oil industry would never be dishonest, buy politicians, start wars.
> 
>  
> 
> Second dirtiest industy on earth. Thats facts for you.



First being mining for heavy metals... for batteries?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

> First being mining for heavy metals... for batteries?



According to oil industry, YES untill they convert and then it will be a godesnd.  :ROFL!:

----------


## themack89

hey my thread is still going. sweet.

----------


## rage2

I haven’t been posting updates on the latest Tesla crashes, mostly because it’s the same shit. Here’s a new one from a Tesla fan who’s been covering driving his Model 3 across Europe. Looks to be the same autopilot problem of driving into barriers, except he survives to talk about it. 

https://www.facebook.com/tsla3/posts/942377245933745

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## themack89

> Hey welcome back! I was wondering what happened to you!



I had to depart, spend time in the world... and now I have emerged into adulthood! (even bought a house! no wife/kids yet though haha)

How you been keeping?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## themack89

> Congrats on the house, where did you end up buying?
> 
> I got laid off, took a semester of a degree program, got bored with that and picked up 2 contracting jobs, then quit those jobs, sold my house, got a new job in Van, bought a nice new place there, quit my new job in Van, went back to school for a bit, came back to Calgary for short term contract, going back to Van to start another degree program in the fall... I think that is it.



Bought in Hawkwood.. *fingers crossed* It's in a quiet culdesac though, nice sized yard in the back. Mega quiet which is what I wanted.

Sounds like you been busy lol. Which degree programs are you looking at?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/04/...l-3-preorders/

25% of pre-ordered Model 3 has been refunded.

----------


## blownz

> https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/04/...l-3-preorders/
> 
> 25% of pre-ordered Model 3 has been refunded.



I bet for a lot of people when they get the chance to buy they have to bail because they were only planning on buying a $35K car and the only way to get one was optioned to about $60K. That is significant enough to take a lot of people out.

----------


## Xtrema

> I bet for a lot of people when they get the chance to buy they have to bail because they were only planning on buying a $35K car and the only way to get one was optioned to about $60K. That is significant enough to take a lot of people out.



Still that $125M interest free loan for up to 2 years. I can't see anyone but Tesla can pull that off.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Musk just announce a model Y on twitter... initiate the hype fund raising machine!
> 
> It is like they don't even put effort into it anymore, haha



is that the front or back?

----------


## benyl

> Musk just announce a model Y on twitter... initiate the hype fund raising machine!
> 
> It is like they don't even put effort into it anymore, haha

----------


## Darell_n

> is that the front or back?



It’s the side. It will be shaped like a UFO and be omnidirectional with the interior rotating to always face forward.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> It’s the side. It will be shaped like a UFO and be omnidirectional with the interior rotating to always face forward.



Oh God I wish that was true. I would be stoked.

----------


## Xtrema

> Musk just announce a model Y on twitter... initiate the hype fund raising machine!
> 
> It is like they don't even put effort into it anymore, haha



At least this is just a jacked up Model 3, unless Elon gone bat shit again going against his people.

So pretty sure 80%-90% should be able to pull from Model 3 line. The question is how he's going to get the money to build new factories and pay back loans next year to accomplish this.

----------


## rage2

> So pretty sure 80%-90% should be able to pull from Model 3 line. The question is how he's going to get the money to build new factories and pay back loans next year to accomplish this.



That's the big question, but not just for the Y, applies to the 3 as well right now. There are currently 2 general assembly lines at Fremont for the 3 and Elon says they need 3 lines to get over 5000 cars a week. Fucked up because the original target was that each line can push 5000/week, 2 lines at their original 10k/week target. Now, not only will the Y need to be assembled at a different factory, but the 3 as well if they want to hit 10k/week.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> That's the big question, but not just for the Y, applies to the 3 as well right now. There are currently 2 general assembly lines at Fremont for the 3 and Elon says they need 3 lines to get over 5000 cars a week. Fucked up because the original target was that each line can push 5000/week, 2 lines at their original 10k/week target. Now, not only will the Y need to be assembled at a different factory, but the 3 as well if they want to hit 10k/week.



I swear I just read something this morning that they actually had implemented a third line already, but I can't find it right now.

Here it is I think:

http://business.financialpost.com/tr...-assembly-line



> One of the reasons for Musk’s assurance that Tesla is turning the corner on manufacturing is the addition of a third general assembly line that completes the process of putting together the Model 3. The company started building the third line about two weeks ago, and the initial cars are moving through “crazy fast,” he said.
> 
> “The biggest constraint on output is general assembly,” Musk said. “We can probably get to 5,000 a week with the current two general assembly lines. But with the third one, I’m highly confident that we can exceed 5,000 units per week.”

----------


## rage2

Must've missed the part that line 3 has started. Like I said, dig back to as recent as a year ago. The 2 line investment was supposed to hit 10k. The paint shop is also maxed out and I believe tough to get expansion because California.

----------


## kenny

China will back Tesla and in return Tesla will build their Mega factory in China. Build batteries there as well to save money since all that shit is mined there anyway. Burn and Churn! 

TSLA to $450 by 2020!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

NTSB preliminary report is out:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...eliminary.aspx

So just as I interpreted the Tesla press release, Tesla is misrepresenting what happened. Also interesting, even after a Tesla employee showed up to de-energize the battery, thing still reignited twice. Coles Notes: AP following car ahead. Decides to follow lane instead. No car ahead anymore, *accelerates* into barrier. Crazy shit.

----------


## supe

I was just having a conversation with a friend the other day about how cars have reached or nearly reached the theoretical limit of how fast cars can accelerate. So how can Musk possibly think he can do better. 

And just when you thought the hype machine would maybe slow down.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/09/elon-...ket-thrusters/

Who does this guy think he is... a rocket scientist??

----------


## rage2

> I was just having a conversation with a friend the other day about how cars have reached or nearly reached the theoretical limit of how fast cars can accelerate. So how can Musk possibly think he can do better. 
> 
> And just when you thought the hype machine would maybe slow down.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/06/09/elon-...ket-thrusters/
> 
> Who does this guy think he is... a rocket scientist??



It’s just too bad that he literally ripped off Bosch’s idea from last month. 

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/18/...lide-recovery/

Huge difference in changing the balance of a 500lb bike vs the trajectory of a 5000lb car. You do know why we can’t have jet powered cars on the road right? Watch the first 10 mins of Face/Off and you’ll get the idea, but we can all dream.

----------


## Disoblige

> https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/18/...lide-recovery/



On a sidenote, that's the first time I seen training wheels for motorcycles. I could totally see a market for new motorcyclists or track newbs in a closed environment for learning.
Someone should implement this idea, haha.

----------


## supe

> Its just too bad that he literally ripped off Boschs idea from last month. 
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/18/...lide-recovery/
> 
> Huge difference in changing the balance of a 500lb bike vs the trajectory of a 5000lb car. You do know why we cant have jet powered cars on the road right? Watch the first 10 mins of Face/Off and youll get the idea, but we can all dream.



This article was from May, Musk said he could get the roadster to 1.9 seconds in the base package meaning the upgraded version is even quicker. 1.9 seconds is already quicker than any production car ever made. So we'll never know for sure but I'm guessing he had these ideas for the "upgrades" at the roadster reveal in Nov 2017. How else do you make the fastest production car even quicker? 

I think jet powered cars are stupid, I think accelerating at speeds anywhere near these numbers is not practical, but its just a showcase of innovation.

----------


## supe

> It’s just too bad that he literally ripped off Bosch’s idea from last month.



Just found this goodie, so who ripped off who?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/932322853009080320

----------


## Xtrema

> I think jet powered cars are stupid, I think accelerating at speeds anywhere near these numbers is not practical, but its just a showcase of innovation.



It's hype.

Why would you turn a car that doesn't need any sort of fuel back to burning something?

Everyone is doing it now, say crazy shit, get headline, get investment coming in.

----------


## supe

> Why would you turn a car that doesn't need any sort of fuel back to burning something?




Its just compressed air. And unlike the bosch example its not a one time use.

----------


## Xtrema

> Its just compressed air. And unlike the bosch example its not a one time use.



Still doesn't make sense. How big of a tank you have to carry and how much force you could have added to the acceleration? Plus now you have to waste energy to refill the tank for the next boost?

Anyway, looks like Elon is serious now on keeping Tesla afloat, cutting 9% staff.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/06/12/tesla-job-cuts/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> This article was from May, Musk said he could get the roadster to 1.9 seconds in the base package meaning the upgraded version is even quicker. 1.9 seconds is already quicker than any production car ever made. So we'll never know for sure but I'm guessing he had these ideas for the "upgrades" at the roadster reveal in Nov 2017. How else do you make the fastest production car even quicker? 
> 
> I think jet powered cars are stupid, I think accelerating at speeds anywhere near these numbers is not practical, but its just a showcase of innovation.



Tesla has never missed a speed goal. Whoever thought a 5500 pound electri golfl cart would be crushing million $ supercars light to light. Whats the newest S doing? 2.4

Teslas mission was to change the industry and the world. Reshape the electeic image. And boy has he deliveres.

----------


## killramos

I have always believed that we never really tapped the potential of the external combustion engine for cars. Good on Elon.

----------


## rage2

> Teslas mission was to change the industry and the world. Reshape the electeic image. And boy has he deliveres.



There’s a lot of things I could reshape if someone gave me $500k an hour to burn. Guaranteed that I would deliveres.

----------


## Gestalt

> Theres a lot of things I could reshape if someone gave me $500k an hour to burn. Guaranteed that I would deliveres.



Right. Haha.

----------


## supe

> I have always believed that we never really tapped the potential of the external combustion engine for cars. Good on Elon.



Whats your point? Useless comment just like all the rest of yours in this thread.

----------


## killramos

> Whats your point? Useless comment just like all the rest of yours in this thread.



My point is that not only are rocket powered cars stupid, they aren’t even new.

Typical musk.

Too bad out of all the people he fired he didn’t fire the most important one, himself.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Whats your point? Useless comment just like all the rest of yours in this thread.



Can you identify a single post from any member in this thread that isn't useless? I thought that was the point of this thread.  :dunno:

----------


## supe

> Too bad out of all the people he fired he didn’t fire the most important one, himself.






> Can you identify a single post from any member in this thread that isn't useless? I thought that was the point of this thread.



Why would he fire himself, the stock is nearing all time highs, I'm pretty sure that is the point of this thread.

In the month of June the stock has moved 20% and shorts have lost $2 billion. I personally kind of like where this is going.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1J82OX

----------


## rage2

> In the month of June the stock has moved 20% and shorts have lost $2 billion compared to the $5 billion made in the month of March.



FTFY.  :Wink: 

It's a rollercoaster ride. A month's snapshot is completely useless.




> Anyway, looks like Elon is serious now on keeping Tesla afloat, cutting 9% staff.
> 
> https://www.autoblog.com/2018/06/12/tesla-job-cuts/



Insiders leaks are slowly coming out. Most of the cuts are on the SolarCity side, not a big deal, that shit needs to get cut pronto. Solar sales has completely stagnated. The remaining cuts are on the Model S/X side of things, not production line workers, but the people responsible for keeping the production line work going smoothly. So in theory, the mass layoffs shouldn't affect the Model 3 production gong show. This also means the employees @ Fremont per car produced is still 2x worse than when Fremont was run by GM at it's worst, and 3-4x worse than NUMMI at it's best, so nothing changes there.

----------


## Gestalt

> China will back Tesla and in return Tesla will build their Mega factory in China. Build batteries there as well to save money since all that shit is mined there anyway. Burn and Churn! 
> 
> TSLA to $450 by 2020!



It will be $450 before 2020 withiut china. Probably mid next year

----------


## benyl

> It will be $450 before 2020 withiut china. Probably mid next year



until the bubble bursts...

----------


## suntan

TSLA will be bankrupt by this time next year, or worth $4.50

----------


## Xtrema

> TSLA will be bankrupt by this time next year, or worth $4.50



I hope not but won't be surprised when you look at how many proper EVs are being released by real car manufacturers between now and 2020.

----------


## suntan

Yes, and they're all mega-expensive and have rather useless range.

It's almost like the laws of physics are getting in the way.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Yes, and they're all mega-expensive and have rather useless range.
> 
> It's almost like the laws of physics are getting in the way.



Now my boss told ne how the fysics work so mabe you should redd a book. And my wife did the maths on it so I know hes rite. Oils dead tesla changed the world to eletric

----------


## Gestalt

> TSLA will be bankrupt by this time next year, or worth $4.50



Want to pu $100 on it? Closest to actual wins?

----------


## speedog

> Yes, and they're all mega-expensive and have rather useless range.
> 
> It's almost like the laws of physics are getting in the way.



What you consider a not so useless EV range?

----------


## kJUMP

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/13/elon...sla-stock.html

----------


## suntan

> What you consider a not so useless EV range?



1000km.

----------


## speedog

> 1000km.



Crap, there's many ICE powered vehicles that don't have that range. Why such an unrealistic target for EV's when many ICE's can't do 1,000km on a fill.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Crap, there's many ICE powered vehicles that don't have that range. Why such an unrealistic target for EV's when many ICE's can't do 1,000km on a fill.



Agreed. Shit, range isn't the biggest problem for most people. 200kms would be totally sufficient for major market penetration. Particularly as charging infrastructure improves.

----------


## suntan

200km is useless. It means you’d barely make it to Banff. And then every car would have to recharge. Think about what that would take. 

Electricity is really quite straightforward. And that’s the problem. You’d need massive massive infrastructure upgrades to get this to work. I’m not even sure there’s enough copper in the world to do this. 

You want to charge your car in 15 minutes all the time??? You’d need a wire about 5 feet thick to every EV station. And copper isnt superconducting, so there’s line losses. 

Again, how is this going to work? You’re going to have solar panels (a gigantic, gigantic array far larger than anything out there) feed into batteries?? Well there’s a pile of loss right there. And then gigantic bundles of wires to the middle of town? More line losses. Yippee. Why this sounds totally feasible. 

Where the hell is all this lithium coming from?? The good thing about Lithium is it’s very common (it’s element number 3). The bad thing about Lithium is it’s very common. Extracting it is a pain in the ass. Look where it is on the periodic table. It’s useful as a battery because it’s so reactive. It also means that it’s always tightly bound to something (where’s all the free sodium ions??? Boom!!). And because it’s so tightly bound, you need a lot of energy to separate it. Why the hell do you think your laptop battery, which is actually like just 10 AA batteries plopped together, cost $100 for a nonshitty one?

----------


## speedog

So you toss out an unrealistic number, someone counters with a more realistic number and you go off on a completely different tangent. Yupp, that makes a lot of sense.

----------


## msommers

I agree that 1000km is excessive but a respectable 500km would be a great target.

Now that said, Suntan brings up a valid point, re: infrastructure. It should really make one wonder how environmentally friendly a pure solar-run world would be! Think about extracting raw metals and what is involved. I’ve been saying for a long time that it’s a shame the oil sands get such a bad rap because mining tailing ponds are, at best, just as destructive, and at worst, capable of wiping out towns forever. Now think of the demand surge of materials to make all that required infrastructure and you in turn have mining operations skyrocketing such that they make the oil sands a fart in the wind in terms of environmental footprint.

The aluminum tailing pond spill in Hungary a few years back is what these mining ponds are capable of upon failing.

----------


## Sugarphreak

..

----------


## rage2

Porsche is supposedly there with the Mission E, but until we see charging infrastructure more commonplace, it’ll be a bit of a chore.

Range isn’t a huge issue if the infrastructure is there. Hell, my HPF M3 had a range of 200km if I had fun, 300km if I drove easy. Road tripped to Portland and back with no issues driving like I do. All about the infrastructure.

----------


## Gestalt

> There is some new tech coming out that extracts lithium from tailings ponds. They say that the oil sands could actually be able to provide more lithium than all of the current operating mines. 
> 
> Would be funny to see the EV revolution running on batteries made from Oilsands mining operations. Lol
> 
> https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1416343
> 
> 
> 
> My Hummer would go 1000km's on a tank... too bad EV's can't compare to a Hummer when it comes to practicality, hahahaha
> ...



No hummer ever got 1000 km to a tank. Dont lie.

Average Albertan travels 23800 km a year. Thats 60 km a day. 

Any hybrid that got 150km to a charge would suit most people. For the rare chance you need more, splurge the 300 a month you hummer drivers would save on fuel a month and spend $19 on a rental for your banff getaway.

----------


## killramos

> Porsche is supposedly there with the Mission E, but until we see charging infrastructure more commonplace, it’ll be a bit of a chore.
> 
> Range isn’t a huge issue if the infrastructure is there. Hell, my HPF M3 had a range of 200km if I had fun, 300km if I drove easy. Road tripped to Portland and back with no issues driving like I do. All about the infrastructure.



The more I read about it the more I am excited by the mission E. I think they claim 400km of range in 15 minutes using their 800V charger? Awesome.

And the car isn’t ugly as sin like most EV’s.

----------


## rage2

> The more I read about it the more I am excited by the mission E. I think they claim 400km of range in 15 minutes using their 800V charger? Awesome.
> 
> And the car isn’t ugly as sin like most EV’s.



The problem is having to drive out of the way to get to a charger, I doubt Porsche will have them at every gas station overnight. Once you find one you'll have to fight for a spot. If you ever drive to BC, stop by at one of the Tesla Superchargers. When it's busy, it's a fucking gong show. Lots of Tesla drivers making the trek between BC and Calgary.

I don't think Tesla's are ugly, at least on the outside. Might be getting a bit long in the tooth and needs a refresh, but it looks good. The interior is what annoys me. It's a $80k car interior with a big touchscreen in a $200k car. It's improved a long ways from 3 years ago, but even in the P100D I was ripping around in last month which was a brand new car with the latest interior updates, it felt very lacking and out of place.

The Bolt is still my favorite EV to date. Inside and out.

----------


## killramos

I thought the S did get a refresh when they removed the pseudo grill form them last year to make them look like the 3. 

I really don’t like the look of the model S exterior at all, which is fine there are lots of cars I don’t like. The rear quarter kills it for me completely.

Porsche claims to have one at every dealer next year, so I guess the trek to Vancouver will involve a stop in Kelowna?

----------


## supe

Elon Musks boring company selected to build a tunnel for Chicago's airport. 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/busines...blue-line-cta/

Is it possible that hype can turn to buzz which turns into actual business.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I hope it can, that would be awesome.

----------


## rage2

> Elon Musks boring company selected to build a tunnel for Chicago's airport. 
> 
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/busines...blue-line-cta/
> 
> Is it possible that hype can turn to buzz which turns into actual business.



I'd choose Elon Musk too if he gave Calgary such a sweetheart deal. Chicago takes ZERO risk whatsoever. Not a dollar to Boring.

$1b in estimated costs, completely funded by Boring, operated by Boring, and all risk on Boring. How many years of service and how much demand do you need at $20 a ticket prices to break even on that? That doesn't even include operating costs, nor if Boring can actually cut costs down that much to meet the $1b estimated cost. Boring would have to cut tunneling costs down 20 fold to meet that target.

But hey, if by actual business you mean a company not pursuing profit but all about furthering the mission (aka burn other people's money), then yup, it's entirely possible that hype can turn to buzz which turns into actual business for Elon.

I just hope this isn't another let's disrupt a traditional tried and tested industry because I'm smarter than everyone else like auto manufacturing.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> I just hope this isn't another let's disrupt a traditional tried and tested industry because I'm smarter than everyone else like auto manufacturing.



Exactly what this is. Just another Musk ego trip where he assumes he knows better than everyone else ever involved in the industry.

----------


## Gestalt

> Exactly what this is. Just another Musk ego trip where he assumes he knows better than everyone else ever involved in the industry.



The way things are currently done, is the best smartest or most logical way?

That is truly a bizare belief.  :crazy nut:  we would never have got out of the horse and plow era if everyibe just gave up and thought like that.

----------


## HiTempguy1

Pretty sure I did the marth earlier in this thread.

Every working person in city limits switching to EV's in Calgary alone would decimate the grid and completely fuck everything. Fossil fuels are amazing because of their portability, ease of use, and ease of storage.

Even with all the advancements, electricity is nowhere near that level, and won't be for a while. Until charge times are under 10 minutes for a full charge, EV's will not have full market penetration like ICE does.

----------


## Xtrema

> I agree that 1000km is excessive but a respectable 500km would be a great target.
> 
> Now that said, Suntan brings up a valid point, re: infrastructure. It should really make one wonder how environmentally friendly a pure solar-run world would be! Think about extracting raw metals and what is involved. Ive been saying for a long time that its a shame the oil sands get such a bad rap because mining tailing ponds are, at best, just as destructive, and at worst, capable of wiping out towns forever. Now think of the demand surge of materials to make all that required infrastructure and you in turn have mining operations skyrocketing such that they make the oil sands a fart in the wind in terms of environmental footprint.
> 
> The aluminum tailing pond spill in Hungary a few years back is what these mining ponds are capable of upon failing.



I don't think range matters.

It's range/min of refuel matter.

If I can get 300km of highway driving in 10mins today with ICE, that's what EVs need to be held up to.

Again, Mission E seems to be there. The question is would the infrastructure follow it.

----------


## rage2

> The way things are currently done, is the best smartest or most logical way?



You're assuming that there has been zero progress or innovation in TBMs, which is wrong. Boring isn't even doing anything that different today. They're looking to saves costs literally by making smaller tunnels, and leveraging non union staff. Eventually, they'll automate it to save on more human costs.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> The way things are currently done, is the best smartest or most logical way?
> 
> That is truly a bizare belief.  we would never have got out of the horse and plow era if everyibe just gave up and thought like that.



Your assumption that TB tech is in some undeveloped backwards state and devoid of any meaningful progress is the really bizarre thing. Do you actually think TBM manufacturers aren't constantly working to make their product better and more efficient?

----------


## Gestalt

When the plow was invented it was considered the end all perfection of human achievement.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> When the plow was invented it was considered the end all perfection of human achievement.



Yes, that's absolutely something I'm sure you believe.

----------


## benyl

> Elon's assumption that car building tech is in some undeveloped backwards state and devoid of any meaningful progress is the really bizarre thing.



FTFY.

Oh wait, maybe 100 years of innovation actually has value.

----------


## Gestalt

> Yes, that's absolutely something I'm sure you believe.



You need to watch more learning channel .

Plow did more for civilization then almost anything. It was one of the cornerstones to where we are today.  :ROFL!:

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> You need to watch more learning channel .



Yes, I absolutely believe you got much of your education from The Learning Channel.

----------


## killramos

> Yes, I absolutely believe you got much of your education from The Learning Channel.



Isn’t that channel all about dwarves, teenage pregnancy, and chicks with dicks?

Sounds about right  :ROFL!:

----------


## supe

> I just hope this isn't another let's disrupt a traditional tried and tested industry because I'm smarter than everyone else like auto manufacturing.



Time will tell with Tesla, but the stock price says you're wrong. Tell me spaceX hasn't disrupted the space industry. And what about paypal with electronic payments.

See a trend?

----------


## rage2

> Time will tell with Tesla, but the stock price says you're wrong.



Where were you in March-May?  :dunno: 

Whichever side of the Tesla fence you're on, I think we've all concluded that the stock price makes no sense in a traditional sense.

----------


## Gestalt

Economic theury is very weak. 1/1000 of say climate change in its predoctive ability.

So when real world results constantly prove theory wrong, its time to improve the theory.

Tesla is a 1000$ stock.

----------


## rage2

> Economic theury is very weak. 1/1000 of say climate change in its predoctive ability.
> 
> So when real world results constantly prove theory wrong, its time to improve the theory.
> 
> Tesla is a 1000$ stock.



I love your passion. It's people like you that's helped me make enough money the last 2 years to pay for my new hybrid AMG because I could predict Tesla's stock ups and downs based on emotions and news articles.

Thanks!

----------


## benyl

> So when real world results constantly prove theory wrong, its time to improve the theory.
> 
> Tesla is a 1000$ stock.



Where is the prove?

There is nothing in Tesla's financials that support it being a $1K stock.

That is the same as saying a person is worth $250K per year in salary because he has great ideas and is working different than others, but only produces 1/4 of someone who gets paid $50K.

Tesla stock will be worth $1k when production and profits say it is worth $1K. Seems logical to me. But I know you will say I am wrong.

----------


## Gestalt

> I love your passion. It's people like you that's helped me make enough money the last 2 years to pay for my new hybrid AMG because I could predict Tesla's stock ups and downs based on emotions and news articles.
> 
> Thanks!



We did really well too starting about the prentice recession, but rolled it into new investments.

But congratulation on figuring out that hype and marketing is 90% of the stock market. Im not a Stock guy but this was helpful to me (ok. my wife). Look at the age of the first book on the list.

https://seekingalpha.com/amp/article...ket-psychology

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Tesla is maybe a 25$ stock.... mostly for the assets, but once those get picked off I wouldn't want to be holding any
> 
> 
> 
> Mine did.... read em' and weep 
> 
> Attachment 82344
> 
> I had a 102L tank, and like most cars it is easy to beat the Canadian window sticker rating by a touch, I averaged around 10L/100km on the highway... it was great, I could find the cheapest place between Vancouver and Calgary and fill up there! It was full time AWD, could handle much worse weather than an EV, and it had a truck box.
> ...



Still lying, no hummer ever got 1000k to a tank. go troll someone that doesnlt know anything about cars.

Edit. good lord man an V6 H3 is not a "hummer" that's a chick's SUV haha. Basically a 4 cylinder canyon.  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  But yeah, even so you have never actually got 1000km to a tank.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## Gestalt

> Attachment 82345



wow now that i reread that, its pretty bad. I'll go back an edit.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> It did, and I documented it somewhere on Beyond a long time ago... and that makes you wrong... victory is mine!
> 
> FYI: It was a 5 cylinder, not a v6 or a 4 cylinder.... so you know, wrong again twice 
> 
> My point stands, until an EV can beat a Hummer for range, they are not very impressive



ha no you didn't unless alberta has 1000km of straight downhill highway soomehere.

edit. not that i accept an h3 as a "hummer". It's a canyon, dressed up for the ladies. https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/...ught-driving/2

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Still lying, no hummer ever got 1000k to a tank. go troll someone that doesnlt know anything about cars.
> 
> Edit. good lord man an V6 H3 is not a "hummer" that's a chick's SUV haha. Basically a 4 cylinder canyon.



You didn't even know what kind of engine they came with, just like you don't know anything else you retard troll.

----------


## Gestalt

> You didn't even know what kind of engine they came with, just like you don't know anything else you retard troll.



Cayons came with 4 cylinder and even they couldnt get 1000km

Once again another useless post by JRSCOOLDUDE

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Vancouver to Calgary... repeated times. I even got ~1000km's when I put 35" tires, a massive bumper, and a lift on it. I credit the manual transmission and the super low torque of the I5 motor. 
> 
> As for it being a "ladies" truck, you are hardly the first hater I've run into 
> 
> I love when people hate on my Hummer, it just rolls right off like mud. I am smiling right now thinking about how hot under the blue-collar you are getting..._ "But but but, there is no way it got 1000km's, it's IMposSiBle!!!!!!"_
> 
> 'Attachment 82346



i dont get hot under the collar, except at work. I also know you didnt get 1000km ever.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

Highway fuel economy 10L/100km. Tank size 100L. 

Deerrrppp

----------


## Gestalt

> Highway fuel economy 10L/100km. Tank size 100L. 
> 
> Deerrrppp



never ever happened for anyone with a toy hummer. sorry. and pre 2015, the mielage ratings in canada were very optimisitic to begin with.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada...bers-1.1030890

----------


## supe

> I just hope this isn't another let's disrupt a traditional tried and tested industry because I'm smarter than everyone else like auto manufacturing.



You dodged my point, I'll just ask you directly, do you think Elon is not capable of disrupting yet another industry like he did with space and electronic payments?

----------


## killramos

> never ever happened for anyone with a toy hummer. sorry. and pre 2015, the mielage ratings in canada were very optimisitic to begin with.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada...bers-1.1030890



The only class of cars with excessively optimistic mileage ratings are EV’s  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> You dodged my point, I'll just ask you directly, do you think Elon is not capable of disrupting yet another industry like he did with space and electronic payments?



I don't know enough space industry to really comment there.

As for Paypal, you're giving Elon too much credit here. He actually didn't do anything at all for PayPal and was just in the right place at the right time to profit. He merged his online bank with his biggest competitor who had a product called Paypal, butted heads with others when trying to kill off Paypal, and eventually conceded he was wrong and forced to kill his own product to focus on Paypal. Elon was outed because he made the wrong call. Within 2 years, the guys that pushed him out had furthered Paypal, IPO'd and bought out by eBay. Elon got paid.

Mobile payments today has nothing to do with Paypal, especially in the early days when Elon was still involved. It was simply a service that allows anyone to accept Credit cards, back when it was really tough to have a merchant account. If anything, if Elon Musk had his way, we wouldn't even have Paypal today.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> If anything, if Elon Musk had his way, we wouldn't even have Paypal today.



How dare you speak that way about a titan of the modern industrial revolution.

----------


## Gestalt

> You dodged my point, I'll just ask you directly, do you think Elon is not capable of disrupting yet another industry like he did with space and electronic payments?



And electric cars. Slef made guy who lived of $30 a month for food in Claifornia starring out. And people post 'if I had his money i could build a better car company"

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Elon didn’t start Tesla. He funded it then took it over.

----------


## Gestalt

> Pretty sure he started Tesla when he was stupid rich
> 
> If I had that kind of money I could easily start my own car company... lol. 
> 
> 
> 
> I regularly beat the window sticker mileage on all of my cars when I am on the highway
> 
> Your baseless refute aside, EV's need to get better than gas vehicles to make up for the excessive charging time. So until they get 1000km+ or charge in 10 minutes, they are about as useful as an urban scooter.



another "I'm better thant Musk" haha. you kill me.

Musk is what? 50? Average age here? 30? You have 20 years to catch up to him and change the world yourself.. Stop posting nonsence, and get after it.

Edit. he's 46, made his first billion age 40. Lets go boys times ticking.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> He got lucky with a big payout by piggy packing on paypal



yes yes of course, serial luckster. lottery after lottery for him all chance

 :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!: 

jelousy is not flattering on you. I could do better, if only i was as lucky just rings trashy

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> another "I'm better thant Musk" haha. you kill me.
> 
> Musk is what? 50? Average age here? 30? You have 20 years to catch up to him and change the world yourself.. Stop posting nonsence, and get after it.
> 
> Edit. he's 46, made his first billion age 40. Lets go boys times ticking.



I could shit into a voice to text microphone and the result would be more intelligent that anything you've said here.

----------


## Gestalt

> I could shit into a voice to text microphone and the result would be more intelligent that anything you've said here.



You give yourself to many pats on the back.

Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Darell_n

> Double post, but I want to get back on topic
> 
> Vancouver just opened its first Hydrogen fuel station. I've been waiting a long while to see what I think will be the real future direction for cars starting to emerge. 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...uver-1.4709016
> 
> I've always said that Hydrogen makes a lot more sense as an energy storage medium compared with heavy metal batteries. Storage for hydrogen has become a lot safer, plus new process technologies are able to reduce the energy required to produce hydrogen; making it increasingly feasible as a fuel.
> 
> The mining of exotic metals is expensive and ridiculously bad for the environment, and worse is the unreliable and short range that it provides for vehicles. Reduced long term battery capacity, sensitivity to temperatures, and expensive replacement cost are other negatives when compared to hydrogen. Batteries are just a clumsy option for automotive purposes. 
> ...



Gasoline car gets in a serious accident = possible fire that burns part or all of the car over a few minutes.
Electric car gets in a serious accident = possible extremely hot fire that can spontaneously re-ignite numerous times over the next month
Hydrogen car gets in a serious accident = no fire, just a huge explosion that leaves a crater and possibly kills everybody near it. Can be started with a simple static charge and leaking fuel. Lol

Actually the problem will be the same as natural gas in that it takes cryogenic temperatures to liquify hydrogen. Highly compressed vapour doesn't even come close in capacity as the same in liquid form.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## HiTempguy1

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...omous-vehicles

Wow, I did not realize EV's were still so unprofitable. This, combined with Tesla starting to circle the drain.

Wonder if a glut of poorly designed and implemented EV's before their time will kill the industry for years to come?

----------


## rage2

> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...omous-vehicles
> 
> Wow, I did not realize EV's were still so unprofitable. This, combined with Tesla starting to circle the drain.
> 
> Wonder if a glut of poorly designed and implemented EV's before their time will kill the industry for years to come?



About 10 or so pages back, I had calculated when EVs would become profitable. Something like 2026 if battery costs continue it's rate of decline. Until then, every entry level EV will be either a money loser, or have shit range because of small battery. GM Bolt loses something like $10k/car for GM. High end EVs are the only segment where you can make money today but that's a tiny segment.

In other Tesla news, stock price has gone up quite a bit since the shareholder meeting. Missed out on that when Elon did a 360 and talked completely rationally like old Elon, and pushed the dream forward. I think Q2 will be another financial disaster for the company, they're building cars outdoors now to try to hit their 5k/week goal. Model 3 will still be negative margin, losing money for every one they sold. If I had more balls, I would be shorting them at the end of this month prior to their Q2 earnings. Elon Musk seems to be setting up excuses for a potential miss as well. Everyone is focused on the 5K/week target, when Elon says they need 10K/week for the Model 3 to be profitable (that could be misdirection I guess). Lots of bonds maturing in the next 8-9 months as well.

----------


## infamous

https://nypost.com/2018/06/20/tesla-...trade-secrets/

and now former employee's are taking trade secrets from Tesla and selling them.....

----------


## rage2

> https://nypost.com/2018/06/20/tesla-...trade-secrets/
> 
> and now former employee's are taking trade secrets from Tesla and selling them.....



Not sure he was selling them but it's pretty clear he was the source behind this businessinsider story: http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...factory-2018-5

----------


## googe

Process Technicians can’t code or hack. If they could, they’d be doing development, sysadmin, or security work. Lawsuit is a bit fishy. He probably leaked but it sounds like Musk is turning it into something bigger than it is.

----------


## rage2

> Why would he fire himself, the stock is nearing all time highs, I'm pretty sure that is the point of this thread.
> 
> In the month of June the stock has moved 20% and shorts have lost $2 billion. I personally kind of like where this is going.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1J82OX






> It's a rollercoaster ride. A month's snapshot is completely useless.



Shorts have made $2b this week alone if we want to play the snapshot game haha.




> The more I read about it the more I am excited by the mission E. I think they claim 400km of range in 15 minutes using their 800V charger? Awesome.



Learnt more about the Mission E aka Taycan.

Every Porsche dealership will have the fast chargers. No network planned at all for Canada, so the Taycan will most likely be a city or short range car only in the short term. Won't make it out to Kelowna in the winter for sure. In the US things are a little different, Dieselgate made VW invest in charging stations, so they'll be blanketing the US with $5b worth of chargers.

The big news is pricing, expect this to be priced between a Panamera and Cayenne. I'm told 600hp model is estimated at around $120k cdn. Arriving late next year.

I've put my name on the list for one. If the above is true, will be in an EV in a couple of years. Probably 2nd model year car to be safe.

----------


## killramos

Fucker. Price was my main concern, it looks awesome. At 120k its competitive with E63 imo, and way nicer than any Tesla. 

I promised myself another couple years with the C63 so I am very interested in what you think. Honestly 2-3 years timing for one of these to avoid early adopter tax and bugs could work or nicely. Especially now that I have a literal winter beater lol.

Although if C63 R is a real thing I might be another cycle away from trying electric.

----------


## Xtrema

Wonder if they will revise it if CAD continue to crash against USD.

----------


## rage2

> Wonder if they will revise it if CAD continue to crash against USD.



$120k is supposed to be the CAD price. It starts at $85k USD.

----------


## suntan

Jesus even quoted Gestalt hurts.

----------


## Xtrema

> $120k is supposed to be the CAD price. It starts at $85k USD.



Wow. That's cheaper than I thought it will be.

----------


## rage2

> Wow. That's cheaper than I thought it will be.



Yea. There's word that there will be 3 different models coming out, but I was told that it'll start at 600hp and that's what $120k cad gets you for the first model next year. I was pretty surprised too. That makes it way more bearable than a Model S, of course assuming the Taycan isn't built like a piece of shit and has a respectable interior.

----------


## killramos

It’s still a Porsche. Even the bogo Macan is decent.

Im not surprised that 600 is the starting point. They are obviously going to make one faster than the P100D.

----------


## rage2

> It’s still a Porsche. Even the bogo Macan is decent.
> 
> Im not surprised that 600 is the starting point. They are obviously going to make one faster than the P100D.



Before supe and Gestalt gets in here to correct you, it's not faster than the P100D in 0-60. I doubt anyone making a non supercar EV will try to beat Tesla's 0-60 as it adds too much cost to obtain a single metric.

----------


## killramos

> Before supe and Gestalt gets in here to correct you, it's not faster than the P100D in 0-60. I doubt anyone making a non supercar EV will try to beat Tesla's 0-60 as it adds too much cost to obtain a single metric.



Think you misunderstood me, I know the 600HP model E is slower. But this isn’t the Halo model yet.

As for whether it’s worth it to do it, I mean that’s like saying what was the point of making the 918 faster than a Laferrari or a P1.

This is Porsche’s punch back at Tesla for converting some of their customers. My bet is the punch is going right below the belt, Porsche can outspend Tesla any day of the week. And Elon will drive himself bankrupt trying to compete.

----------


## Gestalt

> Think you misunderstood me, I know the 600HP model E is slower. But this isnt the Halo model yet.
> 
> As for whether its worth it to do it, I mean thats like saying what was the point of making the 918 faster than a Laferrari or a P1.
> 
> This is Porsches punch back at Tesla for converting some of their customers. My bet is the punch is going right below the belt, Porsche can outspend Tesla any day of the week. And Elon will drive himself bankrupt trying to compete.



Porsch makes garbage. seen the resale on anyting but a 911 turbo? seen a tranny r&R on a cayenne? garbage. POrsche can't beat tesla. theyve been building cars for 80 years and stil cant get it right.  :facepalm:  going after a 7 year old model s?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> Porsch makes garbage. seen the resale on anyting but a 911 turbo? seen a tranny r&R on a cayenne? garbage. POrsche can't beat tesla. theyve been building cars for 80 years and stil cant get it right.  going after a 7 year old model s?




You somehow brought up an interesting point... even if by accident. A pure electric Porsche might actually be a great buy due to lack of moving parts it could really hold its value... depends what battery warranty/replacement cost/life cycle looks like

----------


## Gestalt

> You somehow brought up an interesting point... even if by accident. A pure electric Porsche might actually be a great buy due to lack of moving parts it could really hold its value... depends what battery warranty/replacement cost/life cycle looks like



That would be good. That euro crap has the resale value of a dodge minivan with 30x the repair cost

----------


## rage2

> Porsch makes garbage. seen the resale on anyting but a 911 turbo? seen a tranny r&R on a cayenne? garbage. POrsche can't beat tesla. theyve been building cars for 80 years and stil cant get it right.  going after a 7 year old model s?



If you take out the turbo, gt3, and limited production cars, Porsche resale value is still above average, with the Cayenne dragging it down. Cayenne depreciates like any other luxury SUV.

Edit - http://www.thecarmagazine.com/2018/0...e-value-award/

Porsche isn’t going to beat Tesla. Tesla fans are way too powerful. You meet all the Porsche and Ferrari fans out there, showing up at meets decked out in gear, and it doesn’t come close in comparison to Tesla fans. It’s beyond cultish. Not saying all Tesla owners are like that, but a lot of them are. I’ve seen tesla fanboy marriages end in divorce because they went out and leased a Model S check to check to further the mission stretching family finances past the edge. It’s insanity. 

Do you know who will beat Tesla? Their biggest threat is themselves if they can’t get their production and finances together.

----------


## killramos

Also class leading reliability, something Tesla can’t even accomplish with no moving parts.

As for cayenne, it’s pure profit for Porsche and sold to the sheep who dgaf.

----------


## rage2

Gestalt has sort of a point with repairs. It’s a PITA, but this isn’t just a Porsche issue, it’s all modern cars. It’s not like EVs are any better, Tesla won’t even let anyone else touch the car without flagging the car and not servicing or supporting it any further. Salvage cars become unusable after repairs, Tesla won’t even service it until you pay $10k to recertify it.

----------


## speedog

> If you take out the turbo, gt3, and limited production cars, Porsche resale value is still above average, with the Cayenne dragging it down. Cayenne depreciates like any other luxury SUV.
> 
> Edit - http://www.thecarmagazine.com/2018/0...e-value-award/
> 
> Porsche isn’t going to beat Tesla. Tesla fans are way too powerful. You meet all the Porsche and Ferrari fans out there, showing up at meets decked out in gear, and it doesn’t come close in comparison to Tesla fans. It’s beyond cultish. Not saying all Tesla owners are like that, but a lot of them are. I’ve seen tesla fanboy marriages end in divorce because they went out and leased a Model S check to check to further the mission stretching family finances past the edge. It’s insanity. 
> .
> Do you know who will beat Tesla? Their biggest threat is themselves if they can’t get their production and finances together.



It's beyond cultish? You make it sound like Apple fanboyism.

----------


## ercchry

> It's beyond cultish? You make it sound like Apple fanboyism.



Well... there is a fair amount of crossover between the two  :ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

They aren't even that different. One is a big battery strapped to a screen. The other is a big battery strapped to four wheels. I have zero interest in EVs.

----------


## rage2

> It's beyond cultish? You make it sound like Apple fanboyism.



It’s as strong if not stronger than Apple fanboyism at its peak. Check out tmc forums, teslamotors reddit to see what I mean.

----------


## Gestalt

> Porsche isnt going to beat Tesla.



correct. Like the rest of the german auto industry their top execs will probably be in jail for cheating emissions.  :ROFL!: 

It's simple, if i was in europe, id drive somethign european. in canada, i would drive something american, or japanese, even though i coudlnt talk the wife out of her e series.

I think tata will take over the world personally. who makes more cheap elecric car then those guys.

----------


## tonytiger55

I drove the model X last Sunday... wow...




> I think tata will take over the world personally. who makes more cheap elecric car then those guys.



They also sell tea... Tata Tea.

----------


## Alpine Autowerks

> Porsch makes garbage. seen the resale on anyting but a 911 turbo? seen a tranny r&R on a cayenne? garbage. POrsche can't beat tesla. theyve been building cars for 80 years and stil cant get it right.  going after a 7 year old model s?




Cayenne trans Re & Re ...why yes I have seen that - nothing worth mentioning about except that it is a common repair because it is a Toyota built transmission. , 2nd lowest recall history my 300000 km na 944 quicker around Castrol than S2000, 

Tayman - Mission E is priced "low" because it allows Porsche to sell more sports cars and SUV via internal CO2 & fleet fuel economy credits and averaging. They do not have to buy credits from companies like Tesla. As more real auto manufactures build their own carbon offset machines part of Tesla's business model has past its "best before date" . This is why Musk once described Tesla as a temporary company.

----------


## Alpine Autowerks

> I drove the model X last Sunday... wow...
> 
> 
> 
> They also sell tea... Tata Tea.



One of my customers came in with a bruised cheek & forehead when their Model X loaner falcon door body slammed her into a parkade stairwell wall. They had the loaner because of a 6 month wait for collision parts for their S. A hotel valet on a joy ride taking their Model S to a charging station tee-boned a truck. The Tesla salesman refused to believe her story because the door has "sensors" .

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...roduction-tent




> “The existing line isn’t functional, it can’t build cars as planned and there isn’t room to get people into work stations to replace the non-functioning robots,” Warburton said in an email. “So here we have it—build cars manually in the parking lot.”




lol.

What a garbage company.

----------


## killramos

So what you are saying is Teslas factory is pretty much the trashy part of the Hamptons?

----------


## lilmira

> So what you are saying is Tesla’s factory is pretty much the trashy part of the Hamptons?



Well they only build like 5 cars a year so it's all good, no need to narc on them.

----------


## suntan

> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...roduction-tent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.
> 
> What a garbage company.



yur jsut jelous open ari builing is good for wurkres.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...roduction-tent






> Here is a quote from Max Warburton who benchmarked auto assembly plants before his job as a financial analyst: “Words fail me. It’s insanity,” said Max Warburton, who benchmarked auto-assembly plants around the world before becoming a financial analyst.



I think Max Warburton may have benchmarked auto-assembly plants around the world before becoming a financial analyst.

----------


## Xtrema

> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...roduction-tent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.
> 
> What a garbage company.



How else can you turn a 500,000/year car plant and now can barely do 250,000 and you have to built them in tents outside the factory.

Model 3 start to show up in Calgary streets. I would say a $20K Corolla has better paint job and panel alignment than the 2 I have seen so far.

----------


## killramos

You are wrong. It’s the best car ever!

----------


## suntan

> How else can you turn a 500,000/year car plant and now can barely do 250,000 and you have to built them in tents outside the factory.
> 
> Model 3 start to show up in Calgary streets. I would say a $20K Corolla has better paint job and panel alignment than the 2 I have seen so far.



All the Model Ss I have seen look like shit, so this is hardly a surprise. Nothing like having 1995 Saturn panel gaps.

----------


## benyl

> All the Model Ss I have seen look like shit, so this is hardly a surprise. Nothing like having 1995 Saturn panel gaps.



Saturn had more consistent panel gaps than Tesla does. Quality to change the world!

----------


## suntan

> Saturn had more consistent panel gaps than Tesla does. Quality to change the world!



I was behind one a couple of weeks ago. The trunk lid was crooked.

Levels are old tech!

----------


## rage2

> Model 3 start to show up in Calgary streets. I would say a $20K Corolla has better paint job and panel alignment than the 2 I have seen so far.



Saw one at the Market mall EV parking/charging spot. Guy stood around for an hour with the doors open, looking at the car, and looking at people driving by seeking validation or some shit. Either that or he just needed to sit for an hour to charge the car. Smug looking hipster guy.




> I was behind one a couple of weeks ago. The trunk lid was crooked.
> 
> Levels are old tech!



One thing I learnt with Tesla owners in California, they DGAF about panel gaps. As car guys, we can bring it up all we want. We're the minority. 90% of car owners only care if shit is way out of whack, which increases to 99% for Tesla fans. Lexus made a big deal about it in the 90's, people were certainly aware of it, but only car guys (and Tesla haters) really care.

Even problems with the functionality of the car, Tesla fans don't care because at some point it'll be updated so they'll live with the temporary (typically 3-6 months) worth of pain, such as rebooting the car frequently. This thinking is weird as shit to me when it comes to cars, but pretty normal when it comes to other tech such as phones and laptops.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Model 3 start to show up in Calgary streets.



Saw one on H2 this morning, did a double take, came here to post about it when I got to the office  :ROFL!: 




> As car guys



No. Just no. Car guys do not give a shit about panel gap. Yuppie dorks with nothing better to do than jerk off over the latest MB/BMW specs do.  :Pooosie: 

I'm still in the camp of being impressed by Musk. Putting that 3rd temporary line together like that, regardless of quality, is genius if people will still buy the product at the end of the day. Not so genius was his stupid ideas with the original plant. He really should have worked with the 80/20 rule and just went to town trying to automate the stuff that could be done, making the plant more efficient than most without reinventing the wheel.

----------


## flipstah

I saw a Model 3 for the first time in Leavenworth and the interior is so bare. 

When will electric cars be like this!?

----------


## killramos

Everyone knows Ricky from the trailer park boys was the original car guy.

Real cars don’t even need panels let alone worrying about gaps!

Pretty sure hightemp is incapable of telling the difference between car guys and white trash.

----------


## rage2

> No. Just no. Car guys do not give a shit about panel gap. Yuppie dorks with nothing better to do than jerk off over the latest MB/BMW specs do.



OK there Schumacher.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

You guys don't bring your Car Enthusiast bullshit in here.

----------


## benyl

Fuck car guys. Anyone who expects some level of quality when paying a premium prices will notice panel gaps. It's about attention to detail.

90% of people don't notice, car guy or not, because 90% of the population lacks attention to detail.

----------


## Gestalt

Real car guys dgaf about panel gaps and how soft the leather is. Frame alignment specs and jig hiles on 80s chevies was 3/8 inch while Honda was 1mm. But everyone still wants a 67 camaro.

Posh finishing nit pick is for hipsters and the pinky up latte drinkers.  :Wink: 

When the f did 'car guys' become the guys that lease a fancy car and pay for service, 3m, and drive through starbucks. Those are armchair cargiys. Real Car guys restore, mod, race and work on there cars. Omg no one in shop can stop laughing at 'car guys' and their panel gaps and baby but smooth leather.  :ROFL!: 

And panel gaps arent about quality. Its about people that dont know much about cars using it as a visual indicator of perceived quality since they cant actually use a micrometer or take apart and induction motor or a transmission.  :ROFL!:

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Fuck car guys. Anyone who expects some level of quality when paying a premium prices will notice panel gaps. It's about attention to detail.
> 
> 90% of people don't notice, car guy or not, because 90% of the population lacks attention to detail.



This comment I can completely get behind. I too notice panel gaps, but that has zero to do with me being into cars.

I see Kill, our forum head yuppie dork, has taken offence  :ROFL!:  At least Rage can have a sense of humor about it  :Love:

----------


## Twin_Cam_Turbo

Seen Model 3 everywhere the past two weeks, mostly driven by people who don’t have a fucking clue how to drive. First car?

----------


## supe

Can you _car guys_ tell me how significant this is?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...e-attack-race/

I thought Tesla's weren't trackable.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> This comment I can completely get behind. I too notice panel gaps, but that has zero to do with me being into cars.
> 
> I see Kill, our forum head yuppie dork, has taken offence  At least Rage can have a sense of humor about it



As head forum yuppie I take my role of pointing out your status as chief moron very seriously.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> And panel gaps arent about quality. Its about people that dont know much about cars using it as a visual indicator of perceived quality since they cant actually use a micrometer or take apart and induction motor or a transmission.




There you have it folks, our resident hairlip has confirmed that "fit and finish" are in no way related to construction quality.

----------


## rage2

> Seen Model 3 everywhere the past two weeks, mostly driven by people who don’t have a fucking clue how to drive. First car?



Autopilot.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Xtrema

> Can you _car guys_ tell me how significant this is?
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...e-attack-race/
> 
> I thought Tesla's weren't trackable.



Yeah, it's Canada and it rained. Battery cooling is taken care of.

The question is, end of the track event, does it need to be towed home.

----------


## rage2

> Can you _car guys_ tell me how significant this is?
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...e-attack-race/
> 
> I thought Tesla's weren't trackable.






> Yeah, it's Canada and it rained. Battery cooling is taken care of.
> 
> The question is, end of the track event, does it need to be towed home.



Model 3 LR runs fine at the track, it's the Model S P versions that's problematic because of thermal management when so much energy is being released by the batteries. That's why it goes into limp mode, to limit battery output and reduce power to, wait for it... Model 3 LR performance levels.

For the Model 3, the problem is the brakes getting toasted. I believe this guy upgraded the brakes and suspension. Street brakes getting killed at a track isn't anything new. I remember back in the days of Race City Hondas would come back with their brakes on fire haha. Lots of cars have this problem.

It's not even that significant for Tesla because the Model S non P's could run at the track as well due to lower energy output. The problem has always been with the P's.

----------


## Gestalt

> There you have it folks, our resident hairlip has confirmed that "fit and finish" are in no way related to construction quality.



Such a superficial car guy  :Wink: .

Everyone knows its whats inside that counts.

I saw an old middle eastern guy not to long ago in ferrari shoes, ferrari jacket, shiny wt look hair with curls standing next to his ferrari. I imagine you the same with your lude.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> Model 3 LR runs fine at the track, it's the Model S P versions that's problematic because of thermal management when so much energy is being released by the batteries. That's why it goes into limp mode, to limit battery output and reduce power to, wait for it... Model 3 LR performance levels.
> 
> For the Model 3, the problem is the brakes getting toasted. I believe this guy upgraded the brakes and suspension. Street brakes getting killed at a track isn't anything new. I remember back in the days of Race City Hondas would come back with their brakes on fire haha. Lots of cars have this problem.
> 
> It's not even that significant for Tesla because the Model S non P's could run at the track as well due to lower energy output. The problem has always been with the P's.



See what they need on these is a track setting to limit output and a party mode button that drivers use at their risk “Danger to manifold” style that runs the risk of going into limp mode and pooching their lap  :ROFL!:

----------


## Darell_n

> You guys don't bring your Car Enthusiast bullshit in here.



Exactly, this thread is about appliances.

----------


## Gestalt

Buh bye gas cars.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/vo...063626457.html

----------


## HiTempguy1

> As head forum yuppie I take my role of pointing out your status as chief moron very seriously.



 :Love:  I love that we can share moments like these together. Unfortunately, nobody really gives a shit what you point out  :ROFL!:

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> I saw an old middle eastern guy not to long ago in ferrari shoes, ferrari jacket, shiny wt look hair with curls standing next to his ferrari.



LOL nobody else going to mention he spotted Zahir?

----------


## rage2

> LOL nobody else going to mention he spotted Zahir?



By their definition, Zahir isn't a car guy. But I've seen the panel gaps on the FXX, clearly he should be a car guy.  :ROFL!:

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

Panel gaps on an Italian exotic? Say it isn't so, car guys!  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## lilmira

burning cash sounds like a real car guy

----------


## rage2

> Musk is calling out the haters
> 
> Sacs is predicting that Tesla falls short of it's 28,000 model 3 delivery by 6000 cars for this past quarter... Musk must be feeling pretty confident because apparently tweeted they are in for a "rude awakening".
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/27/elon...awakening.html
> 
> Personally I think they will be close to their target for once, but I also think as a result of this massive push their cash burn rate is going to be absolutely fucking ridiculous with the amount of new workers and that giant tent assembly line he setup in the parking lot.
> 
> It might be a good quarter for production, but my prediction is by the end of August they are out of cash unless they start liquidating assets.



They're not going to run out of cash. They're going to raise capital. There's no marth that can avoid the inevitable here. Bankruptcy isn't an option, liquidation isn't an option as everything is leveraged towards their line of credit, even the factory, so they can't liquidate anything. They will raise cash.

Tesla will do everything in their power on next week's earnings calls to pump the stock price in preparation for raising capital. They're going to talk about positive gross margins while ignoring the COGS buried in other areas, burst rates, production rates (basically this week's rate), ignore actual Q2 average rates, and extrapolate the shit out of it to paint a picture of a profitable Q3 without actually needing to produce a profitable Q3. Money will be raised in Q3 before the earnings come out. There is a massive risk in raising money after Q3, because they will actually need to deliver in Q3 which won't be easy. I'm 99% sure this will happen before Q3 ends, sooner rather than later. They're trying to sell as many Model 3 P's as possible, but I believe demand isn't as strong as they predicted. Tesla even lowered the price on the Model 3 P this week. They've opened up a massive amount of reservations to order status, so that should bring in a huge # of build deposits to boost Q2 cash and buy them more time as well.

I just don't know at which point the stock will fall. I don't think it will be next week though. The shorts will probably get a bit of a squeeze as well from all this so there's probably some short term money to be made here IMO.

----------


## Xtrema

> They've opened up a massive amount of reservations to order status, so that should bring in a huge # of build deposits to boost Q2 cash and buy them more time as well.



Seems like that's the case. Funny that once you committed, that deposit isn't refundable. You are locked in until you get your car.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Sounds like most shady car dealerships......

----------


## rage2

> Seems like that's the case. Funny that once you committed, that deposit isn't refundable. You are locked in until you get your car.



Yea, and the lead time has increased from 3-4 weeks to 5-6 months. The downside for Tesla is that this will truly reveal how many reservation holders are only in it for the $35k version, a car that is unprofitable to build. Not that it matters for the short term of course, for every 50k commit to building and putting down $2500, that's another 2 week cash lifeline.

----------


## killramos

So are model 3 p’s available to order now?

For some reason I thought it was only the non performance middle range models no one wants available for the first year or so?

----------


## rage2

> So are model 3 p’s available to order now?
> 
> For some reason I thought it was only the non performance middle range models no one wants available for the first year or so?



Yes. 

You can leave a $1000 deposit and choose to configure ($2500 additional deposit) right away.

In the US (for now), you can get LR RWD, LR AWD Performance. In Canada, you can get LR RWD, LR AWD, and LR AWD Performance.

Prioritization has completely changed to maximize ASP and margins. Quickest cars to get delivered (2 month timeframe) is the most expensive version, LR AWD Performance. Next is the LR AWD at 3 months, and finally, the current cheapest version LR RWD pushed to 5 months. Basically for Q3, only the most expensive Model 3's are being sold.

There is zero mention of the SR RWD $35k USD model, no idea how many reservation holders are holding out for that one.

----------


## killramos

What’s the CAD price on the awd performance 3?

Their website really sucks for the 3

----------


## rage2

> What’s the CAD price on the awd performance 3?
> 
> Their website really sucks for the 3



You need to pay $3500 to find out.  :ROFL!: 

j/k, starts at $85,000 for bare bones performance, ends at $110,000 for loaded. The gap between the 2 are : 

- Autopilot
- Full Self Driving
- Top speed raised
- 20" wheels
- CF spoiler
- Aluminum pedals
- Pilot Sport 4S
- Red brakes

----------


## killramos

Knew I could come to you for the facts Rage  :ROFL!: 

Pretty damned expensive, I’ll take an austere Porsche over loaded 3 lol.

----------


## Maxt

Getting all sorts of tesla new product media in my newsfeeds, roadster updates and pickup truck info etc, looking for mor downpayments for cash flow I would guess.

----------


## supe

> $85,000 for bare bones performance, ends at $110,000 for loaded. The gap between the 2 are :



Interesting, I just specced out a fully loaded M3... grand total 109,962, coincidence? 

My TM3 order is in!

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Interesting, I just specced out a fully loaded M3... grand total 109,962, coincidence? 
> 
> My TM3 order is in!



You seriously ordered one of these pos Tesla for that cost? You middle name must be Elon if you've got that money to burn!

----------


## Buster

People are paying $100k for a car that they know is likely going to be built in a tent in a parking lot?

Holy fuck.

----------


## killramos

> People are paying $100k for a car that they know is likely going to be built in a tent in a parking lot?
> 
> Holy fuck.



10 more and you are in a faster car with a Pcar badge on the front.

Anyone who takes this over an M3, you can have em.

----------


## Xtrema

> Interesting, I just specced out a fully loaded M3... grand total 109,962, coincidence? 
> 
> My TM3 order is in!



Good for you Supe. Elon needs you.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

You guys are off your rocker comparing euro garbage bmw m3 to a tesla  :ROFL!: 

Gas when for the same money or cheaper you can have electric?  :ROFL!: 

Youll fit right in in the ne in 3 years.

----------


## ickyflex

> You guys are off your rocker comparing euro garbage bmw m3 to a tesla 
> 
> Gas when for the same money or cheaper you can have electric? 
> 
> Youll fit right in in the ne in 3 years.



weak attempt at trolling.

US Gasoline Demand expected to break 10 Mill/Day in a few weeks... 

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/Le...s=WGFUPUS2&f=W

Since you like to quote numbers and shit

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## speedog

> So... I think they might run out of cash. They are now trying to extort more money from people who are waiting on their model 3's
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/28/tesl...2500-more.html
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Supe, did you get your e-mail yet? I hope you have another $2500 to support Elon or he is going to keep your $1000 deposit!



Another $2,500 and you still don't get a delivery date. Must be a very special carrot at the end of that stick.

----------


## rage2

> So... I think they might run out of cash. They are now trying to extort more money from people who are waiting on their model 3's
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/28/tesl...2500-more.html
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Supe, did you get your e-mail yet? I hope you have another $2500 to support Elon or he is going to keep your $1000 deposit!



Clearly you need to read. I posted the reservations open already, with estimated delivery times of each model. Supe also got his order in, so $2500 USD paid, and car in 2 or so months. 

Congrats supe!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## pheoxs

Surprised no one has posted the video of Tesla’s high quality assembly facilities yet unless I missed it a few pages back 

https://twitter.com/ispytsla/status/...881190400?s=21

----------


## Buster

> Surprised no one has posted the video of Tesla’s high quality assembly facilities yet unless I missed it a few pages back 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ispytsla/status/...881190400?s=21



haha. omg.

I am going to stay well clear of these pieces of shit on the road. Random crap will probably just fall off of them.

----------


## ercchry

At least it’s in a Calgary based company’s instant structure!

----------


## Gestalt

I'm curious why assembly under a tent matters to you?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> I think the better question is why wouldn't it matter, haha
> 
> Other manufactures of high end luxury all do it in controlled sterile environments
> 
> Why would you want a car that is having summer pollen and dust blow through it, in addition to exposure to uncontrolled low/high moisture levels?



That building COULD be more superior than traditional buildings for a sterile environment... tensioned membrane, incredible seal with the right doors... and you know... 4 walls 

Not cheap either... same company that did that temporary gym for the elbow park/Mount Royal grade school that was a whole fiasco after the floods

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> It could be, I agree
> 
> But they have it open ended with no HVAC controls at all



Minor details  :ROFL!: 

In that video it did look half built though, at least 8 figures of Tesla money made it to Alberta!

----------


## rage2

Phase 1 complete. 5K final week of quarter completed. 




Phase 2, extrapolation next week!

----------


## Gestalt

> I think the better question is why wouldn't it matter, haha
> 
> Other manufactures of high end luxury all do it in controlled sterile environments
> 
> Why would you want a car that is having summer pollen and dust blow through it, in addition to exposure to uncontrolled low/high moisture levels? Everything in that car is going to be contaminated, and the hill billy half ass cobbling together of cars is going to result in a dreadful number of human errors. Some of the defects on the Model 3 are going to be hilarious.
> 
> The model X and S were both pretty bad for quality, the model 3 build in the great outdoors will be total lemons by comparison
> 
> Looks like Tesla hardcore supporters are starting to lose their faith after ownership



I need to understand why its a big deal. Sterile environment? Is this open heart surgery or vehicle assembly? And just because it's all under a tent doesnt mean cirtical parts arent "sterile". Are they paining it under there then garanteed they have paint booths under it the main tent. perhaps motor assembly if done there is in a clean room. there arent many parts of a car that are that sensitive to moisture or pollen  :facepalm:  

its california. no one ever takes there shoes off there ive noticed at peoples houses. its not the dusty place that calgary is  :ROFL!: 

theres only a couple things you need to worry about assembling a car outside of a climate controlled room and easily compensated. bolt stretch (torque wrench accuracy), and tight tolerance machined surfaces (power train internals). If those things are even manufactured there (versus just being bolted into the car), they will have clean rooms under that tent for it.

basic car stuff. theyll be fine.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

hey guyz....Elon invited me to the grande opening of their new SpaceX rocket factory.

----------


## Gestalt

> Isn't there a ton of drifting fire smoke and car smog in California?
> 
> I guess if you don't mind your 80K entry level car full of weed pollen and dust that will never come out and the sweet smell of carcinogenic sulphur particles it is fine, lol.
> 
> .



I dont know. Your making the claim and making it sound like pillution will be getting into your car somewhere where it wont get once assembled and that it is worse for you than walking around haha.

Your stretching to fit your hate on. I dont see why it matters at all.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

It's called shaking up the auto industry. If the greatest car ever made can be constructed in a tent and sold for luxury car prices then soon all other luxury manufacturers will follow suit and increase profit. Who needs a fancy factory to build quality luxury these days? Dinosaurs. 

Tesla just changed the world again.

----------


## lilmira

Real car guys obviously enjoy building their own cars so Tesla will soon just give you a big box of stuff on delivery so you too can enjoy the process. Don’t worry, no extra charge. Oh the instruction is online to save the trees. Why do you need one anyway?

----------


## Darkane

I am neither a supporter or hater or Tesla, but my thoughts:

Some of the most expensive restorations, in example the Bugatti Aerolithe the guild of Automotive Restorers did. Was it built in a super clean room like current NSXs are?

Doubt it.

----------


## Buster

> Real car guys obviously enjoy building their own cars so Tesla will soon just give you a big box of stuff on delivery so you too can enjoy the process. Don’t worry, no extra charge. Oh the instruction is online to save the trees. Why do you need one anyway?



It would be built better if you did it yourself.

----------


## npham

I don't ask for much when it comes to where my car is built, as long as it has four walls...

I'm surprised they are not breaking some labour laws when the temps rise, since these tents are clearly not climate controlled.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Investors ask for two things, information and confidence. Tesla currently provides neither. 

If they can increase the weekly build rate from here without any setbacks that will be very positive. Of they have achieved a one week peak through some unsustainable methods, that's worrisome. 


I honestly hope they succeed, but I'm a skeptic.

----------


## rage2

> I am neither a supporter or hater or Tesla, but my thoughts:
> 
> Some of the most expensive restorations, in example the Bugatti Aerolithe the guild of Automotive Restorers did. Was it built in a super clean room like current NSXs are?
> 
> Doubt it.



There is nothing inherently wrong with building a car in a tent partially exposed to the elements and by hand. There is a problem mass manufacturing cars by hand partially exposed to the elements. The whole point of mass manufacturing is to eliminate variable factors to minimize time and cost, and have accurate and consistent production costs, quality and speed.

Even when you look at manufactures that build their cars by hand, its all marketing fluff. Examples such as AMG engines or Bentleys are all machine assisted hand building, no different than assembling LEGO but with machines verifying every single assembly step. Rolls Royce final assembly is probably as close as youre going to get to hand built these days, and thats the final assembly step like Tesla is doing in the tent. The difference is RR would be spending 50x the amount of time per car to get panel gaps and other alignment absolutely perfect. The complete opposite of mass manufacturing as they only pump out a couple thousand cars a year. A tent manual assembly line to mass manufacture 5k, 10k a year is just insanity.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## CorvetteMusic

This stock is like Chipotle.... so damn smart to buy during a dip

----------


## blownz

Really sucks to be a Tesla fan in Canada.

Most cars in Canada sell for 5-15% more than the same model in the US. Yet the same model Tesla costs 30% or more in Canada. I am surprised so many people can justify the huge premium here.

----------


## rage2

> Really sucks to be a Tesla fan in Canada.
> 
> Most cars in Canada sell for 5-15% more than the same model in the US. Yet the same model Tesla costs 30% or more in Canada. I am surprised so many people can justify the huge premium here.



Well in Ontario there's a $15k rebate that makes it hurt less. BC has a smaller rebate, but people have fuck you money anyways and DGAF. It's all about saving the environment. If AB rolls out a big rebate program that applies to Tesla's, I'll bet you that there will be a surge of sales here too. Of course being in socialist AB there's no way they'd rebate Tesla's for the rich.  :ROFL!: 

There's a kajillion Model 3's in Vancouver when I was there this weekend. They're everywhere haha.

edit - Looks like Ontario's rebate just went away.

----------


## ercchry

> Well in Ontario there's a $15k rebate that makes it hurt less. BC has a smaller rebate, but people have fuck you money anyways and DGAF. It's all about saving the environment. If AB rolls out a big rebate program that applies to Tesla's, I'll bet you that there will be a surge of sales here too. Of course being in socialist AB there's no way they'd rebate Tesla's for the rich. 
> 
> There's a kajillion Model 3's in Vancouver when I was there this weekend. They're everywhere haha.



correction: * people in van and TO have access to way too much equity in their homes  :ROFL!:

----------


## flipstah

I think a Model 3 would look great slammed to the ground.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> Model 3 would look good if you removed all of the body panels, welded on a spoiler, and dropped in a V8. 
> 
> Hmmmm, I kind of want to make a gas guzzling Telsa now? Any busted up ones from those coffee shop accidents kicking around?



 :ROFL!: 

Make sure it has carbs too.

----------


## flipstah

> Model 3 would look good if you removed all of the body panels, welded on a spoiler, and dropped in a V8. 
> 
> Hmmmm, I kind of want to make a gas guzzling Telsa now? Any busted up ones from those coffee shop accidents kicking around?



There's a bunch of flooded Tesla's out and about. I saw some dude on YouTube rebuilding one.




> Make sure it has carbs too.



Lmao Weber or bust, bruh

----------


## rage2

> and dropped in a V8.



You can hate Tesla all you want, but knocking their drivetrain makes absolutely zero sense. Their battery and drivetrain package work extremely well, one of the best drivetrain I've driven, EV or ICE.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> You can hate Tesla all you want, but knocking their drivetrain makes absolutely zero sense. Their battery and drivetrain package work extremely well, one of the best drivetrain I've driven, EV or ICE.



Agreed. The rest of the car is garbage, their manufacturing is garbage, the company is relatively garbage, but the moving parts are impressive. Musk needs a partnership with someone who knows wtf they are doing and how to build a car. He should purely be the hype man at this point. And keep making rockets.

----------


## blownz

> Well in Ontario there's a $15k rebate that makes it hurt less. BC has a smaller rebate, but people have fuck you money anyways and DGAF. It's all about saving the environment. If AB rolls out a big rebate program that applies to Tesla's, I'll bet you that there will be a surge of sales here too. Of course being in socialist AB there's no way they'd rebate Tesla's for the rich. 
> 
> There's a kajillion Model 3's in Vancouver when I was there this weekend. They're everywhere haha.
> 
> edit - Looks like Ontario's rebate just went away.



I should have just mentioned Alberta. And the price difference is worse if you consider federal and possibly state rebates in the US. I get FU money when it comes to the model S and X, but with the 3, that is going to mostly be the wannabe rich that are already stretched pretty thin driving entry level German cars and 3 is a pretty big premium compared to those cars.

To be honest I am surprised the Federal government hasn't set up a rebate yet for electric cars and same with our NDP provincial government. I wouldn't expect them to rebate the S or X, but the 3, bolt, leaf and others I thought would have had something by now.

----------


## killramos

What’s a little debt when you are SAVING THE ENVIRONMENT.

To get a better assessment of the headspace of the average Vancouver dweller, go read the comments of the news article about the greenpeace idiots dangling off the bridge to stop tankers. Those people genuinely think if another gas car hits the road the world will literally end. Vancouver is flooded in koolaid.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## googe

What, nobody is talking about the big news? We only post when we are shitting on Tesla?  :Wink: 

5000 a week! He actually hit his milestone!  :Angel:

----------


## killramos

I thought it was pretty well established that Elon was going to fudge to numbers to touch that goal on a burst basis.

Probably left 4900 cars on the lot with a mirror missing and just installed them that week.

----------


## Xtrema

> What, nobody is talking about the big news? We only post when we are shitting on Tesla? 
> 
> 5000 a week! He actually hit his milestone!



7000 if you include S and X.

But....

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/30/1...t-robots-welds




> According to the Times, Tesla executives approved an idea from the company’s engineers to have robots make about 300 fewer “unnecessary” welds in order to save time on production.






> Meanwhile, the WSJ says in its factory tour report that Tesla spent between $80 million and $90 million in an “automated warehouse system” that was supposed to send parts to specific workstations around the factory. When the gambit ultimately failed, parts of that conveyor system became some of the “scrap” Tesla used to create the assembly line under the tent outdoors.






> “While we have performed extensive internal testing on the products we manufacture, we currently have a limited frame of reference by which to evaluate detailed long-term quality, reliability, durability and performance characteristics of our battery packs, powertrains, vehicles and energy storage products,” the company wrote. “There can be no assurance that we will be able to detect and fix any defects in our products prior to their sale to or installation for consumers.”



$90M Scrap

Unnecessary welds

No assurance to detect and fix any defects.... oh because there is no checks at all.

http://fortune.com/2018/07/04/tesla-...st-skip-stock/




> Business Insider reported Tuesday that, according to internal documents it had seen, Musk asked factory engineers to stop performing a “brake and roll” test on the Model 3s a few days before the deadline for finally producing 5,000 cars in a week, as promised to investors.



The Q2 numbers better be stellar at this point. The fact they let NYT and WSJ in after calling them fake news for weeks points to another funding round coming.

----------


## Buster

How do we know the drivetrain isn't built like a steaming pile of crap like the rest of the car?

----------


## Gestalt

Theres a shock. Tesla builds 7000 cars in a week and all the people in the pocket of thr oil industry shit on them with #fakenews

 :ROFL!: 

Keep it up dirty oil, your time is coming  :Wink:

----------


## Gestalt

> Theres a shock. Tesla builds 7000 cars in a week and all the people in the pocket of thr oil industry shit on them with #fakenews
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it up dirty oil, your time is coming



I was right. rochestrated attack on tesla.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/...for-the-Future

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Theres a shock. Tesla builds 7000 cars in a week and all the people in the pocket of thr oil industry shit on them with #fakenews
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it up dirty oil, your time is coming



Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-baaaa envirosheep, have you any know?

----------


## Gestalt

> Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-baaaa envirosheep, have you any know?



I seem to know quite a bit about cars yes.

Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE.

----------


## rage2

Continuing on last weeks predictions, Q2 numbers is going to beat Wall Street estimates with losses narrowing. Q3 is going to be predicted to be profitable. Tesla has already shuffled deliveries to Q3 (some theorizing over credits) so Q3 is going to look like a strong quarter. Should see some spikes in the stock price right after the Q2 earnings call. It’s all planned, Tesla needs to get the stock price past $360 before the next set of bonds mature. 

If we look back at Q1, Tesla’s last week burst rate surpassed 2000/week. Q2 they built the tent (20% production out of there), ripped out a bunch of robots, and replaced with workers to get to 5000/week burst rate. This worked out to a 2500/week average for Q2. There’s question marks about that 5000 (rumors 1000 of those were already on the line for minor rework) but I’ll ignore that for now since it’s just a random leak. They also cut costs by getting rid of 9% of the workforce, mostly in the solarcity side. If Tesla wants to nail Q3 with a profit, they simply stop spending on additional capacity, push the 3 lines as hard as possible, end up with a 3500-4000/week Q3 average, deliver as much as they can including the 11k shifted to q3, and profit. They’re not going to sustain 5000/week IMO as 24x7x365 is unrealistic, but guaranteed they’ll focus on that in the earnings call to boost the stock price. 

Long story short, should be some decent money making for traders in the next quarter. I’m still not sold long term with demand and actual gross margins completely unknown since they’re burying a large chunk of COGS in SG&A.

----------


## rage2

> Theres a shock. Tesla builds 7000 cars in a week and all the people in the pocket of thr oil industry shit on them with #fakenews
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it up dirty oil, your time is coming






> I was right. rochestrated attack on tesla.
> 
> https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/...for-the-Future



These conspiracy theories crack me up. At the end of the day, Tesla’s future is in its own hands. None of the bad news is swaying Tesla fans whatsoever. They still think autopilot does more than the state of tech today, they’ll continue to crash because the drivers are idiots, and they’ll continue to buy. Tesla need to sustain profitability to stay relevant. That’s it. Everything else is just noise.

Of course if Tesla fails, it’ll be dirty oils fault. Again. If they succeed, they’ve beaten big oil. It’s a great narrative to stick to.

----------


## Gestalt

> These conspiracy theories crack me up. At the end of the day, Tesla’s future is in its own hands. None of the bad news is swaying Tesla fans whatsoever. They still think autopilot does more than the state of tech today, they’ll continue to crash because the drivers are idiots, and they’ll continue to buy. Tesla need to sustain profitability to stay relevant. That’s it. Everything else is just noise.
> 
> Of course if Tesla fails, it’ll be dirty oils fault. Again. If they succeed, they’ve beaten big oil. It’s a great narrative to stick to.



its misonformation plane and simple. no conspiratcy about it. weve all seen it and comapnies fnded with only purpose to discredit tesla. they are 100% right with the attitude tesla gets from the general unkowing public which is required for this evolution away from dirty energy. talk to non car people, and all they know is steroetypes, bank loans, bankrupcy, tax dollars and all the other fakenews and misinformation spread by haters and oil people.

The article he tweeted is good at summarizing all this.

----------


## revelations

I wonder if, 10-20 years from now, and Tesla is a mainstream OEM (assuming things worked out) if these shait, "tent" build model 3s, wont become collectors items.

----------


## ercchry

all these mentions of "tent" in the news must be driving Sprung nuts... they hate that word  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> its misonformation plane and simple. no conspiratcy about it. weve all seen it and comapnies fnded with only purpose to discredit tesla. they are 100% right with the attitude tesla gets from the general unkowing public which is required for this evolution away from dirty energy. talk to non car people, and all they know is steroetypes, bank loans, bankrupcy, tax dollars and all the other fakenews and misinformation spread by haters and oil people.
> 
> The article he tweeted is good at summarizing all this.



In an ideal situation, nobody cares if there are a lot of shorts against your stock. Look at Apple, they are (were) the most shorted stock on the US market. Amazon is up there too. Both gets the same level of FUD as Tesla at one point in their lives. It makes zero difference, unless you need to pump up your stock price to survive. That's where Tesla has problems and gives so much attention to the shorts, and pretty much any negative coverage of the company. They need their stock price up to raise more money because they're not financially sound. If you look at how much they've spent to get to where they are now, hell let's assume they're able to sustain 7000/week, and they want to be the next GM, they have to repeat this process over 30x to get there (GM sells 200k/week). They need to control anything negative that affects their stock price if they want to move forward, and will have to do that for a fucking long ass time.

It's a dangerous game Tesla is playing, but hey, I was wrong about the difficulty of finding money to fund hundreds of billions to be a true mass car manufacturer. They've done pretty well so far, something like $20b raised so far to get to where they are today. Can they do this 30 more times?

----------


## Gestalt

> In an ideal situation, nobody cares if there are a lot of shorts against your stock. Look at Apple, they are (were) the most shorted stock on the US market. Amazon is up there too. Both gets the same level of FUD as Tesla at one point in their lives. It makes zero difference, unless you need to pump up your stock price to survive. That's where Tesla has problems and gives so much attention to the shorts, and pretty much any negative coverage of the company. They need their stock price up to raise more money because they're not financially sound. If you look at how much they've spent to get to where they are now, hell let's assume they're able to sustain 7000/week, and they want to be the next GM, they have to repeat this process over 30x to get there (GM sells 200k/week). They need to control anything negative that affects their stock price if they want to move forward, and will have to do that for a fucking long ass time.
> 
> It's a dangerous game Tesla is playing, but hey, I was wrong about the difficulty of finding money to fund hundreds of billions to be a true mass car manufacturer. They've done pretty well so far, something like $20b raised so far to get to where they are today. Can they do this 30 more times?



You dont understand what a short is. A short is a sell of something you dont own whicb puts artificial downward pressure on stock price.

Claiming it doesnt matter is like claiming stock price doesnt matter. 

They should be illegal but the stock market is the worlds bjggest scam so anything goes.

Interesting how you ignired the other smear tactic in the article.

----------


## killramos

Pretty sure Rage knows what a short is captain troll.

Read a book.

Rage is one of the only people in this thread who is being considerate and open minded about the company, he even likes the cars. Pick your audience better for your troll posts.

----------


## rage2

It's like he didn't even read my post, explaining why stock price doesn't matter, except to Tesla. Oh well. I give up.

----------


## killramos

You can’t fix stupid

----------


## VWEvo

> You dont understand what a short is. A short is a sell of something you dont own whicb puts artificial downward pressure on stock price.
> 
> Claiming it doesnt matter is like claiming stock price doesnt matter. 
> 
> They should be illegal but the stock market is the worlds bjggest scam so anything goes.
> 
> Interesting how you ignired the other smear tactic in the article.






I'm actually pro Tesla, especially since I own one. But you my friend, having been drinking too much of the kool aid. Go read rage's post again. I actually think he's right. I love my Tesla, but the company does have me worried. So much spin doctoring and so much craziness going on. But I am alarmed at the lengths that Tesla Fan boys go to defend Tesla. I'm obviously rooting for Tesla, but I would ease up on the rhetoric, just my opinion. On the flip side of the coin, there are alot of idiotic comments towards Tesla on here Ie. Superphreak and his insane hate for Tesla. I don't have the time nor the desire to really do this, but if you go back way early in this thread, you will probably see that he's been wrong for years now. I laugh when he says " if he had the money he could create a better auto company" :facepalm:

----------


## Xtrema

> You dont understand what a short is. A short is a sell of something you dont own whicb puts artificial downward pressure on stock price.
> 
> Claiming it doesnt matter is like claiming stock price doesnt matter. 
> 
> They should be illegal but the stock market is the worlds bjggest scam so anything goes.
> 
> Interesting how you ignired the other smear tactic in the article.



https://jalopnik.com/its-possible-to...sla-1827290718




> And when we report something that happens at Tesla, it isn’t meant to be “negative” or “positive.” They’re just things that happen, and when what people consider to be “bad news” is reported about Tesla, that’s on Tesla, just as Tesla is more than welcome to take credit—and people should be more than happy to give credit—when it does something well.
> 
> It’s possible that Tesla can make great cars, and it’s possible that Tesla needs to get its shit together.
> 
> Acknowledging both is just acknowledging reality.



Most supporter hears something they don't like, they immediately jump to smear tactics when it is the truth.

Norway is not happy with Tesla services
https://electrek.co/2018/07/05/tesla...uture-markets/

There were a few other outlets reporting the same news and this is only with Model S. So you got to wonder who Model 3 will fare if Model S already overwhelmed the service centers in Norway.

And if Electrek is reporting it, you know you have goofed.

----------


## Gestalt

> I'm actually pro Tesla, especially since I own one. But you my friend, having been drinking too much of the kool aid. Go read rage's post again. I actually think he's right. I love my Tesla, but the company does have me worried. So much spin doctoring and so much craziness going on. But I am alarmed at the lengths that Tesla Fan boys go to defend Tesla. I'm obviously rooting for Tesla, but I would ease up on the rhetoric, just my opinion. On the flip side of the coin, there are alot of idiotic comments towards Tesla on here Ie. Superphreak and his insane hate for Tesla. I don't have the time nor the desire to really do this, but if you go back way early in this thread, you will probably see that he's been wrong for years now. I laugh when he says " if he had the money he could create a better auto company"



The entire stock market is a scam. I linked a book from 1860 in another post so nothing earth shaking there. Pretending to make sense of it or prtedning to make sense of it is futile. It simply is what it is. Tesla eill manage and be worth $450 next year no mstter how you try and reasob it out

----------


## VWEvo

> The entire stock market is a scam. I linked a book from 1860 in another post so nothing earth shaking there. Pretending to make sense of it or prtedning to make sense of it is futile. It simply is what it is. Tesla eill manage and be worth $450 next year no mstter how you try and reasob it out



So are you suggesting we shouldn't have a stock market? The very thing you are calliing a scam, is the very thing currently propping up Tesla. Just outta curiosity, do you own a Tesla. Your obviously very passionate about the brand? As for it being worth $450 next year, I sure in hell aren't going to bet on it. If your so sure, you should put alot of money into Tesla.

----------


## killramos

Do you realize who you are talking to...

----------


## Buster

The ignore feature is inadequate. Should be extended to people quoting.

----------


## Xtrema

https://i.imgur.com/7TxwfNz.gifv

And all these Model 3 are built in tents by Calgary firm.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ach-its-target

----------


## killramos

Dont worry guys. Elon Musk to the rescue  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/sci-te...scue-1.4002565

----------


## Maxt

> Don’t worry guys. Elon Musk to the rescue 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/sci-te...scue-1.4002565



 Someone had to erect the tents...

----------


## revelations

> The ignore feature is inadequate. Should be extended to people quoting.



The mods have the ability to shadow ban this clown, but have chosen not to.




> Global Ignore
> This option allows you to effectively add a user or users to every member's 'Ignore List'. However, users in this list can still see their own posts and threads...



https://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/...ns_userbanning

----------


## Gestalt

> The mods have the ability to shadow ban this clown, but have chosen not to.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/...ns_userbanning



some of you are so rude and personal.  :Frown:  So hurtful

----------


## speedog

> some of you are so rude and personal.  So hurtful

----------


## themack89

As for the conspiracy theorists (re:Big Oil), I'm sure the Exxons and the Shells and the BPs have fantasized about it, but I just don't think it's feasible to pull that off these days. In recent years the only institution which has demonstrated it is capable of mass media manipulation and/or information censorship is Google. But even then, they struggle to engage censorship without someone noticing. 

SO, if I were to become a conspiracy theorist, that's who I would point my finger at. Without thinking about it too much, I can only come up with a few reasons they might want to bring down Tesla:

*Why:* Competition in AI & Automation Technologies. They may aim to bring down Tesla to draw from their talent pool? Steal their tech?
*Why Not:* Google has the highest concentration of Comp Sci PhD's per sqft on the entire planet in their Deepmind lab in London. They aren't hurting for talent.

*Why:* Google wants to enter the electric car business because they have better self-driving tech? (By "better" I mean it seems like they have fewer accidents, this is my personal speculation). By bankrupting Tesla, they could scoop up their assets on the cheap and have a nice head start.
*Why Not:* Google has a pattern of entering markets that make sense for them. Making cars is a horrendously industrious activity--it doesn't fit their business. In contrast, Elon Musk is a true industrialist: Rockets, Cars, Hyperloops, Supercharger Stations, Solar Grids, Gigafactories. He likes to build _Real Big Things_ to affect change. The biggest things Google builds are their data centers. Otherwise they focus on what makes sense for their space: Algorithms, Search Engines, Phones, Cameras, Home Assistants, Tablets, Cardboard boxes that you can retrofit with Raspberry Pis. _Small Electronic Gadgets & Software_. Moving beyond this, they would be competing with too many giants who will simply be better at the target business.

*Why:* Vendetta against Musk because of his views on AI. Pichai (Google CEO) thinks God's gift. Must thinks Devil. As long as Musk remains relevant (e.g. not bankrupt), people will listen to him with respect to the development, direction, and deployment of AI. A lot of the things he says about AI kind of conflict with what Google is trying to achieve, which is basically automating everything.
*Why Not:* It sounds kind of silly to try and bankrupt someone because you disagree with their views. They both know that AI's penetration into society cannot be stopped. They both know it's an arms race they don't want to lose--with that said, the arms race is more or less nationalistic anyways: China (Alibaba, Budai, Tencent) vs America (Google, Uber, Amazon, Tesla, Microsoft, Apple).

And just like that! I wasted a bunch of my time debating with myself about why Google wants to take down Tesla, with no substantiating evidence whatsoever.

----------


## Darkane

500,000 capacity plant being announced in China today. 

Elon caught a ferry over from the cave to promote it.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Well if you are going to handbuild the cars, lower labor costs are essential. 

Locating the plant in the USA only makes sense if it's going to be so highly automated that you might compare it to an "alien dreadnaught" or something.

----------


## rage2

> 500,000 capacity plant being announced in China today. 
> 
> Elon caught a ferry over from the cave to promote it.



This was actually announced in 2016. Agreement was made in 2017. Today's announcement is start of planning/permits for the build.

Tesla just needs $9b to build the place though. No partners have been announced. They don't have $9b, otherwise the factory would've been done long ago.

----------


## Darkane

> This was actually announced in 2016. Agreement was made in 2017. Today's announcement is start of planning/permits for the build.
> 
> Tesla just needs $9b to build the place though. No partners have been announced. They don't have $9b, otherwise the factory would've been done long ago.



I get all my Elon news from you guys and Autoblog lol. I’m out of the loop.

----------


## rage2

> I get all my Elon news from you guys and Autoblog lol. I’m out of the loop.



All good haha. Just want to make sure I can help clarify the headlines.

----------


## Xtrema

Also, the removal for 50% ownership rule in China for EV makers helps.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/tesla...ory-ownership/

The irony is, if anyone needs Chinese capital/partner, it's Tesla.

And in light of tariff war and China being soon to be biggest EV market in the world, the move of a Chinese factory is a must.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> The mods have the ability to shadow ban this clown, but have chosen not to.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/...ns_userbanning



He would realize it within a day, when people suddenly stopped falling for his trolling. We would need bot accounts to quote him and respond with nonsense every time he posted.

----------


## rage2

> And in light of tariff war and China being soon to be biggest EV market in the world, the move of a Chinese factory is a must.



I don't think the tariff war will be long term. Of course it still makes sense (to a small degree) to have a factory in China if you want to target the Chinese market, assuming you were struggling for capacity. I'd like to see Fremont hit 500k/year (10K/week) sustained first though. I mean, that was NUMMI's rate at 1/2 the square footage. I dunno why they'd want more capacity when they haven't even maximized Fremont yet, unless Elon truly enjoys burning money.

----------


## Xtrema

https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-hap...-th-1827321127

Tesla GT series car went into limp mode after overheating in 1.5 laps. 

I don't know what they are expecting when they don't have access to software and we already knew Model S goes into limp mode all the time on Autobahn.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> He would realize it within a day, when people suddenly stopped falling for his trolling. We would need bot accounts to quote him and respond with nonsense every time he posted.



 that's me!

----------


## supe

> I don't think the tariff war will be long term. Of course it still makes sense (to a small degree) to have a factory in China if you want to target the Chinese market, assuming you were struggling for capacity. I'd like to see Fremont hit 500k/year (10K/week) sustained first though. I mean, that was NUMMI's rate at 1/2 the square footage. I dunno why they'd want more capacity when they haven't even maximized Fremont yet, unless Elon truly enjoys burning money.



Pretty sure it has something to do with the Model Y, Semi, Truck and maybe the roadster. They need places to build these. Hopefully this new factory will not be in a tent. Also about your 10k/week, they have 2 years to get there. 

Elon also hinted at yet another gigafactory located in Europe, sounds like Germany is likely the winner. 

As a long term investor, I don't think Tesla needs to be profitable in the short term. They are still in hardcore growth mode. They just need to show that they CAN be profitable with high gross margins and lots of demand.

----------


## Xtrema

> They just need to show that they CAN be profitable with high gross margins and lots of demand.



So looks like Tesla just opened up Model 3 ordering to everyone. You can now skip the queue ahead of people holding out of the $35K version which probably will not be here any times soon.

Not sure how people would feel that their $1K reservation is now pointless and held hostage for a product that may never show up. Or when it does, the Fed tax (Or Ontario one) credit won't be there.




> I don't think the tariff war will be long term.



Tariff war will be around for at least 2-3 years. Nobody is a going to be a bitch and back down. Especially Trump.

----------


## rage2

> Pretty sure it has something to do with the Model Y, Semi, Truck and maybe the roadster. They need places to build these. Hopefully this new factory will not be in a tent. Also about your 10k/week, they have 2 years to get there. 
> 
> Elon also hinted at yet another gigafactory located in Europe, sounds like Germany is likely the winner. 
> 
> As a long term investor, I don't think Tesla needs to be profitable in the short term. They are still in hardcore growth mode. They just need to show that they CAN be profitable with high gross margins and lots of demand.



Clearly, Tesla doesn't know how to manufacture multiple vehicles in a single line, so I guess they'll have to build a brand new factory just to produce the Y, Semi, Truck, or Roadster. Do you know who can build multiple vehicles on a single line? Toyota. Do you know where they pioneered that technique that's been adopted by everyone else? NUMMI, the former life of Tesla's Fremont factory. Ironic. Remember how I said on page 1 their failure will be their inability to scale? We're witnessing it live right now.

As for profitability, Tesla needs to either be profitable in the short term, or they need to raise cash. One or the other, one of the narratives has to break. Both are so intertwined now it's not even funny. If they raise cash, they have to prove that they can pause their scale investments and actually make money in consecutive months strictly as an automaker. None of the bullshit quarter of 2016 where they shuffled enough stuff around to earn themselves a profit, and I'm being generous here, a single quarter of 3 consecutive months of profit is what they'll need at a minimum to get confidence and stock price back up to raise some needed capital for any sort of growth. They need to demonstrate that there's profitability in the $35k car that many are waiting for, and not just priming this quarter with higher margin AWD cars to pad the quarter for profitability. They need to show that their sales network's loss isn't going to continue to grow, since they're hiding a significant portion of their COGS there compared to traditional automotive accounting guidelines. I think investors are starting to turn the page on Tesla, and they need to demonstrate this to really move the stock forward prior to a capital raise and prior to their debt repayment.




> So looks like Tesla just opened up Model 3 ordering to everyone. You can now skip the queue ahead of people holding out of the $35K version which probably will not be here any times soon.
> 
> Not sure how people would feel that their $1K reservation is now pointless and held hostage for a product that may never show up. Or when it does, the Fed tax (Or Ontario one) credit won't be there.
> 
> 
> 
> Tariff war will be around for at least 2-3 years. Nobody is a going to be a bitch and back down. Especially Trump.



Reservation isn't pointless, if you're going for the SR Model 3. You're still in line for that. For any LR car especially AWD or performance, the reservation is useless.

2-3 years of tariffs is short term. They'll need way more time than that to get a factory built and operational.

----------


## Maxt

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ex-te...-sh&soc_trk=ma

or 
https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/11/ex...whistleblower/

See if it goes anywhere, but thats certainly heat he didn't need..

----------


## Gestalt

> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ex-te...-sh&soc_trk=ma
> 
> or 
> https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/11/ex...whistleblower/
> 
> See if it goes anywhere, but thats certainly heat he didn't need..



It won't. Thief and sabotager suddenly turned concerned citizen How noble.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> So why wasn't he charged then? He would have been if there was any real evidence. 
> 
> Seems more like smear and misdirection tactics by a paranoid CEO.



 Tesla is victim of biggest smear campaign since cholesterol

They dont do the smearing

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Tesla is victim of biggest smear campaign since cholesterol
> 
> They dont do the smearing



 :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :Bullshit!: 

Trollolololo is setting the bar in idiocy again, it's like a train wreck - you can't help but look.

----------


## Gestalt

> Trollolololo is setting the bar in idiocy again, it's like a train wreck - you can't help but look.



Once again another useless trollolololol post by JRSCOOLDUDE

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

They won’t be out of cash next month. I still firmly believe they’re going to eek out a profit for Q3. Combination of only selling higher margin 3’s (AWD and Performance only), as well as booking build fees as an order processing fee so they can immediately recognize revenue. No growth on service side either so pain for customers but losses will be flat. With no spend on anything else such as building more lines, their cash position should be flat/improve slightly. They can do this until the AWD and Performance order backlog thins out, which seems to already be the case. 

Tesla is going all in for Q3 so they can get their stock price up and raise cash again.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

hahha, holy shit

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...top-republican




> Earlier today, ProPublica published filings which revealed that Elon Musk is a top donor to a Republican PAC named Protect the House and aimed at keeping control of Congress. The PAC raised over $8 million in in the second quarter for Republican lawmakers hoping to fend off Democratic challengers.

----------


## themack89

> I think you are right, they may show a profit. However, the only way to do that is if they fudge everything and defer costs to the next quarter, or if they start cooking the books. 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if they go down the same path as Enron to try and keep that stock price up, if they haven't started already



If you tip them enough, you can get them to stamp anything. Tough to trust any company these days to be honest.

----------


## Xtrema

> hahha, holy shit
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...top-republican



It's going to be funny that all the EV hippies are keeping Trump brand of Republicans around.

Also Musk news:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8448366.html

Tldr, Musk called diver pedo when he called out Musk's sub as PR stunt.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Fuck, that clown is as bad as Trump when it comes to criticism



Only Twitter fanboys give him credits.

They already said they couldn't mount tanks, and his engineers built a sub bigger and longer than a typical diver.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...k-by-elon-musk

Hope diver sues his ass.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Tldr, Musk called diver pedo when he called out Musk's sub as PR stunt.



This MUST have been a typo or something. He clearly did it, but why that as an insult of all things? Maybe the guy is crazy, I will give you that.

As for the submarine, here is the news that ISN'T being reported (typical media bullshit)
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-...bmarine-2018-7

He kept at the submarine because he was ASKED to. There was no need for military personnel to die in this rescue mission, especially when a billionaire offered his resources at their disposal.

----------


## rage2

> This MUST have been a typo or something. He clearly did it, but why that as an insult of all things? Maybe the guy is crazy, I will give you that.



It wasn't a typo. The convo went further and he bet that it's true lol.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/15/el...uer-is-a-pedo/




> As for the submarine, here is the news that ISN'T being reported (typical media bullshit)
> http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-...bmarine-2018-7
> 
> He kept at the submarine because he was ASKED to. There was no need for military personnel to die in this rescue mission, especially when a billionaire offered his resources at their disposal.



This was reported, Elon wasn't ASKED to. He inserted himself into the situation, Stanton just said keep it going at the time because it sounded promising, or he was being nice about it. Problem is Elon and crew built the sub based on media reports of pinch points, which was wrong. To be fair, he did ask in that email correspondence for design direction but Stanton gave him zero details. Stanton later confirmed after Elon's tweet that the cave was too narrow for the sub.

I don't understand how the Thai ex-Navy Seal guy's death has anything to do with billionaire's help. The guy didn't drown or anything, he ran out of oxygen on land trying to push as hard as possible, so not sure how Elon would've saved the guy.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> he ran out of oxygen on land trying to push as hard as possible



All of the news outlets on google made it sound like the guy drowned.

Sure, he inserted himself into the situation, I never said he didn't. But he was asked to continue with the work. If they didn't want his help, they could have said no  :dunno:  Don't know exactly what you want from the guy, at the time they were having a HELL of a time figuring out how to save the kids, it was an ongoing crisis that was being reported as quite likely people were going to die, it really did not seem like the government had a handle on it.

----------


## rage2

> Don't know exactly what you want from the guy



1. You don't need to brag about your good deeds before you even do it.
2. You don't need to be a dick about it when you get called out for something you did that didn't work.

This wouldn't have even been a news story at all if he didn't plaster being a hero by adhering to #1. Fact that he's bragging about it makes it a PR stunt. I guess we'll see what happens with Flint water next?

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> If they didn't want his help, they could have said no  Don't know exactly what you want from the guy, at the time they were having a HELL of a time figuring out how to save the kids, it was an ongoing crisis that was being reported as quite likely people were going to die, it really did not seem like the government had a handle on it.



They had a team of experienced rescue divers on-site working on a solution, while Musk was making a sub thing over emails and what he saw on the news. Put yourself in the position of the rescue coordinator - there's the very real possibility that there is no way to get the 13 people out and they will die. If you tell Musk to fuck off with his half-assed sub that doesn't even fit in the cave, and in the end the kids die because there really was no way of saving them, Musk gets to claim he totally would have saved them with his contraption (even if it's not true), and you're immediately a media pariah for telling him off. Much better to let Musk go off and play with his toys while you're actually trying to save the kids.

----------


## Xtrema



----------


## Darkane

Our real life Bruce Wayne is hilarious. 

I’m starting to like him more. 

Yeah he’s nuts, eccentric, but he’s coming up with out of the box ideas. I’ll give him that.

----------


## Gestalt

Initial British consultants asked for the sub, and urged Musk to hurry (Tesla posted the emails on twitter after he was attacked for his effore to help).

Musk delivered personaly, and left it there just in case when somoene else decided was not usable.

Then this clown personally and agressive insults Musk for his effort. And he got hit back.  :ROFL!: 

So can you sue people you slander now becasue they slander you back? It can be argued that the divers insult publicized hurt tesla stock, more than the pedo thing about the diver.

as usual, the orchestrated media campaign agianst tesla continues burries what really happened and slants the story and excluding info.

----------


## rage2

> Initial British consultants asked for the sub, and urged Musk to hurry (Tesla posted the emails on twitter after he was attacked for his effore to help).



Nope.

This is the exact point in time where the sub idea was hatched. 

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015105500105412610

Since you don't know how to read, this is how it went down. Random twitter user suggests to Elon to help, at first he says Thai government has it under control, but by the next day had SpaceX team reach out and get details. What follows is a 2 day brainstorming session with other twitter users on what to build which eventually became this mini-sub.

So no, brits didn't ask him for anything. He inserted himself into the situation after realizing what a great PR opportunity this could be.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> snip - unintelligible garble - snip



I admire your 100% accuracy rate in being incorrect.

----------


## Gestalt

> Nope.
> 
> This is the exact point in time where the sub idea was hatched. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015105500105412610
> 
> Since you don't know how to read, this is how it went down. Random twitter user suggests to Elon to help, at first he says Thai government has it under control, but by the next day had SpaceX team reach out and get details. What follows is a 2 day brainstorming session with other twitter users on what to build which eventually became this mini-sub.
> 
> So no, brits didn't ask him for anything. He inserted himself into the situation after realizing what a great PR opportunity this could be.



Yes they asked for help and for him to hurry. He offered help first of course and was welcomed. He posted the email.

Your and the pedos claim that it was a pr stunt is hate based and holds no reality.

Slander by the pedo got him served.

----------


## rage2

The only one that got served is Elon today.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

> Bruce Wayne is a strong silent dignified character
> 
> Elon is more like The Riddler IMO



I was thinking Mad Hatter...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Let him be chairman, he owns enough shares for a board seat anyways. But agreed he really isn’t CEO material.

----------


## rage2

I don’t think they’ll fire him. There’s no way. The valuation of Tesla rides a lot on Elon himself being at the helm. Without him the valuation of Tesla might sink back to reality. Better to take a small loss now than a massive loss long term when they need the stock price up. 

What’s funny is if it did happen and he gets ousted, it’ll be the second time he’s gotten the boot but still hold a lot of shares and profit. This happened at PayPal when Musk wasn’t delivering, got kicked out by Thiel who quickly grew PayPal and sell to eBay, making Elon a fuck ton of money.

----------


## Darkane

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/...symphony-of-e/

Paid off, life threatened?? 

Pretty odd to turn around your decision like that.

----------


## lilmira

probably a pedo guy

----------


## flipstah

> https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/...symphony-of-e/
> 
> Paid off, life threatened?? 
> 
> Pretty odd to turn around your decision like that.




He said the build quality still sucks. But the packaging was impressive. 

You can date a crackhead with a great personality. 

Or maybe he doesn't wanna be called 'pedo' lol

----------


## Xtrema

> https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/...symphony-of-e/
> 
> Paid off, life threatened?? 
> 
> Pretty odd to turn around your decision like that.



Basically, it's exactly what you expected. People who are experts in electronics are doing those components well to cut cost.

If there is 30% margin on a model 3 that averages $50K a piece, that's $1.5B to the coffer if they can move 100K before year is out. Not enough to fund other initiatives but definitely a good lifeline.

----------


## rage2

> Basically, it's exactly what you expected. People who are experts in electronics are doing those components well to cut cost.
> 
> If there is 30% margin on a model 3 that averages $50K a piece, that's $1.5B to the coffer if they can move 100K before year is out. Not enough to fund other initiatives but definitely a good lifeline.



The problem is the pent up demand on the $50k Model 3 is only that high for so long. But if they can find that many buyers, kudos.

The autoblog summary is interestingly misleading.




> The big takeaway is that the Model 3 should be profitable, something that's been a struggle for automakers to achieve with EVs. Munro admits he was wrong about the car, initially thinking there was no way Tesla could make a profit on it. He said no other electric car is as profitable as the Model 3, something that should be a big boon for Tesla. Based on Munro & Associates' findings, the rear-view mirror on a Chevy Bolt EV costs more than $130 more than the mirror on the Tesla. Other components have a similar disparity.



The Bolt and Leaf are pretty thin margin cars, but they compete in the ~$35k space. The $50k LR + Premium + AP Model 3 is a high margin because of the options, so not a surprise right now that they're seeing 30%. That changes dramatically as they allow base LR RWD and eventually SR RWD "$35k" cars to sell. The rear view mirror comparison is also silly, the Bolt EV mirror costs that much more because it's a HD screen and not a mirror haha.

Glad to see the stock move up from this news tho. They really need it right now.

----------


## Gestalt

Cant expect good reporting from the media. Bought and paid for by the energy industry and lobby and tesla haters.

Quora nails the Thai sub situation accurately

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full...-rescue-effort

----------


## rage2

> Quora nails the Thai sub situation exactly how I want to believe it



FTFY.

I'm going to start using yahoo answers as my source with you in the future.

----------


## Buster

> FTFY.
> 
> I'm going to start using yahoo answers as my source with you in the future.



 :ROFL!:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Cant expect good reporting from the media. Bought and paid for by the energy industry and lobby and tesla haters.
> 
> Quora nails the Thai sub situation accurately
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full...-rescue-effort



The term "Retard" isn't politically correct anymore but, I think if i apologize for insulting them by the comparison to you in advance that it'll be ok this one time.

----------


## The_Penguin

> The term "Retard" isn't politically correct anymore but, I think if i apologize for insulting them by the comparison to you in advance that it'll be ok this one time.



 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :Clap:   :Clap:

----------


## benyl

> FTFY.
> 
> I'm going to start using yahoo answers as my source with you in the future.



 :ROFL!: 

Tesla stock down cause 1 out of 4 cars being cancelled. They aren't making the model people want. The $35K one that was promised. Guess the oil companies forced Elon to only sell the $100K version of the people's car.

It doesn't help that incentives are being cancelled in a few states / provinces. Must be the oil lobby.

----------


## Gestalt

> FTFY.
> 
> I'm going to start using yahoo answers as my source with you in the future.



Its exacrly as I said and it happened with the documents.

Haters are so blind.

- - - Updated - - -




> The term "Retard" isn't politically correct anymore but, I think if i apologize for insulting them by the comparison to you in advance that it'll be ok this one time.



Dont be so sensitive or was there a "bed anf breakfast" adventure in Thailand you are relating to?

----------


## Gestalt

> Tesla stock down cause 1 out of 4 cars being cancelled. They aren't making the model people want. The $35K one that was promised. Guess the oil companies forced Elon to only sell the $100K version of the people's car.
> 
> It doesn't help that incentives are being cancelled in a few states / provinces. Must be the oil lobby.



Stocks go up stocks go down. Good job figuring it out.

We thought about cancelling our 3 order when we picked up the used S but haven't yet.

----------


## supe

Theres a few interesting articles out recently, here is an article from the WSJ

https://www.wsj.com/articles/first-e...vel-1532022533




> This thing is magnificent, a little rainbow-farting space ship, so obviously representative of the next step in the history of autos.






> In the Performance version, two motors north and south equal 335 kW (450 hp) and digitally mastered all-wheel drive, with corner-exiting acceleration that will leave average BMW M4s with a soft auf Wiedersehen.



Killerramos you seem to like BMW's, what is auf weidersehen??


Here is another fun article, Hagerty (who is Hagerty?), Tesla Model S is the car of the decade:

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...y-greatest-car

----------


## Buster

"But most importantly, only one has made the electric car cool, and that’s the Tesla Model S."

Sorry, but Tesla is cool in the same way "designer" jeans sold at Costco are cool.

Teslas were cool at one point. They ain't cool now.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

M4 is slow, that’s why I drive a fast car now  :ROFL!: 




> "But most importantly, only one has made the electric car cool, and that’s the Tesla Model S."
> 
> Sorry, but Tesla is cool in the same way "designer" jeans sold at Costco are cool.
> 
> Teslas were cool at one point. They ain't cool now.



More importantly, people think those designer jeans at Costco will make them cool. Just like many believe driving a tesla car will make them cool. It doesn’t.

----------


## rage2

> Theres a few interesting articles out recently, here is an article from the WSJ
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/first-e...vel-1532022533
> 
> Killerramos you seem to like BMW's, what is auf weidersehen??



That article is all over the place. That’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say the P4S isn’t grippy. Either not enough tire for the weight, or suspension setup isn’t dialed in for cornering. With AWD it’ll def out accelerate an M3 on corner exits. 

I have no doubt that the Model 3P is a fun car to drive with 450hp and basically zero lag. The Model S is pretty fun, just couldn’t corner fast.

It’ll be interesting to see a proper head to head comparison with the M3/M4. The M4 is the fastest car around corners I’ve driven in its segment. No drama, just grips, especially in high speed turns. It’s weakness is straight line compared to its peers.

----------


## supe

> That article is all over the place. That’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say the P4S isn’t grippy. Either not enough tire for the weight, or suspension setup isn’t dialed in for cornering. With AWD it’ll def out accelerate an M3 on corner exits.



You'll be interested in this Elon tweet. 

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1020107968589676545




> Definitely. We gave up some grip & width in exchange for range. Would recommend stickier tires & wider on rear for best performance. You might get 3.3 sec 0-60 mph or better with optimized rims & tires.

----------


## rage2

> You'll be interested in this Elon tweet. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1020107968589676545



Good, I'm not full of shit then haha. Wonder how wide rears you can fit in there, and how the computers react with a non square setup.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> So basically Elon just made an uglier model S at the end of this whole "affordable + practical" sega
> 
> Idiot



 :ROFL!: 

your drooling with jealousy. I'm not sure why I find that satidfying from a guy that thinks he's smarter then Tesla  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Tesla... the genius? Or Tesla the company that swindled investors and then got so screwed up they started building "100K" versions of poorly made 35K cars in outdoor tents?
> 
> I don't drool for idiocy, I only face palm that motherfuckery.
> 
> 
> There is one possibility that Elon is actually a genius though; he might be a modern day Francisco d'Anconia. I mean he does act in ways politically where it might all fit together. I seriously doubt you'd understand the true depth of that reference, but it would be amazing.



 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!: 

The 40 year old student continues his bashing and jealousy over the serial billionaire

At this point im pretty sure theres something not quite right with you upstairs. Your kind of superioroty ocmplex frightens me.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> It will be a while before I'm 40, haha
> 
> It is hard not to feel superior when talking to you, it is one of your best qualities!



Intersting perception considering your wrong about anything we have talked about. Fueled by your superioroty compex mrr i could do better then tesla but except if only lucky @backtoschoolat40

----------


## Buster

> It will be a while before I'm 40, haha
> 
> It is hard not to feel superior when talking to you, it is one of your best qualities!



 :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## speedog

> Intersting perception considering your wrong about anything we have talked about. Fueled by your superioroty compex mrr i could do better then tesla but except if only lucky @backtoschoolat40



Ungh, you need to go back to grade school and just learn basic spelling, grammar and sentence structure.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> It really bugs you when people feel superior to you eh? 
> 
> I mean to be honest I make an active attempt to always put myself on the same level as everybody else, but I tend to start looking down on people that can't stick to topics and resort to things like personal insults or discrediting attempts. It is just childish. 
> 
> You are sure a silly worker bee mechanic, haha



 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  
 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  
 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

 :facepalm:

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...s-for-refunds/

Teslas's shares took a small hit after a report came out that they had asked their parts suppliers for refunds so they can meet their profitability goal for Q3. Desperate measures from Tesla to hit that mark.

----------


## rage2

> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...s-for-refunds/
> 
> Teslas's shares took a small hit after a report came out that they had asked their parts suppliers for refunds so they can meet their profitability goal for Q3. Desperate measures from Tesla to hit that mark.



Probably has nothing to do with profitability, and more to do with their cash situation. The stock's been a fucking roller coaster all month, down today, recover tomorrow. If calling someone a pedo doesn't move the stock long term, nothing will.

Betting starts now prior to the August 1st earnings call next week! I still believe it's another one of those magic calls where the numbers are massaged to hell and point to profitability for Q3 for a nice uptick in stock price.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> If calling someone a pedo doesn't move the stock long term, nothing will.




He was right to do so. Every naysayer of Musk or Tesla is obviously against sustainability and by extension, relentlessly fucking every kid of tomorrow.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Probably has nothing to do with profitability, and more to do with their cash situation. The stock's been a fucking roller coaster all month, down today, recover tomorrow. If calling someone a pedo doesn't move the stock long term, nothing will.
> 
> Betting starts now prior to the August 1st earnings call next week! I still believe it's another one of those magic calls where the numbers are massaged to hell and point to profitability for Q3 for a nice uptick in stock price.



You could well be right, I'm just going by what that and a couple other article were mentioning were probably motivations behind the request. Tesla likes to publically report based on their crazy nonstandard accounting with heavily massaged numbers, and nobody bats an eyebrow apart from a couple of memos from the SEC. By GAAP standards, they're nowhere near profitability, although there's an argument to be made that GAAP is an imperfect yardstick in Tesla's case due to their dealership model (or lack thereof). I fully expect a claim of profitability and a stock bump.

----------


## Maxt

> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...s-for-refunds/
> 
> Teslas's shares took a small hit after a report came out that they had asked their parts suppliers for refunds so they can meet their profitability goal for Q3. Desperate measures from Tesla to hit that mark.



 That's a grocery chain trick, wonder if they are asking for property tax deferrals and what not as well?

----------


## suntan

Looks like Elon's been tossing some salad.

----------


## Xtrema

Say bad thing about Tesla, Elon is going to call your boss.

https://jalopnik.com/get-a-load-of-t...usk-1827842961

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

Dude has thinner skin than Trump these days.

----------


## rage2

Anyone load up under $300 this week? Should be a good gamble.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Say bad thing about Tesla, Elon is going to call your boss.
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/get-a-load-of-t...usk-1827842961



The writer's pseudonym was Montana Skeptic. Elon basically says he fucked Montana good. Not gonna lie, I lol'd haha.




Longer back story, Montana Skeptic's boss is a good friend of Elon Musk. So ya, didn't take much to silence Montana with a phone call.

----------


## Gestalt

> Say bad thing about Tesla, Elon is going to call your boss.
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/get-a-load-of-t...usk-1827842961



Good for Musk. These "skeptics" harased the wall street guy that gave the 3 a good review enough he had to delete his twitter account.

lets face it we are in a workd of anonymous trolls lying. im glad he was exposed and silenced.

Same with trump. he is 100 percent right that some media is out to get him no matter what he does. journalism is dead, just lyers and trolls.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> lets face it we are in a workd of anonymous trolls lying. im glad he was exposed and silenced.




So by your own logic, you're in favour of coming clean and being banned? I like it.

----------


## Gestalt

> So by your own logic, you're in favour of coming clean and being banned? I like it.



Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE.

Your the troll. I havent seen anyone on this site troll as hard and often as you.

Jalopnik should be next for musk. i havent seen them publish anything accurate about tesla yet.
and this is a good summary

Hiding behind his anonymous persona on social media, Montana Skeptic went beyond just pushing the bear case.

He also used the platforms to send insults and attacks to Tesla bulls, bloggers, YouTubers, and reporters discussing anything that he saw as potentially being positive for Tesla, including myself on numerous occasions to the point where I had to block him.

----------


## suntan



----------


## rage2

I followed Montana Skeptic’s analysis for a while now. While he does frame his analysis a bit by cherry picking numbers to suit his narrative, it’s no different than the bulls, and even yourself Gestalt, in trying to show Tesla is more successful than it actually is. 

The Dan Neil situation was interesting. As a journalist (especially covering Tesla) you need to have thick skin and not get into a pissing match with those critical of your work. One way or another, you will get criticism covering Tesla as there’s such a huge divide between the bears and the bulls right now, fueled by Elon on his war on shorts. Here’s what it’s like on the other end of the spectrum: https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-i...omes-after-you

What Neil did was absolutely right, delete his Twitter and stop engaging in critics (or just ignore them like other journalists). It only became an issue because the Tesla/Elon army made it an issue in their war against shorts. 

At the end of the day, we need balanced coverage from both bears and bulls so that investors can cut through the rhetoric and make investment decisions based on their own analysis.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## Gestalt

Turns our burning through cash is an easy phrase to identify a tesla hater and troll. Not real accounting.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/17...lained-part-3/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> FYI: 
> Elon fucking a barn animal if such a thing were to happen.



Elon and his Tesla fans remind me of this:




Teslas are cool in the same way that snipping holes for your boobs is cool.

----------


## killramos

Love me a good mean girls reference  :ROFL!: 

Elon Musk, the male Regina George.

----------


## Gestalt

Haha jelaus haters gonna jealus and hate  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

How come none of the chicks in mean girls were hot? Never made any sense to me. May as well watch "bring it on".

----------


## killramos

I always had a soft soft for Amanda Seyfried  :Love:

----------


## ercchry

Lacey Chabert  :Love:

----------


## killramos

Classic

----------


## Buster

I actually found Gestalt in that video!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

> I'm kind of jealous of the kind of bliss needed to spell jealous wrong two totally different ways in a row and not give a care



That's true intellectual freedom man.

----------


## Gestalt

> That's true intellectual freedom man.



see, spelling is not a requirement for understanding. Amazing concept  :crazy nut: .

----------


## ercchry

> see, spelling is not a requirement for understanding. Amazing concept .



One could argue that the comprehension of the written language would be a skill that would transfer to the comprehension of other concepts... the foundation of learning even

----------


## Gestalt

i just google the references and pics, im a little cocnerened at the thigns you find entertaining and spend your time on  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!: 

little wonder your mean midnsets  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> Turns our burning through cash is an easy phrase to identify a tesla hater and troll. Not real accounting.
> 
> https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/17...lained-part-3/



Lol, that's worse than Montana Skeptic.

----------


## ianmcc



----------


## msommers

Mean Girls derail is acceptable, every time.

Especially Christmas dance gifs

----------


## Gman.45

Regular Cars (great channel) did a quick review of the Model 3. 

I've still got a modest investment in short on Tesla, not because I have any particular hate for Tesla or Musk, in fact it's sort of the opposite. I'd love to see Tesla somehow (miracle) unscrew it's very uncertain (putting a good spin on it) future, and succeed beyond all measure. We really wanted an S until we went with a different option for a somewhat luxury class car. I'd love to get a 3 as our beat around town/sub 3 hour trip/etc type car in a few years even and have that be the "it" car in that time period. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SSzF6htank

----------


## rage2

Looks like the Model 3 P is confirmed at 3.5s 0-60. That matches the Audi RS3 and pits both cars as direct competitors.

I’ve been in a Model 3 a few months ago, there’s one at the Chinook store now, highly recommend sitting in one to get a feel for what the Model 3 is about. I’m curious what you guys think.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Looks like the Model 3 P is confirmed at 3.5s 0-60. That matches the Audi RS3 and pits both cars as direct competitors.
> 
> I’ve been in a Model 3 a few months ago, there’s one at the Chinook store now, highly recommend sitting in one to get a feel for what the Model 3 is about. I’m curious what you guys think.



You big oil shill, comparing similarly priced products is proof of your total brainwashing. Only a fool compares things to other things. Tesla products in particular stand alone as shining beacons of humanities greatest achievements.

----------


## killramos

Similarly priced? You would be on meth to spend 110 grand on an rs3...

I really don’t like the model 3P interior, I’ll go take a look some time but I am going on pretty jaded.

Do we have any idea what kind of car the Y is going to be?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

Kinda like 'Y' does anyone think this is a good idea?

----------


## killramos

> The "Y" is going to be a cross over apparently



To be fair, I would totally buy that electric jag crossover (for my wife)

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I might go have a look, but you've pretty much got to expect that the one in the showroom is a "special" one build for the showroom with all of the defects fixed.




Besides being a AWESOME car in substance, better than any other in production. For you latte drinkers, the panel gaps suck, the interio looks plasticy, the door handles are (insert valley girl insult), and the colours are out of style for the fall season.

And oyu are right, a focus is way better looking.  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## Darell_n

Nobody in their right mind would choose a Model 3 for it's looks over a Focus.

----------


## dirtsniffer

wait the model 3 costs over 100k? I thought this was supposed to be the everyman car?

----------


## Gestalt

> Nobody in their right mind would choose a Model 3 for it's looks over a Focus.



 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!: 

Add some non fat mocha to your latte, you are getting irational.

----------


## speedog

> Nobody in their right mind would choose a Model 3 for it's looks over a Focus.




The fromt end view of a Model 3 makes me think of this every time...

----------


## killramos

> wait the model 3 costs over 100k? I thought this was supposed to be the everyman car?



Topped out Model 3 is apparently 110k CAD

Source: Rage2

----------


## dimi

I got a closeup look at the car. The exterior I actually quite like but the interior though is downright atrocious. 13.8 1/4 is pretty slow these days, although the immediate torque around town is great. All in all, its very hard to justify at $65gs CAD base for the LR.

----------


## Gestalt

The model 3 is a beast. 0-60 in 3.1 with 3 geeks in the car and 0-90mph is 6.3

The 0-90 is brutal. And yiu know there will be a ludicrous mode.

Damn gonna be some hurt feeling focus rs baristas. And mustang and camaro and sti owners.

https://youtu.be/wWsdib8BkaM

----------


## rage2

> To be fair, I would totally buy that electric jag crossover (for my wife)



There are a few big problems with the Jag. 

1. No fast charging at all. Don’t even try to take it out of town. 
2. Efficiency. It’s been measured at 40% less efficient than Model X. This means it has a larger battery to get the range. Because of #1 it makes charging really take a long time. 
3. Production problems right now. Delayed.




> wait the model 3 costs over 100k? I thought this was supposed to be the everyman car?



This is the top end performance model. It starts at $64,100 + $1,300 + GST = $68,670. 




> Topped out Model 3 is apparently 110k CAD
> 
> Source: Rage2



Source: Tesla.com



$106,000 + $1,300 + GST = $112,665.

When comparing the RS3, remember that you can’t get driving assistance (Autopilot) in the RS3.

----------


## killramos

> The fromt end view of a Model 3 makes me think of this every time...



Don’t worry, the 200k Model S looks the same.

----------


## msommers

Nick I think your obsession of hating Tesla may require a Dr's appt soon  :ROFL!: 

For $65k, there's a lot more options I'd rather have. C43 AMG 4Matic comes to mind, even get some fancy wheels with that.

And I have to agree, surprisingly, the Fiesta does look better. More edgy and aggressive. The Model 3 looks like an overweight Panamera.

----------


## killramos

Am I nick?

You are Matt right?

----------


## msommers

Nick knows who Nick is.

----------


## rage2

> For $65k, there's a lot more options I'd rather have. C43 AMG 4Matic comes to mind, even get some fancy wheels with that.



Model 3 AWD loaded: $78,000
C43 AMG loaded: $71,300

This is a good comparison, as both have level 2 autonomous driving and offer the same level of acceleration. The C43 is really loaded, even included the Recaros. The 2019 C43 also comes with MB’s 3rd generation of autonomous driving, which being map based is even more accurate than Tesla’s autopilot (I’ve tried it in the 2018 S class).

----------


## killramos

Except the interior is shit

Overall you are still paying a huge electric car premium is my main point.

80k for electrified Kia stinger.

----------


## KPHMPH

That is really what took us away from the P100D when we had an order last year...The S class interior BLEW the Tesla’s interior out of the water.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## speedog

> Yeah but here is the thing: on the weekend I drove from Vancouver to Calgary with a pair of quick fill ups that took less than 10 minutes combined. 
> 
> A base model 3 has a range of 350km (probably less IRL), so you'd have to be stopping more than once to charge, and even with supercharging you'd be looking at an hour or more just to roll get where you are going with no extra charge left. It turns it into a marathon or a 2 day journey. 
> 
> Ain't nobody got time for dat
> 
> 0-60 matters a lot less than being able to get where you are going reliably. In that sense, the Tesla is the slowest car. Ironic isn't it?



This. When EVs can be brought to an equivalent affordable level that makes them as convenient to use as an ICE vehicle then and only then will the masses start considering any EV. The masses also don't have anything else than 15A 110V outlets in their garages or outside of their homes and producing EVs that require anything else for even a halfway decent charging scenario just isn't going to fly. I personally would've had an EV years ago when regular commutes were a part of my daily routine but EV costs and charging issues/times just completely took them off of my radar.

----------


## Gestalt

The Vancouver road trip is gettong played out. The Tesla does everything that counts better 99.5 percent of the time. Buying an inferior car for that 0.5% of the driving you do is pretty dumb.

So rent something. Who drives to vancouver anyway. Join the 20th and fly.

----------


## rage2

> Damn gonna be some hurt feeling focus rs baristas. And mustang and camaro and sti owners.
> 
> https://youtu.be/wWsdib8BkaM



1 more day till earnings. Love this time of the quarter as both the bears and bull's BS are in full swing.

Since you've has been calling out everything by the bulls legit, here's some fun ones from this week gaining traction. Here's a Tesla Model 3 with drift mode hack by a Toronto Tesla modding company with some bold claims.






Great lap, destroyed the lap record. Or did it? Don't have to look far to figure out that's TMP, and even closer to find the actual lap record (1:12.1 in a 370Z), as it was driven by the same guy posting on the same account.




Another fun one, Tesla Model 3 vs Mustang

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...ght-drag-race/




Fuck that Model 3 is fast. Or is it? Take a look at the opposite traffic, as well as the LED blinking light. Shit looks kinda fast. Yea, the dude sped up the video, Mustang wasn't even racing haha.

Just saying Gestalt, EVERYONE is full of shit because they just want views. Or sell Tesla mods.

----------


## Xtrema

> Just saying Gestalt, EVERYONE is full of shit because they just want views. Or sell Tesla mods.



Or pimp referral code.

Seen a Model 3 in my parkade, mostly look ok. There are flaws but not as bad as the bad samples are. Probably will drop down to Chinook to check out the interior. But it does looks worse than Model S thru the window and Models S at best feels like a 2003 Accord.

----------


## mzdspd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAMczraBIM

I found this video/documentary to be pretty interesting.. he is questioning and going against the Tesla model with the idea that only Tesla can work on your Tesla. Check it out.

----------


## Xtrema

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAMczraBIM
> 
> I found this video/documentary to be pretty interesting.. he is questioning and going against the Tesla model with the idea that only Tesla can work on your Tesla. Check it out.



To be fair, this is exactly what Apple is about too, and Tesla got way more liability on a improperly repaired Model S than iMac.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw




> A base model 3 has a range of 350km (probably less IRL), so you'd have to be stopping more than once to charge, and even with supercharging you'd be looking at an hour or more just to roll get where you are going with no extra charge left. It turns it into a marathon or a 2 day journey.




55kwh, ~160wh/km, 350km range.

Consider if you charge from 20-80% for the fastest speed of 100kw, that should give you 33kwh for 210km per 20min charge.

Consider leaving Vancouver fully charged, Supercharger stops will be Meritt, Revelstoke (very light foot), Golden, Canmore. So 80-90mins vs 10min of gas. But only if Supercharger is providing 100kw. 

Of course, if you can afford 80kwh LR model, you can potentially cut 1 stop out of this trip.

Just take more breaks and eat more along the way. Just hope there are good food at the Superchargers. But of course, the real issue with Superchargers is this:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...station.66722/

Not surprised as Qualcomm HQ is the only Supercharger available at San Diego. That place is a mad house and always have cars queue up and block the entrance to Qualcomm.

----------


## msommers

> The Vancouver road trip is gettong played out...Buying a ... car for that 0.5% of the driving you do is pretty dumb.



Honestly, solid point.

However for people who enjoy hiking/outdoors stuff, going from Calgary to Lake Louise you're flirting with running out of power without having to stop in Canmore to charge.

----------


## Xtrema

> The Vancouver road trip is gettong played out. The Tesla does everything that counts better 99.5 percent of the time. Buying an inferior car for that 0.5% of the driving you do is pretty dumb.



Yet Calgary is full of F150s.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> Honestly, solid point.
> 
> However for people who enjoy hiking/outdoors stuff, going from Calgary to Lake Louise you're flirting with running out of power without having to stop in Canmore to charge.



What's the calculation on the average miles needed/average fuel savings to compensate for the higher purchase price. I bet it's only 5% of the population that would see a benefit on a NPV basis. So you're left with the same conundrum for the Tesla.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Lots of families have more than one vehicle and probably at least one of those is unsuitable for driving longer distances for one reason or another. This is a big deal for a small percentage of the population. 

Range is the one thing I DON'T have any concerns over for current generation EV's, including Tesla.

----------


## rage2

> What's the calculation on the average miles needed/average fuel savings to compensate for the higher purchase price. I bet it's only 5% of the population that would see a benefit on a NPV basis. So you're left with the same conundrum for the Tesla.



It'd be interesting to calculate the savings between fuel vs electricity. Not many people bring it up, but there are cases of sticker shock when it comes to electric bills. This one popped up today, new Model X owner in MA getting sticker shock after 2 weeks of electric usage.



In Alberta, we'd have to calculate it with all the riders that are usage based, as that makes up something like 70% of our electric utility costs.




> The model 3 is a beast. 0-60 in 3.1 with 3 geeks in the car and 0-90mph is 6.3
> 
> The 0-90 is brutal. And yiu know there will be a ludicrous mode.
> 
> Damn gonna be some hurt feeling focus rs baristas. And mustang and camaro and sti owners.
> 
> https://youtu.be/wWsdib8BkaM



After further analysis, this video is also wrong. It's not 3.15 seconds, it's 3 seconds and 15 frames, which works out to 3.5s. Times are confirmed out there at 0-60 in 3.5s, 0-90mph at 7.0s, pretty much identical straight line performance to a C63S. Interestingly enough, the 2 cars are only $50 apart in base price, and similarly spec'd, the C63S Sedan is $4850 cheaper than the Model 3 Performance.

Anyways, enjoy the show tonight kids. Earnings call in a little under 2 hours. http://ir.tesla.com/events/event-det...and-qa-webcast

----------


## Gestalt

> It'd be interesting to calculate the savings between fuel vs electricity. Not many people bring it up, but there are cases of sticker shock when it comes to electric bills. This one popped up today, new Model X owner in MA getting sticker shock after 2 weeks of electric usage.
> 
> 
> 
> In Alberta, we'd have to calculate it with all the riders that are usage based, as that makes up something like 70% of our electric utility costs.
> 
> 
> After further analysis, this video is also wrong. It's not 3.15 seconds, it's 3 seconds and 15 frames, which works out to 3.5s. Times are confirmed out there at 0-60 in 3.5s, 0-90mph at 7.0s, pretty much identical straight line performance to a C63S. Interestingly enough, the 2 cars are only $50 apart in base price, and similarly spec'd, the C63S Sedan is $4850 cheaper than the Model 3 Performance.
> 
> Anyways, enjoy the show tonight kids. Earnings call in a little under 2 hours. http://ir.tesla.com/events/event-det...and-qa-webcast





The usage is Yuge. I drive quite a bit more, and the S is 4 or 5x less in fuel (electricty) than the wifes E series on gas. my first month having it I put about 1800km on it and the elctric bill was about 450 kwh and $40 more then normal

your attempt to downplay the performance by counting frams is cute, but they have the actual timer in the car  :ROFL!:  Every telsa to date is faster then oficialy advertised. and please, try that here in edomonton and calgary, and your c63s will look like a fiesta or festiva or whatever girl car the other guy drives.  :Wink: 

Either may, your love for the gas guzzler euro crap that will lose 70% of its value in 7 years is cute/ but it got its ass handed to it by an electric car. stop and think about that. mighty merceds building cars for 100 years is betsed in every way by a golf cart company in its ifnacny. Maintencnace costs, fuel costs, depreciation, speed, repairs and cool factor.

----------


## rage2

> The usage is huge. I drive quite a bit, and the S is 4 or 5x less in fuel (electricty) than the wifes E series on gas.
> 
> your attempt to downplay the performance by counting frams is cute, but they have the actual timer in the car  Every telsa to date is faster then oficialy advertised. and please, try that here in edomonton and calgary, and your c63s will look like a fiesta or festiva or whatever girl car the other guy drives. 
> 
> Either may, your love for the gas guzzler euro crap that will lose 70% of its value in 7 years is cute/ but it got its ass handed to it by an electric car. stop and think about that. mighty merceds building cars for 100 years is betsed in every way by a golf cart company in its ifnacny. Maintencnace costs, fuel costs, depreciation, speed, repairs and cool factor.



I'm not downplaying anything. 3.5s is fast. I'm just laughing at how everyone is purposely manipulating numbers this week. Good or bad, I want to ensure accuracy of news being spread around. There is no timer in the car, it's been confirmed by the guys that made the video that the 15 and 22 in 3.15 and 3.22 are not seconds but frame numbers in Adobe Premier.

Tesla may have a great drivetrain, but that's about it from my perspective. And Tesla's depreciate too so I dunno WTF your point is.

----------


## rage2

Q2 report is out.

http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/723...e-9ecac0ad7712

Beat expectations, nothing but good news. 10% gains by tomorrow, 20% by next week.

----------


## killramos

What were the eps losses expected to be for Q2?

I am seeing -3.61 for analyst estimates for the quarter, vs -4.22 actual?

So essentially they got better at making cars but the company’s finances are still in the toilet? G&A is still tanking their earnings. 

As for cash, they seem to have basically traded it for inventory which could help Q3 as musk alluded to with deliveries exceeding what they make.

----------


## speedog

> The usage is Yuge. I drive quite a bit more, and the S is 4 or 5x less in fuel (electricty) than the wifes E series on gas. my first month having it I put about 1800km on it and the elctric bill was about 450 kwh and $40 more then normal
> 
> your attempt to downplay the performance by counting frams is cute, but they have the actual timer in the car  Every telsa to date is faster then oficialy advertised. and please, try that here in edomonton and calgary, and your c63s will look like a fiesta or festiva or whatever girl car the other guy drives. 
> 
> Either may, your love for the gas guzzler euro crap that will lose 70% of its value in 7 years is cute/ but it got its ass handed to it by an electric car. stop and think about that. mighty merceds building cars for 100 years is betsed in every way by a golf cart company in its ifnacny. Maintencnace costs, fuel costs, depreciation, speed, repairs and cool factor.



Your $40 usage seems low. This guy had an average increase of just under 955kwh if one takes the average of the previous 12 months and 955kwh on my current Enmax plan would mean an additional $136.51 on my monthly bill - this takes into account all of the riders/fees/whatever that are based upon one's usage.

Now his total electricity costs are about 1.5 times what mine are but never the less, you must have an incredible electricity plan because your per kwh charges equate to 8.9 cents while my total kWh charges are running at about 14.2 cents. Maybe it's just the marth that you're using.

----------


## benyl

Tesla won’t let you fix it if it is broke....

----------


## rage2

Q2 call was great. Lots of distraction from the poor numbers. New autopilot computer, minimal cash burn (its hidden in AP), huge revenue growth (but steeper losses). Keep focusing on the positives, up 10% after hours already. So predictable haha.

----------


## Gestalt

> Your $40 usage seems low. This guy had an average increase of just under 955kwh if one takes the average of the previous 12 months and 955kwh on my current Enmax plan would mean an additional $136.51 on my monthly bill - this takes into account all of the riders/fees/whatever that are based upon one's usage.
> 
> Now his total electricity costs are about 1.5 times what mine are but never the less, you must have an incredible electricity plan because your per kwh charges equate to 8.9 cents while my total kWh charges are running at about 14.2 cents. Maybe it's just the marth that you're using.



The 1800 was my first month rates were much lower 40 is probably high for 1800km. Looking at last years bills i can't tell. Tbat month was uo over previous but we used ac more.

Right now im only driving about 1000 km. That just around 200kwh

----------


## speedog

> The 1800 was my first month rates were much lower 40 is probably high for 1800km. Looking at last years bills i can't tell. Tbat month was uo over previous but we used ac more.
> 
> Right now im only driving about 1000 km. That just around 200kwh



The marth still isn't adding up. What exactly is your total electricity usage charges per kWh including all the riders/fees? It's all on your bill, basically take your total electricity charge and divide it by the kwh for that same period. Like I said, 8.9 cents per kWh seems very, very low considering base electricity is around not far from that and then one still has all the riders/fees which are more than the electricity price itself.

----------


## dirtsniffer

You're asking way of that wrench monkey.

----------


## rage2

> The 1800 was my first month rates were much lower 40 is probably high for 1800km. Looking at last years bills i can't tell. Tbat month was uo over previous but we used ac more.



Buy electric car. Electric bill goes up. Blames Air Conditioning.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

> The marth still isn't adding up. What exactly is your total electricity usage charges per kWh including all the riders/fees? It's all on your bill, basically take your total electricity charge and divide it by the kwh for that same period. Like I said, 8.9 cents per kWh seems very, very low considering base electricity is around not far from that and then one still has all the riders/fees which are more than the electricity price itself.



Nothing wrong, riders and fees change with usage and price. A few months ago electricty was 3 cents a kwh, and my crypto machines were all full tilt. Now its 6.8 with all the fees jacked and im onky running profitable stuff.

To go the light usage now about 1000km is right inline at 200kwh. At roughly 20 cents total thats still $40. A dodge journey costs actual $130 to do the same or a c63s would be 170 in premium.

And if you are like my wife, there is a ton of free chsrging in the city, i just dont bother its not even pocket change to charge it and im hard pressed to notice. We even got the free supercharger trasnferd since wd bought used from tesla.

----------


## speedog

> Buy electric car. Electric bill goes up. Blames Air Conditioning.



Fuck that noise, his Tesla is probably a positive net contributor to the grid.

----------


## killramos

170 bucks? Maybe if you drive like a pussy.

----------


## Gestalt

> Buy electric car. Electric bill goes up. Blames Air Conditioning.



Our house is complicated. Ac is new a a couple years ago, solar panels new-ish and I added 3 surplus ones i found on ebay this spring. Im a princess now only used ac to handle anything over 27 now it sits at 22. We secondary suited last year i think and thst added a hrv etc.

Im struggling to see the tesla usage and thats honest. Im sorry that goes against your hate feelings.  :Wink:

----------


## Gestalt

> Fuck that noise, his Tesla is probably a positive net contributor to the grid.



Did you know when the zombies come you can power your house from it for a few days?

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Im struggling to see the tesla usage and thats honest. Im sorry that goes against your hate feelings.




You struggle to see a forest for the trees so it's pretty understandable that you can't figure out how charging something affects your electrical usage. At least you're a consistent troll.

Okay, now deflect in true Musky fashion but saying I'm the reall troll. Good boy!

----------


## Gestalt

> You struggle to see a forest for the trees so it's pretty understandable that you can't figure out how charging something affects your electrical usage. At least you're a consistent troll.
> 
> Okay, now deflect in true Musky fashion but saying I'm the reall troll. Good boy!



Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE.
you never add to the conversation. thats why your the troll

----------


## kenny

> Our house is complicated. Ac is new a a couple years ago, solar panels new-ish and I added 3 surplus ones i found on ebay this spring. Im a princess now only used ac to handle anything over 27 now it sits at 22. We secondary suited last year i think and thst added a hrv etc.
> 
> Im struggling to see the tesla usage and thats honest. Im sorry that goes against your hate feelings.



I get it, I drove about 3500km last month but I spent pretty much nothing on gas. I had a ton of transactions on my Visa last month and I also had to buy gas for my pressure washer. My bill is pretty complicated and I struggle to see where the pay at the pump charges were when I filled my car.

----------


## killramos

:ROFL!:  Gold

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> you never add to the conversation. thats why your the troll



I always add as much substance to my replies and you do with your posts.

 :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> Im sorry that goes against your hate feelings.



Just to be clear, the only hate is the hate of misleading data.

----------


## Xtrema

» Click image for larger version

https://www.enmax.com/home/understan...ur-bill#targ_2

If you are paying 6cent per kwh, you are basically paying 18 cents, worse case scenario. But some of the fees are fixed cost, so it gets cheaper per kwh the more electricity you use.

And Gesalt, you see that 50%? Get ready for that to turn into 60%-65% soon. So you need to buy more solar panels and batteries to get off the grid.

----------


## suntan

Like that fuck face actually pays an electricity bill.

----------


## Gestalt

> I get it, I drove about 3500km last month but I spent pretty much nothing on gas. I had a ton of transactions on my Visa last month and I also had to buy gas for my pressure washer. My bill is pretty complicated and I struggle to see where the pay at the pump charges were when I filled my car.



Believable but you got it backwards. Compared to my total bill the tesla is the pressure washer. Installing the ac unit and hrv added more monthly then the car.

Sorry you dont like that.

Edit. Forgot the crypto mining. Even last fall they were adding about $300 a month to my bill

----------


## Gestalt

> https://www.enmax.com/home/understan...ur-bill#targ_2
> 
> If you are paying 6cent per kwh, you are basically paying 18 cents, worse case scenario. But some of the fees are fixed cost, so it gets cheaper per kwh the more electricity you use.
> 
> And Gesalt, you see that 50%? Get ready for that to turn into 60%-65% soon. So you need to buy more solar panels and batteries to get off the grid.



~200kwh x 18 cents is? Thats literally what i.paid for ajerry can of gas for the mower


Only fixed cost i see is the $6 service fee. The rate rider, delivery and tranmsisoon fluctuate with price and use. More panels are coming of course. Trying to add a few a year. Unfortunately the surplus deals in the us dried up. Might have to order a pallett from alibaba

----------


## Xtrema

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/22581/t...mance-ten-fold

Interesting, went to ASIC for v3 Autopilot hardware.

----------


## Gestalt

> http://www.thedrive.com/tech/22581/t...mance-ten-fold
> 
> Interesting, went to ASIC for v3 Autopilot hardware.



I would have assumed that all along. In the mining world tje Asics speeds are thousands of times faster then what I thought was a fast computer.

----------


## speedog

> ~200kwh x 18 cents is? Thats literally what i.paid for ajerry can of gas for the mower
> 
> 
> Only fixed cost i see is the $6 service fee. The rate rider, delivery and tranmsisoon fluctuate with price and use. More panels are coming of course. Trying to add a few a year. Unfortunately the surplus deals in the us dried up. Might have to order a pallett from alibaba



I'd be curious how much outlay you have into your solar panel setup because those are costs that have to be figured onto your monthly electricity consumption as well.

Marth, so convenient for some.

----------


## Gestalt

> I'd be curious how much outlay you have into your solar panel setup because those are costs that have to be figured onto your monthly electricity consumption as well.
> 
> Marth, so convenient for some.



Solar is a novelty. I started doing it before i thought id but an electric car. Simply its the way the world is going, so i jumped on before they grandfather bidirectional metering. Relying on dirty industry and being their victim and becoming energy independent is my reason.

I only buy surplus. But one new, at retail $240 panel and $150 micro inverter will make you $2000 worth of electricity at todays prices over its warantee life of 25 years.

----------


## kenny

> Believable but you got it backwards. Compared to my total bill the tesla is the pressure washer. Installing the ac unit and hrv added more monthly then the car.
> 
> Sorry you dont like that.
> 
> Edit. Forgot the crypto mining. Even last fall they were adding about $300 a month to my bill



It cost me only $5 for gas for the pressure washer, and will likely have leftover for the snow blower this winter. I don't have an odometer on my snow blower so it probably doesn't actually use up any gas. Either way, that is less than the gas for my car since my bill is complicated and I can't find out the cost easily.

----------


## speedog

> Solar is a novelty. I started doing it before i thought id but an electric car. Simply its the way the world is going, so i jumped on before they grandfather bidirectional metering. Relying on dirty industry and being their victim and becoming energy independent is my reason.
> 
> I only buy surplus. But one new, at retail $240 panel and $150 micro inverter will make you $2000 worth of electricity at todays prices over its warantee life of 25 years.



All your cabling was free? And how do your panels charge your Tesla at night? And the solar panel industry, dirty too.

----------


## killramos

That’s just the big oil shills talking

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> All your cabling was free? And how do your panels charge your Tesla at night? And the solar panel industry, dirty too.



Cable is dirt cheap, I have the crimpers, I did it all myslef minus final hook up to grid whcih was $700 with permit when the system originally went up and only a master electrician can sigh off. I layed it out to be easily expandable. the meter is bi directional, so i sell back day time, buy back night time. I am not net positive yet, working at it. you dont wnat to be positive all the time, then they classify you as commercial, and all new rates and rules come into play. at that time, the next step would be batteries.

all industry is dirty, solar is 1000s of times cleanr then tar and oil. for one thing, instead of burning a barell of tar in your suv once a week, you use a barell of materials to make a panel that lasts 30 years. its a no brainer.

It's obvious you are not being genuine so i will no longer offer genuine resposnes to you, marth wizard.

----------


## killramos

I need to get me one of these Tar burning SUVs, sounds way cheaper than gas or diesel.

----------


## Gestalt

> It's funny; if you were to compare our lifestyles, your carbon footprint and energy consumption is probably 4 to 5 times more than mine.
> 
> Always seems the loudest advocates are the worst offenders
> 
> Stop running the world will ya?



maybe. your job has no carbon footprint? thatts what crypto is, a job, not personal use.

- - - Updated - - -




> I need to get me one of these Tar burning SUV’s, sounds way cheaper than gas or diesel.



a barell of tar, 3 barells of water, half a barell of cencerous chemicals, 30% of the enrgy from the previous barell of tar, and you get 2/3 a barell of gas for your suv that may last a week or 2. sounds like a great thing compared to a panel. 30 years of producing energy with no further emissions.

----------


## Maxt

Isn't the price of electricity right now being lowered by a rate cap subsidy right now? Add to the public debt every km driven. Great..

----------


## Gestalt

> Isn't the price of electricity right now being lowered by a rate cap subsidy right now? Add to the public debt every km driven. Great..



free markets and privitization was a great thing, eh?  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

I fix things. I make them go.

Please tell me where you "work", Gestalt, so I can totally avoid that shit show of a place.

----------


## Maxt

> free markets and privitization was a great thing, eh?



 Well it was.

----------


## speedog

> Cable is dirt cheap, I have the crimpers, I did it all myslef minus final hook up to grid whcih was $700 with permit when the system originally went up and only a master electrician can sigh off. I layed it out to be easily expandable. the meter is bi directional, so i sell back day time, buy back night time. I am not net positive yet, working at it. you dont wnat to be positive all the time, then they classify you as commercial, and all new rates and rules come into play. at that time, the next step would be batteries.
> 
> all industry is dirty, solar is 1000s of times cleanr then tar and oil. for one thing, instead of burning a barell of tar in your suv once a week, you use a barell of materials to make a panel that lasts 30 years. its a no brainer.
> 
> It's obvious you are not being genuine so i will no longer offer genuine resposnes to you, marth wizard.



 :Cry:  I'm not being genuine.  :Cry: 

How can I go on living without genuine responses from you? You make me.

SP, he's all yours.

----------


## Buster

I think this thread makes me dumber every time i click on it

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> i think this thread makes me gestalter every time i click on it




ftfy

----------


## benyl

> ftfy



“Another troll post by jrscooldude “

Let me save gestalt the trouble.

----------


## rage2

I post in this thread for 2 reasons. Discussion of stock price and things affecting it, and to engage with Gestalt for lolz.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

> You didn't last very long, haha
> 
> I am genuinely finding it hilarious when I am reflecting on how "green" my lifestyle compared to the green "wannabes". He'll, my condo is actually on the False Creek Neighbourhood Energy Recycling network, which means that even if I drove a Hummer H1 all day long I'd still have less of an impact than Gestalt, lol. 
> 
> Just goes to show all this electric car nonsense is just that, a bunch of greenie wannabes that like the novelty, but don't actually nut up and walk the walk.
> 
> That is really the source of my anti-telsa sentiment. It is all just a bunch of feel good crap.



You can't show off smug by sitting in a condo.

----------


## VWEvo

> You didn't last very long, haha
> 
> 
> 
> Just goes to show all this electric car nonsense is just that, a bunch of greenie wannabes that like the novelty, but don't actually nut up and walk the walk.
> 
> That is really the source of my anti-telsa sentiment. It is all just a bunch of feel good crap.



Personally, I think the bullshit you put out is just as dumb as Gesalt. You keep saying the stupidest stuff in this thread, in the mean time people are sitting here getting rich working that Tesla stock up and down all day. We get it, you hate tesla, "real car guys" wouldn't drive a tesla, your smarter than elon blah blah blah. This thread used to be good until you and Gesalt pretty much ruined it. For the record, I don't drive a Tesla because i'm trying to be "greener". I drive a Tesla because its one the best cars I've ever owned. No I don't care that you can't drive it to Vancouver, who fucken cares. I'm just happy to get a unique, awesome driving experience, and I get fantastic parking at Cross Iron Mills.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Q2 report is out.
> 
> http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/723...e-9ecac0ad7712
> 
> Beat expectations, nothing but good news. 10% gains by tomorrow, 20% by next week.



Looks like doesn't have to wait until next week.

----------


## rage2

> Looks like doesn't have to wait until next week.



Unless it closes at 360 today, it’s going to be next week. Planning to get out on 25% gains. I have no faith in Tesla in the long term, just trying to make a quick buck on the peaks and valleys.

----------


## supe

> Personally, I think the bullshit you put out is just as dumb as Gesalt. You keep saying the stupidest stuff in this thread, in the mean time people are sitting here getting rich working that Tesla stock up and down all day. We get it, you hate tesla, "real car guys" wouldn't drive a tesla, your smarter than elon blah blah blah. This thread used to be good until you and Gesalt pretty much ruined it. For the record, I don't drive a Tesla because i'm trying to be "greener". I drive a Tesla because its one the best cars I've ever owned. No I don't care that you can't drive it to Vancouver, who fucken cares. I'm just happy to get a unique, awesome driving experience, and I get fantastic parking at Cross Iron Mills.



Thank you, I quite beyond for a long time because of this stupid BS. I question why I even stick around. I only give credit to Rage for being a skeptic, but stays focused on the whole point of this thread, well and you, for being an actual owner. I can't wait to get my 3, almost all the reviews are fantastic. VWEvo, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the 3?

As per the stock price, Rage you pretty much called it pre-earnings, did you have any money in? I'm looking at forecasts for Q3, it looks tight but they could be close to break even on net profit and cash flow but Elon is still saying both will be positive in Q3 and beyond. I'm also hearing Shanghai factory could come in a lot cheaper than normal factories. I wonder if Tencent's investment has anything to do with the fact that Tesla said they will not need to raise cash. 

https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/02/inv...ory/index.html

----------


## HiTempguy1

> You are making this extremely difficult to troll Gestalt



Yea, but you aren't trolling mr. "the world is going to end due to overpopulation and lack of resources"  :ROFL!: 

It's ok to admit you irrationally hate Tesla and Musk  :dunno:

----------


## rage2

> Thank you, I quite beyond for a long time because of this stupid BS. I question why I even stick around. I only give credit to Rage for being a skeptic, but stays focused on the whole point of this thread, well and you, for being an actual owner. I can't wait to get my 3, almost all the reviews are fantastic. VWEvo, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the 3?
> 
> As per the stock price, Rage you pretty much called it pre-earnings, did you have any money in? I'm looking at forecasts for Q3, it looks tight but they could be close to break even on net profit and cash flow but Elon is still saying both will be positive in Q3 and beyond. I'm also hearing Shanghai factory could come in a lot cheaper than normal factories. I wonder if Tencent's investment has anything to do with the fact that Tesla said they will not need to raise cash. 
> 
> https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/02/inv...ory/index.html



Yea, bought a few hundred shares at 295. 

Just because I don’t find value in Tesla’s doesn’t mean I’m not a car guy. Let me know when your 3 performance arrives. Would love to see it in person. I’m on the list for a test drive when Chinook gets it.

I think they’ll eek out a profit and cash positive for Q3. I don’t think the valuation will stay up because of it since they’ll be flat for growth as they stop/slow down capital expenditures. The valuation today has a celing, it’s valued at where they want to be in displacing their competitors. Have to remember they need to get to 10x their current production/sales to justify the current valuation. Anything to derail the path and there’s nowhere to go but down, hence the volatility. Still need more time to be sure on Q3, a little too early to call right now. All it takes are some stupid tweets and news to tank the stock again and repeat this cycle.

----------


## Gestalt

> Yea, bought a few hundred shares at 295. 
> 
> Just because I don’t find value in Tesla’s doesn’t mean I’m not a car guy. Let me know when your 3 performance arrives. Would love to see it in person. I’m on the list for a test drive when Chinook gets it.
> 
> I think they’ll eek out a profit and cash positive for Q3. I don’t think the valuation will stay up because of it since they’ll be flat for growth as they stop/slow down capital expenditures. The valuation today has a celing, it’s valued at where they want to be in displacing their competitors. Have to remember they need to get to 10x their current production/sales to justify the current valuation. Anything to derail the path and there’s nowhere to go but down, hence the volatility. Still need more time to be sure on Q3, a little too early to call right now. All it takes are some stupid tweets and news to tank the stock again and repeat this cycle.



 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!: 

- - - Updated - - -




> Yea, but you aren't trolling mr. "the world is going to end due to overpopulation and lack of resources" 
> 
> It's ok to admit you irrationally hate Tesla and Musk



It's called covering his feeling of inadequcay with id or ego or whatever. Musk is a million times more succesful, so sp goes all sour graps on his ass, actually beleiving he's smarter and coulda done it if only x happened for him, while in the arm chair in his condo :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> 



Haha jelaus haters gonna jealus and hate  :ROFL!:

----------


## Gestalt

> Haha jelaus haters gonna jealus and hate



Dont hurt your arm patting yourself on the back evenna broken clock is right twice a day.

Your ever faulty analysis isnt why the stock rose. It rose because of the month long baseless media and oil industry smear campaign lowered it in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

And Kramer nailed it last nite. Tesla better not start making consistent profits or hell have to value it like a car compnay instead of a world changing technology company

----------


## tonytiger55

If we look back on some of the interiors of the German vehicles. Much of the design is geared towards the driver.
For example, the angling of the centre console is slightly turned towards the driver. This makes sense as a driver. 



This is not so in the Tesla 3. The Ipad screen thingy is slap bang in the centre. Same with some other manufacturers. Why is that..?

----------


## speedog

> If we look back on some of the interiors of the German vehicles. Much of the design is geared towards the driver.
> For example, the angling of the centre console is slightly turned towards the driver. This makes sense as a driver. 
> 
> This is not so in the Tesla 3. The Ipad screen thingy is slap bang in the centre. *Same with some other manufacturers.* Why is that..?



You mean like modern BMW's?

----------


## killramos

Everything is still tilted towards the driver in a bmw, its just more subtle.

As for why the Tesla is in the middle? Because you only buy one to show off for your passengers  :ROFL!: 

Do 3s have a HUD? Where do you see your speed?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> If I had to guess, it probably makes it easy to switch the setup from RHD to LHD
> 
> Every time I see a Tesla dash it makes me think of the original Toyota Echo



Echo was built better then than the Model 3 is now.

----------


## rage2

> Dont hurt your arm patting yourself on the back evenna broken clock is right twice a day.



In the last 12 months, I’m up 63% on TSLA while the stock is actually down 3%. Maybe I should start selling broken clocks.  :ROFL!: 

A look back at all my predictions since the first week of July, pretty much spot on. Only thing I got wrong is Q2 loss, I expected it to narrow but instead they had the worst loss in the history of the company. Even nailed their production rate (current Q3 average of 3818). 




> They won’t be out of cash next month. I still firmly believe they’re going to eek out a profit for Q3. Combination of only selling higher margin 3’s (AWD and Performance only), as well as booking build fees as an order processing fee so they can immediately recognize revenue. No growth on service side either so pain for customers but losses will be flat. With no spend on anything else such as building more lines, their cash position should be flat/improve slightly. They can do this until the AWD and Performance order backlog thins out, which seems to already be the case. 
> 
> Tesla is going all in for Q3 so they can get their stock price up and raise cash again.






> Continuing on last weeks predictions, Q2 numbers is going to beat Wall Street estimates with losses narrowing. Q3 is going to be predicted to be profitable. Tesla has already shuffled deliveries to Q3 (some theorizing over credits) so Q3 is going to look like a strong quarter. Should see some spikes in the stock price right after the Q2 earnings call. It’s all planned, Tesla needs to get the stock price past $360 before the next set of bonds mature. 
> 
> If we look back at Q1, Tesla’s last week burst rate surpassed 2000/week. Q2 they built the tent (20% production out of there), ripped out a bunch of robots, and replaced with workers to get to 5000/week burst rate. This worked out to a 2500/week average for Q2. There’s question marks about that 5000 (rumors 1000 of those were already on the line for minor rework) but I’ll ignore that for now since it’s just a random leak. They also cut costs by getting rid of 9% of the workforce, mostly in the solarcity side. If Tesla wants to nail Q3 with a profit, they simply stop spending on additional capacity, push the 3 lines as hard as possible, end up with a 3500-4000/week Q3 average, deliver as much as they can including the 11k shifted to q3, and profit. They’re not going to sustain 5000/week IMO as 24x7x365 is unrealistic, but guaranteed they’ll focus on that in the earnings call to boost the stock price. 
> 
> Long story short, should be some decent money making for traders in the next quarter. I’m still not sold long term with demand and actual gross margins completely unknown since they’re burying a large chunk of COGS in SG&A.






> Probably has nothing to do with profitability, and more to do with their cash situation. The stock's been a fucking roller coaster all month, down today, recover tomorrow. If calling someone a pedo doesn't move the stock long term, nothing will.
> 
> Betting starts now prior to the August 1st earnings call next week! I still believe it's another one of those magic calls where the numbers are massaged to hell and point to profitability for Q3 for a nice uptick in stock price.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

When you're as dumb as Gestalt, smart people seem stupid. He's definitely less than the sum of his parts.

----------


## Gestalt

> When you're as dumb as Gestalt, smart people seem stupid. He's definitely less than the sum of his parts.



Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE

- - - Updated - - -




> In the last 12 months, I’m up 63% on TSLA while the stock is actually down 3%. Maybe I should start selling broken clocks. 
> 
> A look back at all my predictions since the first week of July, pretty much spot on. Only thing I got wrong is Q2 loss, I expected it to narrow but instead they had the worst loss in the history of the company. Even nailed their production rate (current Q3 average of 3818).



Listen, mr wall street only reason Tesla stock fell ahead of earnings was the barrage of negative press and lies and slander that need Tesla to fail

----------


## Darkane

@rage2
 new user title Mr. Wallstreet

- - - Updated - - -




> Once again another useless troll post by JRSCOOLDUDE
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Listen, mr wall street only reason Tesla stock fell ahead of earnings was the barrage of negative press and lies and slander that need Tesla to fail



Your comma should be after street, and include a the.

----------


## speedog

> Your comma should be after street, and include a ‘the’.



You do know that you're beating a dead horse with this.

----------


## Darkane

> You do know that you're beating a dead horse with this.



I’m late to the game as usual, but read all his posts. He’s actually quite entertaining and I applaud his passion for all things irrational.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> So as I recall August should be the month that cashflow starts to become a major issue for Tesla. I havn't really seen any news on this, but I doubt it is something that just went away.
> 
> They were able to ramp up production with the whole outdoor tent assembly line fiasco; however, the additional staff and resources they brought on to do that would have an impact on cash on hand as well. They were basically throwing money at this problem to achieve production, so I don't know how much that helped their cash situation.
> 
> There was some news that they were asking for cash back from suppliers, so this issue is definitely playing out behind the scenes at the moment:
> http://fortune.com/2018/07/23/tesla-...h-back-profit/



They won't run out of cash for several reasons.

1. They're lowering their capex spending. GA3 and GA4 lines are producing at the rate they want, with small capex spending to improve efficiency. They're not building any more lines.
2. They cut 9% of their workforce (mostly on the solar side because it's been performing like shit) and rehiring at a rapid pace to run production. Severance was barely a rounding error because they cheaped out on packages for the layoffs. They're hiring at a pace that should have them even in terms of resource spending.
3. They did increase their AP by another $400m so that gave them room.
4. They have $3.3b in unsold inventory. I haven't figured out what the deal is there yet. Too much noise from both bears and bulls.

They need to keep not just the ship afloat, but also the stock price, so Q3 has to be profitable and cash flow positive. They have a bunch of bonds maturing ($1b in March) that needs the stock price to be at a certain price to convert, else they need cash to pay it.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Oh Mr. Wall Street, you don't even understand finance.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> As far as cutting staff goes, it was needed for sure... but I saw another story today from a few source that says they are going on a "hiring spree"... which would basically negate any short term cashflow savings there. 
> https://electrek.co/2018/08/04/tesla...spree-layoffs/
> 
> 
> How do they have unsold inventory anyway? I thought all of their cars were built on demand?



That’s what I said in #2. Pretty much a wash. They fired a bunch of sales people and hired a bunch of production people. 

Not sure about inventory yet. Could be anything. Normal inventory levels when comparing to dealers, logistics issues, cars needing rework. Who knows. As for built on demand they changed that for the 3. They’re building 3s in batches with set options and colors. This makes it easier for them to make less changes on the line as they’re still ironing out issues. If you order a car, they match the colors and options combo, and assign a VIN. This is why some people get VINs immediately while others have months wait. Just depends if your combo has been produced.

----------


## Buster

Inventory may not mean completed vehicles. I dont know enough about how auto company accounting. 

Rage is single handedly trying to save this thread.

----------


## RedDawn

> They won't run out of cash for several reasons.
> 
> 1. They're lowering their capex spending. GA3 and GA4 lines are producing at the rate they want, with small capex spending to improve efficiency. They're not building any more lines.
> 2. They cut 9% of their workforce (mostly on the solar side because it's been performing like shit) and rehiring at a rapid pace to run production. Severance was barely a rounding error because they cheaped out on packages for the layoffs. They're hiring at a pace that should have them even in terms of resource spending.
> 3. They did increase their AP by another $400m so that gave them room.
> 4. They have $3.3b in unsold inventory. I haven't figured out what the deal is there yet. Too much noise from both bears and bulls.
> 
> They need to keep not just the ship afloat, but also the stock price, so Q3 has to be profitable and cash flow positive. They have a bunch of bonds maturing ($1b in March) that needs the stock price to be at a certain price to convert, else they need cash to pay it.



That false interpretation of the bonds need to be put to bed. Conversion ratio can be adjusted all the way down to $250.

----------


## rage2

> That false interpretation of the bonds need to be put to bed. Conversion ratio can be adjusted all the way down to $250.



Which would be a sign that Tesla can’t pay back debts. It’ll dilute the stock even more and stock prices will get plummeted. They’ll never be able to raise money again.

Adjusting the conversion ratio would be a death sentence.

----------


## Gestalt

Musk posted this on his twitter. HItler was a shroter  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  

https://youtu.be/wxEClGh6Mus

----------


## rage2

What's even funnier is that shorts and longs have been break even in the last 12 months. 

Stock price August 7 2018: $355.95
Stock price August 7 2017: $355.17

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Musk posted this on his twitter. HItler was a shroter



Hitler? A Shroter? Did you mean a Shroeder? No, I don't think he was ever a tailor. Anyone able to translate this to English? Well, I guess it was close enough to Engrish since Rage got it.

----------


## rage2

> Beat expectations, nothing but good news. 10% gains by tomorrow, 20% by next week.



Posted on August 1st. Stock prices.

August 1: $300.84
August 2: $349.54 (+16.1%)
August 7: $363.71 (+20.1%)



Look 
@Gestalt
, I am Mr. Wall Street!  :ROFL!:

----------


## supe

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776

I don't even know what to think....

----------


## rage2

> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776
> 
> I don't even know what to think....



For me, thanks for the free ride Elon? haha

Yea, definitely selling off my position off tomorrow. Pretty close to that ceiling already. I mean who knows if it's true, if it isn't it's another drop back down again.

----------


## suntan

I see he's snorting the extra pure cocaine this morning.

----------


## Gestalt

> Posted on August 1st. Stock prices.
> 
> August 1: $300.84
> August 2: $349.54 (+16.1%)
> August 7: $363.71 (+20.1%)
> 
> Attachment 82875
> 
> Look 
> ...



Seemed obvious no? You had a $450 stock trading at $290 doing busines even better then usual. But its good for rotator cuff mohility keep it up with the slef patting.

----------


## rage2

> Seemed obvious no? You had a $450 stock trading at $290 doing busines even better then usual. But its good for rotator cuff mohility keep it up with the slef patting.



How is Tesla an obvious $450 stock aside than pulling that # out of your ass?

----------


## Gestalt

> How is Tesla an obvious $450 stock aside than pulling that # out of your ass?



how isn't it. It woudl already be there if it wasnt for the every 3 or 4 month slander and lie campaing against him by the shorters and oil people.

----------


## Buster

Rage: I hope Elon ran this past you.

----------


## rage2

> how isn't it. It woudl already be there if it wasnt for the every 3 or 4 month slander and lie campaing against him by the shorters and oil people.



Well even Elon says it's only worth $420 including acquisition premium literally an hour ago, which means Elon only thinks Tesla's stock is worth $350. Are you challenging the great Elon?

by the way, TSLA suspended because of elon's tweet.  :ROFL!:

----------


## suntan

Musk is obviously joking. 420. Get it? Haha. What a doof.

----------


## max_boost

> How come none of the chicks in mean girls were hot? Never made any sense to me. May as well watch "bring it on".



Both were great movies but Mean Girls is a classic bro. Pre drugs LL was the best

----------


## Gestalt

420 is pot. Not what the financing is going to end up

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Well even Elon says it's only worth $420 including acquisition premium literally an hour ago, which means Elon only thinks Tesla's stock is worth $350. Are you challenging the great Elon?
> 
> by the way, TSLA suspended because of elon's tweet.



You can't expect someone to understand valuation if they can't even spell it. And TSLA is suspended because big oil owns Wall Street, not because Musk is a loudmouth with a God complex.

----------


## Gestalt

And when you really understand it you'll understand its worth what someone feels its worth.

I posted this before. All you guys that are wrapped up in how good you are need it.

https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary.../dp/1684220742

----------


## HiTempguy1

He's just fucking with everybody, its quite humorous:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/di...day-2018-08-07

And he got the short sellers as well:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/07/elon...rs-more-t.html

Not a lot of money, but still. From the sidelines, this is all quite funny

----------


## suntan

> And TSLA is suspended because big oil owns Wall Street



In conjunction with the Egg Council.

----------


## ercchry

> And when you really understand it you'll understand its worth what someone feels its worth.
> 
> I posted this before. All you guys that are wrapped up in how good you are need it.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary.../dp/1684220742



Sounds like you’d ace the CFA exams!  :ROFL!: 

It’s so simple!

----------


## Gestalt

> Sounds like you’d ace the CFA exams! 
> 
> It’s so simple!



Thats fake pseudoscience like being good at astrology or tarrot cards.

----------


## Gestalt

> Thats fake pseudoscience like being good at astrology or tarrot cards.



And of course the proof is for the last 20 years blindfolded monkeys beat your analysts regularity.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...ain-2015-06-25

Humans are so cinvicned of there sueprioroty and prowess its funy and scary.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Humans are so cinvicned of there sueprioroty and prowess its funy and scary.



Humans like Elon? Agreed.

----------


## Gestalt

> Humans like Elon? Agreed.



more thinking you and sp  :ROFL!: 

Your attempt to cast down on elon someone infinately more obvioustly accomplished is just proof

----------


## Xtrema

So Elon will get "believers" to fund his company thru next 4-5 years and go IPO again?

On one hand he said he got funding, on other he wishes all current investor to come along. So which is it?

----------


## taemo

> more thinking you and sp 
> 
> Your attempt to cast down on elon someone infinately more obvioustly accomplished is just proof



is Elon giving you a BJ everyday or resurrected one of your relatives for you to venerate him so much?  :crazy nut:

----------


## Gestalt

> is Elon giving you a BJ everyday or resurrected one of your relatives for you to venerate him so much?



Truly self made people are rare. When moving to California he practiced eating on $30 a month convinced himself hed be ok if he didn't suceed.

Then a serial sucess and multi bullionaor and changed the world.

Not as successful as armchair business tycoon sp from his condo, or prelude driver, but inspirational any way

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Then a serial sucess and multi bullionaor and changed the world.



I have multiple bouillon too, from beef to chicken to tomato and cilantro. Knorr to Maggi. 

My stock is rich.

----------


## msommers

> People are so stupid to be taken in by his theatrics to pump up the stock. It just goes to show that most of his investors are either speculators trying to get in on the volatility, or Tesla cultists that don't know any better. 
> 
> 
> 
> Elon doesn't strike me as somebody who qualifies as being successful, he is just a rich playboy nerd that throws money at things. Basically he is Dan Bilzerian, only with two key differences; he is a wimpy nerd version, and seems desperate to try and prove himself to the public. 
> 
> I almost feel bad for him, his life must be super stressful even though he has so much money, it is just sad.



I really don't give two shits about Tesla or Elon, but this almost sounds like Apple and Steve Jobs.

----------


## rage2

Just sold at $377 even. 28% in a week, can't fucking complain about that!

----------


## rage2

> I really don't give two shits about Tesla or Elon, but this almost sounds like Apple and Steve Jobs.



The comparison has been made many times, and it's a fair comparison. Both are visionaries, total assholes to those around them, and create something that people never thought they needed but is a must have. 

The only difference between the two is that Apple focused on what they know best, left manufacturing to the experts in China so that it can be done very cheaply, and was profitable very quickly. They also tested the waters to make sure they have a profitable design to sale model with the iPod Touch before going full speed with the iPhone. Meanwhile, Elon believes he's smarter than everyone and thinks he can accomplish everything inhouse.

Now, I compared Apple to Elon here simply because we all know it's Elon that's driving the direction every step of the way, but I have no idea if it was Jobs or someone else that made the decision on how iDevices were being manufactured to minimize risk and maximize profit, so I can't give Jobs credit.

----------


## msommers

Jobs would have taken credit regardless, it's what he did  :ROFL!:

----------


## suntan

> Jobs would have taken credit regardless, it's what he did



Jobs was involved in everything. He was the ultimate micromanager. He used to go on tirades if he thought you fucked up. OTOH, Jobs didn't give a fuck about what others thought about him. Dude wore the same damn outfit every day. Musk wants to be an alpha male. Look at his fucked up relationships with women.

----------


## msommers

Definitely a micromanager...Additionally in Jobs' biography, I remember there were a couple instances where other people had ideas and he ran with them claiming they were his own.

----------


## Buster

> The comparison has been made many times, and it's a fair comparison. Both are visionaries, total assholes to those around them, and create something that people never thought they needed but is a must have. 
> 
> The only difference between the two is that Apple focused on what they know best, left manufacturing to the experts in China so that it can be done very cheaply, and was profitable very quickly. They also tested the waters to make sure they have a profitable design to sale model with the iPod Touch before going full speed with the iPhone. Meanwhile, Elon believes he's smarter than everyone and thinks he can accomplish everything inhouse.
> 
> Now, I compared Apple to Elon here simply because we all know it's Elon that's driving the direction every step of the way, but I have no idea if it was Jobs or someone else that made the decision on how iDevices were being manufactured to minimize risk and maximize profit, so I can't give Jobs credit.



Manufacturing the devices in China was a no-brainer. I don't think that was a particularly visionary thing. Tesla doesn't have the same obvious manufacturing choice.

Tesla is far less revolutionary than the credit it gets. People have been manufacturing cars on assembly lines for a century. Plunking a battery and electric motors in there instead of an ICE isn't revolutionary - lots of transportation is done with electric motors for decades. The product isn't changing our lives - we've been transporting people in 15 foot, two ton contraptions for a centuryl. The direct to consumer manufacturing isn't new, Dell pioneered that 30 years ago.

The closest analogue company to Tesla isn't Apple. It's Redbull. Both are primarily market companies. Redbull is a company that re-packages un-revolutionary components (caffeine, soda water, sugar), into a cool package and markets the fuck out of it. Tesla is the same - except that Redbull actually IS awesome and the company actually IS cool. Tesla's market is uncool people who want to be cool, and are told an uncool product will get them there.

----------


## Homerrca

Watching this entire thread and what is on blogs, tv, etc. It seems to me that while Elon has the right idea of building an electric car, the way he went ahead with it was rather stupid IMO.

In the beginning it seemed to have the correct idea, build a car that the wealthy will buy, get cash coming in while proving your concept and then look at additional revenue streams (like a car for the common folks) but he started to go off saying I will build a car for the common folks, then next week I will build you a flame thrower, then a semi truck, etc while not really producing anything. It seems he should have looked at what the ICE manufactures are doing and apply it to his assembly plant.

IMO he should have done what Henry Ford did , he found a model that worked and setup his factories to produce it and make what brings in money so you have the funds to look at additional revenue streams without coming up with gimmicks or promises in the hope it will keep his company a float. Come on what is next, the limited edition electric chair.. 

Like I have told my friends when we discussed this topic, he had the right idea and if done properly, could be a vehicle that can change the world like Henry ford did with the Model T did at the turn of the century but what he has done so far doesn’t look like it will work out and I am all for progress and electricity is one of the options for the future..

At the end of the day unless things turn around, I think that he will end up like DMC and possibly fade into the pages of history.

----------


## Gestalt

Tesla will soon be at $450, maybe eveb before next year like I predicted and all the haters dressed up as armchair quartebacks come out of the wood pretending to me rational.

 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> Manufacturing the devices in China was a no-brainer. I don't think that was a particularly visionary thing. Tesla doesn't have the same obvious manufacturing choice.



Sure they do.




> Really, that's what Tesla should've done from the start, leverage and outsource design and production to someone that knows WTF they're doing and actually make money. Once the S/X were successful, then take all the lessons learnt with your partner, design the 3 with them, and roll out production of the 3 that way in your own lines at Fremont. Model Y? Take all those lessons, and design/production all in house. Not enough capital to build another production line? Leverage and outsource again. That's how you scale up without running out of money, and running into non stop problems.
> 
> This is how even the big manufactures do things. When there's a lack of production capacity, guys like Magna Steyr fill the gap and build cars for manufacturers. You have to be absolutely insane to invest billions in new production lines during ramp up of new models. Take a look at the cars that they've built.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr

----------


## rage2

> Tesla will soon be at $450, maybe eveb before next year like I predicted and all the haters dressed up as armchair quartebacks come out of the wood pretending to me rational.



Great analysis bro. Love all that deep analytical reasoning behind that price target.

----------


## Buster

> Sure they do.



Car companies decide all the time whether to build their own plant, and how much to outsource or not outsource. I don't think the choice was obvious (although your plan is certainly better). The problem with using Magna or something is that it doesn't fit their business model (ie marketing model). They didn't want to be viewed as an IP company. Other car companies can avoid this problem because they are not precariously new.

----------


## you&me

Wouldn't a large factor in the decision to manufacture the cars in the US have been the tax breaks and other subsidies? Good luck getting the gov't on board to subsidize the huge MSRPs when you've outsourced your production to China.

----------


## rage2

> Wouldn't a large factor in the decision to manufacture the cars in the US have been the tax breaks and other subsidies? Good luck getting the gov't on board to subsidize the huge MSRPs when you've outsourced your production to China.



Still shit tons cheaper in China, factoring in any local tax breaks and subsidies. The majority of the subsidies with Tesla are EV credits, which AFAIK doesn't change regardless of country of manufacture.

----------


## supe

> Just sold at $377 even. 28% in a week, can't fucking complain about that!



I think you got a bit lucky with the latest news, but hey you gotta play to be lucky, good for you. My earliest dollars were in at $35  :thumbs up:

----------


## rage2

> I think you got a bit lucky with the latest news, but hey you gotta play to be lucky, good for you. My earliest dollars were in at $35



Nice. Definitely a little bit of luck, I was actually tempted to sell at 355 but then got lucky with the Saudi investment news and rode it a little further.

----------


## Manhattan

This is all just play money right? Would have to be nuts to put any significant amount of investment dollars in such a volatile company with no earnings to date. Aren't we all old enough to remember the dot coms crash.

----------


## rage2

> This is all just play money right? Would have to be nuts to put any significant amount of investment dollars in such a volatile company with no earnings to date. Aren't we all old enough to remember the dot coms crash.



Yup. 1 or 2 wrong moves and it'll get wiped out.

----------


## KPHMPH

Elon pretty much artificially inflated his own stock by saying that which could POSSIBLY open him up to an investigation and haulting anymore trade on his stock.... time will tell.

----------


## ercchry

> Yup. 1 or 2 wrong moves and it'll get wiped out.



Since you keep playing around set dates (ie. quarterly earnings) this could be a lot more fun as option contacts  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Elon pretty much artificially inflated his own stock by saying that which could POSSIBLY open him up to an investigation and haulting anymore trade on his stock.... time will tell.



Not Possibly. "Funding Secured" is a problem for SEC.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-secured-tweet

So far nobody is admitting to they are the entity that's funding this. Both the Saudis and Norwegians and the California Teachers fund are also blindsided by this.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Tesla will soon be at $450, maybe eveb before next year like I predicted and all the haters dressed up as armchair quartebacks come out of the wood pretending to me rational.



Just curious, with news of Elon's privatization target of $420 dominating headlines, how is big oil managing to push the current price down to $350? You'd be stupid not to throw all your money at it right now since we'll get laughed at when it hits $450.

----------


## Gestalt

> So let's do some fun Marth:
> 
> As I recall, Musk owns something like 20%... and a 420$ price tag on a share would mean the company has a market cap of around 70 Bullshit... I mean 70 Billion dollars. For comparison sake, GM has a mark cap of around 54 Billion, VAG has a cap of about 76 Billion, and Ford has a cap at around 39 Billion.
> 
> So to buy out the remaining shares, he'd need to find like 56 billion. Even the Saudis would be uncomfortable with throwing away 56 billion on this rinky dink venture... for 56 billion, you'd be better off running a campaign to sink Tesla and buying it up after bankruptcy. 
> 
> Speaking of which...
> 
> This private buy out would be the biggest in history... the next biggest was TXU. In case you were wondering how that went:
> ...



There's freedom of speech for you. A guy can't vent his feelings on his own twitter account. But you support alex hate speech. Funny world.

but its only tesla haters and shorts that are pushing for an investigation. he doesnt need money since he turned down $sbillion in financing.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/08/0...elon-musk.html

- - - Updated - - -




> Just curious, with news of Elon's privatization target of $420 dominating headlines, how is big oil managing to push the current price down to $350? You'd be stupid not to throw all your money at it right now since we'll get laughed at when it hits $450.



Your not paying attentiin. Or pretending to be oblvious

----------


## rage2

I'm just telling you to put your money where your mouth is.

----------


## Gestalt

> I'm just telling you to put your money where your mouth is.



I've been buying tesla for years. Im not a trader, i just hold. I was probably why the boss bought his tesla a few years ago. i was dollar cost averaging just buying evry few months as funds allowed no matter the price, then option, sell, exercise equivalent profits+intial cost tried that but i was not as good at that.

----------


## mazdavirgin

> There's freedom of speech for you. A guy can't vent his feelings on his own twitter account. But you support alex hate speech. Funny world.



It's not a question of freedom of speech. It's a question as to if he has committed fraud. You can't randomly tweet and disclose false financial related information as a CEO or employee of a publicly traded company. Otherwise we would have everyone and their uncle running pump and dump schemes in the markets. I get that you're a musk cheer leader but take your blinders and rose tinted heart shaped sun glasses off for a second. Use your brain, what he did if it proves to be false is no different than the shit that Bre-X did back in it's heyday.

----------


## Gestalt

so you can start wars on twitter, express your hate, racism, incite violence, but if short sellers are involved, sorry, keep your mouth shut? haha

key word. CONSIDERING. And thats a no brianer.

use your brain. nothing will come of this because its stupid, and fueld only by haters. and nothing wrong with pondering publically, yet, on your personal feeds.

----------


## mazdavirgin

> so you can start wars on twitter, express your hate, racism, incite violence, but if short sellers are involved, sorry, keep your mouth shut? haha
> 
> use your brain. nothing will come of this because its stupid, and fueld only by haters. and nothing wrong with pondering publically, yet, on your personal feeds.



Except it's against the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/240.14e-8

It's mind boggling you manage to function in society with your level of idiocy.

----------


## Gestalt

> Except it's against the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/240.14e-8
> 
> It's mind boggling you manage to function in society with your level of idiocy.



your comprehension is kinda lacking eh mr. google lawyer? read it slower. plus there is the whole word CONSIDER.

----------


## ercchry

> your comprehension is kinda lacking eh mr. google lawyer? read it slower. plus there is the whole word CONSIDER.



And the whole phrase “funding secured”

----------


## dirtsniffer

he didn't say maybe there is funding.

he said funding fucking secured.

Thats the problem. Guess the SEC is just a bunch of hater shrtsllrz

----------


## Gestalt

> he didn't say maybe there is funding.
> 
> he said funding fucking secured.
> 
> Thats the problem. Guess the SEC is just a bunch of hater shrtsllrz



they totally are part of the reason musk is going private. watch theur interviews. haters.

nothing will come of this, if the sec pusruses this, nothing will happen. they let unbeleivable corruption happen, but tesla consdiering something that he has been for years is eveil, and cost no one but shorts antyhing, no insider trading, nop pump an ddump as Cramer pointed out. and he probably has funding. he turned down billions from the saudis becasue he didnt need it as Cramer pointed out.

----------


## supe

Here is a fun video with our favorite finance guy, Kevin O'Leary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG9oPraTrmo

tldr, he loves his X and the product, would not buy the stock, but thinks the latest move is a great chess move. 

I actually agree with him that Tesla should not strive for profitability. 

I think one point he makes needs more weight is that Musk rubs shoulders with lots of wealthy and powerful people. In my opinion raising 50B is easy for him. 

Although I don't actually know if I like this going private deal. Pros and cons.

----------


## Gestalt

> Here is a fun video with our favorite finance guy, Kevin O'Leary:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG9oPraTrmo
> 
> tldr, he loves his X and the product, would not buy the stock, but thinks the latest move is a great chess move. 
> 
> I actually agree with him that Tesla should not strive for profitability. 
> 
> I think one point he makes needs more weight is that Musk rubs shoulders with lots of wealthy and powerful people. In my opinion raising 50B is easy for him. 
> ...



$50 billion in phoney paper money is easy. 5 share holders hold 50% of Tesla, so it could be much less. Imagine Norway using their oil money tirllion fund to buy some. seems easy.

Trudeau is an asshat, but he respects the game. terrific interview

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2



----------


## Gestalt

> I support freedom of speech... not "Alex hate speech"
> 
> Deceiving share holders with fake information to manipulate a stock is a criminal act, not freedom of speech. The SEC is going to bring the hammer down and make a Musk pancake out of Elon's face
> 
> 
> 
> So. just wondering.. you are aware that Norway invested too hard in Elon's shitty promises and now the people there are starting to hate Tesla? 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-against-tesla
> 
> They are not going to spend a penny on that junk stock. Tesla as a private company is useless anyway, how can you raise funds with hype when it is private? That is the entire business model.



Hey 40 year old student condo armchair CEO. Did yku know no one takes ehat you say into advisement?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> Attempting to discredit people instead of debating their points usually means that you've lost the debate
> 
> It is ok, don't be hard on yourself. Standing up for Musk has got to be frustrating as hell with all the stupid things he does on a regular basis.
> 
> He is getting sued now over this fraudulent "private buyout" claim btw:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45155268
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the Model S and Model X sales seem to be loosing steam now that they are no longer that latest and greatest Tesla products:
> ...



 No wonder you are back to school at 40 unemplyed and living in a condo. Cant imagine who would put up with your superior but know nothing attitude in the work world.

Is even divorce next for you?

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## Maxt

errr.....
https://mansionengineer.com/2018/08/...mpression=true

----------


## ExtraSlow

Dammit, I was more excited about the solar roof than the cars!

----------


## colsankey

> 



Not sure if real ,but thats amazing..

----------


## mazdavirgin

> No wonder you are back to school at 40 unemplyed and living in a condo. Cant imagine who would put up with your superior but know nothing attitude in the work world.
> 
> Is even divorce next for you?



Did you even graduate from high school? Your spelling/grammar is so atrocious I just can't help but wonder... Maybe you got your GED? You're a real class act though can't defend your own ideas but instead you decide to attack people based on their personal lives. I seriously also can't believe that you would mock someone for returning to school when it's evident you could use some "edumacation" yourself. It's truly the height of hubris to be mocking someone for trying to attain more knowledge and better themselves. It's like real life beyond idiocracy here in this thread.

----------


## Gestalt

> Did you even graduate from high school? Your spelling/grammar is so atrocious I just can't help but wonder... Maybe you got your GED? You're a real class act though can't defend your own ideas but instead you decide to attack people based on their personal lives. I seriously also can't believe that you would mock someone for returning to school when it's evident you could use some "edumacation" yourself. It's truly the height of hubris to be mocking someone for trying to attain more knowledge and better themselves. It's like real life beyond idiocracy here in this thread.



Hubris is being in his position calling Musk stupid and a failure lol. 
Hubris is pretending hes superior to other humans, but we should thank him for toning it down.

Yiu should pay more atention.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Edit. Meh!

----------


## suntan

Like I've said before, it's the kid of someone who registered on the site and left his account logged in.

----------


## msommers

His level of trolling is incredible. He's baited so many

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> His level of trolling is incredible. He's baited so many



No it's not. It's amateur level trolling. Expert trolls don't make it obvious.

----------


## tirebob

> No it's not. It's amateur level trolling. Expert trolls don't make it obvious.



I am amazing anybody still engages it... Everyone should ignore every single word that comes out of its facepussy any let it die a lonely death.

----------


## Buster

> I am amazing anybody still engages it... Everyone should ignore every single word that comes out of its facepussy any let it die a lonely death.



The forum should have a feature where any post quoting someone also hits your ignore.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> The forum should have a feature where any post quoting someone also hits your ignore.



That would be a valuable feature.

----------


## Xtrema

> Here is a fun video with our favorite finance guy, Kevin O'Leary:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG9oPraTrmo
> 
> tldr, he loves his X and the product, would not buy the stock, but thinks the latest move is a great chess move. 
> 
> I actually agree with him that Tesla should not strive for profitability. 
> 
> I think one point he makes needs more weight is that Musk rubs shoulders with lots of wealthy and powerful people. In my opinion raising 50B is easy for him. 
> ...



It's a great move, if only Elon would just STFU about it until it's fully cooked. Doesn't matter, he got a hate on for shorters anyway and that tweet is probably aimed at them.




> His level of trolling is incredible. He's baited so many



At this point, I'm only reading Gesalt thru SP's quotes. It isn't fun (or funny) any more. I hope it's trolling or it could be serious mental issues.




> 



That's pretty good if real.

Just finished China Hustle on Netflix. SEC is already pretty neutered by Trump right now but Elon is making it high enough profile that it keeps getting to top of the pile.

The only funny part about that documentary is that shorters are portraited as heroes to go against fraudulent companies since SEC/US gov won't/can't go after them.

----------


## rx7boi

> At this point, I'm only reading Gesalt thru SP's quotes. It isn't fun (or funny) any more. I hope it's trolling or it could be serious mental issues.



Don't ever forget that internet anonymity and the propensity to double down on idiocy helps some to thrive here.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> So are the Saudi's actually going to take Tesla private?
> 
> I just can't see them being the sole investor, or paying out the stock at 420 a share. Why would they? Or is this just to get him out of hot water with the SEC, and at the last second the deal will fail? 
> 
> I always thought it would be Fiat that bought them out in the end, but the price is too crazy for regular companies to get involved.



He won't sell to the saudi fund, but its an option im sure he 'considered". SA is all about energy and they know oil is done hence selling theres off and investing in other things.

I can't remember if its 5 or 6 investors that hold 50% of Tesla stock and Musk holds 20% and will no doubt add more.

So the investment isn't as much as being thrown around 

Musk is a genius. Remeber when gm and chrsyler went bankrupt tesla survived. Hes here to what.Iy

----------


## Xtrema

> So are the Saudi's actually going to take Tesla private?
> 
> I just can't see them being the sole investor, or paying out the stock at 420 a share. Why would they? Or is this just to get him out of hot water with the SEC, and at the last second the deal will fail? 
> 
> I always thought it would be Fiat that bought them out in the end, but the price is too crazy for regular companies to get involved.



The fact that Elon want to remain in control of the private company with only 20% stake makes it a tough sell.

Who the hell want to just hand Elon $50B (+ potentially more debt) and have 0 control on how he spend it?

FIAT is only worth $25B. How the hell can they come up with $50B.

I think the board say that going private is to cover Elon's ass on that tweet. They may have pondered it but they are nowhere close to "funding secured".

----------


## Gestalt

> The fact that Elon want to remain in control of the private company with only 20% stake makes it a tough sell.
> 
> Who the hell want to just hand Elon $50B (+ potentially more debt) and have 0 control on how he spend it?
> 
> FIAT is only worth $25B. How the hell can they come up with $50B.
> 
> I think the board say that going private is to cover Elon's ass on that tweet. They may have pondered it but they are nowhere close to "funding secured".



Anyone would. Tesla is Musk. There is no Tesla without Musks vision.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat



----------


## rage2

> I think the board say that going private is to cover Elon's ass on that tweet. They may have pondered it but they are nowhere close to "funding secured".



Tesla released basically a lawyer written statement on behalf of Elon to get him out of trouble.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/upd...te?redirect=no

Relevant section:




> Recently, after the Saudi fund bought almost 5% of Tesla stock through the public markets, they reached out to ask for another meeting. That meeting took place on July 31st. During the meeting, the Managing Director of the fund expressed regret that I had not moved forward previously on a going private transaction with them, and *he strongly expressed his support for funding a going private transaction for Tesla at this time. I understood from him that no other decision makers were needed and that they were eager to proceed.*
> 
> I left the July 31st meeting with no question that a deal with the Saudi sovereign fund could be closed, and that it was just a matter of getting the process moving. This is why I referred to “funding secured” in the August 7th announcement.
> 
> Following the August 7th announcement, I have continued to communicate with the Managing Director of the Saudi fund. He has expressed support for proceeding *subject to financial and other due diligence and their internal review process for obtaining approvals.* He has also asked for additional details on how the company would be taken private, including any required percentages and any regulatory requirements.



Basically, the excuse is that the MD told him they were eager to proceed, he took that as yup they're good to go because he's the boss and shot caller, which is why he posted funding secured. WTF.

Next meeting he realized that the MD needs due diligence, review, and votes to get approval for spending $40+ billion. Who would've thought?

I guess if that statement is to be believed, Elon is stupid? Well he's either a liar or he's stupid.

----------


## Xtrema

> I guess if that statement is to be believed, Elon is stupid? Well he's either a liar or he's stupid.






> Therefore, reports that more than $70B would be needed to take Tesla private dramatically overstate the actual capital raise needed. The $420 buyout price would only be used for Tesla shareholders who do not remain with our company if it is private. My best estimate right now is that *approximately two-thirds of shares owned by all current investors would roll over into a private Tesla.*



Interesting assumption.

So out of 80% that isn't owned by Musk, he expects 2/3 stays or 50% to stay. So he expects to only need funding for that 30%, or around $25B.

But of those 30%, he also doesn't want to lose power so it will need to come from as many parties as possible?

EDIT:
https://loupventures.com/musk-fills-...ing-questions/

I guess my numbers are pretty much what everyone else is thinking about as well.

----------


## suntan

LOL people don't actually think that he's serious about this?

----------


## Buster

Friend just refused delivery of his Model 3 in the US.

Apparently every panel gap was gapped wrong, or crooked.

I remember when the old joke about the Big 3 was you didn't want a Friday car. With Tesla you want to avoid the Tent Car. What a shit company.

----------


## rage2

> Interesting assumption.
> 
> So out of 80% that isn't owned by Musk, he expects 2/3 stays or 50% to stay. So he expects to only need funding for that 30%, or around $25B.
> 
> But of those 30%, he also doesn't want to lose power so it will need to come from as many parties as possible?
> 
> EDIT:
> https://loupventures.com/musk-fills-...ing-questions/
> 
> I guess my numbers are pretty much what everyone else is thinking about as well.



None of those numbers will ever work simply because a private company by law can not have more than 500 shareholders. Anything more you will have to be public. This is to protect shareholders from fraud as the company will not be subject to public disclosures. He talks about current investors staying on board but that’s not exactly truth either. They would have to roll into a fund to act as a single shareholder, and to avoid using that as a loophole, the fund can’t be just Tesla and subject to single company limits. How many private shareholders would actually stay on board if you’re rolling into a fund that’s only partially Tesla?

The ownership numbers are publicly available. https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/tsla/ownership-summary

Just institutional owners alone are past the 500 number, but that’s not a problem, as many funds simply aren’t allowed to hold private shares without approval from those invested in the fund. 

The whole point is moot anyways, way too many variables above to know exactly how much needs to be bought out to actually go private. Clearly investors doesn’t believe any of this shit, since the stock is holding steady at ~350 and not 420.

----------


## msommers

That's brutal his car didn't come with Elon Goggles.

----------


## rage2

Just when I thought this story couldn’t possibly get any dumber...

https://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-respon...ing-1828310609

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## rage2

> So... I read that, but I don't know what it was about... is Musk in trouble, or is the girl just making shit up? Or both?



No clue if it was true. Just hilarious. Azaelia Banks is kinda crazy herself, but Grimes did tweet she was collaborating with her and waiting for her to come to LA. There was confirmation out there that she was at one of Elon’s properties over the weekend.

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1KY2AI

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> SEC has apparently served a subpoena to Musk, there is also a lot of regulatory scrutiny coming down on Tesla over this privatization announcement. If they have been cooking the books (and they probably have been fudging things), this could be a PR disaster for them. 
> 
> Stock has taken quite the beating over the past 5 days... seems people are not taking the 420 buyout as a real number anymore.



Just a normal cycle of lies and misinformation from shorters and haters. Business as usual.

----------


## Darell_n

> Just a normal cycle of lies and misinformation from corporations. Business as usual.



Fixed.

----------


## Xtrema

> SEC has apparently served a subpoena to Musk, there is also a lot of regulatory scrutiny coming down on Tesla over this privatization announcement. If they have been cooking the books (and they probably have been fudging things), this could be a PR disaster for them. 
> 
> Stock has taken quite the beating over the past 5 days... seems people are not taking the 420 buyout as a real number anymore.



Well

- The funding secured is verbal at best. If it's Saudi, it requires state department approval. Given they just bombed the Qualcomm deal due to national security concerns, they may not allow sales to Saudi either.

- The people close to PIF doesn't know anything about it. If it decided to pursue it, it would be in the dark for months before any announcement could be made. The Disney/Fox deal were in the dark for good 3-4 months before someone broke the news and force it in the open. And now it's in the open, do they really want to start/continue talks?

- The Tesla BOD doesn't know anything about this. They are firefighting after the Aug 7th tweet. Trying to come up with something to keep SEC away. Musk claimed they are working with Goldman Sachs and Silver Lake but only Goldman has been confirmed as of Aug 15th. 


End of the day, everyone who got caught up in his tweet storm is doing a WTF. Even if the talks are real, they probably don't want that be out in open.

And the BOD are lawyering up. not a good sign.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...on-plan-2018-8

----------


## speedog

C'mon, thisbis all just mure nonsence propaganda from shorters, haters and tbe press. Musk will comee out smeeling lik a rose.

----------


## klumsy_tumbler

> C'mon, thisbis all just mure nonsence propaganda from shorters, haters and tbe press. Musk will comee out smeeling lik a rose.



Someone taking Gestalt lessons?

----------


## rage2

Not enough exciting news, so why not add some Mexican drug cartels to the drama?

https://jalopnik.com/several-tesla-g...ing-1828393920

There’s some good news this week too. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/16/anal...ntroversy.html

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

They’re averaging 4500/week right now. Gotta look back to see what I projected, but I think I was pretty close on that one too.

----------


## Gestalt

> Someone taking Gestalt lessons?



As expected  :ROFL!: 

Tesla has some good news, haters and shorters flood the newws with #fakenews everything from tweeting on acid, drug trafficing in cars, missed targets, suggesting lying on reports, and phony sec concerns,

 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:  

The cycle will continue for the very long life of life of tesla until we start holding people acountable for what they say (besides jsut musK).

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> As expected 
> 
> Tesla has some good news, haters and shorters flood the newws with #fakenews everything from tweeting on acid, drug trafficing in cars, missed targets, suggesting lying on reports, and phony sec concerns,
> 
>    
> 
> The cycle will continue for the very long life of life of tesla until we start holding people acountable for what they say (besides jsut musK).

----------


## kenny

Tesla suing Ontario Government for ending the EV incentives.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ment-1.4788073

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Perhaps they should focus on a car that doesn't need a government bailout to sell it.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Perhaps they should focus on a car that doesn't need a government bailout to sell it.



Or delivering cars in a timely manner before rebate conditions change.

----------


## Xtrema

> Tesla suing Ontario Government for ending the EV incentives.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ment-1.4788073



BTW, Tesla basically say it's discriminatory base on manufacturer with dealership model has til Sep 10th for delivery and Tesla's incentive ended on July 11th.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

Jokes on him. Tesla could be bankrupt long before thats settled.

----------


## rage2

> BTW, Tesla basically say it's discriminatory base on manufacturer with dealership model has til Sep 10th for delivery and Tesla's incentive ended on July 11th.



The exclusion isn’t meant for Tesla. It’s meant for every other dealer. It’s so stop dealers from ordering a huge number of cars from the manufacturer after July 11th to deliver before September. Only cars ordered and enroute to the dealership or inventory cars qualifies for the rebate extension. Tesla got caught in the crossfire because they don’t stock cars and have limited Canadian builds. Every dealer is just as pissed about it as Tesla. Ordered a bolt in June but no allocation? No rebate. 

This is also partially Tesla’s fault, as they have thousands of confirmed Canadian orders that haven’t been built yet. All Model 3 Canadian deliveries have been prior to July. Tesla shuffled order priority to lower the number of US Q2 sales to extend the US rebates an additonal quarter. Since July 1st, Tesla is maximizing US sales to get as many rebates as possible for US residents and no cars have been sent to Canada since. July 11th came around, and all those Canadian orders sitting in limbo got fucked. 

If they didn’t do that, there would be no money left in the cap and trade revenues to pay for those incentives as collection stopped on July 11th. Tesla won’t win. Lawyers gets paid.

----------


## rage2

Elon Musk interview with NYT reveals a lot.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/b...iew-tesla.html

I don't know what's real or what's not anymore. Clearly there's drug use involved here, so maybe Azealia Banks isn't completely full of shit. Shit's falling apart as we speak.

----------


## Darkane

> Elon Musk interview with NYT reveals a lot.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/b...iew-tesla.html
> 
> I don't know what's real or what's not anymore. Clearly there's drug use involved here, so maybe Azealia Banks isn't completely full of shit. Shit's falling apart as we speak.



Literally beat me by two min.

----------


## rage2

Tesla calls out Elon Musk. Yea, the company is distancing itself from Elon. His run is done.

----------


## Darkane

> Tesla calls out Elon Musk. Yea, the company is distancing itself from Elon. His run is done.



What about the fact he says if anyone can do a better job right now it’s theirs. Kind of looking like he wants a successor and to step down. I mean 120 hours of work some weeks?

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

To think that the brunt of this could likely have been avoided had he not been so arrogant. Musk has essentially been the car version of these people:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> What about the fact he says if anyone can do a better job right now it’s theirs. Kind of looking like he wants a successor and to step down. I mean 120 hours of work some weeks?



Pretty sure the writing's already on the wall. He's just trying to make it sound like it's his choice that he's stepping down instead of the board giving him the boot. Pretty much the entire point of this interview.

----------


## dirtsniffer

TSLA down almost 8%

----------


## suntan

Here's hoping he's gone soon. Best thing to happen to TSLA. Then Musk can declare bankruptcy.

----------


## Xtrema

That's it? It's over? Or they don't want to pay overtime?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...e-early-2018-8

----------


## suntan

Duh, they made the 5000 cars early. They're done for the week!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Mr. Musk said he had no plans to relinquish his dual roles as chairman and chief executive.
> 
> But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.”



 
@Sugarphreak
 you should definitely tweet him for the job.

----------


## Buster

Someone should do a twitter feed that plugin that replaces Donald Trump's name in the tweet with Elon Musk's name, and vice versa. I bet no one would notice.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## C4S

Interesting .. but according to their web site, order delivery time is only 2-4 month?

----------


## suntan

Yeah but they don't specify what year.

----------


## J.M.

:ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

> Yeah but they don't specify what year.



well done.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Interesting .. but according to their web site, order delivery time is only 2-4 month?



https://seekingalpha.com/article/420...vation-holders

All the reserve holder wants $35K version. Demand is low for the expensive versions. 

Hence lines shut down early. This is another slap in the face for the $35K reservation holders.




> The RWD version of the Model 3 can now be ordered, without a reservation and will be delivered in one to five weeks depending on the customers location.



Article claims 7000 cars are stuck at factory without owners/buyers.

EDIT: NVM, damn article is written by shorters.




> So what do you guys think? Under 300 on Monday?



On that news, probably.

----------


## rage2

There's still demand for the LR + Premium versions, at least through Q3 and probably parts of Q4. Still believe they will eek out a small profit for Q3 even with all the drama.

Not sure why lines are shutting down early.

----------


## Jlude

> To think that the brunt of this could likely have been avoided had he not been so arrogant. Musk has essentially been the car version of these people:



WTF! Never caught that episode. Most times you know the producers are giving direction, but that's mental.

- - - Updated - - -

My model S is probably going to be delayed by 1 week, maybe 2.

----------


## holden

Elon being interviewed by my favourite ultimate frisbee player.

----------


## kJUMP

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/tesla/mo...T2E0M9&sprx=-2

if anyone's interested. lol

----------


## Buster

$20k in battery and autopilot upgrades? 

omg.

I have to find surveys on other things that Tesla owners like, so that I can make those things, and bend them over as well. It's like a large group of people self-identifying as suckers. Amazing.

$45k base, $83k OTD, for a car probably built in a tent with a bumper that is likely to fall off in the rain.

I have no hope for humanity.

----------


## rage2

> http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/tesla/mo...T2E0M9&sprx=-2
> 
> if anyone's interested. lol



Buyers remorse? Why would you pull the trigger on 2 when reservations became unnecessary when Canadian orders opened up?

----------


## rage2

> $20k in battery and autopilot upgrades? 
> 
> omg.
> 
> I have to find surveys on other things that Tesla owners like, so that I can make those things, and bend them as well. It's like a large group of people self-identifying as suckers. Amazing.
> 
> $45k base, $83k OTD, for a car probably built in a tent with a bumper that is likely to fall off in the rain.
> 
> I have no hope for humanity.



Most of those options are mandatory. The $45k base is for a car that doesn’t exist today. Sport wheels, autopilot, FSD are the only actual options. Guy didn’t even spring for the non black paint option haha.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

Ya i don't see the reasoning behind buying private when you can probably get a better rate through Tesla. I will admit i don't know a lick about their rates and incentives though

----------


## ianmcc

Interesting video on repairing and rebuilding Teslas.

----------


## rage2

Wife spent some time at the Tesla store yesterday. Sales people there are still selling autopilot as a complete full sell driving suite that’s currently disabled due to regulations. Just fucking  :facepalm:

----------


## dirtsniffer

You should go in and record them. Seems like a huge liability

----------


## rage2

> You should go in and record them. Seems like a huge liability



Pretty sure they have enough liabilities to worry about. Besides, if I posted that video, Gestalt would just call me out for hiring an actor to fake news.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Jlude

> Wife spent some time at the Tesla store yesterday. Sales people there are still selling autopilot as a complete full sell driving suite that’s currently disabled due to regulations. Just fucking



Interesting. I ordered from the same store and they didn't try and bullshit me, maybe because they knew I was calling from California? I specifically went over this with them. Do you know the names of who she talked to?

----------


## rage2

> Interesting. I ordered from the same store and they didn't try and bullshit me, maybe because they knew I was calling from California? I specifically went over this with them. Do you know the names of who she talked to?



Not sure. Some younger college kid there.

----------


## Darkane

Excellent. $25,000 EV in three years! lol. 

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/08/19/...deo-interview/

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Darkane

^^ good idea. 

I would probably be in line for a Tesla escape. Honestly - at 40-45k.

----------


## Maxt

> Not sure. Some younger college kid there.



 Was his name spelt correctly? Did his tag say _Cutsomer Cervice Daaren_

Honestly, with the price differential between a model 3 and a plug in hybrid, with the km my wife would use it for, there is just no way it would make any sense to buy anything tesla, also from a quality perspective. 
On the solar roof thing, my Japanese relatives are here right now and broke down the numbers on their solar roof installed in 1998 if anyone really is interested in long term solar numbers.

----------


## Darell_n

Id like to see a Tesla complete powertrain kit. Just the good stuff and none of the their crappy packaging. I will provide my own crappy package. Lol

----------


## Kavy

Changing up an Eminem song to fit your topic and tweeting it is pure gold. Regardless of how to company goes I still like the entertainment.

----------


## dirtsniffer

under $300..

----------


## Xtrema

> under $300..



Because PIF is picking another dance partner.... Lucid

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/19/reut...d-sources.html

There goes "funding secured".

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## ercchry

> Burn baby burn
> 
> Down comes the house of cards
> 
> *smugface



what am i missing? was a pretty flat day

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## holden

A walk through the factory with Elon

----------


## dirtsniffer

#pr

----------


## Buster

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...18-8?r=UK&IR=T




> -Of the 5,000 Model 3s that contributed to Tesla's end of June manufacturing target, about 4,300 of them required rework, according to internal documents viewed by Business Insider.
> -Within the auto industry, cars that make it through a manufacturing process without requiring rework are part of a factory or line's "first pass yield (FPY)."
> -That means the factory had a first pass yield for vehicles as low as 14% during the last week of June.
> -An industry expert told Business Insider that good auto plants have a first pass yield of about 80%.

----------


## racerocco

From the above article:
"Our goal is to produce a perfect car for every customer. In order to ensure the highest quality, we review every vehicle for even the smallest refinement before it leaves the factory. Dedicated inspection teams track every car throughout every shop in the assembly line and every vehicle is then subjected to an additional quality control process towards the end of line. And all of this happens before a vehicle leaves the factory and is delivered to a customer," the spokesperson said. 

and yet:
https://carbuzz.com/news/oops-this-t...ed-door-panels

----------


## rage2

> From the above article:
> "Our goal is to produce a perfect car for every customer. In order to ensure the highest quality, we review every vehicle for even the smallest refinement before it leaves the factory. Dedicated inspection teams track every car throughout every shop in the assembly line and every vehicle is then subjected to an additional quality control process towards the end of line. And all of this happens before a vehicle leaves the factory and is delivered to a customer," the spokesperson said. 
> 
> and yet:
> https://carbuzz.com/news/oops-this-t...ed-door-panels



 
@benyl
 has the same problem with his new Ford. Par for the course for American manufacturers.  :ROFL!: 

Of course karma is going to bite me in the ass when my new car comes in and I'm going to end up with a shitbox.

----------


## benyl

> @benyl
>  has the same problem with his new Ford. Par for the course for American manufacturers. 
> 
> Of course karma is going to bite me in the ass when my new car comes in and I'm going to end up with a shitbox.

----------


## Buster

thats hilarious.

what did they say? nobody noticed it at PDI?

----------


## ExtraSlow

What's wrong with those pictures? The power running boards always have that gap.

----------


## ercchry

> What's wrong with those pictures? The power running boards always have that gap.



I believe one is painted black  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> What's wrong with those pictures? The power running boards always have that gap.



Username checks out.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

> Username checks out.



bahahahahahah

----------


## ExtraSlow

Can confirm I have the correct username. 

Also, I blame the tiny screen on my phone and bright sunlight. But yeah, now you mention it, that's not great.

----------


## benyl

That was pre pdi. It had just come off the transporter. 

I’m not sure they would have noticed. 

The story gets better. It was sent out for paint. The body shop painted it black again!!!

So there’s a coat of primer, coat of black, another cot of black. And then finally, a coat of Ruby Red which is a tri coat. Haha. Fuck.

----------


## lilmira

Didn’t Henry Ford say that you can have any colour you want as long as it’s black?

----------


## googe

I still really don’t understand the Musk hate. It’s very confusing and weirdly personal. I don’t know why people want one less car company and one less space company. Aren’t we all better off with his companies succeeding?

----------


## Gestalt

Jealousy and ego with a sprinkle of insanity  :ROFL!: 

These guys ACTUALLY think they are smarter then Musk feom their quarterback chairs.

We are all in. Took tjis latest #fakenews cycle to almoat double our Tesla stock holdings. Moved some things around and bought abother 500 shares.

The new chip is legit and Tesla will go minimun $600 if it stays public, and as a long term fantasy will be aple in market cap.

See you haters when its over.  :Pooosie:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

I wish he'd stick to rockets, THAT company is awesome. Tesla as a company is still mostly a joke, I don't think pointing that out is a hate for Musk as a person. It'll be unfortunate if his arrogance with Tesla ends SpaceX and Solar.

----------


## Gestalt

> I wish he'd stick to rockets, THAT company is awesome. Tesla as a company is still mostly a joke, I don't think pointing that out is a hate for Musk as a person. It'll be unfortunate if his arrogance with Tesla ends SpaceX and Solar.



Thats the issue. You arent smart enough to even know. How can you wheb you don't even know what you dont know?

 :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

The hate is easy to understand. 1) he's rich, 2) he's very arrogant 3) he is attempting to hurt something we love, ICE vehicles and 4) he's doing it in a way that doesn't make sense to outside observers. 

I think when we are really thinking, most of us admit we admire him, we admire his achievements, and we want him to succeed. He's got vision, which is actually pretty rare.

I give him a coin-flip chance of remaining with Tesla long enough for them to become profitable. But I'm a BIG proponent of electric vehicles. I think they absolutely will have 50% of the market in my lifetime.

----------


## suntan

He lets ego run his life. That's a big problem when you're the CEO of a company.

----------


## rage2

> I still really don’t understand the Musk hate. It’s very confusing and weirdly personal. I don’t know why people want one less car company and one less space company. Aren’t we all better off with his companies succeeding?



I can't speak for others, but I don't want Tesla to fail. I don't hate Musk, but I do hate that he's train wrecked a golden opportunity. Tesla could've been so much more if he wasn't so arrogant and egotistical in doing things his way. Nothing we can do here can change what's going to happen with Tesla, good or bad. For me, it's an opportunity to piggyback of the craziness and make some money.




> We are all in. Took tjis latest #fakenews cycle to almoat double our Tesla stock holdings. Moved some things around and bought abother 500 shares.



I'll give credit where credit is due, you've got balls. I've been seeing more people go all in on Tesla lately, reminded me of the last days of Bre-X, except this is much crazier as it's not a penny stock like Bre-X was.

----------


## Darkane

> I can't speak for others, but I don't want Tesla to fail. I don't hate Musk, but I do hate that he's train wrecked a golden opportunity. Tesla could've been so much more if he wasn't so arrogant and egotistical in doing things his way. Nothing we can do here can change what's going to happen with Tesla, good or bad. For me, it's an opportunity to piggyback of the craziness and make some money.
> 
> 
> I'll give credit where credit is due, you've got balls. I've been seeing more people go all in on Tesla lately, reminded me of the last days of Bre-X, except this is much crazier as it's not a penny stock like Bre-X was.



That’s an additional $150,000 of Tesla. Do you believe him or is he power-trolling now?

----------


## rage2

> That’s an additional $150,000 of Tesla. Do you believe him or is he power-trolling now?



I just assumed he moved a significant (or entire) portion of his portfolio over. He did say he's going all in.

----------


## benyl

I don't hate Musk. I hate the lack of follow through on promises. Where is the $35K Model 3? Too big, too fast. 

I hope Tesla *doesn't* go bankrupt. That would destroy a lot of lives. I do hate the sheeple. The closed mindedness is cult like.

We are seriously contemplating building in Echo Haven in Rocky Ridge. Putting our money into efficiency. It isn't about being a tree hugger.

----------


## rage2

> Putting our money into efficiency.



Didn't you just buy an expedition?  :ROFL!:

----------


## JustinL

> That’s an additional $150,000 of Tesla. Do you believe him or is he power-trolling now?



And if it was almost doubling his holdings, then we're talking about over $300,000 USD. Balls of steel indeed.

----------


## Xtrema

> Didn't you just buy an expedition?



Think of the carpooling you can do tho.

----------


## benyl

> Didn't you just buy an expedition?



 :Wink:  It takes less gas than my F150. *ECO*boost V6T! haha

There is only 1 tesla owner in that neighborhood. He also has the most solar panels. There are a bunch of F150s in the drive ways. I'll fit right in. haha.

----------


## Buster

> Didn't you just buy an expedition?



Indeed...he went all in with two-tone paint and everything.

 :ROFL!:

----------


## Darkane

> And if it was almost doubling his holdings, then we're talking about over $300,000 USD. Balls of steel indeed.



That’s what I’m saying. Can’t see it.

----------


## msommers

> Indeed...he went all in with two-tone paint and everything.



Low blow  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

> Or he is a fake Internet troll who doesn't own any Tesla stock at all, let alone a Tesla car



or every time he says "we" its actually his boss... who is also the same person that has the tesla  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> A lot of speculation lately that Tesla might be running out of cash... it even has the suppliers spooked. 18 out of 22 surveyed felt that Tesla now represents a serious financial risk to their company. Additionally 1 in 3 think that they are heading for bankruptcy.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/supp...-survey-2018-8
> 
> The thing to remember about suppliers is that because of the nature of their relationship with companies that have accounts with them, they are often a lot more perceptive to the financial well being of their clients than anyone else. They have to be, otherwise they will get burned for outstanding accounts.



The fact Tesla asked suppliers to give them a break to keep them alive a few months back would pretty much guaranteed this survey result.

This is why I'm surprised they slow down the lines. I thought they would need every dime they can get their hands on to survive Q3. Why slow it down? If orders are lacking then open it up for the rest of the world.

----------


## Gestalt

Teslas biggest threat to date.

The ak47 maker  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!: 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...etro-prototype

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-a-35...-no-1534436452

I envision that 1 $35K Model 3 will only be built/allocated for every 10 LR AWD model delivered of the offset the loss.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> I see the Fremont Tesla facility had a massive fire yesterday



Little fire. Burnt a bit of 1 tent.

https://electrek.co/2018/08/23/tesla...buidling-tent/

----------


## Sugarphreak

..

----------


## My_name_is_Rob

Shareholders: OMG there was a fire! How are things??

Tesla: Everything is fine

Narrator: Everything was not fine...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Tik-Tok

> It works best if you imagine Morgan Freeman saying the last line



Nah, Ron Howard.

The whole Bluth family theme kind of goes well with Tesla, I think.

----------


## Xtrema

> Nah, Ron Howard.
> 
> The whole Bluth family theme kind of goes well with Tesla, I think.





Replace G.O.B with Elon and blast that final countdown theme.



Today's Tesla(ish) news:
Factory I-Pace faster than Factory P100D on the track.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/08/24/...cord-ev-tesla/

----------


## rage2

Did not expect this haha. 

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/sta...ic?redirect=no

Love how he throws in funding secured still true, just don’t wanna go private. Also hilarious that he summarized my retail investors post in a single stupid sentence: “There is also no proven path for most retail investors to own shares if we were private.”

There is no proven path because there are laws to prevent that from happening to protect investors.  :crazy nut:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Sorry, what I meant was I did not expect this to happen this quickly.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

Nobody here actuality went all in dude.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> I wonder what the stock will do now that a 420 buyout is off the table? Ooohhhhh, would suck if you went all in recently!



The fanboys are now saying $420 is too low and glad it's staying in public because it's going to worth thousands soon.




> Did not expect this haha. 
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/sta...ic?redirect=no
> 
> Love how he throws in funding secured still true, just don’t wanna go private. Also hilarious that he summarized my retail investors post in a single stupid sentence: “There is also no proven path for most retail investors to own shares if we were private.”
> 
> There is no proven path because there are laws to prevent that from happening to protect investors.




Easy money for Lakeside and Goldman Sach just so he can write this post.

----------


## Gestalt

> The fanboys are now saying $420 is too low and glad it's staying in public because it's going to worth thousands soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy money for Lakeside and Goldman Sach just so he can write this post.



Tesla is the big company of our time.

It will be bigger then apple.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Go on, finish your "thought". Then apple what?

----------


## msommers

At this point you know you're basically picking on a disabled kid. Give it a rest.

----------


## Darkane

> Tesla is the big company of our time.
> 
> It will be bigger then apple.



The market for the product isn’t big enough. Everyone seems to ‘need’ a phone, or pad, but nobody ‘needs’ an electric vehicle.

----------


## tirebob

> Nobody here actuality went all in dude.



Actually, I think it did go all in... It just actually moved some stuff around and bought another $500 worth of shares but mis-typed 500 shares, so now its $1000 portfolio is stretched to the max! It's Gonna be rich!!

----------


## Buster

> At this point you know you're basically picking on a disabled kid. Give it a rest.



I think it's just a game for both sides at this point.

----------


## dubhead

> The market for the product isnt big enough. Everyone seems to need a phone, or pad, but nobody needs an electric vehicle.



I would also say Apple started out at the beginning of new industry, with minimal competition. Telsa is entering a highly competitive auto industry trying to steal market share away from some of the most established brands on the planet, with what is still a niche product. If he really is successful in pushing electric cars past being a niche the auto industry won't be far behind in offering their own options.

----------


## ZenOps

I got no problem bashing Combustion engine vehicles. They suck ass, they require stupid amounts of maintenance and ridiculous levels of complexity to gain the simple motion of turning a wheel. Of course having a combustion vehicle that sucks ass - is "great" for people who sell cars every 7 years and have to maintain them when a bolt, cable, tube, or belt out of a thousand comes loose.

I can imagine if they use higher quality components (maglev) an electric motor could probably last 200 years. I don't think its good for the economy, specifically the USA economy, to have anything last that long though.

In the long run, since a combustion engine tops out at 21% rotational efficiency, there is an actual physical limit to how hot the metals inside can get, limiting its top speed. I mean you can only use explosions to power a vehicle for "so long". You could technically change from gasoline to gunpowder, but that too would very quickly melt most metals in a sustained combustion.

The main problem with electric cars is not the engine. The engine is stupidly better than combustion. The "problem" is the batteries.

The main problem with combustion cars is trying to keep the economy alive. I mean, how do you pay a kid to cut the grass if you have decided to have a yard that has no grass (too high maintenance, no actual benefit) Electric cars could potentially destroy economies based on combustion engine maintenance, and I think many people know it.

Why am I posting this on a car enthusiast forum? Because I like pointing glaring faults at things. Bash, bash, bash - until it doesn't get up again.

----------


## speedog

> I got no problem bashing Combustion engine vehicles. They suck ass, they require stupid amounts of maintenance and ridiculous levels of complexity to gain the simple motion of turning a wheel. Of course having a combustion vehicle that sucks ass - is "great" for people who sell cars every 7 years and have to maintain them when a bolt, cable, tube, or belt out of a thousand comes loose.
> 
> I can imagine if they use higher quality components (maglev) an electric motor could probably last 200 years. I don't think its good for the economy, specifically the USA economy, to have anything last that long though.
> 
> In the long run, since a combustion engine tops out at 21% rotational efficiency, there is an actual physical limit to how hot the metals inside can get, limiting its top speed. I mean you can only use explosions to power a vehicle for "so long". You could technically change from gasoline to gunpowder, but that too would very quickly melt most metals in a sustained combustion.
> 
> The main problem with electric cars is not the engine. The engine is stupidly better than combustion. The "problem" is the batteries.

----------


## rage2

> I got no problem bashing Combustion engine vehicles. They suck ass, they require stupid amounts of maintenance and ridiculous levels of complexity to gain the simple motion of turning a wheel. Of course having a combustion vehicle that sucks ass - is "great" for people who sell cars every 7 years and have to maintain them when a bolt, cable, tube, or belt out of a thousand comes loose.
> 
> I can imagine if they use higher quality components (maglev) an electric motor could probably last 200 years. I don't think its good for the economy, specifically the USA economy, to have anything last that long though.
> 
> In the long run, since a combustion engine tops out at 21% rotational efficiency, there is an actual physical limit to how hot the metals inside can get, limiting its top speed. I mean you can only use explosions to power a vehicle for "so long". You could technically change from gasoline to gunpowder, but that too would very quickly melt most metals in a sustained combustion.
> 
> The main problem with electric cars is not the engine. The engine is stupidly better than combustion. The "problem" is the batteries.
> 
> The main problem with combustion cars is trying to keep the economy alive. I mean, how do you pay a kid to cut the grass if you have decided to have a yard that has no grass (too high maintenance, no actual benefit) Electric cars could potentially destroy economies based on combustion engine maintenance, and I think many people know it.
> ...



The combustion engine has evolved to the point where maintenance and reliability really isn’t a big factor anymore. The things that break and require maintenance on a car is mostly everything else that surrounds the engine, from infotainment, to HVAC, to mechanical such as suspension. EVs don’t really have a cost advantage here either. Go look at Tesla, even with their simplicity surrounding the drivetrain, their yearly maintenance costs $600USD/$800CAD with most of it being labor hours to inspect the battery and motors.

As for efficiency, ICE is up to 40%, with F1 engines at over 50% with MGU-H ERS systems. The waste energy isn’t wasted in winter for us though so that’s a bonus for us here. EVs have their drawbacks too in terms of efficiency that isn’t counted, from transmission losses, charging losses, to losses within the battery during storage. Tesla estimates 1% loss per day from sitting with everything such as cabin overheat protection turned off.

----------


## Xtrema

https://youtu.be/e7dCeRm58fo?t=282

If you think your Tesla will run forever....

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

Take it from a licensed tech. Ice is a joke. Its time is over.

Btw legal expert's, Ontario judge ruled in teslas favor.

----------


## benyl

> Take it from a licensed tech. Ice is a joke. Its time is over.
> 
> Btw legal expert's, Ontario judge ruled in teslas favor.



The subsidy is still gone. Ontario did discriminate. Anyone can see that. The result wasn't surprising.

----------


## Xtrema

Elon still tweeting, double down on Pedo and that he didn't cry during NYT interview.

https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-is-do...ing-1828662461

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## mazdavirgin

> Elon still tweeting, double down on Pedo and that he didn't cry during NYT interview.
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-is-do...ing-1828662461



What a total tool. Can't believe he's doubling down on his dumb ass comments.

----------


## rage2

> What a total tool. Can't believe he's doubling down on his dumb ass comments.



https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...eatened-to-sue

Lawyer confirms that they sent that letter to Elon a few weeks ago. They've been waiting for his response, but pretty clear they're going to file now.

Best show this season hands down.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...eatened-to-sue
> 
> Lawyer confirms that they sent that letter to Elon a few weeks ago. They've been waiting for his response, but pretty clear they're going to file now.
> 
> Best show this season hands down.



Now I wonder if Elon is wants the board to fire him so when Tesla goes down, it won't be under his watch.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Now I wonder if Elon is wants the board to fire him so when Tesla goes down, it won't be under his watch.



Does he get a golden handshake? Tough to tell what his actual liquid assets are, majority of his wealth appears to be billions in Tesla stock.

That would be rough, going from one of the richest people in the world to having under $100mil in actual worth!

----------


## Xtrema

> Does he get a golden handshake? Tough to tell what his actual liquid assets are, majority of his wealth appears to be billions in Tesla stock.
> 
> That would be rough, going from one of the richest people in the world to having under $100mil in actual worth!



Well, it would be his own doing anyway. But the people he drag down along with him tho.....



I found this graph as good view on how much Tesla owe going forward.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Network outage is nothing new, pretty much a monthly occurrence since the 3 came out. It’s affecting 3 owners more than anything since it doesn’t come with a key, and the phone key app is flaky. Owners would keep their emergency key cards in the glove box and use the network connection to unlock and start the car, or to retrieve the key.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Probably only affects owners who have made negative social media comments in the past. Ol' Musky is on a revenge mission.

At least no one's in a rocket right now.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Ford has had its credit rating downgraded. This isn't good news, as it affects thier ability to access additional capital at reasonable interest rates. But hey, at least they are still better than Tesla! 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...nk/1135563002/

Ford now at Baa3, the lowest "investment grade rating. 
Tesla is at B3, which is solid" junk" status.

----------


## My_name_is_Rob

> At least no one's in a rocket right now.



Maybe not technically, but you have to give them props for trying. 

Tesla owner presses the 'Full Send' button

----------


## dirtsniffer



----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

Unrealistic tweets aside, 4600 per week isn't bad, or rather it wouldn't be if they were of reasonable quality. Totally appropriate for a fledgling automaker with a niche product. 

Now if those 4600 have poor quality and need extensive post-assembly rework and post-delivery complaints, then it's less impressive. 

Most automakers would have steadily improving quality by this point. Hopefully Tesla is on that path now too.

----------


## Xtrema

> Bloomberg made a Model 3 production tracker:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
> 
> As of today:
> 
> 80,383
> Total cars
> 
> 4,588
> Per week



Still the most aggressive volume of ALL EV makers.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## J-hop

Neat CNBC piece on one Tesla owner. I havent searched around but hopefully they at some point release tech manuals to the public. I would never want to own a car I couldnt fix, though its possible to do without tech manuals it requires bigger balls

----------


## mazdavirgin

> Neat CNBC piece on one Tesla owner. I havent searched around but hopefully they at some point release tech manuals to the public. I would never want to own a car I couldnt fix, though its possible to do without tech manuals it requires bigger balls



It's worse than that... The whole car is made to be unrepairable and as hard as possible to work on. Then they pull hilarious shit like this:



Refusing to perform safety recalls? Yup good old tesla. What a POS car company.

----------


## J-hop

> It's worse than that... The whole car is made to be unrepairable and as hard as possible to work on. Then they pull hilarious shit like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Refusing to perform safety recalls? Yup good old tesla. What a POS car company.



That’s pretty bad. I would have thought they would make it as easy and cheap to repair as possible to encourage the masses to buy them. Right now there is no push by consumers for electric cars so you need some other selling point which should IMO be extremely cheap maintenance costs. There is no reason in my eyes why other than the batteries an electric car shouldn’t be drastically cheaper to maintain.

Deeming vehicles “unrepairable” even after they’ve been recertified for road use is moronic at best

----------


## Xtrema

> True, but still shy of their production goal of 6000 by a significant amount. That is vital cash flow for them; 75% of target production isn't going to cut it if they want to stay in business.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that up to this point Tesla has been pretty much the only game in town. With cars like the Jaguar I-Pace and now the Mercedes EQC (Teaser today, reveal tomorrow), that segment is going to get pretty crowded and fast. BMW and Audi are going to be launching EV cars soon, meanwhile GM, Kia and Toyota are steadily looking to fill out the lower end market.



So far iPace and Kona are both expected to produce around 20-25K/year.

I expect E-tron and EQC will also only have token volume as well. 

Also surprised that EQC didn't get MBUX like A class (at least it doesn't look like it does).

----------


## speedog

Is any of this much different than John Deere controlling their machinery that they sell to people or Apple controlling the phones they sell to people? Do you actually own your connected device/implement or are you just paying a fee for the privilege of using it?

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Is any of this much different than John Deere controlling their machinery that they sell to people or Apple controlling the phones they sell to people? Do you actually own your connected device/implement or are you just paying a fee for the privilege of using it?



Lots of people on here are just bitching. Hell, 1/2 of Beyonders don't work on their own cars so it doesn't matter. But they'll bitch about it  :ROFL!:

----------


## J-hop

> Lots of people on here are just bitching. Hell, 1/2 of Beyonders don't work on their own cars so it doesn't matter. But they'll bitch about it



I think it’s a legitimate criticism. Why try to monopolize the repair side of things to the point where the average person doesn’t want to own one?

----------


## Darell_n

> I think it’s a legitimate criticism. Why try to monopolize the repair side of things to the point where the average person doesn’t want to own one?



It’s common with new technology. An example is the 8-speed transmission in a Ram, when it first became available it was to be sent back to corporate if there were issues. The dealers weren’t even allowed to work on them.

----------


## J-hop

> It’s common with new technology. An example is the 8-speed transmission in a Ram, when it first became available it was to be sent back to corporate if there were issues. The dealers weren’t even allowed to work on them.



Oh yea I completely get that... but the model S is 6 years old now (longer than the ram has had the 8 speed!)

----------


## rage2

> Lots of people on here are just bitching. Hell, 1/2 of Beyonders don't work on their own cars so it doesn't matter. But they'll bitch about it



But we choose who we get to fix the car and not have to go to the dealership, so it does matter.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> Rough day for Tesla, stock dipped below that formerly impenetrable barrier of 300 this morning
> 
> I wonder if the market is reacting more to the missed targets or MB's new electric vehicle launch today?
> 
> 
> also this week:



I find this astounding. 

Tesla was only ever going to be a viable company until the real auto manufacturers decided that it was time to push into electric vehicles.

I think that people in Tesla are perhaps the dumbest of investors - tech investors.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> But we choose who we get to fix the car and not have to go to the dealership, so it does matter.



Really? You don't take your MB or Lexus to a dealership?

----------


## rage2

> Rough day for Tesla, stock dipped below that formerly impenetrable barrier of 300 this morning
> 
> I wonder if the market is reacting more to the missed targets or MB's new electric vehicle launch today?



Tesla's been <300 several times this year. That's been one of the simple patterns the last couple of quarters, buy under 300, sell over 350. I'm not taking a risk this round, although I called for profitability for Q3, there are a couple things I've noticed cropping up that will put profitability under risk:

- Leaked production data showing they're under Q3 production target (roughly where I've estimated it at between 3500-4000/week).
- Fans are getting turned off with poor quality. In the old days, if you had problems with your Tesla, NBD, I'll drive my other other Benz. Model 3 owners are spending 3x their typical car budget, so they're a lot more sensitive to problems.


The price drop today is most likely due to analyst downgrades this morning. Goldman also resumed their analyst this morning now that the private merger is completely dead.

----------


## rage2

> Really? You don't take your MB or Lexus to a dealership?



Well those are new cars under warranty, so yea, they go to the dealership. My last out of warranty car was my Porsche 911 which I never took to the dealership for service.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Lots of people on here are just bitching. Hell, 1/2 of Beyonders don't work on their own cars so it doesn't matter. But they'll bitch about it



I think the repair cost has direct implication for insurance premium cost.




> Rough day for Tesla, stock dipped below that formerly impenetrable barrier of 300 this morning
> 
> I wonder if the market is reacting more to the missed targets or MB's new electric vehicle launch today?



Goldman Sach goes back to Tesla bashing mode, expect stock to drop 30% within 6 months siting: 1) competition from MB/Audi, 2) missed Model 3 target, 3) end of incentives while other manufacturers will enjoy them for years to come.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Buster

> I think the repair cost has direct implication for insurance premium cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Goldman Sach goes back to Tesla bashing mode, expect stock to drop 30% within 6 months siting: 1) competition from MB/Audi, 2) missed Model 3 target, 3) end of incentives while other manufacturers will enjoy them for years to come.



Probably a buy signal those fuckers.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> Well those are new cars under warranty, so yea, they go to the dealership.



Same with anybody that buys a new Tesla. Nobody gives a shit 5 years from now when out of warranty. Come on now, you obviously realize this. Car manufacturers don't give a shit about viability after warranty, which is a perfectly valid business decision.




> It is always nice to have that option



Ya, but you aren't normal. Rage just proved my exact point, Tesla owners don't give a shit, and why would Tesla give a crap about the used market? If anything, that just means there will be a HUGE business opportunity for someone to do the legwork to figure out how to maintain these cars. After warranty/payments are done.

----------


## Xtrema

> Lots of power, but the range is only 200 miles... less than Tesla and Jaguar; wtf Mercedes? It was rumored to be north of 300 miles, so that is a pretty major disappointment.



Looking at the tech diagram, this looks like a bastardized GLC. There is a lot of unnecessary weight add to the car like that steel cage protecting the drive unit in the front but in the shape of a traditional engine and transmission combo.

iPace is definitely a better designed EV.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Looking at the tech diagram, this looks like a bastardized GLC. There is a lot of unnecessary weight add to the car like that steel cage protecting the drive unit in the front but in the shape of a traditional engine and transmission combo.
> 
> iPace is definitely a better designed EV.



iPace is kinda inefficient though, and slow to charge as well.

For EV SUV's, Model X leads the way in efficiency at 36 kWh/100 miles. iPace sits at 44 kWh/100 miles, while the EQC (based on just specs and not actual testing) sits right in the middle at 40kWh/100 miles. What's even more weird is that the iPace is the lightest of the 3.

----------


## ercchry

> Same with anybody that buys a new Tesla. Nobody gives a shit 5 years from now when out of warranty. Come on now, you obviously realize this. Car manufacturers don't give a shit about viability after warranty, which is a perfectly valid business decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya, but you aren't normal. Rage just proved my exact point, Tesla owners don't give a shit, and why would Tesla give a crap about the used market? If anything, that just means there will be a HUGE business opportunity for someone to do the legwork to figure out how to maintain these cars. After warranty/payments are done.



i would care, thats going to have a direct effect on resale. would be on the level of an out of warranty 7 series or similar. huge cost of ownership if you cant recover much of the purchase price when its time to move on

----------


## rage2

> Same with anybody that buys a new Tesla. Nobody gives a shit 5 years from now when out of warranty. Come on now, you obviously realize this. Car manufacturers don't give a shit about viability after warranty, which is a perfectly valid business decision.



Are you telling me that Tesla's magically gets junked after 5 years? Yes people give a shit 5 years from now when out of warranty, those are called used car buyers. Also, there are laws that require car manufactures give a shit for this exact reason, which Tesla is arguably not complying with.




> Ya, but you aren't normal. Rage just proved my exact point, Tesla owners don't give a shit, and why would Tesla give a crap about the used market? If anything, that just means there will be a HUGE business opportunity for someone to do the legwork to figure out how to maintain these cars. After warranty/payments are done.



But Tesla owners are starting to give a shit because it's not just millionaires buying their cars anymore.

----------


## Xtrema

> iPace is kinda inefficient though, and slow to charge as well.
> 
> For EV SUV's, Model X leads the way in efficiency at 36 kWh/100 miles. iPace sits at 44 kWh/100 miles, while the EQC (based on just specs and not actual testing) sits right in the middle at 40kWh/100 miles. What's even more weird is that the iPace is the lightest of the 3.



Shouldn't iPace be at 37.4kwh/100 miles? It's supposed to do 240mi with a 90kwh pack.

----------


## rage2

> Shouldn't iPace be at 37.4kwh/100 miles? It's supposed to do 240mi with a 90kwh pack.



I dunno, I pulled my numbers from a pro Tesla blog site. They claim those are the test #'s on an unnamed route. Maybe they're making shit up too?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> I dunno, I pulled my numbers from a pro Tesla blog site. They claim those are the test #'s on an unnamed route. Maybe they're making shit up too?



Well, real life numbers could be different.

But benchracing, Model X 90D only have 17mi more than iPace with the same 90kwh pack.

EDIT: NEDC has Model X 100D at 350mi vs iPace's 337mi.

I wonder if Mercedes quoted the range of EQC based on have 10% of those 80kwh blocked off for battery longevity.

----------


## rage2

Almost rear ended a Model 3 today on Crowchild in traffic on the way home. Everyone going at typical crowchild speed, 90km/h or so when it suddenly panic brakes for no reason at all. Had to panic brake and take the shoulder lane to avoid getting rear ended myself. Wasn’t even following that close, had next to no reaction time. Was a huge gongshow of cars all over the place and horns behind me. 

Pretty sure this is the autopilot phantom braking bug. They gotta fix this shit.

----------


## dirtsniffer

Do you think a dash cam could get you out of trouble if you rear ended them?

----------


## speedog

> Almost rear ended a Model 3 today on Crowchild in traffic on the way home. Everyone going at typical crowchild speed, 90km/h or so when it suddenly panic brakes for no reason at all. Had to panic brake and take the shoulder lane to avoid getting rear ended myself. Wasn’t even following that close, had next to no reaction time. Was a huge gongshow of cars all over the place and horns behind me. 
> 
> Pretty sure this is the autopilot phantom braking bug. They gotta fix this shit.



Wtf were you doing on Crowchild as opposed to your secret way home?

----------


## rage2

> Do you think a dash cam could get you out of trouble if you rear ended them?



No clue. Lucky my car has brake assist and started braking before I could even react. Clearly the car behind me didn’t have it and would’ve rear ended me if I didn’t steer away. 




> Wtf were you doing on Crowchild as opposed to your secret way home?



Crowchild past McMahon is free flowing at 90 during the worst of rush hour. It’s the fastest way home.

----------


## J-hop

> Really? You don't take your MB or Lexus to a dealership?



Not a fair comparison at all. There are 96 total retail and service locations for Tesla in the entire US (only reference I could find put the number of actual service centers around 70. There are 368 MB service centers and 236 Lexus.

Tesla dealers are so sparse it doesn’t make sense to make repairs proprietary to Tesla. Further any shop can do basic services to a MB or a Lexus and get you back on the road. No shop can/would touch a Tesla. That’s stupid IMO. And moronic that if I ever wanted to own one I’d be at a severe disadvantage. Would pretty much be guessing with everything (edit: or trying pirate a copy of the tech manuals off someone from Mass.-see below). Hey I’ll just take the torque specs for control arm bolts and average them out over 10 other brands and hope I’m close. Eff that man (I think you’d agree.......)


Edit: haha what are the chances, I just googled Tesla and control arm to see if someone had the specs released to them and apparently that is a known failure point on the model S

According to one thread if you live in Massachusetts you can get the manuals some how, someone posted nut torque specs but who knows if those are right. I like Mass.’s style, apparently they have a “right to repair” legislation so Tesla is legally required to allow residents access to the manuals.

----------


## Jlude

I read this thread mostly for the varying array of perspectives. I ordered a 2019 Model S and even reading the negative posts, I still wouldn’t change anything. I certainly am apprehensive about the quality of the vehicle (delivery in 2 weeks) and hope for no issues, but if there are, I’ll get them fixed. I don’t usually keep cars beyond 4 years, so warranty isn’t going to be an issue for me, however I have no doubt that resale value in 4 years will not be great. Time will tell. Who knows, maybe it ends up being the best/problem free car I’ve ever known. 

Also, maybe 
@Sugarphreak
 is wrong, who knows  :Smilie:

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## rage2

> I read this thread mostly for the varying array of perspectives. I ordered a 2019 Model S and even reading the negative posts, I still wouldnt change anything. I certainly am apprehensive about the quality of the vehicle (delivery in 2 weeks) and hope for no issues, but if there are, Ill get them fixed. I dont usually keep cars beyond 4 years, so warranty isnt going to be an issue for me, however I have no doubt that resale value in 4 years will not be great. Time will tell. Who knows, maybe it ends up being the best/problem free car Ive ever known. 
> 
> Also, maybe 
> @Sugarphreak
>  is wrong, who knows



Sugarphreak is just having fun in this thread. The odds of you getting a poor Model S is much lower than a Model 3. Model S is mostly figured out. It's a fun car, enjoy it.

Just watch out for phantom braking while on autopilot until they fix the bug. Apparently after some reading on it last night, it affects all AP2.5 cars, from newer Model S/X to every Model 3. TMC forums has a whole bunch of threads regarding the problem, and a few that actually got rear ended when it happened. Consensus is that it's mistaking shadows under bridges for actual objects, and panic braking from the false reading.

----------


## Buster

Just in case, I did find a Tesla repair kit.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

Musk continues to be incredibly butthurt about the cave diver pedo thing. In coincidental parallel to Trump, also fails to understand how "off the record" works.

Imagine if the guy really was a pedo though, haha.

----------


## rage2

> Musk continues to be incredibly butthurt about the cave diver pedo thing. In coincidental parallel to Trump, also fails to understand how "off the record" works.
> 
> Imagine if the guy really was a pedo though, haha.



Elon says there's only one reason to go to Pattaya Beach. I've been a bunch of times. Fuck me, I'm a pedo too.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Elon says there's only one reason to go to Pattaya Beach. I've been a bunch of times. Fuck me, I'm a pedo too.



That classic driver's license photo of yours just seals the deal, man.

----------


## Lex350

> Not really, this car won Motor Trends car of the year




some other cars that won "the prestigious" Motor Trend car of the year:

2010 Ford Fusion
2005 Chrysler 300
2002 Ford Thunderbird
2001 PT Cruiser
2000 Lincoln LS
1995 Chrysler Cirrus
1993 Ford Probe
1991 Chev Caprice Classic
1983 AMC Alliance
1979 Buick Riviera
1978 Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon
1974 Mustang 2


So forgive any of us that don't put any stock into what Motor Trends say. The Car of the Year thing is pure promotional garbage.

----------


## rage2

The actual buzzfeed article is pretty damning.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...buzzfeed-email

Everyone that Elon says vouches for him refutes every one of his claims.  :Shock: 




> Among Musk’s other claims about Unsworth is that he was not part of the actual dive team in the Thailand cave rescue. While Unsworth did not dive for the mission, media reports and other people who were part of the rescue cited the Brit as instrumental to the effort, as he had previously mapped and explored some of the cave system and recruited some of the divers who went into the cave.
> 
> “He may claim to know how to cave dive, but he wasn’t on the cave dive rescue team and most of the actual dive team refused to hang out with him,” Musk wrote in one email. In another email in which Musk wrote “on background” — BuzzFeed News again did not agree to these terms — the Tesla CEO said, “Never saw Unsworth at any point. Was told he was banned from the site.”
> 
> A British diver on the rescue mission who had previously been in contact with Musk, Rick Stanton, denied those claims.
> 
> “I've no idea what gave you those concerns about Vern,” Stanton wrote over Facebook Messenger. “They are completely unfounded. He was never kicked off site by anyone and worked continuously on the rescue for the full duration. He was pivotal to the entire operation.”
> …
> Photos and videos posted on Facebook by Woranan and members of the local Thai news media show Unsworth at the site through the duration of the operation, which lasted more than two weeks in the country’s Chiang Rai province. Some of those photos show Unsworth posing with other British members involved with the rescue.



Stanton was the guy that Elon emailed with on building the sub. Elon says he was the leader of the dive team even though he wasn't.




> In addition, Musk claimed that the mini-sub, which ultimately was not used in the rescue, was built to Stanton’s specifications, and that it was not deployed only because too much water had been drained from the cave. Stanton, however, denied that was the reason, and said he did not recall providing exact specifications to Musk.
> 
> “We didn't use the tube because rescue operations were already well underway and it didn't have the necessary life support systems,” Stanton said to BuzzFeed News on Facebook Messenger. “Essentially, it wasn't developed enough. I do think it has promise in certain situations and I hope they keep working on it to get it in shape for evaluation and to be considered as a viable alternative in future underwater rescue scenarios.”



Well 
@Gestalt
 is clearly wrong from a few pages back. Straight from the mouth of the guy that Elon was talking to.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

Elon is somwhere between John McAfee and Donald Trump.

Did I read somewhere up there that a Model3 is 3x more expensive than the average car bought by those currently purchasing it?

----------


## suntan

Hmm. Time to buy TSLA again.

Poor Gestalt, losing his shirt yet again.

----------


## Xtrema

> Did I read somewhere up there that a Model3 is 3x more expensive than the average car bought by those currently purchasing it?



If you consider most trade-ins are Civics and Accords.

https://electrek.co/2018/08/01/tesla...trade-in-cars/




> Elon says there's only one reason to go to Pattaya Beach. I've been a bunch of times. Fuck me, I'm a pedo too.



Search Pattaya on Youtube....... Elon may be right......  :Big Grin:

----------


## dirtsniffer

soo generally a class of people who need to care more if their 'key' won't let them in the vehicle.

----------


## Jlude

> Me wrong? Hahaha
> 
> Seriously though, take my posts here with a grain of salt. I'm not nearly as invested in my arguments as it seems.
> 
> Congrats on your order!



Certainly I'm not cancelling my order because of your posts  :ROFL!: 




> Sugarphreak is just having fun in this thread. The odds of you getting a poor Model S is much lower than a Model 3. Model S is mostly figured out. It's a fun car, enjoy it.
> 
> Just watch out for phantom braking while on autopilot until they fix the bug. Apparently after some reading on it last night, it affects all AP2.5 cars, from newer Model S/X to every Model 3. TMC forums has a whole bunch of threads regarding the problem, and a few that actually got rear ended when it happened. Consensus is that it's mistaking shadows under bridges for actual objects, and panic braking from the false reading.



I'm not that worried, I've been seeing guys post feedback on their cars and deliveries over the last few weeks, they're mostly positive. 

Yes, I've been reading about the phantom braking on TMC also. Hopefully they get it worked out soon.

----------


## dirtsniffer

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/bus...1_4081107.html

Another law suit. Person complains that sales person over sold auto pilot

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## rage2

> https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/bus...1_4081107.html
> 
> Another law suit. Person complains that sales person over sold auto pilot



While my gf had first hand experience of Tesla sales people overselling auto pilot, it won't win in court. I mean, she had to read and click a massive disclaimer on autopilot before she could turn it on. It's also documented everywhere in the manual if you read it that it's not self driving. Even the website the way it presents autopilot as self driving with a disclaimer has held up in court.

edit - Tesla's Chief Accounting Officer quits after a month. Stock drops 25 points this morning.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Hr head quits too
https://business.financialpost.com/t...-after-joining

----------


## Gestalt

Epic. Full 2.5 hours on Vimeo

https://vimeo.com/288699434

----------


## Strider

> Stock drops 25 points this morning.



I'd hate to be all-in at $320 right now.

$30,000 gone in 2 weeks

----------


## Xtrema

> Hr head quits too
> https://business.financialpost.com/t...-after-joining



Can't blame HR quits. Now she can't enforce anything on the factory floor with CEO smoking pot publicly.

Now all Teslas are built by pot heads in a tent, great.

----------


## HiTempguy1

So is he actually going crazy?

There was obviously signs he was having difficulties, but it appears he has lost any form of inhibition towards doing stupid things that jeopardize the company. I'm assuming they'll remove him as CEO? Literally by himself, he has dropped the stock $40 from what I'd call its floor (baring any bad news) of ~$300usd this past 6-12 months.

Some people made some serious coin if they bought at $280 right before the "funding secured" announcement.

----------


## Gestalt

> So is he actually going crazy?
> 
> There was obviously signs he was having difficulties, but it appears he has lost any form of inhibition towards doing stupid things that jeopardize the company. I'm assuming they'll remove him as CEO? Literally by himself, he has dropped the stock $40 from what I'd call its floor (baring any bad news) of ~$300usd this past 6-12 months.
> 
> Some people made some serious coin if they bought at $280 right before the "funding secured" announcement.



he's a man that is held back by constraints of expectations. he's much better "free".

The stock will follow once they shake out the idiots naysayers. 

there would be no tesla, boring company, spacex or the massive technological and industry advancements if he adhered to what you think is "resposnible" or "normal"

----------


## googe

He isn’t going crazy. I would say he is holding up like a champ given his situation. Running multiple companies right at the edge with billions being bet for and against you, meanwhile everyone is constantly shitting on everything you do or say, would have most people screaming from a padded room.

Also, nobody in California or any west coast state gives a shit about weed. It’s legal and there are stores everywhere. It’s weird to see the media pay any attention to it at all, but I guess that isn’t the case everywhere.

Man what a boring interview though. 

The only thing mildly interesting was these Tesla easter eggs. You can make your car dance to TSO?  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> He isn’t going crazy. I would say he is holding up like a champ given his situation. Running multiple companies right at the edge with billions being bet for and against you, meanwhile everyone is constantly shitting on everything you do or say, would have most people screaming from a padded room.
> 
> Also, nobody in California or any west coast state gives a shit about weed. It’s legal and there are stores everywhere. It’s weird to see the media pay any attention to it at all, but I guess that isn’t the case everywhere.
> 
> Man what a boring interview though. 
> 
> The only thing mildly interesting was these Tesla easter eggs. You can make your car dance to TSO?



Pot is legal in Cali but not US.

Also he also created headwind for himself if he does want to expand into China and make the jobs tougher for everyone around him from HR to PR.

Just as PR going to put the spotlight on Roadster in Switzerland today, everyone is talking about Elon smoking pot. I would feel very discouraged if I am in charge of PR campaign and watch my CEO piss all over my hard work trying to save a company that the CEO clearly doesn't give a shit about.

----------


## googe

I seriously don’t think taking a drag off of a blunt made anyone’s job harder or impacted his ability to expand. It certainly had nothing to do with the departures today. Most execs have tried drugs and many do them regularly. Same goes for Tesla’s customers. He just forgot for a moment that we are still pretending this isn’t a big open secret because it has been normal for so long.

It was handed to him, he tried it in a small enough quantity so as to not feel anything, then he talked about how he doesn’t smoke weed because he needs to feel like he is doing something useful, and weed slows him down. Big deal?

----------


## Gestalt

#fakenews

always looking on a negative spina nd attack. small minds always threatened by great ones.

----------


## rage2

> It certainly had nothing to do with the departures today.



You're correct. The departures happened before today. It was just revealed today in the 8K filing.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## googe

> Most companies take their drug policies extremely seriously. This isn't so much about drug use as it is about adhering to professional ethics.



There is no ethical issue with taking a puff off of Rogan’s blunt after hours in a personal interview. He didn’t violate any policy. Most companies don’t take drug policies seriously because most companies don’t even have one (other than don’t bring your drugs to work). Tesla certainly doesn’t and I know that for a fact. Maybe certain factory jobs there do, can’t say for sure, but there is no company-wide policy that affects the office workers, unless it appeared in the last year.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gestalt

> I don't think too many people care so much that he smoked weed, it is more that he smoked weed while representing Tesla which actually violates their workplace policy. Most companies take their drug policies extremely seriously. This isn't so much about drug use as it is about adhering to professional ethics.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to lie, I bought a little bit of Tesla stock today, haha
> 
> Too much of a drop at once, should give a nice bounce before it slides again... but who knows, it is a gamble



Jealous hater to the core  :ROFL!:  haha you are silly^1000000^20

Representing? Please. Mind yiu spacex should be pissed he was repping the occupy mars t-shirt

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Maxt

> I'd hate to be all-in at $320 right now.
> 
> $30,000 gone in 2 weeks



 It's another buying opportunity, don't be so negative....

----------


## googe

> Telsa is going to have policies surrounding drug use, it would be crazy to think they didn't
> 
> CNBC thinks so as well, they also quote Tesla's Code of Business Conduct and Ethics
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/elon...king-weed.html



Seems like either I can’t read, or you and CNBC can’t read. Like I said, don’t bring drugs to work or do unsafe things under the influence. Doesn’t have anything to do with this situation at all. So much ado over nothing.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/air-...ng-source.html

----------


## rage2

> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/air-...ng-source.html



Damn, didn't think of that one. Ouch.

----------


## dirtsniffer

CAO quit as well.

----------


## Xtrema

> CAO quit as well.



Old news being drown out by weed. Official reason is strange but rumor mill analysis seems plausible.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/tesl...listening.html




> Damn, didn't think of that one. Ouch.



Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how this administration going to deal with this. Given Feds are lifetime banning Canadians working in the pot industry as well.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-ban-1.4745325

Now since Trump's Session is the one that cancelled old Obama rule, it would be interesting that Trump is the one the ends Elon.

----------


## Jlude

If you watched the podcast video, Elon did not inhale that smoke. "Not really feeling it" because he didn't inhale the smoke.

----------


## sabad66

> If you watched the podcast video, Elon did not inhale that smoke. "Not really feeling it" because he didn't inhale the smoke.



 :Werd!:  

was totally a Bill Clinton drag

----------


## googe

Whether shareholders care about making the company look bad, and how much, is a different question. The claim was that he violated a drug policy, which is ridiculous.

Nobody on a board really cares what CEOs do as long as they are making money. There won’t be any action from something that trivial and certainly no apology. If he gets thrown out as CEO, it will be for failing to deliver or lost confidence in his ability to deliver, not for being seen taking a puff.


The security clearance thing for spacex is more of a concern. Although that was apparently fake news?

“Reports of Air Force Reviewing Musk's Security Clearance Inaccurate: U.S. Air Force”
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018...air-force.html

Regardless of if they are looking into it or not, that can definitely jeopardize a clearance. Then again, so can criticizing Trump apparently.

----------


## ZenOps



----------


## Xtrema

Elon: We are about to have the most amazing quarter in our history.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/com...te?redirect=no

Sounds like he is getting help with a few promotions.

----------


## msommers

Buy stock now, sell immediately after PR. Wait for stock to fall until next PR announcement.

Rinse & repeat?

----------


## Gestalt

> Buy stock now, sell immediately after PR. Wait for stock to fall until next PR announcement.
> 
> Rinse & repeat?



people flipping stock never make as much money as they say they do. buy it and sit on it until its at $5000+ plus. what i lerned in real sestate, no one cares if they paid 250 or 300 for a house when it is worth $750. There is no company on the world like tesla. no one with the vision, or willigness to go for the cool shit. with the innovation and dirve, and people eager to support their ideas. their AI alone is years ahead of everyone.

----------


## Buster

"all in on Tesla"

Lol

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> their AI alone is years ahead of everyone.



He truly was.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Sold the stock I bought on Friday morning... was a nice little play!



https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/10/buy-...tory-tour.html

Once you figure out that the competitions are being hindered by legacy design and manufacturing and can't invest in battery production, you will understand that Tesla is quite ahead on battery and supercharger front.

Looking at EQC, it's being compromised because MB doesn't want to risk investing in their plants if EV fails in the end and can be converted to normal ICE production when needed.

----------


## rage2

> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/10/buy-...tory-tour.html
> 
> Once you figure out that the competitions are being hindered by legacy design and manufacturing and can't invest in battery production, you will understand that Tesla is quite ahead on battery and supercharger front.
> 
> Looking at EQC, it's being compromised because MB doesn't want to risk investing in their plants if EV fails in the end and can be converted to normal ICE production when needed.



The EQC is being compromised to allow Mercedes-Benz to make it profitable. It's a bridge vehicle that fits within their existing manufacturing process, and it sucks because it's a bridge vehicle with a ton of wasted efficiencies, but it's bridge vehicles like this that will pave the way for further adoption within the marque.

Charging front, not a huge deal, it's not a huge investment in the grand scheme of things to blanket the nation with chargers. I mean VW is forced to do it because of dieselgate, and they are forced to roll it out within 24 months. The problem is the progress of charging is moving forward at a rapid pace, and it's all sunk capital costs that needs additional reinvestment in a short period of time. It's a matter of waiting for the right time on the advancement curve and adoption curve to open up the checkbook.

Tesla's advantage is battery and motor. They've been able to make the most power dense batteries at the lowest weight and costs, and the most efficient and powerful motors at the lowest costs as well. It's just unfortunate they haven't been able to make money as a package and leverage their advantage. If Tesla does in fact end up getting restructured, there will be a huge lineup to buy out these advantages.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

VP of world wide finance resigned

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> VP of world wide finance resigned



To be fair, he left to take a CFO role at a different company, he didn't just up and quit.

----------


## Xtrema

Free supercharger access officially ends for ALL models, even with referral code.
https://electrek.co/2018/09/16/tesla...rcharging-era/

----------


## Jlude

> Free supercharger access officially ends for ALL models, even with referral code.
> https://electrek.co/2018/09/16/tesla...rcharging-era/



Glad I got mine in time.

----------


## googe

Looks like the pedo guy lawsuit landed. He better have a trump golden shower style dossier hidden away or his ego is in for quite a bruising.

----------


## triplep

> Looks like the pedo guy lawsuit landed. He better have a trump golden shower style dossier hidden away or his ego is in for quite a bruising.



And it looks like there is a criminal investigation now into Musk's "funding secured" tweets.

----------


## Xtrema

> And it looks like there is a criminal investigation now into Musk's "funding secured" tweets.






> Tesla: "Last month, following Elon's announcement that he was considering taking the company private, Tesla received a voluntary request for documents from the DOJ and has been cooperative in responding to it. We have not received a subpoena, a request for testimony or any other formal process. We respect the DOJ's desire to get information about this and believe that the matter should be quickly resolved as they review the information they have received."



Still, with so many challenges already (now after production is good, it's a logistic/delivery problem), Elon just keep piling on just for shits and giggles.

E-tron debut today.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/18/...uv-first-look/

Range not final but expecting 400km WLTP (which is around 600km NEDC and 220-250mi under EPA) off 95kwh battery. Seems to be on par with EQC.

Nothing really new other than subscription service on options (rent as needed) and integrated e-pedal into brake system (system automatically figure out if friction brakes need to come in or not).

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Nothing really new other than subscription service on options (rent as needed) and integrated e-pedal into brake system (system automatically figure out if friction brakes need to come in or not).



Im actually surprised they’re the first to do this. I always assumed that using brakes does not actually triggers friction brakes in an EV, but ramps up regen till friction brakes are needed. I’m almost certain Prius works that way. Looks like every other EVs rely on driver to manage that themselves through 1 pedal driving and friction brakes when using brake pedal.

----------


## npham

E-Tron looks good, right up there with the I-Pace, if not a bit better looking. The cameras + triangle displays are pretty sweet, but I doubt we'll see them in NA.

----------


## Xtrema

> E-Tron looks good, right up there with the I-Pace, if not a bit better looking. The cameras + triangle displays are pretty sweet, but I doubt we'll see them in NA.



Wonder if CETA will mean it can come to Canada as is. But if I'm a betting man, given VW has a mandate to build up EA, all EVs from VAG will be allotted to US instead of Canada.

Heck, even Hyundai has pretty much saod Canada won't get much of the Kona EVs unless a significant pre-order is received.

As for camera mirrors, looks like Lexus ES beat them to it but Lexus's implementation is less tasteful.

----------


## supe

https://electrek.co/2018/09/20/tesla...-rating-nhtsa/

Model 3 gets 5 star safety rating in every category. 

I've had my Model 3 for a week now and its excellent, I was one of the first in the city to get AWD. Autopilot has been amazing, especially TACC, driving down deerfoot in rush hour is a breeze now. 

Sales center said expect a few hundred more to be delivered in the next few weeks.

----------


## Xtrema

> https://electrek.co/2018/09/20/tesla...-rating-nhtsa/
> 
> Model 3 gets 5 star safety rating in every category. 
> 
> I've had my Model 3 for a week now and its excellent, I was one of the first in the city to get AWD. Autopilot has been amazing, especially TACC, driving down deerfoot in rush hour is a breeze now. 
> 
> Sales center said expect a few hundred more to be delivered in the next few weeks.



Should update your ride in your profile.

Congrats. I start to see a lot of Model 3 in the Mission area. So I don't doubt there has been deliveries in Calgary. I have the say that I still prefer the presence of Model S with the low wide look. But then again Model 3 is supposed to be $35K, so it looks good for what it is.

I don't know if it's the tire choices or what, they are louder than what I expect them to be when they rolled by.

----------


## rage2

> https://electrek.co/2018/09/20/tesla...-rating-nhtsa/
> 
> Model 3 gets 5 star safety rating in every category. 
> 
> I've had my Model 3 for a week now and its excellent, I was one of the first in the city to get AWD. Autopilot has been amazing, especially TACC, driving down deerfoot in rush hour is a breeze now. 
> 
> Sales center said expect a few hundred more to be delivered in the next few weeks.



Did you get the AWD or Performance? And pics!

In the quick 5 minutes with Model 3 Autopilot, compared to my Mercedes Intelligent Drive setup, the Model 3 tracked lanes slightly better, and can track construction areas with the dots as painted lines while Mercedes just aborts and quits. Pretty spiffy. That’s the gen2 Mercedes setup, will have to recompare when I get my hands on Gen3. You’re right, rush hour is a breeze these days, don’t dread it at all. Let the car do all the boring work, and only drive when it’s fun. 

Congrats on your car!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> I saw Tesla went ever 300$ today, was a nice ride for anybody who jumped in at 260!



Not regretting not going in. Still way too volatile right now IMO. I'm still wary of going in again for this quarter end.

----------


## supe

:thumbs up:

----------


## ExtraSlow

Looks great Supe, I hope it treats you well.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Jlude

> 



Wish I would have gotten silver, in hindsight. My black MS arrives on Monday.

----------


## jacky4566

> It is pretty sweet you don't have to do oil changes or other inspection services. What is the actual maintenance schedule like for a model 3 though?



Not even brakes! Electric regen takes most of the energy so the physical brakes only act under extreme braking. Most Prius i've seen still have the original brakes 200+km later. Tires are the biggest expense.

----------


## Jlude

Got my Model S tonight. Ordered this without test driving one, or having sat in one.  :crazy nut:

----------


## rage2

> Got my Model S tonight. Ordered this without test driving one, or having sat in one.



I dunno man, black IMO is way nicer than silver. Congrats on the car! Thanks again for the referral!

----------


## Jlude

Thanks for the free supercharging. I’m getting it wrapped, tinted and chrome deleted tomorrow, we’ll see how it looks after that. Silver is just such low maintenance.

----------


## supe

Congrats! I did the same, never drove a Tesla until I got mine which makes that first drive so much more special. It felt like the delivery people thought I was crazy.

----------


## killramos

> Got my Model S tonight. Ordered this without test driving one, or having sat in one.



Congrats, great colour.

New car day is always a good day.

----------


## Xtrema

> Thanks for the free supercharging. Im getting it wrapped, tinted and chrome deleted tomorrow, well see how it looks after that. Silver is just such low maintenance.



Congrats. 

Going for matte wrap?

MKBHD's P100D is sick.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...deleted_tesla/

----------


## blitz

> Congrats! I did the same, never drove a Tesla until I got mine which makes that first drive so much more special.



It's not your fucking wedding night.

----------


## Jlude

> Congrats. 
> 
> Going for matte wrap?
> 
> MKBHD's P100D is sick.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...deleted_tesla/



No it's just getting a clear xpel wrap to protect it. Chrome delete and tint.

----------


## rage2

Well it's official. SEC sues Elon Musk for fraud. Stock dives after hours.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...-by-sec-2018-9

----------


## ExtraSlow

Getting Elon out of that position would arguably be very good for that company.

----------


## Buster

Also not building your cars in tents.

And making sure the bumpers don't fall off.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Getting Elon out of that position would arguably be very good for that company.



It would likely give the company an honest chance at success.

----------


## googe

I think they have the best chance of success with Elon. At least until they work like a normal business.

There are some people who just find a way, no matter what. They are able to convince the right people to do the right things to get them where they need to be. No matter how big of a bind or what corner they get backed into, even if it’s entirely their own fault, they pull something out of their ass and they find a way. What they lack in technical skill or domain knowledge they make up for with sheer determination and focus. I think Elon is one of those people. His insecurities and his ego might even be his biggest asset. It’s amazing what you’re capable of when you have something to prove and your ego is fragile.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ercchry

During his interview with Joe he basically said he isn’t a businessman, and that he is just a nerd... err... engineer

----------


## finboy

> During his interview with Joe he basically said he isnt a businessman, and that he is just a nerd... err... engineer



...business magnet

----------


## bjstare

Funny he rejected the offer to settle for fine and future barring from CEO roles. This will be interesting.

----------


## Xtrema

> Funny he rejected the offer to settle for fine and future barring from CEO roles. This will be interesting.



Well, what SEC proposed potentially remove him from Tesla anyway but it would have been a much softer transition.

----------


## rage2

> Funny he rejected the offer to settle for fine and future barring from CEO roles. This will be interesting.






> Well, what SEC proposed potentially remove him from Tesla anyway but it would have been a much softer transition.

----------


## Jlude

LOL first thing I thought of was that scene from Wolf of Wall Street. 

The SEC can fuck off, they're a bunch of incompetent/corrupt hacks. Bernie Madoff ring a bell? Many others that they were warned about or were right under their noses and they didn't do shit. They'll fuck this up somehow, even though this is a pretty solid case for them.

----------


## Gestalt

> LOL first thing I thought of was that scene from Wolf of Wall Street. 
> 
> The SEC can fuck off, they're a bunch of incompetent/corrupt hacks. Bernie Madoff ring a bell? Many others that they were warned about or were right under their noses and they didn't do shit. They'll fuck this up somehow, even though this is a pretty solid case for them.



No one expected the dirties industry to go down with out a fight and the head of sec is an oil puppet. This is a battle for humanities future. When the dust settles well double up on Tesla. This will be the biggest stock in the world if it can keeo overcoming the multi triliin dirty businesses attempts to kill them.

----------


## revelations

> Well it's official. SEC sues Elon Musk for fraud. Stock dives after hours.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...-by-sec-2018-9



I dont know much about SEC except that in 2008, they did very little to help and are probably considered useless for huge corporations. 

I think they were forced to act in this case simply because it was high profile. Mr. Musk will probably just agree to pay the fine.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> No one expected the dirties industry to go down with out a fight and the head of sec is an oil puppet. This is a battle for humanities future. When the dust settles well double up on Tesla. This will be the biggest stock in the world if it can keeo overcoming the multi triliin dirty businesses attempts to kill them.



 :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## benyl

> No one expected the dirties industry to go down with out a fight and the head of sec is an oil puppet. This is a battle for humanities future. When the dust settles well double up on Tesla. This will be the biggest stock in the world if it can keeo overcoming the multi triliin dirty businesses attempts to kill them.



Nothing is real anymore. Musk didn't break the law at all. He is just a victim of the oil lobby. They must have taken over his twitter account and posted those falsehoods.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ExtraSlow

Twitter is a tool of the lizard overlords and Elon is a Saint for fighting them where they are strongest.

----------


## rage2

> No one expected the dirties industry to go down with out a fight and the head of sec is an oil puppet. This is a battle for humanities future. When the dust settles well double up on Tesla. This will be the biggest stock in the world if it can keeo overcoming the multi triliin dirty businesses attempts to kill them.



The hilarious part of all this is that if Elon was actually telling the truth, he has to prove that he’s going private by selling to the dirties industry, which would make Elon the oil puppet.

----------


## Gman.45

> The Securities and Exchange Commission has settled securities fraud charges with Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who will remain at the head of the company, while stepping down as chairman of the electric-car maker, according to a news release from the SEC.
> 
> Within 45 days, an independent chairman will replace Musk, who will be ineligible for reelection for the next three years. Tesla will also be required to appoint two new independent directors to its board, in addition to putting into place controls to oversee Musk’s communication. The settlement is still subject to court approval.
> 
> Musk and Tesla will also be required to pay $20 million in penalties each.







> Short sellers are up $1.27 billion on the day, according to data from S3 Analytics, a financial technology and analytics firm. The shorts are up $643 million for the year, after being in negative territory before the lawsuit was announced.



Finally. Our Tesla short investment with Vilas Cap (as per previous posts here) should do better next week too. This summer was already a pretty positive result (again, finally), but this next week should really perform, and hopefully get into some positive territory for the year.

https://www.valuewalk.com/2018/08/vilas-fund-2/

https://www.valuewalk.com/2018/04/vi...rt-tesla-tsla/

----------


## Twin_Cam_Turbo

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...-chairman.html

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Sounds like the funding secured tweet was totally legit, derp

----------


## rage2

It's like Friday didn't happen haha.

----------


## kJUMP

up 17% since market open... that is just insane.

----------


## Gestalt

Epic Muskism  :ROFL!:   :thumbs up: 

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1046676717350268928

----------


## rage2

> up 17% since market open... that is just insane.



Considering it was down about the same amount on Friday. What a rollercoaster haha.

----------


## Xtrema

So who get to pick the 2 new board members? Can Elon just send to more friends in there and nothing really changes?

----------


## Gestalt

> So who get to pick the 2 new board members? Can Elon just send to more friends in there and nothing really changes?



Supposed to be independent but I'm sure theu will share musks revolutionary image that will make it explipse amazon and apple

Musk needs to be the boss. Make no mistake anyone else would have fallen victim to the oil industry long ago

----------


## Gestalt

CNBC says Tesla to $4000 yes 4 thousand.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/10/0...pert-says.html

Edit. Barron capital just said Tesla will be Trillion $ in revenue. company. (5 times more then appl and amazon today)

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/majo...eted-less.html

----------


## rage2

> If we look back at Q1, Tesla’s last week burst rate surpassed 2000/week. Q2 they built the tent (20% production out of there), ripped out a bunch of robots, and replaced with workers to get to 5000/week burst rate. This worked out to a 2500/week average for Q2. There’s question marks about that 5000 (rumors 1000 of those were already on the line for minor rework) but I’ll ignore that for now since it’s just a random leak. They also cut costs by getting rid of 9% of the workforce, mostly in the solarcity side. If Tesla wants to nail Q3 with a profit, they simply stop spending on additional capacity, push the 3 lines as hard as possible, end up with a 3500-4000/week Q3 average, deliver as much as they can including the 11k shifted to q3, and profit. They’re not going to sustain 5000/week IMO as 24x7x365 is unrealistic, but guaranteed they’ll focus on that in the earnings call to boost the stock price. 
> 
> Long story short, should be some decent money making for traders in the next quarter. I’m still not sold long term with demand and actual gross margins completely unknown since they’re burying a large chunk of COGS in SG&A.



I made this prediction on July 4th a month prior to the Q2 earnings call. Pretty damn close. Q3 ended up at 4070 average based on leaks, deliveries exceeded production as they shifted the 11k cars to Q3. Nowhere near 5000/week for the Model 3. Expecting them to profit slightly, but nothing to indicate they can drive growth on their own at the rate they're going. They need to raise cash to grow, period. More importantly, they need to raise cash to pay off earlier cash raises, which is a huge problem.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Whatever Mr. Wall Street.

----------


## Buster

> they need to raise cash to pay off earlier cash raises, which is a huge problem.



I think there is a word for that.

----------


## kenny

> I think there is a word for that.



Disrupt.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> I think there is a word for that.



Revolutionary

----------


## taemo

> I think there is a word for that.



$3000 stock

----------


## Gestalt

> $3000 stock



Or more. If Musk survives crooks and liars trying to clip his wings there's seemingly no limit to what he can accomplish

----------


## rage2

I hope Gestalt actually listened to that $4000 valuation analysis and understands what that $4000 valuation is based on and what needs to be done to get there.

I too can spew $150 targets and sell recommendations that have little basis in reality all day long too haha.

----------


## CompletelyNumb

I'll need a chart to go with both of these predictions, thx.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Here you go, it's a classic channel system, as can be clearly shown by my quantitative analysis. Gestalt is correct, it can't break this pattern, at least not for long.

----------


## suntan

Y-axis better be logarithmic.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Y-axis better be logarithmic.



Axis labels are a tool of the dirry oill undustree

----------


## HiTempguy1

What is the base price of a model 3 in Canada?

Site says $45k, is that actually possible? Will there be a cheaper one?

For the forseeable future, I'll be doing 180km of commuting. I can charge at work all day, for free (and since I'm not at our main facility, it will likely be like that forever as we get away with anything goes).

Not having to pay for fuel would save me $4k per year in fuel costs (48k kms per year). Model 3 at $45k would be $600/month.

So I would increase my monthly costs by about $200, but I'd also have a new car out of the deal.

Thoughts? I'm just spitballing. I hate electric cars purely because I love the ICE, but seems to me I'd be getting into a modern car for $200/month.

----------


## suntan

VW E-Golf is $36K. That one I might have to seriously consider. 210KM range.

----------


## Xtrema

> What is the base price of a model 3 in Canada?
> 
> Site says $45k, is that actually possible? Will there be a cheaper one?
> 
> For the forseeable future, I'll be doing 180km of commuting. I can charge at work all day, for free (and since I'm not at our main facility, it will likely be like that forever as we get away with anything goes).
> 
> Not having to pay for fuel would save me $4k per year in fuel costs (48k kms per year). Model 3 at $45k would be $600/month.
> 
> So I would increase my monthly costs by about $200, but I'd also have a new car out of the deal.
> ...



Unless your work has Level 2 charging, you will not get that kind of range to go home. You will only get 3km per hr on 110v. 8hr on that only yield 24km of range.

A 7kw Level 2 will give you 5x that. So you can easily get 100km for 8hr of charging.

A cheap eGolf has too little range for your use case. eGolf may work for someone with 40-50km round trip daily commute.

The only other variable is heating if the charger is outside. Battery will have to be kept warm so there will be energy lost as well if you parked outside and it's -10c or colder.

And a $45K CAD Model 3 is still a pipe dream at this point. We will be lucky to see it in 2019.

More near term is a 500km rated eNiro from Kia. That should be around $50K CAD. As long as you have level 2 charger at home and at work, that may work for you. You have to remember that EV range drops 40% in winter. So a 500km one only yields 300km in winter.

----------


## suntan

Apparently newer models have much better cold range. I'm never sure though as e-car owners lie all the time about range and charge rate.

----------


## Xtrema

> Apparently newer models have much better cold range. I'm never sure though as e-car owners lie all the time about range and charge rate.



40% is worst case, YMMV. EV with heat pump to cycle coolant from battery/drive unit will also be more efficient (all Tesla has this but not sure if they applied to all EV). If you park your car inside and out of the elements, it'll probably retain more range.

End of the day, the less energy an EV need to spend to save itself, the more range you will get.

----------


## Gestalt

> I hope Gestalt actually listened to that $4000 valuation analysis and understands what that $4000 valuation is based on and what needs to be done to get there.
> 
> I too can spew $150 targets and sell recommendations that have little basis in reality all day long too haha.



Hater's do the latter here constsnly while pretending to have given adequate thought.

Tesla will be the biggest company of our time if it survives the relentless attacks from dirty money. Period. It doesn't matter if it matches non visionary ideology of "what needs to happen". You guys are in 1980 arguing why there is no market for computers or cell phones

----------


## Gestalt

> Unless your work has Level 2 charging, you will not get that kind of range to go home. You will only get 3km per hr on 110v. 8hr on that only yield 24km of range.
> .



WRONG. Depends on your charger and outlet First, on current limited 110v outlets you will get 5 km/hr. At work I get about 6.5 to 7km per hour on a standard 15 amp 110v circuit.

----------


## Jlude

> WRONG. Depends on your charger and outlet First, on current limited 110v outlets you will get 5 km/hr. At work I get about 6.5 to 7km per hour on a standard 15 amp 110v circuit.



I get 6km/hr charge on 110v 15amp outlet, 40km/hr charge on 240v.

----------


## rage2

> What is the base price of a model 3 in Canada?
> 
> Site says $45k, is that actually possible? Will there be a cheaper one?
> 
> For the forseeable future, I'll be doing 180km of commuting. I can charge at work all day, for free (and since I'm not at our main facility, it will likely be like that forever as we get away with anything goes).
> 
> Not having to pay for fuel would save me $4k per year in fuel costs (48k kms per year). Model 3 at $45k would be $600/month.
> 
> So I would increase my monthly costs by about $200, but I'd also have a new car out of the deal.
> ...



The cheapest Tesla you can get today is $69k after taxes. No leases, just finance, Tesla has it at $753/month with $5,000 down, 96 months, 4.6% APR.

That's a base RWD car.

----------


## Xtrema

> WRONG. Depends on your charger and outlet First, on current limited 110v outlets you will get 5 km/hr. At work I get about 6.5 to 7km per hour on a standard 15 amp 110v circuit.



Even if you can get best kw with dedicated breaker for your car, that's still 7km per hour, or 56km for 8hr. Hitemp needs about 90km each way. So while his work will pay for some of the range, it will not recoup all of it that he used to get there.

BTW, you should go to ACAD and pull a Kayne.
https://jalopnik.com/kanye-west-jump...-ab-1829489198

----------


## suntan

> Even if you can get best kw with dedicated breaker for your car, that's still 7km per hour, or 56km for 8hr. Hitemp needs about 90km each way. So while his work will pay for some of the range, it will not recoup all of it that he used to get there.






> Apparently newer models have much better cold range. I'm never sure though as e-car owners lie all the time about range and charge rate.



Just sayin.

The dipshit also claims to install solar panels. He couldn't plug in a lamp without hurting himself.

----------


## Gestalt

> Just sayin.
> 
> The dipshit also claims to install solar panels. He couldn't plug in a lamp without hurting himself.



He claimed range per hour was half of what actual Tesla owners get, and I'm the dipshit lol

----------


## Xtrema

> He claimed range per hour was half of what actual Tesla owners get, and I'm the dipshit lol



I am only wrong by units, km vs miles.

Also 110v outlets are unpredictable depends on age. There could be 10A breaker behind it, especially older homes with older wiring that prevents your from charging at full speed.

----------


## Maxt

> I am only wrong by units, km vs miles.
> 
> Also 110v outlets are unpredictable depends on age. There could be 10A breaker behind it, especially older homes with older wiring that prevents your from charging at full speed.



 I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 10 amp outlet these days, but also you don't get 15 out of a 15, you get 80% which is 12. Does the charger have a setting for its source? It's not going to know what breaker is in the panel unless it's told.

----------


## Xtrema

> I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 10 amp outlet these days, but also you don't get 15 out of a 15, you get 80% which is 12. Does the charger have a setting for its source? It's not going to know what breaker is in the panel unless it's told.



You can in a Leaf for 8A or 12A. 

EDIT: Tesla can as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...charging_from/

----------


## suntan

No, no, the trillion dollar electricity companies make it so you can't plug in two Teslas into an outlet at the same time.

----------


## rage2

> No, no, the trillion dollar electricity companies make it so you can't plug in two Teslas into an outlet at the same time.



Funny about this joke, I just learnt about this. For the Tesla owners in the thread, when you hit up a supercharger, don't charge beside someone. The superchargers are setup so that 2 chargers share a circuit, and if you're parked right beside someone, you'll be on a slower charge rate.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> No, no, the trillion dollar electricity companies make it so you can't plug in two Teslas into an outlet at the same time.






> Funny about this joke, I just learnt about this. For the Tesla owners in the thread, when you hit up a supercharger, don't charge beside someone. The superchargers are setup so that 2 chargers share a circuit, and if you're parked right beside someone, you'll be on a slower charge rate.



So, after reading the responses to this thread, this was something I had thought about. Home breaker panels are 100-150amps typically. So my exact thinking was "why can't I just have two dedicated breakers to separate outlets next to each other?" (I also have a garage, which again, this would be very simple to do).

As far as I can tell, whatever control system is in place for the 110v/120v charging system will not ramp up to a theoretical 30amps... which is very disappointing. This would also help at work, as with layoffs, there are many outlets normally used for block heaters available.

I also could easily install more (already have some) 240v outlets at home. But that doesn't solve the problem of using power from work.

Overall, I think the idea is a dud, especially considering I'd NEVER spend $70k on a Model 3. Was more just an idea.

----------


## suntan

> Funny about this joke, I just learnt about this. For the Tesla owners in the thread, when you hit up a supercharger, don't charge beside someone. The superchargers are setup so that 2 chargers share a circuit, and if you're parked right beside someone, you'll be on a slower charge rate.



Like I've said before, people don't understand electricity, electricity is really simple, and laying down miles of copper is really, really, expensive.

----------


## Xtrema

> Funny about this joke, I just learnt about this. For the Tesla owners in the thread, when you hit up a supercharger, don't charge beside someone. The superchargers are setup so that 2 chargers share a circuit, and if you're parked right beside someone, you'll be on a slower charge rate.



That's always the case. But some Superchargers are so busy, you really don't have a choice. Usually doesn't matter as you will just load up on food from surrounding cafe/restaurant to pass time anyway. So what's the difference between 30min or 1hr.




> So, after reading the responses to this thread, this was something I had thought about. Home breaker panels are 100-150amps typically. So my exact thinking was "why can't I just have two dedicated breakers to separate outlets next to each other?" (I also have a garage, which again, this would be very simple to do).
> 
> As far as I can tell, whatever control system is in place for the 110v/120v charging system will not ramp up to a theoretical 30amps... which is very disappointing. This would also help at work, as with layoffs, there are many outlets normally used for block heaters available.
> 
> I also could easily install more (already have some) 240v outlets at home. But that doesn't solve the problem of using power from work.
> 
> Overall, I think the idea is a dud, especially considering I'd NEVER spend $70k on a Model 3. Was more just an idea.




Well, a 240V 30A (Dryer outlet) will charge faster and more efficient (80-90% vs ~60% of 110V 12A).

Having that at home will mean you will charge to 80% (60kwh of a LR 75Kwh Model 3) at home , use 90km (22kwh) to go to work. Get 8-9kwh back at work at 110v 12A. Then top up 11-13kwh at home when parked at night. So worst case, you will have 30+kwh in the "tank", plenty of range left. Out of 44kwh you used daily, your work places is subsidizing 25% of it. Heck, you can even cut it with a SR $35K USD Model 3 if all you use it for is work.

For a daily driver, you will never see another gas station visit. 

Good thing about EV is that once you know it will cover your normal usage, it's quite trouble free. It's the out of normal travel that incur some mental gymnastic on when, where to charge to not be stranded.

----------


## Gestalt

#4 best selling car in north America!!!!!

There are 20amp 120v outlets but you get lower amp draw going multi phase (smaller wire).

The boss and I both have junction boxes we built that combines 2 opposite phase 120 to a single 240.

Ideally wee follow California so all new construction must have solar then we upgrade our grid and transition 100% to solar and wind.

Had we invested the $250 billion hand outs to dirty oil into alternative instead we would already be there and have a stronger economic.

I don't know how much residential can have access to 3 phase that would be ideal.

----------


## bjstare

100% solar and wind in our geographical area  :ROFL!:

----------


## Maxt

> #4 best selling car in north America!!!!l.



 How about in vehicle ranking, because passenger car sales are in the tank across the board?

----------


## Gestalt

> 100% solar and wind in our geographical area



Easily

----------


## Gestalt

> How about in vehicle ranking, because passenger car sales are in the tank across the board?



Hefty gas guzzlers tax will easily fix all that

----------


## ExtraSlow

> 100% solar and wind in our geographical area






> Easily



 we should aim for 128% solar and wind guys, let's go for it!

----------


## Gestalt

> we should aim for 128% solar and wind guys, let's go for it!



We would aim for 200% and sell reserves

----------


## Maxt

> Hefty gas guzzlers tax will easily fix all that



 Probably wouldn't considering light trucks trounce car sales.

----------


## mazdavirgin

> There are 20amp 120v outlets but you get lower amp draw going multi phase (smaller wire).
> 
> The boss and I both have junction boxes we built that combines 2 opposite phase 120 to a single 240.



1). Current draw has nothing to do with wire gauge and if it did then we wouldn't need circuit breakers. Second there's nothing multi phased in a residential power system. The two legs are in the same phase they are offset 180 degrees.

2). Why the blazes would you do that when you can just pull 240 from the panel.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> 1). 
> 2). Why the blazes would you do that when you can just pull 240 from the panel.



Because they didn't, he's full of shit like usual lol

----------


## rage2

Can you average down if you've already gone all in? Rollercoaster is getting more intense by the day here.

----------


## suntan

> 1). Current draw has nothing to do with wire gauge and if it did then we wouldn't need circuit breakers. Second there's nothing multi phased in a residential power system. The two legs are in the same phase they are offset 180 degrees.
> 
> 2). Why the blazes would you do that when you can just pull 240 from the panel.



Wire gauge and current draw... Oh man, once again he's proven that he's full of shit.  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> Can you average down if you've already gone all in? Rollercoaster is getting more intense by the day here.






> "Like Lehman, we think the deception is about to catch up to TSLA," Einhorn said in an investor letter Friday.



What other trick is up Elon's sleeve?

Alright, now I got caught up on Elon news and the latest drop to $260.

https://jalopnik.com/the-sec-deserve...m.w4qeyprq44lp




> Musk played them. And now both sides have to explain to a judge by Oct. 11 why this settlement merits approval, in the face of Musk openly mocking it. Can’t wait to see what they say.



I think Musk really want SEC to remove him and kill Tesla so it won't die a natural death by March. Then he and his cult can claim all the conspiracy theory they want.

----------


## Gestalt

> 1). Current draw has nothing to do with wire gauge and if it did then we wouldn't need circuit breakers. Second there's nothing multi phased in a residential power system. The two legs are in the same phase they are offset 180 degrees.
> 
> 2). Why the blazes would you do that when you can just pull 240 from the panel.



Parking lots and other places 220 is not available. Like when my wife takes it to work.

as for your other brain farts, t its differnent then european true single phase 220 it has a 220 line hot and a neutral. ours is two 120degree phases. 

third, ok, well you put 50 amps through a 20 gauge wire. see how that goes. the reason wire size goes down with true multiphase. if you arent an electrily mided guy its too hard to explain, but if you needed a 20kw worth of power, you would need roughly 85amps at 230 "single" phase, and 50amps 3 phase and of course smaller wire.

- - - Updated - - -




> Can you average down if you've already gone all in? Rollercoaster is getting more intense by the day here.



definatley. i really wanted to double down once it setled after the BS SEC manipulation, but it jumped up too fast. well see what next week does, hoping for a bit more dip, and well let it ride.

----------


## rage2

> definatley. i really wanted to double down once it setled after the BS SEC manipulation, but it jumped up too fast. well see what next week does, hoping for a bit more dip, and well let it ride.



So what you're telling me is weren't all in.

----------


## Gestalt

> So what you're telling me is weren't all in.



mommy is helping this time  :Wink:

----------


## Perfect Dark

> Parking lots and other places 220 is not available. Like when my wife takes it to work.
> 
> as for your other brain farts, t its differnent then european true single phase 220 it has a 220 line hot and a neutral. ours is two 120degree phases. 
> 
> third, ok, well you put 50 amps through a 20 gauge wire. see how that goes. the reason wire size goes down with true multiphase. if you arent an electrily mided guy its too hard to explain, but if you needed a 20kw worth of power, you would need roughly 85amps at 230 "single" phase, and 50amps 3 phase and of course smaller wire.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -



You can't be serious, you just can't.

----------


## Gestalt

> You can't be serious, you just can't.



quoted for future laughs

----------


## revelations

> You can't be serious, you just can't.



There is a reason why the ignore function is here - and another reason also why a global shadow ban for this user is not enacted by the mods (even though it has been requested, and is supported by this version of VB)

----------


## Gestalt

> There is a reason why the ignore function is here - and another reason also why a global shadow ban for this user is not enacted by the mods (even though it has been requested, and is supported by this version of VB)



So neither of you numb nuts knows what powers.your hpuse.?

You seriously dispute our house 230 is 2 out phase 120, and Euro is just single?

You don't understand how 3 phases draws less current per wire at same power then single?

Sad crew here.

- - - Updated - - -




> So neither of you numb nuts knows what powers.your hpuse.?
> 
> You seriously dispute our house 230 is 2 out phase 120, and Euro is just single?
> 
> You don't understand how 3 phases draws less current per wire at same power then single?
> 
> Sad crew here.



frigin 20 second google for canada multi phase tesla brought this. Try this, it should be simple enough even for you fellas.  :facepalm: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quABfe4Ev3s

----------


## ExtraSlow

Holy shit did you just quote your post inside that same post? You are some next level skill bro.

----------


## Gestalt

> Holy shit did you just quote your post inside that same post? You are some next level skill bro.



i dont know what happend it combined the posts. pretty cool though. everyone pretends to e an engineeer here, and no one knwos anything. wish I could find the old posts whre the other silly guy told me my solar wouln not work and then ran off for good after i proved him wrong.

----------


## Perfect Dark

Your "hpuse" is not fed with 3 phase power. 

I am not going to put any effort into trying to convince you otherwise as you are so full of self delusion that it is much easier just to watch you babble on and enjoy the show.

Continue.

----------


## Gestalt

> Your "hpuse" is not fed with 3 phase power. 
> 
> I am not going to put any effort into trying to convince you otherwise as you are so full of self delusion that it is much easier just to watch you babble on and enjoy the show.
> 
> Continue.



reading disability or comprension stunted?




> So neither of you numb nuts knows what powers.your hpuse.?
> 
> You seriously dispute our house 230 is 2 out phase 120, and Euro is just single?

----------


## Maxt

> Parking lots and other places 220 is not available. Like when my wife takes it to work.
> 
> as for your other brain farts, t its differnent then european true single phase 220 it has a 220 line hot and a neutral. ours is two 120degree phases. 
> 
> third, ok, well you put 50 amps through a 20 gauge wire. see how that goes. the reason wire size goes down with true multiphase. if you arent an electrily mided guy its too hard to explain, but if you needed a 20kw worth of power, you would need roughly 85amps at 230 "single" phase, and 50amps 3 phase and of course smaller wire.



 No, it depends what area you are in, most residential is split phase so that only one high voltage hot has to be run, instead of 3, which gives you the 240 180 apart. I think in Calgary some residential with commercial development does use 3 phase broken up for residential. A friend of mine lived in the northeast near a strip mall, we checked the lines between 3 adjacent houses , and it looked like the were fed as phase AB BC CA as I recall, but that was 25 years ago, it might be different now. 


That's a reading from the service at my house, showing it's 180.

----------


## suntan

I don't think he knows what that thing is in the picture.

----------


## Maxt

> I don't think he knows what that thing is in the picture.



 The other problems with charging from parking lots in this manner with that "setup" is that most of the buildings I work at have the parking lot plugs on alternation timers for 1-2 hour intervals so if you were hooked up for 120, over an 8 hour period, you'd get 4 hours of charge, if you wired for 240 with a cheater cord from 2 plugs, you'd actually get zero, unless you could find both phases on the same alternation period. The alternating time car plug isn't a new thing, I've seen it in schools built in the 60's, it just uses a time clock and a contactor.

----------


## Gestalt

> No, it depends what area you are in, most residential is split phase so that only one high voltage hot has to be run, instead of 3, which gives you the 240 180 apart. I think in Calgary some residential with commercial development does use 3 phase broken up for residential. A friend of mine lived in the northeast near a strip mall, we checked the lines between 3 adjacent houses , and it looked like the were fed as phase AB BC CA as I recall, but that was 25 years ago, it might be different now. 
> 
> 
> That's a reading from the service at my house, showing it's 180.



We electric owners know where the good plugs are  :Wink: 

You are right on Calgray bring divided. Some areas are 120 degrees apart some 180. My house is 120 because I only get 208 on the "220" like on the videos I linked for suntan and the "engineers" while one of our rentals where I've been renovation is 236 on average.

----------


## Gestalt

And I never said houses were 3 phase anywhere, but it's where we need to go. Easy with overhead

----------


## Maxt

> We electric owners know where the good plugs are 
> 
> You are right on Calgray bring divided. Some areas are 120 degrees apart some 180. My house is 120 because I only get 208 on the "220" like on the videos I linked for suntan and the "engineers" while one of our rentals where I've been renovation is 236 on average.



 But its not something you can always count on to have, just because there is a plug available.

----------


## ZenOps

So I always wondered, the big 4 prong NEMA plug that my clothes dryer plugs into - That's a two phase or split phase?

----------


## dirtsniffer

> A transformer supplying a three-wire distribution system has a single-phase input (primary) winding. The output (secondary) winding is center-tapped and the center tap connected to a grounded neutral. As shown in Fig. 1. either end to center has half the voltage of end-to-end. Fig. 2 illustrates the phasor diagram of the output voltages for a split-phase transformer. Since the two phasors do not define a unique direction of rotation for a revolving magnetic field, a split single-phase is not a two-phase system.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spli...electric_power

----------


## Maxt

> And I never said houses were 3 phase anywhere, but it's where we need to go. Easy with overhead



 Not for residential uses where the bulk of the loads are 120, takes too much effort to balance the panels, more expensive infrastructure. I called for an estimate to get 3 phase to my old shop, and the 3 phase pole was only about 400 meters away, it was ludicrously expensive. I put the machine on a vfd instead.

----------


## Gestalt

> So I always wondered, the big 4 prong NEMA plug that my clothes dryer plugs into - That's a two phase or split phase?



They still call it single phase, but its two 120v legs in different phase as viewed on a scope for heater, a neutral for the 120 controls of the dryer and a ground.

----------


## speedog

Arguing with xxx is like wrestling with a pig in mud, after a while you begin to realize that xxx likes it.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## suntan

The more crap he posts the more he exposes what a fraud he is.

----------


## mazdavirgin

> I like a little XXX wrestling sometimes



Vin Diesel or Ice Cube?

----------


## ExtraSlow

Co-worker of my wife got her Tesla yesterday. As far as I know they do not have charging at work, so I suppose she charges each night at home. Her normal city driving is the perfect use case. I'm interested to hear her opinion when she's got a few weeks in it.

----------


## killramos

> Co-worker of my wife got her Tesla yesterday. As far as I know they do not have charging at work, so I suppose she charges each night at home. Her normal city driving is the perfect use case. I'm interested to hear her opinion when she's got a few weeks in it.



Kind of an odd consideration, but it's one I have been contemplating.

What is the relative percentage of people who actually park their car at home in a garage or designated parking stall at night? Somewhere you can rely on having somewhere to regularly charge.

For example, experiences I have had in cities in Europe, most people just leave their cars somewhere on the street in some vague general area near where they live. Nowhere to charge at all. VERY rare to actually have spot to plug in let alone a garage with a fast charger. I bet SF isn't really different to this.

Even here, I have lots of friends who have never had a garage in their life, renters etc. They are limited to running an extension cord to the street, 110V for sure if they are even allowed to do that (ie apartment with street parking etc.). Doubt you can run a fast charging cable out to your Tesla on the street even if you wanted to.

You won't necessarily have somewhere to plug in at work.

Not having a dedicated place to charge their their vehicles is a huge problem no?

I think it comes back to the whole concept that electric cars are a pipe dream for the privileged and wealthy who can afford these things  :dunno:

----------


## Buster

> Co-worker of my wife got her Tesla yesterday. As far as I know they do not have charging at work, so I suppose she charges each night at home. Her normal city driving is the perfect use case. I'm interested to hear her opinion when she's got a few weeks in it.



The perfect use case is a max range commute.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I'd say in this city a very large percentage of families have access to at least one parking location with at least 120v power. In fact, most families own more than one car too, so they can use the ither one for times when electric drawbacks become prohibitive. That may not be true worldwide, but probably covers a decent percentage of North American population. 

I honestly think electric cars make a ton of sense for many people.

----------


## Jlude

I currently only have a 110v plug near my condo parking, it's really all I need on a day to day basis.

----------


## killramos

Think of how much more strife this will cause for the "my neighbor parked in front of my house" debate  :ROFL!: 

I am not trying to be controversial sorry, just a musing of mine. I am thinking of my own case for my winter car, its never anywhere near a plugin. Half the time I'm parked across the street, i would have to hunt around at work for 110V.

Guess i would have to hang out at chinook more often lol.

I am trying to make buying a Taycan work in my head and thinking of weird scenarios is all.

----------


## ExtraSlow

But what about your wife's car? I'll. Bet she parks by power every night.

----------


## killramos

> But what about your wife's car? I'll. Bet she parks by power every night.



Haha actually she is currently pissed because C63 is parked in middle of garage until I get around to winterizing and she has had to scrape windows, but wasn't really my point since i consider myself lucky enough to have a garage. If i bought an electric car i would probably buy a fast charger too. When I think about it, most of my friends don't and all park on the street 100% of the time was my consideration. Also my family in Europe, completely normal to go for a 2 block walk to find the car.

I would actually quite like to get her an electric car since its my way of "trying" without dealing with the inconveniences  :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema

> Haha actually she is currently pissed because C63 is parked in middle of garage until I get around to winterizing and she has had to scrape windows, but wasn't really my point since i consider myself lucky enough to have a garage. If i bought an electric car i would probably buy a fast charger too. When I think about it, most of my friends don't and all park on the street 100% of the time was my consideration. Also my family in Europe, completely normal to go for a 2 block walk to find the car.
> 
> I would actually quite like to get her an electric car since its my way of "trying" without dealing with the inconveniences



For those scenarios you live and die by DC fast charging, no different than ICE relies on gas stations. So you are looking at spending 2hr per week at a DC fast charging stations if you do 400km per week.

Like Toyota said, who is still resisting EVs, they only want to invest in technology that applies to 100% use case. EVs are nowhere near that until there are more public chargers.

----------


## HiTempguy1

> I'd say in this city a very large percentage of families have access to at least one parking location with at least 120v power.



Hmm, don't know if I agree with that. Considering how many people in the 'burbs park in the driveway or on the street because their garages are full of crap, and how few parking spots there are with condos, I think its a lot less than you think. I've had people scream BLOODY MURDER at me for having an extension cord across the sidewalk when renting a house with no front driveway and plugging in my duramax.

There aren't outlets in the underground parking at my condo. I guess I could put one in place of the light in the underground storage behind my unit.

So basically, its only viable with outdoor new condo parking (which probably has power) or front attached garage houses in the burbs. That's a pretty small share of the housing market.

----------


## rage2

> Like Toyota said, who is still resisting EVs, they only want to invest in technology that applies to 100% use case. EVs are nowhere near that until there are more public chargers.



Toyota cares about profits more than anything, and they don't believe traditional batteries are the answer. That's why they're investing so much into testing HFC and solid state batteries. They won't release any of it until it makes financial sense without having to rely on government subsidies which can be pulled at any time.

----------


## Xtrema

> Hmm, don't know if I agree with that. Considering how many people in the 'burbs park in the driveway or on the street because their garages are full of crap, and how few parking spots there are with condos, I think its a lot less than you think. I've had people scream BLOODY MURDER at me for having an extension cord across the sidewalk when renting a house with no front driveway and plugging in my duramax.
> 
> There aren't outlets in the underground parking at my condo. I guess I could put one in place of the light in the underground storage behind my unit.
> 
> So basically, its only viable with outdoor new condo parking (which probably has power) or front attached garage houses in the burbs. That's a pretty small share of the housing market.



If there is 0 downside operating an EV, everyone would have been onboard by now.

----------


## blownz

> I currently only have a 110v plug near my condo parking, it's really all I need on a day to day basis.



Is that plug metered to your condo? Or are the parkade plugs all shared? I think I would be pissed if someone was charging their car for free if I lived in a condo... or I would definitely buy one too. lol

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Co-worker of my wife got her Tesla yesterday. As far as I know they do not have charging at work, so I suppose she charges each night at home. Her normal city driving is the perfect use case. I'm interested to hear her opinion when she's got a few weeks in it.



Turns out they do have 120v at work. Sleek looking unit.

----------


## Xtrema

> Is that plug metered to your condo? Or are the parkade plugs all shared? I think I would be pissed if someone was charging their car for free if I lived in a condo... or I would definitely buy one too. lol



If they provide block heater plugs, what's it to stop people using it as EV charger other than some by-law.

----------


## 88CRX

> If they provide block heater plugs, what's it to stop people using it as EV charger other than some by-law.



They are almost always installed with timers on them. 1 hour on, 1 hour off. To keep people from using them as free power for other things.

----------


## Xtrema

> They are almost always installed with timers on them. 1 hour on, 1 hour off. To keep people from using them as free power for other things.



Maxt already pointed that out. Still 4hr (8hrs on plug) @ 110v at 8A is still ~3.5kwh. Good enough for 10-20km.

----------


## Darell_n

> They are almost always installed with timers on them. 1 hour on, 1 hour off. To keep people from using them as free power for other things.



Or just stay off if the temperature is above -10°.

----------


## Jlude

> Is that plug metered to your condo? Or are the parkade plugs all shared? I think I would be pissed if someone was charging their car for free if I lived in a condo... or I would definitely buy one too. lol



Electricity is included in our condo fees, which I believe are already high enough ($1000+) and I'm currently fighting with the board about this. I don't think I should pay extra to charge my car, I think I use about $10/month in electricity. 




> If they provide block heater plugs, what's it to stop people using it as EV charger other than some by-law.



There are other things. I can leave my lights on 24 hours, but I can't plug in my car? I can leave my house for a month and leave my AC on high, plus all lights and whatever else, but I can't charge my car? I don't buy into that.

----------


## speedog

Not knocking Jlude because he appears to have a legitimate beef but I'd like to know where I can get free gasoline aside from siphoning it illegally - if EV owners figure they should be able to get free electricity then what of us ICE vehicle owners? I want a piece of that cake too.

----------


## C4S

Well, my car battery (12v) was dead in my Condo's underground parking, I plugged my 12V charger overnight ... got phone call from the Condo manager I was not supposed to do it ..... (I told him my battery was dead, couldn't start the car, so he let me do this once, but should just use booster pack next time .. ) I pay ~$400 condo fee, and I don't even live there .. so ...

----------


## killramos

> Not knocking Jlude because he appears to have a legitimate beef but I'd like to know where I can get free gasoline aside from siphoning it illegally - if EV owners figure they should be able to get free electricity then what of us ICE vehicle owners? I want a piece of that cake too.



Just siphon it out of your supers truck  :ROFL!: 

Follow it up with a “I pay your salary”

----------


## speedog

> Just siphon it out of your supers truck 
> 
> Follow it up with a “I pay your salary”



Don't have a super, am own boss.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> don't have a super, am own super.



 ftfy

----------


## adam c

> Don't have a super, am own boss.



siphon from wife

----------


## rage2

> Electricity is included in our condo fees, which I believe are already high enough ($1000+) and I'm currently fighting with the board about this. I don't think I should pay extra to charge my car, I think I use about $10/month in electricity. 
> 
> There are other things. I can leave my lights on 24 hours, but I can't plug in my car? I can leave my house for a month and leave my AC on high, plus all lights and whatever else, but I can't charge my car? I don't buy into that.



I doubt you use only $10. When I did my calculations, I drive 2500km/month. Depending on how hard you drive, that would be 500-700kwh of usage. At Calgary rates and riders, that works out to $70-$100/month. On that note, when comparing to ICE costs, that’s 250-300L of fuel for my E wagon depending how hard I drive, or $360-$430 in fuel costs. The gap closes up a bit in winter.

----------


## ganesh

It looks like Rupert Murdoch’s son is going to replace Elon,
https://bgr.com/2018/10/10/james-mur...-succeed-elon/

In other related topic what are your guys thoughts on NIO?

----------


## ExtraSlow

> I doubt you use only $10. When I did my calculations, I drive 2500km/month. Depending on how hard you drive, that would be 500-700kwh of usage. At Calgary rates and riders, that works out to $70-$100/month. On that note, when comparing to ICE costs, that’s 250-300L of fuel for my E wagon depending how hard I drive, or $360-$430 in fuel costs. The gap closes up a bit in winter.



That gap closes up a lot with a more fuel efficient vehicle. Like a Honda Fit for instance.

----------


## ercchry

> That gap closes up a lot with a more fuel efficient vehicle. Like a Honda Fit for instance.



Then you don’t have a full-size luxury car, and without that status why would you even bother “saving the planet” with an electric car?!?

----------


## JustinL

Didn't Sugarphreak buy into NIO a couple days after the IPO? It seems like an interesting company, but the stock price is a WILD ride. If they start making money and good cars, it could shoot up. I would say it's highly speculative as an investment right now.

----------


## rage2

> Didn't Sugarphreak buy into NIO a couple days after the IPO? It seems like an interesting company, but the stock price is a WILD ride. If they start making money and good cars, it could shoot up. I would say it's highly speculative as an investment right now.



I bought in on Monday. Worth a long gamble. Probably start a NIO thread at some point when it gets interesting haha.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Jlude

> I doubt you use only $10. When I did my calculations, I drive 2500km/month. Depending on how hard you drive, that would be 500-700kwh of usage. At Calgary rates and riders, that works out to $70-$100/month. On that note, when comparing to ICE costs, that’s 250-300L of fuel for my E wagon depending how hard I drive, or $360-$430 in fuel costs. The gap closes up a bit in winter.



Ya, so about that. You know how much I travel, and my office is 200 yards from my home. The S has 237klms on it and I doubt I’ll hit 300 before the end of the year, maybe 350 if I’m lucky. One of my vehicles is a 2014 and even with two cross country trips and one road trip to California, it still doesn’t have 40k on it. Realistically, I’m not even using $10 of electricity every month.

----------


## rage2

> Yeah I picked up some as sort of a long shot, I think it will be interesting to see how it does
> 
> I don't think it will be a power house in North America; however with the trade wars; China's insistence on penalizing the crap out of imported cars; and the shift towards cleaner cars by the Chinese government; I think it could develop into a major player in the Asian market. 
> 
> This article does a good job of going over the pro's and con's of it
> https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/...ds-out-in.aspx



What the article doesn't mention is that the valuation is actually pretty high already. I see NIO as a viable vehicle for investors to jump onto once TSLA runs into financial problems, which is why I went in on it, hoping for the next big rollercoaster ride. There's a lot positives that I've seen with NIO. They've been in Formula E so there's a lot of sound engineering effort behind their work. They're following the good parts of TSLA's strategy, entice with high performance, but sell decent performance vehicles to keep expenditures low. They're also doing a lot of what I wanted TSLA to do, such as not blowing all their cash on Capex, leverage 3rd party manufactures to get started with production. Their cash burn is reasonable at this rate. I think their market will be beyond China, most likely Europe. Only reason why they're invested heavily in Formula E competition and delivered a track car. 

On the cons side, it's a Chinese company, and probably a Chinese Hustle haha. But yea, putting any money on it at this stage is a pure gamble IMO. Give it 6 months to see what kind of meaningful production it can sustain, and maybe it'll be worth investing. Can't win big without some gambling though haha.




> Ya, so about that. You know how much I travel, and my office is 200 yards from my home. The S has 237klms on it and I doubt I’ll hit 300 before the end of the year, maybe 350 if I’m lucky. One of my vehicles is a 2014 and even with two cross country trips and one road trip to California, it still doesn’t have 40k on it. Realistically, I’m not even using $10 of electricity every month.



Fair enough.

----------


## dirtsniffer

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...arge-1.4862723

----------


## suntan

Same type of people that take office supplies from work and then complain when all the supplies get locked up.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## dirtsniffer

If electricity is included in condo fees I don't see why this wouldn't be included. If electricity isn't in the fees and this common parking area is one of the few locations that the board pays for they should just make it so that the power is only on 25% of the time.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Maxx Mazda

How do Teslas generate cabin heat for the winter? It must be electric, but that would use a lot of juice would it not?

----------


## dirtsniffer

> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere that the electricity was included in the condo fees... aside from maybe a basement suite
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but 1$ a day to charge your car seems pretty reasonable to me, I don't know why they are crying about it. It actually seems like the Condo board made an effort to meet them in the middle. If the condo board decided to charge them 150$ a month, then maybe they might have something to complain about. 
> 
> I hope my condo charges people more than 33$ for plugging in their car at our condo



ya, thinking about it I don't think I've ever had electricity included in condo fees. These people should get over it.

----------


## Darkane

She wasn’tbad looking.

----------


## suntan

How much to see her receptacles?

----------


## HiTempguy1

> They went to CBC over 33$ a month?






> If electricity is included in condo fees I don't see why this wouldn't be included. If electricity isn't in the fees and this common parking area is one of the few locations that the board pays for they should just make it so that the power is only on 25% of the time.



Usually with powered stalls in condos, the power is provided by the condo and not the owner, because that would be a cluster fuck to wire into the building of the condo.

I don't get it though, charging an electric car is the same as plugging in your cars block heater in the winter.  :dunno:  A typical block heater uses anywhere from 900W to 1200W, basically very similar power usage to what electric cars charge at on 120Vac.

So I can see why they are irritated, they are getting charged for something that everyone else gets for free.

Now the argument could be made that most people don't plug in their block heater every night 365 days a year, but there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

Edit-
As for Phreak, as I've pointed out again and again, you assholes on Beyond will spend DAYS trying to figure out how to save $150/year on insurance and bitch about it here on Beyond  :ROFL!:

----------


## Tik-Tok

This is the same as someone running an extension cord from the block heater outlets, to power something in their condo. "Free" electricity right? What a couple of idiots.

----------


## lasimmon

I don't know it doesn't seem like the couple are mad. Just mad the power got turned off.. Didn't say they had any issue paying the $33. 

Not really enough information to judge IMO.

----------


## Jlude

> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere that the electricity was included in the condo fees... aside from maybe a basement suite
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but 1$ a day to charge your car seems pretty reasonable to me, I don't know why they are crying about it. It actually seems like the Condo board made an effort to meet them in the middle. If the condo board decided to charge them 150$ a month, then maybe they might have something to complain about. 
> 
> I hope my condo charges people more than 33$ for plugging in their car at our condo



My fees include electricity, water and some other things. 




> How do Tesla’s generate cabin heat for the winter? It must be electric, but that would use a lot of juice would it not?



Yes, it moderates the cabin temperature when you're not there. My car has been sitting in my parking garage for 2 weeks and it hasn't used any power. I have it plugged in, but I would be notified if it started charging and when it stopped.




> ya, thinking about it I don't think I've ever had electricity included in condo fees. These people should get over it.



Mine does.

----------


## dirtsniffer

Sweet. Free charging then? I'm sure some units are mining bit coin lol. 

Wait is that how you got the Tesla?  :Wink:

----------


## suntan

Yes some older building electricity is included. Lived in a apartment here like that too.

----------


## Jlude

> Sweet. Free charging then? I'm sure some units are mining bit coin lol. 
> 
> Wait is that how you got the Tesla?



Good point. I'm going to argue that next, if electricity is included in the condo fee for in the unit, but not the garage, I'll load that bitch to the ceiling and move my stuff out.

----------


## rage2

Earnings call a week early, scheduled for tomorrow. Do or die time for Tesla. After this quarter of shifting deliveries, reducing capex spend, hoarding deposits, this is the best that they can do with the Model 3 in play. Tesla needs to show they can earn a profit, be cash positive, enough to cover the upcoming debt. Make your bets, it'll be a wild ride tomorrow!

My prediction, break even +/- $100m. Not enough to convince investors that they have a sound financial model. If it's on the negative side, the stock will get massacred. I'm completely out on Tesla for this quarter. Good luck anyone willing to gamble.

----------


## C4S

Just noticed lots of Model X around lately...

----------


## killramos

> Just noticed lots of Model X around lately... ������



Model X is the new X5 for “my husband works in oil and gas” soccer moms

----------


## C4S

> Model X is the new X5 for “my husband works in oil and gas” soccer moms



I guess so, noticed many model X at school when I picked up my kids, but strangely, all 100D, none "P100D"  :dunno:  :Confused:  :Confused:

----------


## benyl

> I guess so, noticed many model X at school when I picked up my kids, but strangely, all 100D, none "P100D"



Soccer moms only need D, not P.  :Wink:

----------


## rage2

> I guess so, noticed many model X at school when I picked up my kids, but strangely, all 100D, none "P100D"



Clearly your kids go to a baller school haha. 

In California, the school drop off scene is crazy. Lines of Model X gullwing doors open dropping kids off. Every mom has one down there.

----------


## Darell_n

> Clearly your kids go to a baller school haha. 
> 
> In California, the school drop off scene is crazy. Lines of Model X gullwing doors open dropping kids off. Every mom has one down there.



In Alberta, the Moms only need to worry about running over a kid with the dually rear wheels when they pull away in their diesel Denalis.

----------


## Maxt

It's funny how those cars completely disappear on my commute when the weather turns bad, sun comes out and they're back. Probably a lot of owners have a beater cayenne or something.

----------


## C4S

> Clearly your kids go to a baller school haha. 
> 
> In California, the school drop off scene is crazy. Lines of Model X gullwing doors open dropping kids off. Every mom has one down there.



In CA .. I can understand driving Tesla, but Calgary .. um ... even the "D" is $150K SUV ... not super faster nor good looking ... (It looks actually kind of ugly IMO) but I guess kids love them .. my 4 year old keep saying " Daddy, look at the doors! I want one .. I want one ...  :facepalm:

----------


## Darkane

312 million profit. I didn’t expect that.

----------


## Disoblige

Boom, after hour spike.

----------


## Jlude

> Clearly your kids go to a baller school haha. 
> 
> In California, the school drop off scene is crazy. Lines of Model X gullwing doors open dropping kids off. Every mom has one down there.



This is true. I live short distance from a Tesla SC and our parking garage has a large number of Teslas, most model S & 3, not many are X.

----------


## ercchry

> This is true. I live short distance from a Tesla SC and our parking garage has a large number of Teslas, most model S & 3, not many are X.



Saw a model 3 parked near my place... was facing the wrong way on the street. Looked about right

----------


## ExtraSlow

Those of you who enjoy reading the full quarterly reports and analyst commentaries, does Tesla look like it's on track for continued profitable quarters, or did they have one good quarter that's not likely to be repeated? 

Wife got a ride in her friend's Tesla. Really liked it. Until I told her how much it would have cost.

----------


## rage2

> Those of you who enjoy reading the full quarterly reports and analyst commentaries, does Tesla look like it's on track for continued profitable quarters, or did they have one good quarter that's not likely to be repeated? 
> 
> Wife got a ride in her friend's Tesla. Really liked it. Until I told her how much it would have cost.



Hard to say, have to really wait for the 10K next week. Realistically, this is their all-in quarter, so good on them for beating even the most aggressive estimates. This will go a long way in helping them raise capital for growth.

Looking at the base numbers of what's provided, they cut back on everything they can, meaning no new investments in growth (such as new production lines), cut R&D (for stuff like Model Y, Roadster, future products), didn't grow operations (hence all the service complaints) and of course cut staff (10% staffing cuts that's now showing up on balance sheet). I mean, they can move forward without growth and be profitable, but that's really not what the stock is priced for.

So to answer your question, do I think this quarter is repeatable? If they continue to stagnate growth, yes. There's a few positives for Tesla right now, it seems like their surprise strategy to offer a mid range model seems to be working out for them, it's pushing a few more 35k model holdouts towards spending $10k more, so it's another decent batch of higher margin demand. Next year is when they target certification in EU which opens up yet another market. Maybe they should just hold on for a year like this and build up the war chest a little. Stock will take a beating though if they take that path.

Tesla did everything possible to game this quarter into a big one, and they did a much better job than I expected. Solid 18% gain gamble if anyone took the plunge (I didn't).

As for buying the car, Model 3 is a fun car, and it's amazing to me that they have people spending 3x what their car budget has been all their lives and dealing with the nightmare that's their service right now, and still be OK with it. No other company, or CEO could've pulled that off. Credit where credit is due there.

----------


## supe

Well I have the Model 3 and I'm a long investor. Both are great. Seriously the Model 3 is so much fun to drive. 
Some of the best points:
-for now charging costs about ~1/3 that of gas, will go up in the winter, i'll check back
-drive train is unreal, its so fast but so smooth and the power is instant
-visibility out the front is amazing, you barely see the front of the car at all
-AutoPilot is a godsend, I mildly enjoy deerfoot during rush hour, I rush into the left lane and cruise all the way home, I like to call it the opposite of road rage, road zen
-brake hold, its a small thing, and I think other luxury cars have it but I love it

Tesla is finally converting the naysayers. Lots of short analysts are now changing their tune, Citron did a complete 180 and is now long Tesla (before the earnings release). I subscribe to seekingalpha for both entertainment but also its important to hear the short arguments, most don't hold water. Anyway here is a LONG time short seller now partially converted: https://seekingalpha.com/article/421...-going-forward

Heres the thing about this quarter, they were able to reduce man hours per model 3 by 30% and they think they can improve on that still, which means they can produce even more cars with the same operation, more revenue, more income more cashflow. 

Important to note that European sales will start early 2019 and RHD units later in the year so there is no shortage of customers. 

Important to note again, no advertising money spent which speaks to the point that they don't have a demand issue at a healthy 20%+ gm. 

The model y will largely be a carbon copy of the model 3. What I think they're going to do is move half the NA model 3 production to China and split the Y production between china and NA and whatever other factory comes next. Elon mentioned he is particularly excited about the Tesla pickup truck. Ford sells 900k trucks every year. Thats a HUGE market.

----------


## NRGie

> Just noticed lots of Model X around lately... ������



As of end of August there were approx 70 Model 3s in the Calgary area.

Edit. Correction. 60ish in AB and 30ish in calgary

----------


## C4S

Just saw two truck load of model 3 .. so, 11 or 12 more! 

AWD out yet?

----------


## rage2

> Just saw two truck load of model 3 .. so, 11 or 12 more! 
> 
> AWD out yet?



AWD has been here for a while now. Same as Performance version. I test drove the performance, supe owns a performance.

----------


## supe

> supe owns a performance.



No, mine is just the AWD version. 0-60 in ~4.5 sec, the performance is about a second quicker which is just crazy to think about.

----------


## rage2

> No, mine is just the AWD version. 0-60 in ~4.5 sec, the performance is about a second quicker which is just crazy to think about.



Ahh, thx for the clarification.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Nikola throwing shade at Tesla regarding its business model.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi...n-refunds/amp/

----------


## Gestalt

https://www.businessinsider.com/germ...-tesla-2018-11

That's some shade! Germanys economic chief asks BMW and Mercedes when theyll build a car half as sexy as one by Tesla

----------


## googe

Porsche NA CEO is a bit more complimentary than the armchair car company CEOs on the internet too.

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...130-story.html




> Zellmer: If you look at what Tesla has done, if you look at their volume and look at their price level, it’s truly astonishing.
> 
> If you can do that with one brand and a sales network that is not comprised of dealers and a real sales organization, it’s even more astonishing.



Elon won't be going anywhere.

----------


## supe

Well its a new year, stock is still a bit of a roller coaster but I'm still hyped. 

A little bit of a year in review but Tesla hits 3 of the years best car tech:

https://jalopnik.com/the-best-car-te...018-1831242908

----------


## cam_wmh

LAAAAYYYYOFFFFS

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/busin...usk/index.html

----------


## Xtrema

> LAAAAYYYYOFFFFS
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/busin...usk/index.html



Ran out of rebates and forced to cut prices.

On top it's still a very inefficient operation, see this:




How many man hours wasted on potentially simple process.

----------


## killramos

Honestly this is the first acknowledgement I have seen that they are actually serious about being a real company.

I take that as a positive.

----------


## rage2

Buy under 300 sell over 350. Rinse and repeat.

Edit - just to be clear I’ve stopped trading Tesla in the middle of Q3.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> For any normal company yes...
> 
> ... but this is Tesla
> 
> The only reason they layoff is because they suddenly realize there is a serious cashflow problem that will hit them in a few weeks
> 
> 
> They don't think about what they do, they just react... terrible company in that way



The lack of rebate and war with China probably hit him harder than expected. And isn't time for Q4 and 2018 numbers?

----------


## supe

> For any normal company yes...
> 
> ... but this is Tesla
> 
> The only reason they layoff is because they suddenly realize there is a serious cashflow problem that will hit them in a few weeks
> 
> 
> They don't think about what they do, they just react... terrible company in that way



Once again Sugar is 100% wrong, Tesla in the black for 2 quarters, one more and they get included in the S&P500, gee who knew...

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> Once again Sugar is 100% wrong, Tesla in the black for 2 quarters, one more and they get included in the S&P500, gee who knew...



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...y-end-of-2019/

Beside this article, basically what I gather from the last few weeks:

- Order has plateaued in Americas for Long Range Model 3 that it now build more Model 3 than committed units.
- Most of Jan's units are all prebuilt for Europe and China consumption. Tesla is hoping for demand of 5000/week per region.
- Model 3 SR is still costing $47K to build right now, a loss of $12K per unit if Elon allow that out the door now.
- No idea if trade war will impact Tesla's plan in China or if the Chinese will be receptive of any American brands right now.

I believe Q1 profit is predicted to be low if the anticipated European and Chinese consumption is proven correct, expect to be under $100M after firing 7% staff.

I think Elon need another huge capital injection and have the Chinese factory online before they can build Model 3 SR and not loses a bunch on the unit.

But really, I think Elon need China more than China need Elon. That market is going to be tough to crack when the Chinese has already stolen all of the Tesla's IP for fractions of what a Tesla will cost. And once Elon set up a factory in China, they will probably lose the remaining IPs.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-a-close-i...ale-1831966588

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...pc24vgjz6y.mp4

----------


## ExtraSlow

I hope Tesla pulls through and remains a strong viable company. They are forcing other companies to up thier game and without a doubt are raising the profile and desirability of electric cars.

----------


## supe

> They moved around some numbers and then fired a bunch of people, not because they were cleaning house, but just they can show a tiny profit... the hope is they can swindle people into investing more. It is literally a ponzi-scheme dude. 
> 
> if they don't generate enough hype and get the stock price up another 15% by* March 1st* this whole scheme of theirs is going to come apart when they can't replay debts that are coming due. The moves they make from a management perspective all reek of desperation. 
> 
> Here is an educated view about what is actually going on
> 
> *"Tesla posts small 4Q profit but misses Wall Street estimates"*
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/p...er-times-ahead




Do you even know how to read financials? Did you even read the article you posted?

"We have sufficient cash on hand to comfortably settle in cash our convertible bond that will mature in March 2019"

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> Yes.... I actually read it, not just ignored all the parts I disagreed with and then pretended it was painting Tesla in a good light
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how you must read, haha:



And you're ignoring the part where they have 3.7 B in cash. So explain to me how are they going out of business? Please model that out for me, repayments and all.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> Sure
> "In addition to fighting costs, $920 million in Tesla notes come due on March 1. Half the debt could be converted to stock, but the share price would have to rise more than 15 per cent for that to happen. So Tesla either has to pay in cash or refinance the notes."



Everyone just make sure you're sitting down. This is advanced Sugar logic incoming:

4.3 - 0.9 = bankrupcy

Thats like a formula that should have been written on a glass window. Thanks!

----------


## Xtrema

I wonder how Tesla will do in China if they are taxed 25% right now but comes off when Shanghai factory is building cars.

Would that delay Chinese buyers knowing it would.be 25% cheaper in a year? Or will Tesla keep the same price and pocket that 25%?

That would be huge profit for them.

----------


## rage2

Bankruptcy isn’t a problem based on the numbers. The problem is the future valuation of the company based on growth, and Tesla isn’t growing at all. They’ve slashed capex significantly in Q3 and Q4 to make the numbers to the point where they can’t drop it much anymore, which explains why they had to lay off 7% of the workforce to cut costs further for Q1. 

Coupled with the huge backlog of service issues in high sale regions such as California, they should be ramping up capex and not slashing. The service problems are so bad now that Model 3s are in the hands of middle class the Tesla faithful has begin to have negative sentiments of the company. 

Long story short, growth isn’t happening. Stock price will be pretty volatile, which is why I stopped playing last quarter.

----------


## supe

> Bankruptcy isnt a problem based on the numbers. The problem is the future valuation of the company based on growth, and Tesla isnt growing at all. Theyve slashed capex significantly in Q3 and Q4 to make the numbers to the point where they cant drop it much anymore, which explains why they had to lay off 7% of the workforce to cut costs further for Q1. 
> 
> Coupled with the huge backlog of service issues in high sale regions such as California, they should be ramping up capex and not slashing. The service problems are so bad now that Model 3s are in the hands of middle class the Tesla faithful has begin to have negative sentiments of the company. 
> 
> Long story short, growth isnt happening. Stock price will be pretty volatile, which is why I stopped playing last quarter.



In case you missed it, they are building a MASSIVE factory capable of building 500k cars in China, how is that not growth?? Its set to partially come online at the end of this year! The chinese do everything faster and cheaper. 

Did you know Tesla will be the first non chinese owned car factory in China? The chinese are thirsty for EV's and are basically begging Elon to build locally. There is a video of Elon literrally dancing on stage in China because he knows he's about to cash in HUGE.

And lastly sure they cut 7% but they grew 30 % in the last year, Tesla is growing massively and you're completely missing the boat.

----------


## supe

> I wonder how Tesla will do in China if they are taxed 25% right now but comes off when Shanghai factory is building cars.
> 
> Would that delay Chinese buyers knowing it would.be 25% cheaper in a year? Or will Tesla keep the same price and pocket that 25%?
> 
> That would be huge profit for them.



From the comments I've seen from Europe and in China, Tesla is now becoming that halo company, literally the Apple of cars, and people are willing to pay a premium for the brand and probably rightfully so, despite all the competition Tesla is still king at building EV's. To your other point about the chinese stealing IP, this is a real threat, but I think battery pack and motors will still be produced in North America for now with the Giga Shanghai just being an assembly line, so for now the threat is minimized. 

Secondly the product lineup for Tesla has never been better, they have the model Y, pickup truck, semi truck and roadster up and coming. Giga Shanghai is just building the 3 for now. Elon just said on the call that the Y will be built at Giga 1 in Nevada so the latest and greatest will still be kept safe for now.

----------


## Buster

Tesla has had basically zero competition.

----------


## killramos

At least Apple products were always made well lol.

Laying off massive amounts of staff, great signal for continual exponential growth. As for the lineup being better than ever, didn’t they drop all the affordable versions of the S and X?

I actually think only selling 200k versions of the S and X is smart, stop pretending to be the car of the people and rather a Halo brand selling prestige smug cars to the rich. Smart. Just need to shut down model 3 line and they might have a real business mode.

----------


## supe

> At least Apple products were always made well lol.
> 
> Laying off massive amounts of staff, great signal for continual exponential growth. As for the lineup being better than ever, didnt they drop all the affordable versions of the S and X?



They dropped it only to bring it back as a software unlock version, meaning they are shipping all versions the S & X with the full battery pack. My theory is they have unlocked some major improvements in battery design that has dropped their costs significantly that they can afford to do this. 




> Just need to shut down model 3 line and they might have a real business mode.



Simply wrong.

Model 3 GAAP and non-GAAP gross margin remained stable at >20% in Q4. Just wait until they open the Shanghai factory.

----------


## Buster

Moar tents!!!

----------


## killramos

> Moar tents!!!



They wouldn’t even use a tent as a factory in China or India  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

> In case you missed it, they are building a MASSIVE factory capable of building 500k cars in China, how is that not growth?? Its set to partially come online at the end of this year! The chinese do everything faster and cheaper. 
> 
> Did you know Tesla will be the first non chinese owned car factory in China? The chinese are thirsty for EV's and are basically begging Elon to build locally. There is a video of Elon literrally dancing on stage in China because he knows he's about to cash in HUGE.
> 
> And lastly sure they cut 7% but they grew 30 % in the last year, Tesla is growing massively and you're completely missing the boat.






> Model 3 GAAP and non-GAAP gross margin remained stable at >20% in Q4. Just wait until they open the Shanghai factory.



Again, you missed my point. They had to cut capex spending dramatically in Q3 and Q4 to make profits and increase their cash position. Q4 capex spend was at a measly $325m excluding China lease and they still posted worst profits compared to Q3. So to keep being profitable at the current rate you're seeing, they need to continue to minimize capex. If they kept spending at the same levels to achieve profitability, that works out to $1.3b a year of spend. For 2019, Tesla is targeting $2.5b of capex spend mostly because of China factory. Basically, you choose one or the other. Profit with little to no growth, or grow by losing money. You can't have both. The stock is priced for growth at the moment. There's also zero plans to quickly fix the support network, or grow the supercharger network quickly. They're basically just double shifting service centers and raising prices on charging to reduce demand.

It's all in the letter for you to read, but the real answers will come out when they file their 10Q.

----------


## suntan

Do not doubt rage2's analyses.

----------


## rage2

> Do not doubt rage2's analyses.



haha I've been wrong before. Not really an analysis, there's a lot of smarter people out there that does real analysis. My posts are just explanations of my trading decisions.

I do feel bad for Gestalt, he went all in at $385 after the $420 funding secure tweet.  :Shock:

----------


## ExtraSlow

> I do feel bad for Gestalt's mom, she went all in at $385 after the $420 funding secure tweet.



 ftfy

----------


## taemo

> haha I've been wrong before. Not really an analysis, there's a lot of smarter people out there that does real analysis. My posts are just explanations of my trading decisions.
> 
> I do feel bad for Gestalt, he went all in at $385 after the $420 funding secure tweet.




sir, when are you going to launch a Beyond ETF?  :ROFL!:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Rage's opinions aren't based around hate or fanboyism, far more informed realistic views than anyone else here.

----------


## supe

> Again, you missed my point. They had to cut capex spending dramatically in Q3 and Q4 to make profits and increase their cash position. Q4 capex spend was at a measly $325m excluding China lease and they still posted worst profits compared to Q3. So to keep being profitable at the current rate you're seeing, they need to continue to minimize capex. If they kept spending at the same levels to achieve profitability, that works out to $1.3b a year of spend. For 2019, Tesla is targeting $2.5b of capex spend mostly because of China factory. Basically, you choose one or the other. Profit with little to no growth, or grow by losing money. You can't have both. The stock is priced for growth at the moment.




I think you're confusing your statements, Capex spending doesn't hit your bottom line, so your talk about capex spending and profits doesn't make sense. They have a healthy amount of cash on hand, I say make it rain.




> There's also zero plans to quickly fix the support network, or grow the supercharger network quickly.



A bit of misinformation. On the call they said they are rolling out more service vehicles and they talked about supplying service centers with parts. 

Secondly in the report, they mentioned the rollout of SC v3. (Its in the letter)

----------


## rage2

> I think you're confusing your statements, Capex spending doesn't hit your bottom line, so your talk about capex spending and profits doesn't make sense. They have a healthy amount of cash on hand, I say make it rain.
> 
> A bit of misinformation. On the call they said they are rolling out more service vehicles and they talked about supplying service centers with parts. 
> 
> Secondly in the report, they mentioned the rollout of SC v3. (Its in the letter)



It does affect profit at some point when it becomes depreciation, but like I said, it's to increase their cash position as well. The big thing is that they're spending less capex than depreciation. That's not growth.

Service is still fucked. It's nowhere near the production and sale ramp and they need a lot of investment to keep up. These aren't quick fixes they're introducing, it's like using a bandaid for a period.  :ROFL!: 

v3 isn't going to change the landscape much in the short term either. Venture into California and you witness ridiculous lines of people charging. People are lining up with ICE cars to save a spot for the wife when she arrives in her Tesla. Fights are breaking out. It's fucking mayhem in Cali. Even if they rolled out v3 across the board, the performance is negligible. The battery can't be charged that fast, even Elon said so himself as he criticized Porsche's 800V charging in one of last year's earnings call Q&A. Right now for a full SC site, each car gets 1/2 charging speed as 2 chargers share a single connection. Not sure if v3 will fix that or not.

On a separate note, the roadside assistance is pretty cool. Hit a pothole in a Model S last month in Cali, took an hour for Tesla support to answer the call. 3rd party service showed up 45 mins later with a loaner wheel and tire, and out of there after 2 hours. As long as you're lucky enough not to have a problematic car or get into an accident, you avoid the whole service and parts side of thing that Tesla owns, and you're good to go.

----------


## supe

> It does affect profit at some point when it becomes depreciation, but like I said, it's to increase their cash position as well. The big thing is that they're spending less capex than depreciation. That's not growth.



At some point is the key, thats years down the road and Tesla will be rolling in the dough. You keep ignoring how big the potential of giga shanghai is, how is that not growth?!

----------


## rage2

> At some point is the key, thats years down the road and Tesla will be rolling in the dough. You keep ignoring how big the potential of giga shanghai is, how is that not growth?!



Because you're not looking at the whole picture. When depreciation is higher than capex, that's pretty much I'm building Shanghai for growth, but letting my existing shit retire without replacement.

That is not growth.

----------


## supe

> Because you're not looking at the whole picture. When depreciation is higher than capex, that's pretty much I'm building Shanghai for growth, but letting my existing shit retire without replacement.
> 
> That is not growth.



Depreciation is not higher than capex. Look at the yearly numbers.

I assume depreciation stays relatively flat so roughly 2B for 2019, Elon says shanghai capex to get to 3k vehicles will be 0.5 B which is your 2.5 B. 

= GROWTH

What am I missing?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JustinL

Does Rivian have anything beyond their concept trucks though? There are so many companies with nice renderings and not much beyond that, no test mules and not much other than a website to take pre-orders. Having said that... I think the VAG is going to be Tesla's biggest competitor and they're still in the development phase. The Taycan platform and the MEB platform both look fantastic and in my mind are the most likely to be the ones scaring Tesla now.

----------


## Buster

I think Tesla should buy a tent company.

You know...vertical integration.

----------


## killramos

> i think tesla should buy a tent company.
> 
> You know...vertical integration.



growth.

----------


## rage2

> Depreciation is not higher than capex. Look at the yearly numbers.
> 
> I assume depreciation stays relatively flat so roughly 2B for 2019, Elon says shanghai capex to get to 3k vehicles will be 0.5 B which is your 2.5 B. 
> 
> = GROWTH
> 
> What am I missing?



Well if you want to look at it yearly, they lost money and cash.  :dunno: 

It’s a balancing act to make numbers. They wanna be profitable and bring cash for the bond maturity? Fuck capex fuck growth, done.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## supe

> Well if you want to look at it yearly, they lost money and cash. 
> 
> It’s a balancing act to make numbers. They wanna be profitable and bring cash for the bond maturity? Fuck capex fuck growth, done.



You're the one missing the big picture. Tesla without shanghai shows that they can be profitable. Shanghai Giga is the growth story, and its happening. 

So yes they are paying their bonds, yes they are investing in capex which in turn will drive growth. Profit wise, they showed two solid quarters, next quarter will be dicy (they've already admitted this) because of the restructuring and cars in transit. After that, well you know where I stand...I guess we'll just wait and see.

----------


## benyl

> To your other point about the chinese stealing IP, this is a real threat, but I think battery pack and motors will still be produced in North America for now with the Giga Shanghai just being an assembly line, so for now the threat is minimized.



Haha. The Chinese steal IP at the port during the import process. It doesnt matter where it is made, the will reverse engineer it before it gets to the assembly factory. 

When I worked for a fracking company, this iwhat the Chinese did when the fracking company entered the Chinese market. The tools spent months and months in customs waiting to be released. Clones came out soon after they were released. 

Going into China just gives Chinese companies a huge leg up in the engineering department.

----------


## Xtrema

> Haha. The Chinese steal IP at the port during the import process. It doesn’t matter where it is made, the will reverse engineer it before it gets to the assembly factory. 
> 
> When I worked for a fracking company, this iwhat the Chinese did when the fracking company entered the Chinese market. The tools spent months and months in customs waiting to be released. Clones came out soon after they were released. 
> 
> Going into China just gives Chinese companies a huge leg up in the engineering department.



They cloned it down the the company logo that Calgary fracking truck company got called for support when they have made no sales to China.

The clones of Tesla are already plenty and out. Once local staff knows all the building secret, Tesla will have 0 tech advantage. Much like Huawei keep cloning Samsung and Apple products, has now beaten both imcumbents, whoever stolen all IP from Tesla first will kill Tesla. 

https://electrek.co/2018/04/10/ev-st...conn-xiaopeng/

Tesla has an uphill battle in China too:



But this is fine for Elon, his mission isn't profit but bring EV to masses he succeeded.

Come on sup, stop fighting so hard. Referral program is no more.  :Smilie: 

If Q4 is indication, if they can deliver 5000/week in Q1, they will probably go back to a loss.

----------


## blownz

> Service is still fucked. It's nowhere near the production and sale ramp and they need a lot of investment to keep up.



Do you know if service is bad in Calgary? In Edmonton the service guy is really slow right now. Like days straight with nothing to do. So service is really good right now (assuming your aren't waiting on parts...) Granted most 3's in the city are still really new and haven't needed much work.

----------


## Xtrema

> Do you know if service is bad in Calgary? In Edmonton the service guy is really slow right now. Like days straight with nothing to do. So service is really good right now (assuming your aren't waiting on parts...) Granted most 3's in the city are still really new and haven't needed much work.



Model 3 doesn't even come back to service centers until they hit 2 year mark. Unlike 3 and X, recommended schedule is every 2 years/48,000km.

Given most Model 3 owners are only 6-7 months into their ownership, it'll be awhile before they head back unless there are issues or missing pieces on delivery.

----------


## Maxt

> Haha. The Chinese steal IP at the port during the import process. It doesnt matter where it is made, the will reverse engineer it before it gets to the assembly factory. 
> 
> When I worked for a fracking company, this iwhat the Chinese did when the fracking company entered the Chinese market. The tools spent months and months in customs waiting to be released. Clones came out soon after they were released. 
> 
> Going into China just gives Chinese companies a huge leg up in the engineering department.



 My brother in law has the same issues with cnc production machinery shipped to China. The only way they slow the cloning process, is the machine gets shipped without software, then gets loaded upon commissioning of the machine. Once it is operational, they know they have about 3 months to come out with the next better machine.

----------


## rage2

From the owners I know here, they haven’t sold anywhere enough Model 3s to have service be a problem.

Parts are still a problem though. Tesla logistics for parts are also terrible. Go to your authorized Tesla repair shop in town and ask them to see the wrong Tesla parts storage haha.

----------


## rx7boi

> Buy under 300 sell over 350. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> Edit - just to be clear Ive stopped trading Tesla in the middle of Q3.



Question for you. If it's been volatile so far, why stop now?

Curious minds want to know.

----------


## Buster

> Question for you. If it's been volatile so far, why stop now?
> 
> Curious minds want to know.



It's like the giggle-fest TA analysis over in the crypto thread...if things are going down long term, it's much harder to make money. You still can capture the ups. It's not quite as bad with Tesla, since you can short it easier. But shorting the dips and then trying to time the blips up is harder than simply buying stock on dips.

----------


## msommers

More importantly...what are you doing at 4:30am on a Saturday?!

----------


## Xtrema

VW EA is buying Tesla batteries for charging stations
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-v...-idUSKCN1PT1NK

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## mazdavirgin

60k car and you can't open the doors in the winter?  :facepalm:

----------


## killramos

It’s the future. Car is just telling you to stay home.

----------


## supe

> 60k car and you can't open the doors in the winter?



Odd how you think this is specific to Tesla.

Random googe search:
http://blog.mercedesbenzraleigh.com/...t-do-i-do-now/

I left mine outdoors for several hours at a time over the weekend with no issues. 

I'm guessing you'll face this issue more if you park outdoors overnight.

----------


## Xtrema

> 60k car and you can't open the doors in the winter?



This has been happening on Model S and X for almost forever. Even worst on those because it's motorized. At least with Model 3, you can just pound on it with force to free the handle.

You are not supposed to park Tesla's outside if you have an garage. The cold will kill the battery and make charging inefficient. People who has a garage but decided to park it outside is just asking for drama.

----------


## Buster

> More importantly...what are you doing at 4:30am on a Saturday?!



Up early in the eastern timezone, ha

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

If you question Tesla's financials you know nothing about financial reporting, if you question their construction methodology you know nothing about building cars, if you question their poor build quality you're just a hater. All hail Tesla or GTFO.

Yawn. Nothing new to see here.

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/tesl...5-a-share.html

Tesla bought Maxwell tech today.

Future isn't batteries, it's ultracapacitors.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/tesl...5-a-share.html
> 
> Tesla bought Maxwell tech today.
> 
> Future isn't batteries, it's ultracapacitors.



That is cool.

----------


## supe

> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/tesl...5-a-share.html
> 
> Tesla bought Maxwell tech today.
> 
> Future isn't batteries, it's ultracapacitors.



Actually it might still be batteries, although it could also be ultracapacitors, Maxwell does both. This was an interesting acquisition because we don't really know what Tesla's play is but Maxwell recently developed a new battery technology called Dry Battery Electrode. Basically longer life, higher energy densities and less reliant on rare earth resources. 

Check page 10 for a summary:

http://s21.q4cdn.com/566123494/files...rence-Deck.pdf

Here is a paper on the tech:

http://www.powersourcesconference.co...t/docs/3-1.pdf

----------


## rage2

Ultracapacitors are also the bridge for fuel cells especially for performance vehicles as fuel cells are brutal at high energy outputs compared to batteries. 

As for cold weather, Calgary isn’t too bad for freezing doors. It’s high humidity climates where temperatures fluctuate above and below freezing where it’s a problem. Shit melts and seeps between the door handle gap which then freezes tight overnight. Model S and X aren’t a problem because it’s motorized and punches out the ice. Regular handles aren’t much of a problem because you have leverage on the handle to break the ice. Model 3 is problematic because you have no leverage to move the flush handles when it’s frozen.

----------


## Xtrema

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...parking-fears/




> Some 150 employees out of a team of about 230 were let go in January at the Las Vegas facility that gets tens of thousands of Model 3s into the hands of U.S. and Canadian buyers, they said, in a sign the company expected the pace of deliveries to significantly slow in the near term.
> 
> The cuts, which have not been previously reported, could fuel investor worries that demand for the Model 3 in the United States has tailed off after a large tax break for consumers expired last year and the car remains too expensive for most consumers.
> 
> Tesla has said its focus this quarter is on supplying cars to customers waiting in China and Europe.
> 
> “There are not enough deliveries,” one of the former employees told Reuters. “You don’t need a team because there are not that many cars coming through.”

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...parking-fears/



You're not looking at that the right way, that's growth.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

> Question for you. If it's been volatile so far, why stop now?
> 
> Curious minds want to know.



I did something a little different for tracking when to buy/sell Tesla stock starting about 2 years ago. I analyzed owners and investor sentiment on forums, reddit, twitter and other social platforms where Tesla fans are active and looked for shifts in their thinking. Surprisingly, there were a lot of early warning signals that could be used to predicted large movement of the price of the stock because bloggers/journalists were using the same data to write negative/positive pieces. TSLA is a very emotional stock, lots of investors move their money in and out of the stock based on emotion, overreactions and not fundamentals.

With that said, why did I stop in Q4 last year? The sentiment has shifted significantly towards the negative. You have Tesla superfan boys criticizing the company. Bloggers and journalists are writing more negative articles. It became much harder to predict where the needle was going to move. You can have negative news and the stock goes up, positive news where the stock goes down. Many of the movements are coin tosses.

----------


## rage2

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/350...ow?redirect=no

Base Tesla is now available. $49k CAD. RWD, 354km range. To cut costs to get to this price, almost all Tesla stores are closing down. If you haven't noticed, the Chinook store closed around 2 weeks ago.

Autopilot is now split into basic autopilot (adaptive cruise + steer control), while self parking, summon, navigate on AP moves to the full self driving package. Not sure what happens to people that purchased before today where AP package included all this stuff, or the people that bought FSD that was supposed to have even more features.

No more test drives. Buy online only. Delivery at (guessing) Service Centers.

Interesting way to cut costs.

edit - fuck I got tricked. Again. When will I learn? They snuck in fuel savings in that fucking base price again, so it's not $41k. Actual price for base model is $47600 + $1300, so $49k + GST.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> edit - fuck I got tricked. Again. When will I learn? They snuck in fuel savings in that fucking base price again, so it's not $41k. Actual price for base model is $47600 + $1300, so $49k + GST.



That's what everyone who buys them says too! Fuck, I didn't realize how expensive these were!

----------


## jacky4566

Sounds like the reality of business is starting to catch up with Tesla. I fully support them but they have to balance the sheets if they are going to survive long term. 

On a semi-related note. Did you guys see the Volvo "Tesla Killer" Polestar 2? 
https://www.polestar.com/cars/polestar-2

400HP, AWD, 450km Range. 45kUSD (65k on first launch).

If they can deliver those specs I might even buy one! Although the colour choices were done by a colorblind Swede.

----------


## Darell_n

> That's what everyone who buys them says too! Fuck, I didn't realize how expensive these were!



Once the Chinese Telsa factory opens up, we will get $18k clones made by Huawei.

----------


## dirtsniffer

But how terrible would a self driving Chinese car be? At least it would always have its high beams on to warn people

----------


## killramos

Quel surprise

----------


## rage2

Massive price drops on the S and X too. What was once a $204k car is now $144k (loaded S ludicrous).

----------


## killramos

Interesting. Has anything been turfed to get there?

That’s a way better “value” proposition.

----------


## rage2

> Interesting. Has anything been turfed to get there?
> 
> That’s a way better “value” proposition.



Nope. Yea, similar price as E63S that’s a decent value prop. That’s a massive hit on margins too. Demand must be toast.

US pricing slightly different in structure. Roughly $30k drop in price.

----------


## Buster

Damn. Things are turning to shit for Tesla even faster than I expected.

----------


## ExtraSlow

You guys have this all wrong. It's proof that they are getting more efficient at building these vehicles (or Transportation Replacement Activity Pods as Elon calls them).

----------


## killramos

> Nope. Yea, similar price as E63S that’s a decent value prop. That’s a massive hit on margins too. Demand must be toast.
> 
> US pricing slightly different in structure. Roughly $30k drop in price.



I would be pissed if I had just dropped 200 on one and then they drop the price by 40% that’s for sure.

What kind of life cycle do we see for the model S. It may have seen pretty decent updates over time. But when is Model S 2?

----------


## Skyline_Addict

Would this be a good time to look at a used Model S? Is there such thing as a good used Tesla?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Jlude

> I would be pissed if I had just dropped 200 on one and then they drop the price by 40% that’s for sure.



I'm not that mad actually  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:

----------


## killramos

> I'm not that mad actually



I mean, it probably just increased your TCO by at least 30-40k? Just due to accelerated depreciation.

That makes me think, think of how many leased model S’s that Tesla will be buying back at prices that are completely underwater...

That will be another nice hit to cash...

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Massive price drops on the S and X too. What was once a $204k car is now $144k (loaded S ludicrous).



At least there's something out there that depreciates harder than a Cadillac now.

----------


## rage2

I feel sorry for the investors who bought Tesla's asset backed lease bonds in December. Tesla cashed out on the leases for an immediate return, transferred the residual risk to the bond holders, and fucked them right up the ass.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> I feel sorry for the investors who bought Tesla's asset backed lease bonds in December. Tesla cashed out on the leases for an immediate return, transferred the residual risk to the bond holders, and fucked them right up the ass.



Man, it's funny how badly you don't understand capex, growth or the bond/stock market. These things are all positive signs of success if you take the hater filter off.

----------


## Buster

> Man, it's funny how badly you don't understand capex, growth or the bond/stock market. These things are all positive signs of success if you take the hater filter off.



iswydt

----------


## Xtrema

> I mean, it probably just increased your TCO by at least 30-40k? Just due to accelerated depreciation.
> 
> That makes me think, think of how many leased model S’s that Tesla will be buying back at prices that are completely underwater...
> 
> That will be another nice hit to cash...



I am sure their leasing partners for S and X are not too happy about this.

And good luck finding someone to run the leasing program for the 3.

----------


## killramos

This just REEKS of a company that is in it for the long haul rather than short term survival eh?

----------


## Xtrema

> This just REEKS of a company that is in it for the long haul rather than short term survival eh?



Actually, don't know what it was before, Model S residual is set at 16% after 48months. So lender seems to be protected anyway.

----------


## rage2

> Actually, don't know what it was before, Model S residual is set at 16% after 48months. So lender seems to be protected anyway.



For the US lease bonds that were sold, the underlying leases had quite high residuals of 58%-65% over 36 months with a 5.04% interest rate for the S and X. Surprisingly, the X being the SUV was the one with the high 65% residual, when SUVs typically command really low residuals due to higher depreciation than cars. The high Tesla residuals are to entice leases with decent low monthly payments, and I'm guessing a shot in the dark gamble that Teslas would hold their value way more than anyone else to follow the narrative. A gamble that didn't pay off, and lucky for Tesla, offloaded it and fucked someone else over instead.

----------


## hurrdurr

Will Alberta ever have Environmental incentives for electric vehicles? Quebec i think gets $8000 off as well as a rebate for installing the electrical outlet.

----------


## Buster

you buy tesla lease bonds, you have no one else to blame but yourself

#tents

----------


## killramos

> Will Alberta ever have Environmental incentives for electric vehicles? Quebec i think gets $8000 off as well as a rebate for installing the electrical outlet.



Why would we? 89% of Albertas electricity is generated from fossil fuels. Even if you ignore all of the other environmental drains caused by producing electric cars, What exactly are you incentivizing?

Help rich people to buy expensive cars? You know, I would love a V8 subsidy under the guise of stimulating the oil and gas sector amirit?

----------


## Xtrema

> Will Alberta ever have Environmental incentives for electric vehicles? Quebec i think gets $8000 off as well as a rebate for installing the electrical outlet.



I have a sinking feeling that Trudeau with push a Fed EV program for relection.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> you buy tesla lease bonds, you have no one else to blame but yourself
> 
> #tents



It's past tents now.

----------


## Jlude

> I mean, it probably just increased your TCO by at least 30-40k? Just due to accelerated depreciation.
> 
> That makes me think, think of how many leased model S’s that Tesla will be buying back at prices that are completely underwater...
> 
> That will be another nice hit to cash...



I just priced out my car again, same spec (the paint is no longer offered) and it's $12k cheaper now. What am I missing, the way you guys were reacting earlier, I thought they dropped the price by 40k.

Before I bought the car, I made peace with the annual cost of ownership, basing it on the total cost of the vehicle at that time. I assumed I would have the car for 5 years and after 5 years, likely sell it for whatever I could get and move on, with low expectations. I expected this to happen when I purchased, I think Raj2 and I even talked about this exact scenario right after I purchased. 

EDIT - Ran the numbers again, it's actually $24.8k cheaper now. Those bastards.  :ROFL!: 





> I am sure their leasing partners for S and X are not too happy about this.
> 
> And good luck finding someone to run the leasing program for the 3.



Exactly. I'm a Tesla fan, and this is the first time that I've felt concerned about the company.

----------


## killramos

I was just going off Rages 204k to 144k peak to peak number.

----------


## Xtrema

> I was just going off Rages 204k to 144k peak to peak number.



I found 2018 P100D MSRP base to be $174K. Same car today is $132K. So it's $42K off base to base.

----------


## you&me

> I found 2018 P100D MSRP base to be $174K. Same car today is $132K. So it's $42K off base to base.



They must have lowered the price on options too. I've seen many-a Tesla P100s with >$200k MSRPs...

----------


## rage2

I posted screenshots of the over 200k fully loaded price I dunno how many pages back. At the time the premium package, air suspension, and a bunch of other pieces were all high $ options. They’re all included in the base price now. Can really only compare fully loaded (minus AP) pricing back then to the base car now since everything is included.

----------


## Xtrema

https://twitter.com/ShanghaiJayin/st...109676034?s=09

Ppl mad about price drop.

----------


## phreezee

^^^ environmentalism is a privilege of the elite!

----------


## Xtrema

https://electrek.co/2019/03/04/tesla...st-price-cuts/

China too. It's 50% off in Taiwan.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Tesla owners have weak protests.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> ^^^ environmentalism is a privilege of the elite!



"I don't look nearly as rich as I did before!" - What they're actually complaining about

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Tesla owners have weak protests.



Most Vegans have weak everything.

----------


## dirtsniffer

> "I don't look nearly as rich as I did before!" - What they're actually complaining about



or you know, the fact that their residual value just decreased by $50,000 overnight. If I bought a $50,000 truck and then 2 months later the company dropped the price of the same vehicle to $25,000 I would be pissed as well

----------


## killramos

^ this

These things also don’t change over night, clearly the cars were 50k overpriced last month.

----------


## rage2

There are potential ramifications with the FSD price drop. Tesla encouraged buyers to buy now on FSD or face price increases in the future. Instead the price dropped significantly on something that still hasn’t released yet and falsely led early adopters to purchase under false pretenses. Will be interesting how it plays out. 

The bigger problem is the actual vehicle’s drop in price. It makes absolutely zero sense. The margins on the cars are negative at those prices. If you look at their 2 profitable quarters where they sold every car they built and adjusted revenue based on the new prices, the 2 quarters would combine for a $1.5b loss. I’m not sure how much the layoffs and closing the stores would be saving, but they need to save $1.5b to just break even, assuming they sell everything they build. That’s not happening, unsold inventory is pretty high so the theory is the price drops is to relieve that inventory as actual cash with the price drops to keep the lights on. There are some calculations out there that puts Tesla at under $1b in actual cash after their bond payment. That’s not good. 

As mentioned earlier, capex continues to go down, so they’re not spending for the future at all. China is still a desolate piece of land with no funding yet. The stores closing is even more baffling. Stores that just opened in December and January got closed in the first round. That’s right, plan and spend money to open stores only to shut them down the next month, and incur termination penalties. Nothing makes sense right now. Tesla needs to raise cash now if they want to continue growing. No clue why they’re not doing it. Maybe the markets dried up on their mission, or Elon’s unpredictability. 

RIP Gestalt’s all in portfolio.

----------


## Buster

maybe they are setting up for an acquisition.

----------


## rage2

> maybe they are setting up for an acquisition.



Nobody would acquire them with their valuation, long term debt, or long term liabilities. Things such as promise of APv3, upgrades, warranties, software promises, FSD... that’s huge exposure to unknown expenses. Tesla has a lot of value in their tech, both batteries and motors are well ahead of everyone else, those are only worth picking up if they liquidate.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> maybe they are setting up for an acquisition.






> Nobody would acquire them with their valuation, long term debt, or long term liabilities. Things such as promise of APv3, upgrades, warranties, software promises, FSD... that’s huge exposure to unknown expenses. Tesla has a lot of value in their tech, both batteries and motors are well ahead of everyone else, those are only worth picking up if they liquidate.



Rage you have it backwards, they will be the aquirer, not the aquiree. Watch out Volkswagen, General Motors and Honda, Elon is coming for you!

----------


## killramos

I can’t wait to put my order in for my Ford Focus Tesla.

Gonna get it the license plate TLDYASO  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

Atodaso

----------


## Tik-Tok

> I can’t wait to put my order in for my Ford Focus Tesla.
> 
> Gonna get it the license plate TLDYASO






> My bet is they are going to come up with a new name, for selling whatever hybrid/electric cars they come up with. They need a new name to sell to the new generation, Ford (as well as GM and Dodge) is synonymous with gas guzzler.



https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/407...neup?p=4726538

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

I can't believe big oil is getting away with this. #freetesla no, wait a second, #halfpricetesla first.

----------


## killramos

I have been on my ford focus tesla thing for YEARS

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

Dont worry about it they are completely flush with CASHMONEY

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Where's Supe"r"Tesla to explain how to reframe this as growth?

Silly thing is, I don't think anyone wants to see technological advancement fail - you'd have to be an idiot. It's the watching people ignore so many issues with sheer religious fervor that's the funny thing. When it fails hopefully somebody advances the technology. as alternative forms of energy and advancements in energy storage become more prevalent, it's just a winning play.

IF it doesn't fail, it likely will be an act of God in which case the faithful will be happy to show us how to repent to Saint Musk.

----------


## rage2

> Isn't Tesla leveraged hard against their stock price?
> 
> I've heard that ~250 is the ultimate breaking point... if it goes below that,creditors get to tear the company apart



No, Elon is personally. Nobody knows what the point is that triggers a margin call on his loans. $100, $200, $250, all speculation. When it triggers and he's forced to unload shares at a high volume, that's a problem. Even Tesla identified this as a risk as far back as 2017 in their filings and stepped in to limit the maximum exposure Elon has with the stock as collateral to lower the risk.

----------


## Xtrema

> Don’t worry about it they are completely flush with CASHMONEY



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ster-mortgages

May be he's ready to pull a Gestalt.

----------


## ercchry

> No, Elon is personally. Nobody knows what the point is that triggers a margin call on his loans. $100, $200, $250, all speculation. When it triggers and he's forced to unload shares at a high volume, that's a problem. Even Tesla identified this as a risk as far back as 2017 in their filings and stepped in to limit the maximum exposure Elon has with the stock as collateral to lower the risk.






> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ster-mortgages
> 
> May be he's ready to pull a Gestalt.



I think there is enough information in this article to figure out a pretty accurate ballpark on the margin call

Most lenders will do 50-80% LTV on these sorts of share backed loans

----------


## Xtrema

Well Supercharger V3 1000mi/hr or 256kw charge rate.

https://leftlanenews.com/tesla/tesla...r-charge-rate/

Only applies to Model3, Model S and X owners can go pound sand.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## Xtrema

> Well this is hilarious but also kinda ridiculous. The CEO of SpaceX may be about to lose his U.S. security clearance, all because of that one infamous puff.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/tech/...gon/index.html



That will amount to nothing. Demo-1 just succeeded and China and Russia are both super jelly. Especially Russia as they are about to lose the privatize space race and the west doesn't need to hitch a ride on crappy Soyuz any more.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019...g-left-behind/


Now the question is will US revoke his access due to his Tesla side of business in China where Chinese government may force some Space-X secret out of him to allow him to continue to sell in China. That's a risk.

----------


## Gman.45

Where do Tesla owners in Calgary go for service? There is no center on their interactive map, and I read Rage2 someplace had written that store in Calgary is closed or closing, as are most others. Ya, buying a 6 figure+ car online is swell, but wtf do you do when it breaks? After having a hybrid plug in Pacifica for a week, I really dug the whole plug in at night and drive all day in the city without the gas motor lighting up once experience, and when we bought our Lexus the Tesla 4 door was something we'd considered having been passengers in one once. 

This whole "close all our dealers in order to balance $ enough to sell your $35k car" sounds ridiculous to me, seriously, where do owners go for service then, if there are no dealers?

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## killramos

Simple Teslas never break they are perfect forever.

Its really just financially stupid to not buy one

----------


## Jlude

> Where do Tesla owners in Calgary go for service? There is no center on their interactive map, and I read Rage2 someplace had written that store in Calgary is closed or closing, as are most others. Ya, buying a 6 figure+ car online is swell, but wtf do you do when it breaks? After having a hybrid plug in Pacifica for a week, I really dug the whole plug in at night and drive all day in the city without the gas motor lighting up once experience, and when we bought our Lexus the Tesla 4 door was something we'd considered having been passengers in one once. 
> 
> This whole "close all our dealers in order to balance $ enough to sell your $35k car" sounds ridiculous to me, seriously, where do owners go for service then, if there are no dealers?



I have a mobile tech come to my house. I have only ever had one minor cosmetic issue with the car and it was quickly dealt with. I don't know if the mobile service is only because I don't have a service center close.

----------


## Gman.45

> ^^^ They are not closing their service centres, just most of their stores, which are kinda useless since most of their sales are online anyway. 
> 
> Calgary's Tesla service centre on Fairmount Dr. will remain open but the "store" in Chinook will close.
> 
> According to Musk, they plan on opening more service centres.



Ah, ok, thanks - I looked for 20 mins and couldn't find any specific info about service centers opening/closing with dealers in Canada. Got a ton of info about the mobile service, which said 3/4 of the problems they can deal with, but my fortunes with cars tend to lean towards the other 1/4, hence the concern. Maybe I've become a bit gunshy after going down the Youtube rabbit hole on Rich Rebuild's Tesla channel. 

I realize all the negatives people throw at them, but once I drove in one I was pretty much sold on the idea AND the car, it was really incredible, especially the acceleration and all the tech gadgets. The lack of support was the one thing that kept us from driving 7 hours to go test one out as when we bought our Lexus LC500 we were committed to SASK for another year at least. Back in Calgary this year, and we'll look at all the Tesla models, I wouldn't even mind the entry level car, as I like I said I really liked the plug in Pacifica van we had for bombing around town. Would still rather have the P100 though, we'll see.

----------


## ExtraSlow

It's weird how terrible they are at providing solid information on the interwebz considering that's their main/only sales channel.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> It's weird how terrible they are at providing solid information on the interwebz considering that's their main/only sales channel.



Too much information is dangerous, they're still funded by hype.

----------


## 01RedDX

.

----------


## Xtrema

Sorry guys, store closing and price cut was a mistake. Reversing both.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/upd...ng?redirect=no

You have til Mar 18th, the get your Tesla on current discounted prices.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I love that this corporate philosophy of "keep em guessing" applies to both customers and investors.

----------


## killramos

Morons, I bet this was just a stunt to boost quarterly sales.

----------


## Buster

> Sorry guys, store closing and price cut was a mistake. Reversing both.
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/upd...ng?redirect=no
> 
> You have til Mar 18th, the get your Tesla on current discounted prices.



Add dangling prepositions to my Tesla shit list. Stop getting your interns to write press releases.

----------


## rage2

> ^^^ They are not closing their service centres, just most of their stores, which are kinda useless since most of their sales are online anyway. 
> 
> Calgary's Tesla service centre on Fairmount Dr. will remain open but the "store" in Chinook will close.



Fairmont (service center) is open. There were incorrect reports out there that says it's closed but it's 100% open. Chinook actually closed back in January, well before this announcement so most likely has nothing to do with their last minute plans. Chinook also got rid of their superchargers so there aren't any in Calgary anymore, closest is Cross Iron.




> I have a mobile tech come to my house. I have only ever had one minor cosmetic issue with the car and it was quickly dealt with. I don't know if the mobile service is only because I don't have a service center close.



Calgary was mobile service only until they opened a service center. Not sure if they still offer mobile with the service center open though.




> Morons, I bet this was just a stunt to boost quarterly sales.



If I were to guess, it would be to boost deposits. That's cash right now for future recognition.

----------


## Xtrema

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-employees...-am-1833201246

Looks like reversing decision may now have disgruntle employee on their hands at remaining stores.

----------


## arcticcat522

Honestly, you can't make this stuff up!! I can't wait for the movie

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Looks like reversing decision may now have disgruntle employee on their hands at remaining stores.



If they all quit, Elon wins. if they don't, Elon wins. He's a genius!!!!

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Tesla is likely the ONLY company for which I would applaud Union certification.

----------


## killramos

> Honestly, you can't make this stuff up!! I can't wait for the movie



FYRE - Car editions

----------


## Buster

> FYRE - Car editions



Boom

----------


## triplep

So much for China re-engineering the vehicle once they get it into China. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/22/tech/...uit/index.html

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

Tesla will only give access to all their patents if you give up the right to sue them for anything at all, including Tesla using your patents.

----------


## Xtrema

Less generous referral program is back:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...t-with-a-twist

----------


## rage2

Speculation on price drops was due to lowering demand, looks like that was spot on.

http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/ne...ion-deliveries

Deliveries down 31%. Difference in transit numbers from last quarter was around 8000 vehicles, add that as delivered and STILL down by 22%. The biggest money makers, the S and X, dropped by a whopping 56%, and that's with the price drops to reel in additional demand. With a shift to the lower margin mid range Model 3 and now the short range+ (35k car still nowhere to be found), yea, Q1 is going to be a bloodbath. Unless they made stupid money selling FSD on sale. Production of Model 3 still hasn't passed 5000/week, sitting at 4800/week.

Is there ANY good news?  :crazy nut:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Is there ANY good news?



I'm expecting Supe to come in and explain it shortly.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

I hear they fired all the staff at the Calgary Service Center today.

https://twitter.com/model3owners/sta...684508672?s=21

Nope. No good news.

----------


## rage2

That’s crazy. One of the great things about Tesla ownership here was the service. Top notch here unlike in Cali.

----------


## Gman.45

> I hear they fired all the staff at the Calgary Service Center today.
> 
> https://twitter.com/model3owners/sta...684508672?s=21
> 
> Nope. No good news.



Well, that settles that, no Tesla this spring then for me. Wouldn't be real thrilled with some kid showing up with a briefcase saying "hi, I'm here to fix/service your $150k car" at my front door....

We were very serious about picking up at least one, probably two different Tesla models in Calgary this spring. No longer. I tried calling the Calgary Tesla service center yesterday and again this morning - the phone just rings and rings, no answering service pickup, and nobody home. While not confirmation that this Tweet is legit, it certainly gives it more credit, not having anyone on the phones...

If I had purchased a Tesla car in Calgary in the last couple of years, I'd be PISSED right now, as part of the reason I would have bought one was knowing there was a local service shop I could bring the car to for service and repair.

----------


## killramos

I really hope they are up for sale, for shareholder's sake...

Or rather, debtholders sake.

----------


## Gman.45

I called Tesla Canada just now to ask them about the Calgary service center. She told me that she was "in corporate" and had "no information about the Calgary service center", after I explained the Tweet/etc. I then asked her "who would have that information". She then hung up on me. Nice huh. (It's recorded).




> I really hope they are up for sale, for shareholder's sake...
> 
> Or rather, debtholders sake.



Yes, but who would buy them at anything other than a fire sale price - that's sure not going to help the shareholders out much, at least in the short/mid term.

----------


## killramos

> I called Tesla Canada just now to ask them about the Calgary service center. She told me that she was "in corporate" and had "no information about the Calgary service center", after I explained the Tweet/etc. I then asked her "who would have that information". She then hung up on me. Nice huh. (It's recorded).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but who would buy them at anything other than a fire sale price - that's sure not going to help the shareholders out much, at least in the short/mid term.



Hence my second comment.

They are worth what they are worth, the Tesla longs have to realize that eventually.

----------


## Gman.45

Agreed.

Vilas Cap management and other funds that are short on Tesla are probably starting to salivate a bit more than normal after this last week or two.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Jlude

> That’s crazy. One of the great things about Tesla ownership here was the service. Top notch here unlike in Cali.



I have never physically been to the YYC SC, but I could never get a hold of them or get emails replied, I would typically have to c/c everyone and say WTF!




> Well, that settles that, no Tesla this spring then for me. Wouldn't be real thrilled with some kid showing up with a briefcase saying "hi, I'm here to fix/service your $150k car" at my front door....
> 
> We were very serious about picking up at least one, probably two different Tesla models in Calgary this spring. No longer. I tried calling the Calgary Tesla service center yesterday and again this morning - the phone just rings and rings, no answering service pickup, and nobody home. While not confirmation that this Tweet is legit, it certainly gives it more credit, not having anyone on the phones...
> 
> If I had purchased a Tesla car in Calgary in the last couple of years, I'd be PISSED right now, as part of the reason I would have bought one was knowing there was a local service shop I could bring the car to for service and repair.



I don't see what the problem is? I bought mine and I live in Winnipeg, the mobile tech shows up, does his thing and leaves. Nice guy, easy to get along with and all I have had done was replace the center console CF piece because it was scratched.

----------


## Gman.45

> I have never physically been to the YYC SC, but I could never get a hold of them or get emails replied, I would typically have to c/c everyone and say WTF!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see what the problem is? I bought mine and I live in Winnipeg, the mobile tech shows up, does his thing and leaves. Nice guy, easy to get along with and all I have had done was replace the center console CF piece because it was scratched.



Ya, and that's great for a simple problem. What happens when something major goes, and they need a lift to get the car up off the ground for example? Example the really heavy components, say like the gearbox/trans - the 25% of repairs that Tesla itself says can't be done by mobile service (they claim that up to 75 or even 80 percent can be done by mobile service techs). Then what? If you take a Tesla under warranty to a non-certified shop for repairs, it voids the entire warranty (I was told this twice by two different Tesla agents today). There are hundreds of stories online about owners who are still waiting for body work/panels/etc from accidents, and does the same thing goes there, no certified shop, no more warranty?

I'm not knocking the cars or the tech, we wanted (and still want) to buy a S P100D and perhaps an X SO badly, it's all the missus has talked about since riding in one, and thanks to that, her "new" car we got last year, she's lost all interest in since riding in a friends S and X for a while. However, I'm NOT going to drop 1 or 2 hundred k into vehicles that have no local shop I can get them serviced and especially repaired at, no matter how good the mobile techs are at fixing little doo-dad problems. I'd love to see a mobile tech replace major powertrain/drive unit/motors/battery in some guys parking spot outside of his condo...

----------


## Brent.ff

> and thanks to that, her "new" car we got last year, she's lost all interest in since riding in a friends S and X for a while. ..



Sounds like you have much bigger issues then Tesla service in your future

----------


## Maxt

They can rent a bay at U-wrench. 
Some may find this of interest.

https://youtu.be/2DucRxWz_58

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Sounds like you have much bigger issues then Tesla service in your future



Werd! Lololol

----------


## Xtrema

Wow. Just wow. So I guess their Fairmount Dr location is closed?

Looks like cash crunch is real.

----------


## ExtraSlow

This is pretty cool. Someone went on an extended camping trip with a Tesla model X towing a small trailer. 
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-superchargers

Neat option for a retired couple who isn't in a hurry. Would be pretty awful with a bunch of kids.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> Wow. Just wow. So I guess their Fairmount Dr location is closed?
> 
> Looks like cash crunch is real.



They just dropped a bunch of cars off the other day, so probably not closed yet. Honestly I hope they do shut it down, those assholes park in the right lane just before the Glenmore on-ramp and fuck traffic up every few days.

----------


## Xtrema

> They just dropped a bunch of cars off the other day, so probably not closed yet. Honestly I hope they do shut it down, those assholes park in the right lane just before the Glenmore on-ramp and fuck traffic up every few days.



I wonder if only services side is affected, it's still the sales and delivery point.

----------


## Jlude

> Ya, and that's great for a simple problem. What happens when something major goes, and they need a lift to get the car up off the ground for example? Example the really heavy components, say like the gearbox/trans - the 25% of repairs that Tesla itself says can't be done by mobile service (they claim that up to 75 or even 80 percent can be done by mobile service techs). Then what? If you take a Tesla under warranty to a non-certified shop for repairs, it voids the entire warranty (I was told this twice by two different Tesla agents today). There are hundreds of stories online about owners who are still waiting for body work/panels/etc from accidents, and does the same thing goes there, no certified shop, no more warranty?
> 
> I'm not knocking the cars or the tech, we wanted (and still want) to buy a S P100D and perhaps an X SO badly, it's all the missus has talked about since riding in one, and thanks to that, her "new" car we got last year, she's lost all interest in since riding in a friends S and X for a while. However, I'm NOT going to drop 1 or 2 hundred k into vehicles that have no local shop I can get them serviced and especially repaired at, no matter how good the mobile techs are at fixing little doo-dad problems. I'd love to see a mobile tech replace major powertrain/drive unit/motors/battery in some guys parking spot outside of his condo...



I know here in Winnipeg they do most stuff at my home and then anything they need a lift for, they cooperate and rent space from one of the local bigger shops to perform the larger work. I believe that's the reason why the don't feel they need a service center here. 

Your post give me the sense your'e all over the place. In two sentences you say you wanted to, and still want to, but then you say you won't. As for the mobile techs doing anything, they're certainly not going to replace major components in your parking spot, they'll coordinate with a local shop. You seem to only be discouraged from buying a Tesla by the lack of a conventional building with the word "TESLA" on it.

----------


## Xtrema

Fake news:

https://electrek.co/2019/04/08/tesla...inappropriate/

Sounds like disgruntle employee fired over some inappropriate behavior. Calgary service center isn't going anywhere.

----------


## killramos

Tesla Internally: fuck people are really pissed about us shutting this service facility down

Tesla to the public: We totally arent shutting the facility down, we just happened to fire everyone who works there. They were sharing n00ds which aint cool. We are going to open up a new service facility staffed by black jack dealers and hookers. Wait...

----------


## rage2

> Fake news:
> 
> https://electrek.co/2019/04/08/tesla...inappropriate/
> 
> Sounds like disgruntle employee fired over some inappropriate behavior. Calgary service center isn't going anywhere.



It's not fake news. That article has as many 1/2 truths as the "service center is closed" posts on TMC. Talked to a few people in the know over the weekend. The entire service team was let go. Literally every single member that worked on the service side of things. There's still staff there but on the customer experience side of things. It's not just a single disgruntled employee. It's the entire service team, from front end to technicians. So while technically, the service center isn't closed, there is literally nobody to service anything in the bays. There is no replacement staff at this time. Training in Fremont takes months to get certified, so unless someone has been secretly training Tesla service techs the last couple of months...

----------


## Maxt

> Fake news:
> 
> https://electrek.co/2019/04/08/tesla...inappropriate/
> 
> Sounds like disgruntle employee fired over some inappropriate behavior. Calgary service center isn't going anywhere.



 It was probably Challenger red eye pics or cool engines.

----------


## Xtrema

In other news,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1RJ03I

FCA provided lifeline to Tesla to avoid EU fines.

Tesla sent out a feeler and on FCA took the offer.

----------


## Jlude

> In other news,
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1RJ03I
> 
> FCA provided lifeline to Tesla to avoid EU fines.
> 
> Tesla sent out a feeler and on FCA took the offer.



That works until they change the rules.

----------


## Gman.45

> I know here in Winnipeg they do most stuff at my home and then anything they need a lift for, they cooperate and rent space from one of the local bigger shops to perform the larger work. I believe that's the reason why the don't feel they need a service center here. 
> 
> Your post give me the sense your'e all over the place. In two sentences you say you wanted to, and still want to, but then you say you won't. As for the mobile techs doing anything, they're certainly not going to replace major components in your parking spot, they'll coordinate with a local shop. You seem to only be discouraged from buying a Tesla by the lack of a conventional building with the word "TESLA" on it.



I'll be more clear - We want to still buy a Tesla (or 2), and we WOULD still buy them, contingent upon Telsa having the proper facilities and capabilities to service these vehicles in a timely fashion - as in the same time other dealers take - for the entire time we would own them. Since in Calgary this is obviously NOT the case right now, at least for the near future, IMO, with there not being a service center, we won't be. Simple. We bought an LC500 last year, and again, after riding in the Teslas some friend in California own, she's hooked on them, and won't shut up about getting them. While some might call that "trouble", it's 1st world trouble, which I'm happy to accept, as she's pretty stingy despite having the means not to be. She just wants the magic space car tech, despite losing the exhaust note of the LC500, which was one of the things that sold her on that particular car over a bunch of others. I posted before we bought the LC500 several times, and specifically said that even then we were strongly considering the Tesla S even then. She just hadn't spent much if any time in a Tesla until nearly a year after we bought the Lexus. As I said in the last post, I like the cars and the tech, the only thing keeping me from buying and driving them right now is a large serving of no service center, and a bit of financial picture on the side. 

Also, it's not completely "fake news" about the local service center. I called it again today - rang forever again. I called Tesla's 1800 line again - same story. Called the 1800 service line and tried to book an appointment with the Calgary service center, and couldn't. 

As for the mobile team coordinating with a local shop - does anyone have evidence of this happening? How does the mobile service team get access to all the parts and tools they'll need doing this? I'm not saying it's impossible, just that the logistics of this alone would make it very difficult IMO. "Hi, we're calling to co ordinate the repair of your 140,000 dollar vehicle, please come by Joe's body shop once all your parts show up, and we'll then send out the mobile tech to change out your damaged or broken parts". I'll pass on that.


edit - OK, I finally stopped getting the rapid busy when hitting the "service" extension number, and got a live person in Calgary on the phone. She told me that the head of the Vancouver Tesla service center was there today, and was already conducting interviews, and that they had pulled in a lot of techs from other centers across Canada and the USA, and would keep the center fully manned until qualified replacements had passed their probationary periods (whatever that meant) and were fully certified Tesla techs. If that's the case, and it sticks, it'd go a long way in our specific case.

----------


## vengie

> I'll be more clear - We want to still buy a Tesla (or 2), and we WOULD still buy them, contingent upon Telsa having the proper facilities and capabilities to service these vehicles in a timely fashion - as in the same time other dealers take - for the entire time we would own them. Since in Calgary this is obviously NOT the case right now, at least for the near future, IMO, with there not being a service center, we won't be. Simple. We bought an LC500 last year, and again, after riding in the Teslas some friend in California own, she's hooked on them, and won't shut up about getting them. While some might call that "trouble", it's 1st world trouble, which I'm happy to accept, as she's pretty stingy despite having the means not to be. She just wants the magic space car tech, despite losing the exhaust note of the LC500, which was one of the things that sold her on that particular car over a bunch of others. I posted before we bought the LC500 several times, and specifically said that even then we were strongly considering the Tesla S even then. She just hadn't spent much if any time in a Tesla until nearly a year after we bought the Lexus. As I said in the last post, I like the cars and the tech, the only thing keeping me from buying and driving them right now is a large serving of no service center, and a bit of financial picture on the side. 
> 
> Also, it's not completely "fake news" about the local service center. I called it again today - rang forever again. I called Tesla's 1800 line again - same story. Called the 1800 service line and tried to book an appointment with the Calgary service center, and couldn't. 
> 
> As for the mobile team coordinating with a local shop - does anyone have evidence of this happening? How does the mobile service team get access to all the parts and tools they'll need doing this? I'm not saying it's impossible, just that the logistics of this alone would make it very difficult IMO. "Hi, we're calling to co ordinate the repair of your 140,000 dollar vehicle, please come by Joe's body shop once all your parts show up, and we'll then send out the mobile tech to change out your damaged or broken parts". I'll pass on that.
> 
> 
> edit - OK, I finally stopped getting the rapid busy when hitting the "service" extension number, and got a live person in Calgary on the phone. She told me that the head of the Vancouver Tesla service center was there today, and was already conducting interviews, and that they had pulled in a lot of techs from other centers across Canada and the USA, and would keep the center fully manned until qualified replacements had passed their probationary periods (whatever that meant) and were fully certified Tesla techs. If that's the case, and it sticks, it'd go a long way in our specific case.



Lexus LC500 > Tesla

----------


## Xtrema

$35K Model 3 no more. Another change on price and options.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-our-vehicle-lineup

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/b...a-model-3.html

Interesting bit about leasing tho....



> Please note, customers who choose leasing over owning will not have the option to purchase their car at the end of the lease, because with full autonomy coming in the future via an over-the-air software update, we plan to use those vehicles in the Tesla ride-hailing network. Customers can visit tesla.com/3 now to lease a Model 3.

----------


## phreezee

You've probably seen it already.

----------


## ThePenIsMightier

> You've probably seen it already.



A SpaceX rocket thingy of theirs went kerBlewie, too!
I don't really see the spontaneous fires being legit issues but fracturing battery cases in accidents and exposing ANY car's lithium to oxygen should lead to some serious fires and fires that also don't respond to water worth a shit.

----------


## Tik-Tok

Haaamonnnd!

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## adam c

> A SpaceX rocket thingy of theirs went kerBlewie, too!
> I don't really see the spontaneous fires being legit issues but fracturing battery cases in accidents and exposing ANY car's lithium to oxygen should lead to some serious fires and fires that also don't respond to water worth a shit.



21st century ford pinto

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> You've probably seen it already.



That was just due to unauthorized charging station use, likely a Chinese knockoff. That or it was a metaphor for investor confidence.

----------


## rage2

> In other news,
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1RJ03I
> 
> FCA provided lifeline to Tesla to avoid EU fines.
> 
> Tesla sent out a feeler and on FCA took the offer.



10-Q is out today. Some interesting pieces. The FCA lifeline brought in $140m over next 3 years. Just like previous quarters, these credit sales is used to determine automotive margins. Demand for these are already dropping as other manufactures roll out their own EVs, so yes, these FCA were a lifeline. Their cash situation was pretty dire in Q1 so yes, this was a bigger cash lifeline than thought. One big problem here is if you remove credit sales as part of the equation, Q1 now shows a negative automotive gross margin, so they're losing money on each sale. Historically, when you calculate gross margins like everyone else, Tesla was already pretty low compared to traditional automakers. This has to do with the massive demand drop on S/X where margins were high, and the price drops on the 3 where margins were low, service and warranty going up, and not able to cut costs any faster.

Of course the stock is slightly up today lol.

edit - just like last quarter, depreciation looks to be outpacing capex again.  :crazy nut:

----------


## rage2

Broke under $200 this morning. Looks like retail investors are heavily buying the dip. Feel bad for Gestalt at this point, he went all in at $360 or something?

----------


## Xtrema

Is this the final months of Tesla? With Chinese trade war and disappointing Chinese sales numbers (they didn't even make it to top 10 EV sales in Apr in China), there is no way they can have cash or $360 to pay for the next bond maturity at $1.3B by Mar 2021.

Heck, Elon even said they may be out of cash again in 10 months and they just raised $2.2B.

----------


## Darkane

Probably a buyout. But who will buy them?

Introducing the all new General Motors Tesla!

----------


## killramos

FCA or Ford would be my guess

----------


## speedog

> Jealousy and ego with a sprinkle of insanity 
> 
> These guys ACTUALLY think they are smarter then Musk feom their quarterback chairs.
> 
> We are all in. Took tjis latest #fakenews cycle to almoat double our Tesla stock holdings. Moved some things around and bought abother 500 shares.
> 
> The new chip is legit and Tesla will go minimun $600 if it stays public, and as a long term fantasy will be aple in market cap.
> 
> See you haters when its over.



 
@Gestalt
 has been conspicuously absent from the forum this year. Not a bad tax write off I suppose, $16k to just over $10k now but remember you're all haters and know nothing.

- - - Updated - - -




> they totally are part of the reason musk is going private. watch theur interviews. haters.
> 
> nothing will come of this, if the sec pusruses this, nothing will happen. they let unbeleivable corruption happen, but tesla consdiering something that he has been for years is eveil, and cost no one but shorts antyhing, no insider trading, nop pump an ddump as Cramer pointed out. and he probably has funding. he turned down billions from the saudis becasue he didnt need it as Cramer pointed out.



Quoted just because 
@Gestalt
 knows.

----------


## Twin_Cam_Turbo

> Probably a buyout. But who will buy them?
> 
> Introducing the all new General Motors Tesla!



Please no.

----------


## benyl

> Probably a buyout. But who will buy them?
> 
> Introducing the all new General Motors Tesla!



Why would you buy them out? Wait for them to go chapter 11 and then buy up the IP for pennies on the dollar without all the debt.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

A private call with Adam Jonas (Morgan Stanley analyst, one of Tesla's biggest Wall Street supporters) leaked today - he's completely flipped his stance and now thinks Tesla may be headed for restructuring.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...te-call-2019-5

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

Thank goodness Gestalt wasn't a real person or they'd likely being joining them in the Bankruptcy line by August.

----------


## Gman.45

Go go gadget Vlias Cap fund (their Tesla short position is the 2nd largest segment of their fund). As much as I liked the Tesla S, and the tech, I like $ more.

----------


## rage2

> A private call with Adam Jonas (Morgan Stanley analyst, one of Tesla's biggest Wall Street supporters) leaked today - he's completely flipped his stance and now thinks Tesla may be headed for restructuring.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...te-call-2019-5



What’s hilarious is that their tune was different just 3 weeks ago when they were one of the underwriters. Not the first time that has happened. Still baffling that you could get away with that.

----------


## rx7boi

> @Gestalt
>  has been conspicuously absent from the forum this year. Not a bad tax write off I suppose, $16k to just over $10k now but remember you're all haters and know nothing.



JMO but I think he posts under the moniker of O&G now, mostly in the Short Term Investment thread.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> What’s hilarious is that their tune was different just 3 weeks ago when they were one of the underwriters. Not the first time that has happened. Still baffling that you could get away with that.



Analyst recommendations are such total bullshit. Most have major conflict of interest that isn't even well hidden.

----------


## killramos

In the context of all the bullshit surrounding Tesla, I don’t think analysts are even laying a competitive pile lol

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Gman.45

> House of cards... just like I've always said



Agreed. Look, I really, really like what they've done in terms of their cars and their tech, but the bottom line is no matter how brilliant an inventor you are (Musk), your company still has to adhere to sound business principals and ethics. Tesla has absolutely NOT done this, and it's a shame. IMO it's a perfect example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Another good article about the Adam Jonas reversal. Again, Vlias Cap (and others) has also been proven right after all the research and proof they put forward about Tesla's business model being a house of cards awaiting collapse (posted a bunch of links to all their research upon which their Tesla short was based). - https://www.thedrive.com/tech/28169/...omance-is-over

----------


## ExtraSlow

Hah, I love the concepts this company comes up with. Can't wait to see what the pickup truck actually looks like. 
https://electrek.co/2019/06/02/tesla...elon-musk/amp/



> We don’t want it to be really expensive. I think it got to start at less than $50,000 – it’s got to be like $49,000 starting price max. Ideally less. It just can’t be unaffordable. It’s got to be something that’s affordable. There will be versions of the truck that will be more expensive, but you’ve got to be able to get a really great truck for $49,000 or less.
> 
> It’s got to have incredible functionally from a load carrying standpoint, look amazing – but it won’t look like a normal truck. It’s going to look pretty sci-fi. That means that it’s not going to be for everyone- like if somebody just wants to have a truck that looks like trucks have looked like for the last 20 to 40 years, it’s probably isn’t for them. 
> 
> It’s going to be a truck that is more capable than other trucks. The goal is to be a better truck than a [Ford] F-150 in terms of truck-like functionality and be a better sports car than a standard [Porsche] 911. That’s the aspiration.

----------


## killramos

300,000lbs of towing capacity lol

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

Will be interesting if Rivian can stick to the previously announced timeline of assembly in October 2020 and delivery starting in December 2020. I'm a skeptic, so I'm guessing at least 6 months delay if they stick largely to the concept they've been showing. If they try to rivian-ize an F150 that'll take longer.

Concepts are fun, but I always think that the most important vehicle in a segment is the one you can buy.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

Test mules with different bodies are not even close to production vehicles. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for them, but let's not misrepresent where they are.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## ExtraSlow

Wonder how they've mated the Rivian "skateboard" to the F150 body. That's a pretty complex thing to do since that body was designed for conventional frame and drivetrain components. If they have a production-ready method to do that, I'm impressed. If it's prototype components, which was my assumption, then I stand by my description of them as test mules.

----------


## suntan

What they did is they took the Rivian truck and glued a Ford logo on the front.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

EV Truck will be even more niche than EV passenger car/suv. Since they are mostly only used in North America.

Also, Tesla is back above $200.

Looks like sales and delivery staff are getting bonuses if they push past delivery goal for June.

That said, China bullying Tesla has begun:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/426...ses-high-risks

----------


## Sugarphreak

....

----------


## rage2

The interesting thing for EV trucks is that there's a huge inconvenience/efficiency loss by parking outside especially in the winter. I don't know of any truck owners who park in their garage because of size, so there's a slightly different usage patterns there compared to an EV Sedan/SUV. It'd be interesting to see how that plays out once these trucks hit the market.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Maxt

A large portion of truck sales are to service people on call that can't have a vehicle on charge with limited range when you need to go now. I've been thinking about the application of the ev truck in my work. It takes less than 10 minutes to fuel my present truck and it has over 1000km's of range with full tool load and it's ready whenever I need it. Rivian is saying 644 Kim's on full charge, but they don't say under what conditions. For charging time, all I can find is 30 minutes to give 200 mile range extension. These ev guys, especially Tesla, need to realize that a lot of fleet truck accessories are universal so they shouldn't be deviating from what we know as standard truck dimensions. It will be interesting to see the towing and hauling tests show up to see how well they handle additional weight as well. I know on the job sites I have a hard enough time finding a plug for my cordless drill batteries, having to look for one for a truck during the work day would be added annoyance.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Xtrema

> I have a feeling towing is going to kill the range big time... these EV's are optimized for specific loads, suddenly adding more load to the motor would be tricky. It can be done with digital motors, but I wonder if they bothered.



Won't towing a 10,000lb trailer usually drop a 20mpg truck down to 8-10mpg? Why would EV be any different?

400miles of Rivian will be 200miles or less when towing. 

Then like Maxt said, it's going to get annoying topping up. 10min at a gas station vs 1hr of Rivian with 150kw charger, if they even exists on your route.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## JustinL

I've been thinking that an electric drive trailer might help that combo for towing. A flat deck trailer has a lot of space for batteries under the deck, and with a small motor it could help offset the added energy cost of towing and do it's own regenerative braking. The problem is obviously now you've got 2 things to charge instead of the one.

----------


## Disoblige

> I have a feeling towing is going to kill the range big time... these EV's are optimized for specific loads, suddenly adding more load to the motor would be tricky. It can be done with digital motors, but I wonder if they bothered.



What is a digital motor?

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## themack89

> Like a brush-less DC motor where operation can be finely controlled
> 
> I think Tesla was using AC induction (Nicola Tesla was all about AC, so I suppose that makes sense)... but I think they quietly switched to DC on the model 3. Every other manufacturer has pretty much gone the DC route.
> 
> Surprisingly there is a blog on Tesla's site that goes into a lot more detail without being heavily biased
> https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/ind...rs?redirect=no
> 
> EDIT: Yeah, Tesla switched over to digital motors for the model 3 after all
> https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/aut...or-design.html



I believe this is how most pumps in commercial/industrial buildings are controlled too, only they are called variable frequency drives (or VFDs).

Basic principle: rapidly changing the voltage/frequency of DC in such a way to imitate the sinusoidal pattern you'd see in AC.

----------


## Xtrema

> Like a brush-less DC motor where operation can be finely controlled
> 
> I think Tesla was using AC induction (Nicola Tesla was all about AC, so I suppose that makes sense)... but I think they quietly switched to DC on the model 3. Every other manufacturer has pretty much gone the DC route.
> 
> Surprisingly there is a blog on Tesla's site that goes into a lot more detail without being heavily biased
> https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/ind...rs?redirect=no
> 
> EDIT: Yeah, Tesla switched over to digital motors for the model 3 after all
> https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/aut...or-design.html




Model 3 and the next gen S/X are all getting PM motor in the rear. It's lighter so more range yielded as a result. It also serve as heat source for battery in winter, reducing need for a separate battery warmer.

Performance/AWD models will still get AC motor up front. 

EE has a good explanation of both motor's characteristics:



Base on this, I would assume any trucks Tesla make will be based on AC motors both for instant torque and Chinese rare metal export ban currently in place making it expensive for Tesla to build PM motors.

----------


## rage2

Tesla already upgraded the S/X with new permanent magnetic motors up front last month. Range extended, and 1/4 mile times for the S dropped to low 10s.

----------


## Darkane

> Tesla already upgraded the S/X with new permanent magnetic motors up front last month. Range extended, and 1/4 mile times for the S dropped to low 10s.



Low 10s? Damn man.

----------


## rage2

Was wrong, mid 10's. Still tho haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymsZ2Q3oUo

Thought I read a 10.3 somewhere, guess not.

----------


## supe

> House of cards... just like I've always said
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How are those big ol' balls of yours now after getting kicked so hard? HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAA
> 
> Attachment 86149



I've been in since 40 or 60 so I'm doing ok. How are yours over there on the sidelines?

Bought more at 204.

I think you don't fundamentally understand the meaning behind house of cards, unless you're referring to the TV show that lasted 6 seasons, but heck even Tesla is way beyond that.

----------


## rage2

I don’t think SP plays with Tesla stock. My guess is he was trolling Gestalt who went all in. 

I stopped playing in Q3, didn’t have the time to follow close enough to be comfortable. Dumped a bunch into NIO and lost 1/2 so far haha. Minor compared to gains made on TSLA.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## rage2

I think I would’ve done better with NIO if I had the time to follow it. New role at work has limited my stock research time to nothing. Was purely a sit and wait forever gamble.

----------


## phreezee

Is now the time to pick up NIO? News of trade talks going well is lifting the market today.

----------


## Xtrema

> Is now the time to pick up NIO? News of trade talks going well is lifting the market today.



Trade talks or not, NIO is going up in flames as often if not more than Tesla.

----------


## phreezee

^ tell me more  :Smilie:

----------


## Xtrema

> ^ tell me more



https://qz.com/1646684/chinas-orderi...sla-nio-fires/

----------


## phreezee

Haha, literal flames lol

From the same site, it seems the Chinese government won't let NIO fail https://qz.com/1630165/nio-the-elect...-from-beijing/

----------


## Xtrema

> Haha, literal flames lol
> 
> From the same site, it seems the Chinese government won't let NIO fail https://qz.com/1630165/nio-the-elect...-from-beijing/



NIO coverage from China is interesting. When they screw up, they always mentioned they are listed on NYSE. When they have good PR, they call it China's NIO.

Battery fire is not the only thing NIO is fighting, typical issue with start up companies.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/31/1...ffic-china-es8

China won't let EV fail, they see it as opportunity to unseat all of the world's current car makers and put Chinese brands on the main stage.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## killramos

To be fair Ford has the lifetime achievement award for combustible cars nailed down for perpetuity.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> To be fair Ford has the lifetime achievement award for combustible cars nailed down for perpetuity.



You are only as good as your last game.

----------


## phreezee

Well TSLA was up 7% yesterday from delivery news, and G20 sent NIO over $3. Gotta see NIO's June numbers.

----------


## suntan

> To be fair, there was 2 fires for Tesla and 2 fires for NIO that sparked this investigation by China
> 
> 
> 
> NIO - ES8 (Smoke)
> Tesla - Model S (Fire)
> NIO - ES8 (Fire)
> Tesla - Model S (Explosion)
> 
> ...



Gee it's almost like lithium likes to oxidize readily.

Lithium powered cars will be a disaster. Makes gasoline seem like harmless water.

----------


## phreezee

Inherent battery issues give NIO a design advantage since owners can swap batteries. I think the battery lease model is a good one, and if the battery technology improves they aren't stuck with the older batteries. I did enter a small position last week, but didn't take profits yesterday. Short squeeze was fully on and the volume and contracts signal that the bulls have taken over.

----------


## Xtrema

> Inherent battery issues give NIO a design advantage since owners can swap batteries. I think the battery lease model is a good one, and if the battery technology improves they aren't stuck with the older batteries. I did enter a small position last week, but didn't take profits yesterday. Short squeeze was fully on and the volume and contracts signal that the bulls have taken over.



Yeah I think Tesla ditch the battery swap idea because the potential of non Tesla cells get into their cars is very high. Just look at Samsung's issue with cheap Chinese batteries that burned their phones.

Eventually NIOs will be installed with failed cells from a 3rd party battery recycler and burn up.

----------


## rage2

I know this is the stock thread and not the car thread, but last nights price drops has the top Model S at $135k now. Cheaper than a similarly equipped E63S. Model 3 Performance at $75k (might even be a little less depending on when they make exchange rate adjustments). This is without the “full self driving” option which is worthless today and can be purchased later. Lease rates (S only) are terrible. Finance at 4.9 is like bank rate. Honestly at these prices, I’m tempted to live with the shortcomings than to go for the Taycan, which is going to be at least 50k more for the top performing model (base taycan estimated to start at 120k). 

Bringing back on topic, continuing to lower their ASP can’t be good for the bottom line. Who’s making bets in their portfolio for the Q2 financial results day? Haha

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## Stuart

> Sales are probably slowing down a lot as the hype wears off, so they need to trim the price back to get their volume up
> 
> Isn't there supposed to be a model Y or something coming out one of these years? It has been so long since the announcement now. 
> 
> Ditto on the semi... they are driving it around in parades, yet it isn't going to be done for production until the end of 2020? The fuck?



They just want to fit in with the other brands. How many years have they been testing the C8 Vette? Or the next RX7 that is always "almost here".

----------


## supe

> Sales are probably slowing down a lot as the hype wears off, so they need to trim the price back to get their volume up



The thing is prices aren't actually being trimmed much for the american consumer. The big price drops were timed with the US EV incentive being reduced. So for the US consumer the price is relatively even. This sucks for consumers in other markets (me), but thats the price you pay to be an early adopter.

I drove to edmonton the past weekend. Left my home full, arrived with ~30%, supercharged for $10 which lasted me the weekend. Supercharged again for $10 which got me back home. I love the supercharging network! V3 superchargers are starting to get installed which makes charging even better. In a couple weeks I'm going to Van/Kelowna which will be a better long distance test and next year aim to do the trip to California. I learned recently everyone who buys a Tesla gets a free tour of the Fremont factory, apparently its amazing.

----------


## Sugarphreak

...

----------


## phreezee

Bad ER today and took a big after hours tumble.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...184241081.html

----------


## speedog

At 7 years on it's current body style, isn't the model S due for a refresh?

----------


## rage2

> At 7 years on it's current body style, isn't the model S due for a refresh?



Tesla continuously refreshes throughout the year. They don't follow refresh/new model cycles like traditional manufacturers.

The last refresh (April this year) updated the front motor to the more efficient Model 3 motor and extended range to 600km. It could be tomorrow, it could be 5 years from now when we see body or interior refresh out of nowhere.

----------


## speedog

> Tesla continuously refreshes throughout the year. They don't follow refresh/new model cycles like traditional manufacturers.
> 
> The last refresh (April this year) updated the front motor to the more efficient Model 3 motor and extended range to 600km. It could be tomorrow, it could be 5 years from now when we see body or interior refresh out of nowhere.



Updated motors are not a style refresh.

----------


## killramos

They updated the style when the 3 was announced.

So long as idiots will keep paying top dollar for them why bother investing in a new design? They sell every one they make as it is.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> so long as they are spiralling towards insolvency why bother investing in a new design? .



ftfy

----------


## rage2

> They updated the style when the 3 was announced.
> 
> So long as idiots will keep paying top dollar for them why bother investing in a new design? They sell every one they make as it is.



Prices have dropped significantly, 200k to 135k in less than a year here in Canada for a loaded car. Elon also mentioned today it’s not a priority anymore because sales sucks on them. They’re selling every one they make because they’ve slowed down production on them. 3 and Y are the priorities now.

----------


## killramos

> Prices have dropped significantly, 200k to 135k in less than a year here in Canada for a loaded car. Elon also mentioned today it’s not a priority anymore because sales sucks on them. They’re selling every one they make because they’ve slowed down production on them. 3 and Y are the priorities now.



When I go on their website a loaded S is still over 150k. And a base S is still 6 figures. 

Sales only dropped when 3 was introduced. Massive cannibalization by the low margin 3.

----------


## triplep

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...city-charging/

I'd be pissed if I woke up with a Tesla on my front lawn/ garage pad and hooked into my wall outlet outside. I don't understand why they just couldn't top up at their friends place....

----------


## killramos

Tesla owners are the new NE dwellers

----------


## Xtrema

> So long as idiots will keep paying top dollar for them why bother investing in a new design? They sell every one they make as it is.



Also, there is no competition yet. Tesla is still the only shop where you can walk in and get an EV without long wait.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...city-charging/
> 
> I'd be pissed if I woke up with a Tesla on my front lawn/ garage pad and hooked into my wall outlet outside. I don't understand why they just couldn't top up at their friends place....



Because the battery was dead.

----------


## Gman.45

> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...city-charging/
> 
> I'd be pissed if I woke up with a Tesla on my front lawn/ garage pad and hooked into my wall outlet outside. I don't understand why they just couldn't top up at their friends place....



I'd have unplugged it and kept/hidden his cord. That or have an accident and run over the cord with my lawn mower.

----------


## Tik-Tok

Anyone know what's going on with Tesla Calgary. I live down the street from it, and have never seen so many deliveries on one week. The back lot is almost completely full. Did they finally get their production sorted out?

----------


## killramos

> Anyone know what's going on with Tesla Calgary. I live down the street from it, and have never seen so many deliveries on one week. The back lot is almost completely full. Did they finally get their production sorted out?



My guess? Last few days before the end of a quarter to try and make them look solvent  :ROFL!:

----------


## supe

> 



Notice how you're the only one laughing?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...191052868.html

All great news, everything is now ahead of schedule, positive free cash flow, surprise profits.

Stock up 17% AH, woohoo.

----------


## killramos

> Notice how you're the only one laughing?
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...191052868.html
> 
> All great news, everything is now ahead of schedule, positive free cash flow, surprise profits.
> 
> Stock up 17% AH, woohoo.



From your own link you haven’t read, really makes up for the 23.5% they have lost this year especially against a nearly 20% gain in the S&P




> Shares of Tesla were down 23.5% for the year-to-date through Wednesday’s close, versus a 19.5% gain in the S&P 500 (^GSPC).

----------


## supe

> From your own link you havent read, really makes up for the 23.5% they have lost this year especially against a nearly 20% gain in the S&P



I'm ok with the ytd, particularly when you look at the numbers, particularly FCF. I'm in this long term, have been since the beginning. Easy for you to joke about solvency sitting on the sidelines. 

Tesla Semi hitting the road next year, truck reveal should be next month, Franz recently said the Roadster should be better than what was revealed 'in every way'. European Giga should be announced soon and everything ahead of schedule which is new for Tesla.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Anyone know what's going on with Tesla Calgary. I live down the street from it, and have never seen so many deliveries on one week. The back lot is almost completely full. Did they finally get their production sorted out?



 
@benyl
 bought a bunch to stay on the charger because he didn't want to fork out for the 240V charger installation.

----------


## rage2

Welcome back supe.  :thumbs up:

----------


## supe

> Welcome back supe.



Thanks.

I'm sure for anyone following tesla this will hit the news outlets but there was some very interesting tidbits that were announced.

All model 3's will be getting a 5% power increase via an OTA update . This sounds crazy to me. 

Early access owners are reporting that true one pedal driving is already out which will make driving comfort even better. 

On the energy side, there should be a big solar roof announcement some time today. Elon time probably means next week. 

And for a recent update, Canada got the smart summon feature. The car is actually capable of driving on its own (in a limited setting and slow speeds). Its a crazy feeling to see it do it. It means to some small degree, FSD is here, we're in the future. I use the word capable because it definitely feels like a five year old driving it, its kind of scary, but I have confidence it will get better fast.

----------


## Xtrema

https://electricautonomy.ca/2019/10/...hibar-systems/

I think this flew under everyone's radar too. Since the purchase HiBar has wipe their battery tech off their web page and I assume it's now exclusive to Tesla.

Tesla's battery manufacturing still require partners, sounds like they are trying to absorb that into their own vertical and try not to rely on 3rd parties as much.

For now, seems like LG is the provider of cells for China's Gigafactory.

----------


## ExtraSlow

It would be super if they were consistently profitable, that would be great news for everyone honestly. I could see in a few years my family owning a pure EV, and I'd like Tesla to be around to choose from.

----------


## supe

https://www.motor1.com/reviews/37830...-3-comparison/

The new BMW 3 series as tested 20k more than the Model 3. The Tesla still comes out on top.

----------


## Manhattan

What in world was that cybertruck launch and the bulletproof glass? Elon makes me question his sanity sometimes.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> What in world was that cybertruck launch and the bulletproof glass? Elon makes me question his sanity sometimes.



Submitting a preorder once I decide on dual vs tri motor. Going to be tough to find matching truck nuts.

----------


## killramos

> Submitting a preorder once I decide on dual vs tri motor. Going to be tough to find matching truck nuts.



That truck demands some next level balls

----------


## racerocco

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/e...oured-vehicles

wonder how this would effect potential sales in BC? Granted a window that breaks when you throw a bearing at it is hardly armored

----------


## killramos

That’s not uncommon across a lot of places.

Presumably it can be shipped with standard glass to jurisdictions that don’t allow it.

----------


## racerocco

but the body is claimed to stop a bullet as well

----------


## killramos

I guess where that will matter is being careful on verbiage and documentation on whether or not it was designed to stop bullets or if it’s a happy coincidence.

It’s not illegal to accidentally be bullet proof haha.

And aside but a huge lol to the concept that owning something bullet proof is illegal. That logic has always eluded me.

----------


## Buster

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/oh...horribly-wrong

"This is what happens when you are surrounded by Yes Men."

Yup.

----------


## RedDawn

Tesla leads the way again. They made every truck design look outdated in one fell swoop and now have a branded look that's unmistakably Tesla.

Also, by doing the body in stainless steel, they've eliminated all the costly manufacturing / QA Processes needed for paint and stamping. Can now fold the car together like origami. This is the reason the price on this can be so low.

Everyone is laughing but Ford and GM are already thinking about how to copy this. Problem is that they can't without copying the looks since stainless only lends itself to flat pieces so they'd end up with something that looks just like the cybertruck.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Stainless can be bent and shaped as easily as any other steel or aluminium alloy.

----------


## dirtsniffer

The last stainless steel vehicle turned out great. No worries there

----------


## ercchry

> The last stainless steel vehicle turned out great. No worries there



Would watch Back to the Future reboot with cyber truck!  :ROFL!:

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Tesla leads the way again. They made every truck design look outdated in one fell swoop and now have a branded look that's unmistakably Tesla.
> 
> Also, by doing the body in stainless steel, they've eliminated all the costly manufacturing / QA Processes needed for paint and stamping. Can now fold the car together like origami. This is the reason the price on this can be so low.
> 
> Everyone is laughing but Ford and GM are already thinking about how to copy this. Problem is that they can't without copying the looks since stainless only lends itself to flat pieces so they'd end up with something that looks just like the cybertruck.



Is this a serious post? I can't actually tell.

----------


## lilmira

Is this real life?

----------


## killramos

> Is this real life?



No. It’s really just fantasy.

----------


## Manhattan

Serious question- if this is supposed to be a mass produced pick up truck as its billed how safe will smaller compact vehicles like the Prius fare against it in an accident? Smaller vehicles already don't do well against SUVs. Now we're talking about basically an armored vehicle on the streets.

----------


## revelations

> https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/oh...horribly-wrong
> 
> "This is what happens when you are surrounded by Yes Men."
> 
> Yup.



I still want to think its a joke - but seeing how nervous he was after the whole window shatter debacle, it wasnt. 


Here are some rendering of what it SHOULD have looked like - a vehicle that can be drawn on MS paint by a 7 year old is not appealing. 

A badass 'ute' street truck would have been cool. 





- - - Updated - - -




> Serious question- if this is supposed to be a mass produced pick up truck as its billed how safe will smaller compact vehicles like the Prius fare against it in an accident? Smaller vehicles already don't do well against SUVs. Now we're talking about basically an armored vehicle on the streets.



As long as it meets bumper height requirements, there should be no problems.

----------


## 04Terminator

It's ugly as hell. I can't see anyone buying that.

Well, drug runners might, and the hail chasers won't like it much.

- - - Updated - - -




> Serious question- if this is supposed to be a mass produced pick up truck as its billed how safe will smaller compact vehicles like the Prius fare against it in an accident? Smaller vehicles already don't do well against SUVs. Now we're talking about basically an armored vehicle on the streets.



This is true. But for the compensating guys that buy trucks for the size, a good promot video would be running the Tesla straight head on into an F150.  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## Xtrema



----------


## pheoxs

> Serious question- if this is supposed to be a mass produced pick up truck as its billed how safe will smaller compact vehicles like the Prius fare against it in an accident? Smaller vehicles already don't do well against SUVs. Now we're talking about basically an armored vehicle on the streets.



Yeah, I fail to see how this is legal for sale in Canada. Isn't there rules on low speed front collisions? Typical bumpers bend at least a bit to absorb some of the impact. Stainless aint going to bend worth shit.

----------


## ThePenIsMightier

> Yeah, I fail to see how this is legal for sale in Canada. Isn't there rules on low speed front collisions? Typical bumpers bend at least a bit to absorb some of the impact. Stainless aint going to bend worth shit.



And Europe! Some countries have rules where a bicyclist needs to have a reasonable chance of survival if struck by a vehicle. Denmark for example will not let you on the road if there is rust that could create a cutting surface if bent by a Stricken Greta. 
This thing looks like it would laser slice a bicyclist!

- - - Updated - - -




> 



You win all internet for 11/22/2019!

----------


## 04Terminator

> Yeah, I fail to see how this is legal for sale in Canada. Isn't there rules on low speed front collisions? Typical bumpers bend at least a bit to absorb some of the impact. Stainless aint going to bend worth shit.



No, not bend. Push back, the absorbers behind the bumper are supposed to do the work.

I can't see Canada OR the US allowing the sale of a bulletproof car with AWD and 3 motors lol. When the GNX came out, the FBI bought the remaining inventory. Maybe that's what he's hoping for.

Edit,... Here is the a story of the GNX although a bit different from how I remember it. https://www.streetmusclemag.com/news...and-nationals/

----------


## 04Terminator

250,000 pre orders on a truck at least 3 years away.

I guess I was wrong

----------


## jacky4566

The pre-orders don't mean anything. Its $100 fully refundable. 

What I want to know is how Tesla intends to pass pedestrian safety requirements. This thing is going to cut people in half. 

Still badass and I want one.

----------


## benyl

> The pre-orders don't mean anything. Its $100 fully refundable. 
> 
> What I want to know is how Tesla intends to pass pedestrian safety requirements. This thing is going to cut people in half. 
> 
> Still badass and I want one.



I think 75% of those preorders will be fulfilled. Many are from current Tesla owner that have more than one Tesla already.

----------


## Xtrema

> 250,000 pre orders on a truck at least 3 years away.
> 
> I guess I was wrong



Model 3 had 500,000+ pre order at $1000.

CT has 250,000 pre order at $100.

Consider Tesla has only delivered 471,000 Model 3 so far, and sales has been dropping, Even 75% commitment is generous as a lot of those 500K didn't even showed up.

$100 pre order isn't that bad of commitment for flippers. Much like those iphones from a decade ago.

Now I think 3 year time frame is generous, I'm thinking more like 5-6 years.
- Fremont is already packed to deliver Model Y for the next few years. How many more "tents" can they have?
- New factory has not break ground yet. It took China almost 1 year to get GF3 ready with Chinese loans. I don't think North America can do it that quick.
- Panasonic already ended expansion at GF1. Tesla is now out of expending capacity for batteries. Fremont consumes about 28Gwh/year delivering 400k cars. GF1 can deliver about 35Gwh at end of 2019. That's roughly another 100k vehicle per year. 50k if Cybertruck uses 2x the battery as Model 3.
- The truck is concept. Who knows what kind of regulatory hurdle they have to build something that different.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> The truck is concept. Who knows what kind of regulatory hurdle they have to build something that different.



I'm excited to see what they put out for a truck design when they are serious about building one. This concept will probably have some big tweaks before it's ready for production. Could be very cool, and I do admire anyone who puts out a polarizing design. Too much sameness in the world today.

----------


## supe

TSLA just cleared $420, funding secured.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> TSLA just cleared $420, funding secured.



Icwydt

----------


## 04Terminator

> TSLA just cleared $420, funding secured.



TSLA doomsayers have gone from annoying, to pathetic over the years.

"Bankruptcy imminent".  :ROFL!:   :ROFL!:

----------


## supe

> TSLA doomsayers have gone from annoying, to pathetic over the years.
> 
> "Bankruptcy imminent".



Sugar seems to be oddly MIA, I wonder if its from holding his breath on his house of cards thesis. 

Stock crossed $450 for a bit this morning.

----------


## rage2

> Sugar seems to be oddly MIA, I wonder if its from holding his breath on his house of cards thesis. 
> 
> Stock crossed $450 for a bit this morning.



To be fair, nobody expected an unlimited amount of funding, and that it would stop or slow down at some point. That’s where I was wrong in the beginning. There’s still resistance to growth once subsidies run out, but if Tesla can continue holding on and getting funding until EVs reach critical mass, they’ll make it. 

The valuation is still fucking bonkers, priced to when EVs become critical mass.

----------


## Xtrema



----------


## killramos

https://insideevs.com/news/392372/us...rough-q4-2019/

Some good graphs on US Tesla sales with how 19 compared to 18, notably the substantial drop in their most profitable Model S and X sales.

----------


## Super_Geo

> https://insideevs.com/news/392372/us...rough-q4-2019/
> 
> Some good graphs on US Tesla sales with how 19 compared to 18, notably the substantial drop in their most profitable Model S and X sales.



But in the same time, world wide sales took off, and battery costs dropped ~15%.

----------


## supe

> https://insideevs.com/news/392372/us...rough-q4-2019/
> 
> Some good graphs on US Tesla sales with how 19 compared to 18, notably the substantial drop in their most profitable Model S and X sales.



Musk hinted at the last call that S & X are not meaningful to the company bottom line anymore, likely keeping them around to showcase the high end new tech like the plaid drive train coming out. 

Stock price currently at 533  :Smilie: 

Serious question, should I be taking profits?

----------


## supe

Here is a fun headline. 

Mercedes/BMW Ride-Hailing Group “Free Now” Buys 60 Tesla Automobiles

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/09...a-automobiles/

Pretty much acknowledgement from the big German auto that Tesla's are worth the money.

----------


## benyl

> Pretty much acknowledgement from the big German auto that Tesla's are worth the money.



I think they are for my uses. bought two. haha.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Stock price currently at 533  Serious question, should I be taking profits?



Never a bad idea to take profits. That's all I know about stocks.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Musk hinted at the last call that S & X are not meaningful to the company bottom line anymore, likely keeping them around to showcase the high end new tech like the plaid drive train coming out. 
> 
> Stock price currently at 533 
> 
> Serious question, should I be taking profits?



That's likely a good thing.

And fuck yes you should be taking profits. If you can pull out a sizable secured profit and then keep playing the game to make more money you would be crazy not to. Bird in the hand and such.

----------


## Xtrema

» Click image for larger version

----------


## killramos

https://insideevs.com/news/392913/te...y-service/amp/

Interesting article, a lot of conjecture but there are some indications Tesla is reclassify warranty repairs as goodwill in order to try and dodge lemon laws and NHTSA mandated recalls for systemic problems.

Also back to being the number one most shorted stock in America.

----------


## supe

Stock up over $580 today.

Tesla just won the legal battle against shit dealer networks in Michigan = more sales. This is likely going to be a domino affect for the rest of the states resisting direct sales. 
https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/22/2...wsuit-reversal

Tesla Model Y sales are imminent. Customers are currently being called to prep for delivery.

China factory is coming online nicely. Hard to believe they broke ground only a year ago.

----------


## benyl

Toma must be rolling in dough.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Anyone who can break/disrupt the dealer cartels will be doing consumers of all brands a huge favour. I think well more than half the issues people have with their vehicles come from anti-competitive dealer practices. 
I support Tesla in this. 

I still don't understand the stock price, but anyone who follows my investment advice will know I don't understand most stock prices.

----------


## Xtrema

> I still don't understand the stock price, but anyone who follows my investment advice will know I don't understand most stock prices.



Y delivery is full 6 month from original estimate. Chinese Model 3s are not built in a tent and first few units are seems better made than Fremont units.

Elon seems to have done great PR in China that market alone may sustain the business and more.

----------


## Xtrema

Hot damn, Tesla made $8M in Q4 and after market is trading at $650.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Now I can finally afford bootlegged N95 masks on Kijiji.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Now I can finally afford bootlegged N95 masks on Kijiji.



Made in Wuhan.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> Hot damn, Tesla made $8M in Q4 and after market is trading at $650.



$862M lost on the year and an $8M one-quarter profit drives the stock to the moon. Bananas!

----------


## ExtraSlow

> $862M lost on the year and an $8M one-quarter profit drives the stock to the moon. Bananas!



Stuff like this is why I can't be involved in choosing stocks to invest in. I mean good for anyone who invested, but I don't understand this on any level.

----------


## killramos

> Stuff like this is why I can't be involved in choosing stocks to invest in. I mean good for anyone who invested, but I don't understand this on any level.



No one does, if they did they wouldn’t do it.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I am going to upgrade my garburator while I am at it too.

----------


## Stuart

Some reasons for the rise appear to be from actually having cashflow and not relying on selling additional shares to get by.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/31/inves...nch/index.html

----------


## Xtrema

> Some reasons for the rise appear to be from actually having cashflow and not relying on selling additional shares to get by.
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/31/inves...nch/index.html



$1000 in next 12 months, who's staying for the ride?

And if Tesla does hit that, (close to $200B Market Cap), which traditional manufacturer/supplier be a value pick for them to buy existing manufacturing space? Magna? FCA+PSA?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Now you have jinxed it. Good going.

----------


## taemo

TSLA the new bitcoin?

congrats to those that made some nice gains. i thought about buying some when it was hovering around 250 last year but didnt want to gamble

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> TSLA the new bitcoin?
> 
> congrats to those that made some nice gains. i thought about buying some when it was hovering around 250 last year but didnt want to gamble



Stop talking about it! Nothing to see here. Ctrl alt del thread.

----------


## benyl

> $1000 in next 12 months, who's staying for the ride?
> 
> And if Tesla does hit that, (close to $200B Market Cap), which traditional manufacturer/supplier be a value pick for them to buy existing manufacturing space? Magna? FCA+PSA?



Why would they buy when they can build factories in China in less than a year and pump out cars right away?

Gigafactory 4 or whatever is breaking ground in Germany, so Magna in Austria doesn't make sense.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Yeah, buying existing factories is crazy. Get old equipment and angry unions.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

And subpar cafeteria offerings.

----------


## Xtrema

> Yeah, buying existing factories is crazy. Get old equipment and angry unions.



May be not to that scale but it can still disrupt by buying up support industry around them.

Case: Grohmann
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-kill...target-halved/




> Mercedes-Benz had hired Grohmann to build batteries for the company’s planned electric fleet. After Grohmann’s founder, Klaus Grohmann and Tesla CEO Elon Musk had a disagreement on how much involvement the battery automation company would have with Mercedes Benz, Musk formally removed Grohmann from his position. The company is now known as Tesla Grohmann Automation.



Elon effectively delayed EQC.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Elon effectively delayed EQC.



Untrue! EQC is still scheduled at half capacity.

----------


## suntan

It's just a short squeeze.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> It's just a short squeeze.



That's what she said...at 400.

----------


## Kobe

> Stuff like this is why I can't be involved in choosing stocks to invest in. I mean good for anyone who invested, but I don't understand this on any level.



Hope so! So I can short this, goal is $1,090usd before getting in on my short...






> $862M lost on the year and an $8M one-quarter profit drives the stock to the moon. Bananas!



*Cough* Bubbles *Cough*

*Cough* Apple *Cough*




> That's what she said...at 400.




I dunno my short Squeeze indicators showed it going to $400 

» Click image for larger version

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Why would they buy when they can build factories in China in less than a year and pump out cars right away?



I love that the environmental impact irony of this is lost on the "green" champions of electric cars.

----------


## benyl

> I love that the environmental impact irony of this is lost on the "green" champions of electric cars.



Not sure if you are suggesting that I am a "green" champion. I've always said that saving the environment is not why I drive an electric car. I'm proud to burn coal and nat gas to power my car! haha.

----------


## riander5

China in bed with musk pumping the stock to the moon. I wonder when it will end

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Not sure if you are suggesting that I am a "green" champion. I've always said that saving the environment is not why I drive an electric car. I'm proud to burn coal and nat gas to power my car! haha.



Oh no, not at all. Just in general I find it amusing  :Smilie:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Not sure if you are suggesting that I am a "green" champion. I've always said that saving the environment is not why I drive an electric car. I'm proud to burn coal and nat gas to power my car! haha.



You are totally a closet green champion. I bet you print double sided and compost too.

----------


## birdman86

> snip
> 
> » Click image for larger version



What platform is that?

----------


## FunWheelDrive

Trading View in Dark Mode

----------


## supe

F'n bonkers. Stock cleared 900 a few times today.

Apparently something people aren't talking about is that Tesla has huge option hedge calls against the convertible notes worth billions in cash because of this run-up. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvest...edges_and_its/

Obviously there must be short covering/squeeze but also institutional buying. 

A few huge catalysts coming up including SPY inclusion, battery investment day, model Y sales and more....

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> F'n bonkers. Stock cleared 900 a few times today.
> 
> Apparently something people aren't talking about is that Tesla has huge option hedge calls against the convertible notes worth billions in cash because of this run-up. 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvest...edges_and_its/
> 
> Obviously there must be short covering/squeeze but also institutional buying. 
> 
> A few huge catalysts coming up including SPY inclusion, battery investment day, model Y sales and more....



Please tell us you're cashing in on some of these spikes, I sure hope so!

----------


## revelations

> TSLA the new bitcoin?
> 
> congrats to those that made some nice gains. i thought about buying some when it was hovering around 250 last year but didnt want to gamble



Tesla is DEFINITELY the new bitcoin in many ways - they were 'supposed' to go bankrupt (BTC was 'supposed' to go to 0). 

With parabolic gains, its probably going to push up to 1000 or slightly above (blowout) and then crash hard.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Hodl

----------


## pheoxs

Down 15% today, curious how far she'll go.

----------


## revelations

> Down 15% today, curious how far she'll go.



Standard pull back during a run up. Happened with BTC the same. 

If this freak show is a serious bubble, it should continue on past 1000.

----------


## Kobe

> Standard pull back during a run up. Happened with BTC the same. 
> 
> If this freak show is a serious bubble, it should continue on past 1000.



I reallly don't see it going up, this is not a pull back there is just no way, pullbacks take time not get dumped. 

I think all the short sellers got fucked and had 2 buy to get out of positions and it inflated the price.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Hodor

----------


## benyl

bet the 420 Saudi's feel dumb for selling out so soon. rumour is they sold right before the run.

----------


## rage2

> I think all the short sellers got fucked and had 2 buy to get out of positions and it inflated the price.



Negative. Short interest didn't change enough. FOMO YOLO.

Sauce: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1ZY2Y2

The article even has an author's name.

----------


## msommers

Buying Tesla stock is straight up gambling. Dot-com-esque...

Ryde or Die

----------


## Kobe

> Negative. Short interest didn't change enough. FOMO YOLO.
> 
> Sauce: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1ZY2Y2
> 
> The article even has an author's name.



Interesting, I do love how Tesla "sold" their trucks for $100 deposit for interest free loans but I really only see about 1% of the people that purchased those trucks to actually buy them. 

I love Tesla but this seems like speculation then and I've really stopped believing in speculation as that has driven the stock markets in the last year, over and over. I got mixed feelings about Tesla and I think stock can easily be over $1,000 in years time and be worth it. There is no fucken way in hell I'd buy it right now though.

----------


## bjstare

> Interesting, I do love how Tesla "sold" their trucks for $100 deposit for interest free loans but I really only see about 1% of the people that purchased those trucks to actually buy them.



It's a moot point. Those trucks are vaporware. There's no way they get made (at least not in anything close to the form factor that we've seen).

----------


## supe

> It's a moot point. Those trucks are vaporware. There's no way they get made (at least not in anything close to the form factor that we've seen).



Want to make a friendly bet?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Want to make a friendly bet?



Friendly bets are pointless. The interesting bets are all hostile.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Things not going smoothly for the German gigafactory: 
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51525673

----------


## Darkane

> Things not going smoothly for the German gigafactory: 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51525673



No. But Tesla official S numbers up to 390mi range. X up to 351. 

Is that “enough” EV range now??

----------


## ExtraSlow

> No. But Tesla official S numbers up to 390mi range. X up to 351. 
> 
> Is that “enough” EV range now??



I'ts been enough for me for a while now. And seems like the "market" agrees even if the internet does not.

----------


## mr2mike

> Things not going smoothly for the German gigafactory: 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51525673



Just a radar blip. 
Enviro trolls are on to the French ski hill using helicopters to bring snow in to the resort.

----------


## ercchry

Wtf is happening with this company! 40% gain in the last 5 days, 13.5% today, another 4.5% AH and no sign of stopping all based on what? Beating deliveries by 7k units??

----------


## rage2

> Wtf is happening with this company! 40% gain in the last 5 days, 13.5% today, another 4.5% AH and no sign of stopping all based on what? Beating deliveries by 7k units??



It’s definitely mind boggling. There’s no way retail investors can prop it up that much.

----------


## Darell_n

It’s toilet paper hoarding only with Tesla stock.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

New product line released. Best selling shorts in the universe.

----------


## Xtrema

> Wtf is happening with this company! 40% gain in the last 5 days, 13.5% today, another 4.5% AH and no sign of stopping all based on what? Beating deliveries by 7k units??



Their delivery numbers are good under a mostly locked down Q2 where all other manufacturers suffered. $1400 now.

https://electrek.co/2020/07/07/tesla...ec-settlement/




> At yesterday’s close, Musk’s $20 million worth of Tesla shares that he bought to ‘unofficially’ pay off Tesla’s part of the SEC fine is now worth over $97 million (Thanks to Tyler Hillard for pointing this out to me).
> 
> It means that after his own fine, Musk ended up making over $50 million from the SEC settlement.
> 
> Over the last few days, the CEO has been taunting the SEC, which he calls the Short Enrichment Commission, and even said that he plans to send the agency Tesla’s new short shorts – a product that solely exists to taunt people betting against Tesla.

----------


## riander5

> Their delivery numbers are good under a mostly locked down Q2 where all other manufacturers suffered. $1400 now.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2020/07/07/tesla...ec-settlement/



Are you seriously trying to justify a 40% price increase based off decent quarantine numbers?

----------


## ercchry

> Are you seriously trying to justify a 40% price increase based off decent quarantine numbers?



What? Adding the market cap of GM day after day doesn’t make sense???  :ROFL!:

----------


## rage2

I miss 
@supe
, he usually chimes in when Tesla is on a roll. Good on him, he got in really early and stayed in.

Was it 
@Gestalt
 that went all in at 380? Good on him too.

----------


## Xtrema

> Are you seriously trying to justify a 40% price increase based off decent quarantine numbers?



Does any numbers from wall street make sense any more?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I thought a lot of you all made fun of supe for being bullish on Tesla?

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> I thought a lot of you all made fun of supe for being bullish on Tesla?



I've always made fun of Tesla but never of anyone who made money on it. Or even of Musk, I think he's a fucking genius. I just think the cars are shitty. But he keeps pulling it off and seems to be the only person in the world who can continue to conjure up fake money faster than the Government and that's truly amazing.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> I've always made fun of Tesla but never of anyone who made money on it. Or even of Musk, I think he's a fucking genius. I just think the cars are shitty. But he keeps pulling it off and seems to be the only person in the world who can continue to conjure up fake money faster than the Government and that's truly amazing.



But the short shorts are s3xy. You can find them in the Men's Apparel section of the website. I ordered a pair with a trucker hat to match. I can't wait to model it for you guys.

----------


## rage2

> I thought a lot of you all made fun of supe for being bullish on Tesla?



I don't think anyone ever made fun of him. It was simply a difference of opinion on valuation and profitability of Tesla to obtain such a valuation. It still makes sense to me, but supe was 100% right haha.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Alright. I will give you guys the deetz after mom's nap time so you don't all go out and buy silly options on this thing.

----------


## supe

> I don't think anyone ever made fun of him. It was simply a difference of opinion on valuation and profitability of Tesla to obtain such a valuation. It still makes sense to me, but supe was 100% right haha.



Wow the ultimate validation  :Smilie: 

I actually bought more at 950, kind of saw the writing on the wall that they are having a better than expected quarter. I've made a a couple of Tesla's now. If I didn't get laid off I would have ordered a Y for the wife. 

And yes I bought the short shorts  :ROFL!:

----------


## Buster

> I don't think anyone ever made fun of him. It was simply a difference of opinion on valuation and profitability of Tesla to obtain such a valuation. It still makes sense to me, but supe was 100% right haha.



This.

Tesla is just tulips.

When Hertz is bankrupt and gets bid up, it just shows that Tesla's valuation is meaningless regardless of the number.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Wow the ultimate validation 
> 
> I actually bought more at 950, kind of saw the writing on the wall that they are having a better than expected quarter. I've made a a couple of Tesla's now. If I didn't get laid off I would have ordered a Y for the wife. 
> 
> And yes I bought the short shorts



I commend you on 1) the balls to make this bet, 2) being right and 3) the short shorts.

----------


## ercchry

Today was kinda flat... hype money ended up in Walmart  :ROFL!:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Wow the ultimate validation 
> 
> I actually bought more at 950, kind of saw the writing on the wall that they are having a better than expected quarter. I've made a a couple of Tesla's now. If I didn't get laid off I would have ordered a Y for the wife. 
> 
> And yes I bought the short shorts



Want to buy my 3 
@supe
? It's red so both your wife and her boyfriend would love it. Super good deal just for you  :Smilie:  :Smilie:  :Smilie: 

- - - Updated - - -




> Today was kinda flat... hype money ended up in Walmart



Yeah. You should probably sell some calls on this hype. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ercchry

> Want to buy my 3 
> @supe
> ? Super good deal just for you 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. You should probably sell some calls on this hype.



Everyone knows you write puts, cause stonks only go up  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Everyone knows you write puts, cause stonks only go up



You so good at this.  :Smilie:  You should teach everyone how to make tendies.

----------


## ercchry

> You so good at this.  You should teach everyone how to make tendies.



You never shared you TSLA DD... don’t worry, I got you:




> Hey guys. Keep loading up on $TSLA calls, because at this rate, they're only going to go up.
> 
> There are two huge reasons; one is based on real evidence, the other is my autistic brain figuring out Elon's 2000 IQ play.
> 
> Number one, and the obvious reason $TSLA is going up at this rate, is due to Elon's recent bonus deal.
> 
> Elon will be awarded a 55.8 billion bonus should the company reach the 650 billion mark within the next 10 years (as well as other set conditions). This plan was originally started in 2018 I believe, so he's just being aggressive and trying to fulfill this duty.
> 
> The second, 3000 IQ play that Elon is doing right now is YUGE.
> ...

----------


## rage2

> Wow the ultimate validation 
> 
> I actually bought more at 950, kind of saw the writing on the wall that they are having a better than expected quarter. I've made a a couple of Tesla's now. If I didn't get laid off I would have ordered a Y for the wife. 
> 
> And yes I bought the short shorts



I meant to say it doesn't make sense to me haha. Nice to see you again supe. I miss our banter in this thread. Congrats on the run. I got out long ago.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Alright mofos, my mom is at Tai Chi and she left the internet on - meaning that I have 30 minutes to write this among other stuff. 

I don't post a lot here because I like to leave it for the smart people, but I do clean Haskayne toilets regularly thus I hear a lot of great financial advice so let me break down why you shouldn't short Tesla. But if you want to listen to me, regurgitating the discussions between two professors while they lay down some logs, and not do your own due diligence...you are probably dumber than the goofball who...ahh fuck nevermind I don't have time for this.

1) You cannot value Tesla as a car company. It is an amalgation of probably 8 or 10 tech companies staffed with some of the best engineers and scientists in the world. Tesla and SpaceX are where the top graduates want to work at. Valuing them as a car company is like valuing Amazon as a bookstore, Netflix as a mail order DVD company, and Domino's as a pizza company. Don't be silly - these are all disruptors and they all come with a lot of controversy while the public figures out what to call them.

2) The world is shifting to EV. Forget redneck oil country - think of all the places in the world where gasoline is expensive and pollution abundant. The shutdowns from COVID19 has made people realize that they want cleaner air. There are also a fuckton of subsidies on EVs in some states and several countries.

3) Q2 deliveries beat estimates more than your drunk dad beat you. Q1 and Q2 was going to be the toughest quarters for the year. They eaked out a surprise profit in Q1 and smashed estimates in Q2. During C19 no less! This is very significant - more on this later.

4) They make almost all of their own shit. They are the largest consumers of batteries in the world and their partnerships allow them to produce these batteries. So much that competitors such as VFAG had trouble getting a reliable source. They also began making their own chips (something Apple is starting to do).

5) They make good shit. Their acquisitions of companies such as CATL, SilLion, that funky design studio in Berlin that was designing shit for MB and is going to be making the vaccine machine, etc all bring in good patents and knowledge. Make no mistake - Tesla cuck'd MB. Project Roadrunner is up and running where they're going to make a million mile battery. Why do they need a battery that lasts many times longer than a car?

6) Virtual power plants. Not only do they have fucking solar, they have approvals and the technology to store that energy and create virtual power plants to sell the energy back to the grid. The idea is that your vehicle could end up being a storage point in addition to the Powerwalls. The first part is already in use in South Australia. California and Nevada are going to be nice markets. Basically anywhere that's hotter than your asshole after spicy wing night.

7) The cars are pretty fun to drive for the price point. See closet Tesla fan - Benyl. Maintenance costs on the cars are minimal. 

8) Ridesharing, ride hailing, autonomous driving - BMW and MB are Level 3 autonomous research bros no more. No one knows why but it is probably due to lack of data. Teslas log an insane amount of data for analysis. No one else comes close. Waymo seems like it could work, but who wants to drive around with a big ass testicle on the roof their car? They are still pretty far due to lack of data points and also come with inherent weaknesses.

9) Semi - this shit is in production. Forget NKLA. That's BS. Production is shifting to Semis after the Y and they have the damn infrastructure to follow up. This is a massive market with 950,000 trucks sold annually.

10) Infrastructure - who else has the charging infrastructure that can match? 

11) Brand recognition and fan bois - What does Tom Brady drive to nail his Gisele's best friend? A Model S P100D. Rogan's a fanboi. Drake. Ye. Yanni. The T has as much brand recognition as Apple without having to make an embarassing Bondi Blue iMac.

12) S&P 500 inclusion. They need to show a GAAP profit in Q2 to be eligible for S&P500 inclusion. What's the big donkey dick deal, ercchry Jordan Belfort Jr asks? It's a fucking big deal. Tesla should slot in at around the 14th largest company in the index, right by Intel. This means that all S&P500 ETFs will have to purchase Tesla shares at around the same time. 1% of perhaps 10 trillion dollars worth of ETFs representing the S&P works out to be about 70 million shares of Tesla. Let's presume that the good Finance 101 professor's sharts drowned out the important bits of the Econ 433 professor's arguments and the real number is 35 million shares. That's not too bad ercchry thinks. 35 mill...he makes that in 3 strangles and an iron penis. Well, it's 35 million shares. Out of around 145 million shares of free float. That's more significant than your stepmom's fake tits.

There are plenty more reasons but I am sure that I am just wasting my time with the smart asses here. Thought I would at least share some of my learnings with the rest of you all. Mom's back. I hope this Boss key works.

- - - Updated - - -




> You never shared you TSLA DD... don’t worry, I got you:



You are so smart. Please post some screen shots of you selling calls on Tesla tomorrow. Oh wait - you are not allowed to write options on your training wheels account. Even my mom could do that and she rocks a Startec flip phone.

----------


## Buster



----------


## Darkane

:ROFL!:  TRJ has amazing posts

That is all.

----------


## killramos

> Alright mofos, my mom is at Tai Chi and she left the internet on - meaning that I have 30 minutes to write this among other stuff. 
> 
> I don't post a lot here because I like to leave it for the smart people, but I do clean Haskayne toilets regularly so I hear a lot of great financial advice so let me break down why you shouldn't short Tesla. But if you want to listen to me, regurgitating the discussions between two professors while they lay down some logs, and not do your own due diligence...you are probably dumber than the goofball who...ahh fuck nevermind I don't have time for this.
> 
> 1) You cannot value Tesla as a car company. It is an amalgation of probably 8 or 10 tech companies staffed with some of the best engineers and scientists in the world. Tesla and SpaceX are where the top graduates want to work at. Valuing them as a car company is like valuing Amazon as a bookstore, Netflix as a mail order DVD company, and Domino's as a pizza company. Don't be silly - these are all disruptors and they all come with a lot of controversy while the public figures out what to call them.
> 
> 2) The world is shifting to EV. Forget redneck oil country - think of all the places in the world where gasoline is expensive and pollution abundant. The shutdowns from COVID19 has made people realize that they want cleaner air. There are also a fuckton of subsidies on EVs in some states and several countries.
> 
> 3) Q2 deliveries beat estimates more than your drunk dad beat you. Q1 and Q2 was going to be the toughest quarters for the year. They eaked out a surprise profit in Q1 and smashed estimates in Q2. During C19 no less! This is very significant - more on this later.
> ...



I think you went from tendies to full buckets of chicken with that one

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Mom insisted on going to the pharmacist to get a C19 test after "accidentally" making out with her Tai Chi instructor so I guess I have a little bit of free time between this thankless shit and watching Amber Brkich curb stomp some young buck on Survivor 40.

13) Cybertruck - this shit is B-A-N-A-N-A-S. Its tenure at the Petersen museum already got extended due to popular demand. Ever seen the GMC Sierra in that museum? People love this shit. The popo loves this shit, with departments reporting that the payback period for their Tesla vehicles were 25-40% shorter than anticipated. The redneck militia loves this shit and the Taliban probably needs to replace some of the Hiluxes. There are already something like 700k of reservations. That is a lot - even if a quarter of the people show up with their tendies, that's what...a couple of years of production?

14) States are tripping over themselves offering incentives for Tesla to build a factory there. See Tulsa, Austin, and probably Saskatoon. The next Terafactory is going to be "YUGE".

15) Shanghai factory was completed in 168 days. That's a record for a large construction. The Berlin factory is looking to come close - even without the communist comrades and lower restrictions on their side. Building in Germany was the smart thing to do. If they can survive the brand loyalty there, they will have no trouble with the rest of Europe. Keep in mind that German families are fiercely loyal to their brands. Shanghai giga is already building a mysterious expansion - some say it's for the cybertruck, some say it's for the upcoming Model 2. All I know is that it's not the Stig.

16) Model Y is fucking awesome. See the Munro tear down. The guy almost cracked a smile for the Y even after hating on the 3 a while back. This is going to replace the 3 as the best selling vehicle in their lineup.

17) Casting. Model 3 back end is over 100 parts. Model Y...2 large parts. Not to mention the wiring setup they have patented to reduce time, parts, and save massive costs. AND the patent for the laser windshield wiper for the new Roadster. They are going to pulverize debris from your windshield with fucking lazors!

18) Notwithstanding the fact that they can raise more money than your sister at amateur night, they had about $1.3b in cash at the end of last quarter. It's not so much money to withstand the cash burn, but funds to acquire. They also loss only 5% in sales in the last quarter which is way lower than the other automakers.

19) Elon is a madlad. This dude has the work ethic of an Arctic Tern and knows more about the formulations of Cheetos than you or I will ever know in two lifetimes. He don't care about money or the bonus he made - which he rightfully deserves. He almost went broke with SpaceX and Model 3. Downside...he's a madlad. Do you really want to step against a guy who just put two with fashionably sensible suits in space and landed boosters on floating wet napkins?

20) See how "maximum short" Jim Chanos is doing.

That is way more than I was willing to say because I respect the confidentiality of toilet conversations. Fuck you all for wasting my Love Island time.

Edit: Fuck you all again. Sincerely.

----------


## max_boost

> TRJ has amazing posts
> 
> That is all.



haha that was a great read. 

Started watching 30 Rock and uh huh The Rurr Jurr .... oh I get it haha Yes I know only 15 years late to the party lol

TRJ reminds me of GTS_Jeff back in the day, just bringing it with his posts lol

----------


## Buster

Rur Jur is a great nickname that I forthwith declare to be used exclusively.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Rur Jur is a great nickname that I forthwith declare to be used exclusively.



Seconded

----------


## killramos

> Seconded



Thirded. But I think it needs the double r’s

----------


## Buster

> Thirded. But I think it needs the double r’s



Rurr Jurr.

This is the way.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Fuck you all (except baby faced max_boost). Now TSLA is going to tank and 
@supe
 can't afford to my Model 3.

----------


## max_boost

> Fuck you all (except baby faced max_boost). Now TSLA is going to tank and 
> @supe
>  can't afford to my Model 3.



Tell me how you feel about this ETF? https://ark-funds.com/arkk

----------


## killramos

> Fuck you all (except baby faced max_boost). Now TSLA is going to tank and 
> @supe
>  can't afford to my Model 3.



Did your mom give it to you? She sounds like a nice lady...

Pics?

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Rurr Jurr.
> 
> This is the way.



Ammend spelling noted and approved, 
Motion carries

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Tell me how you feel about this ETF? https://ark-funds.com/arkk



Cathy Wood is too hot for you. Conclusion: Buy VGRO and PPL.

----------


## max_boost

Dang man. I’m a sucker for the hot ones. Love getting burned lol

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

The covids is still around. We don't know how far the money printer and Congress can go. Kanye may be the new president. Volatility will continue to be high.

Don't be a goofball and risk your kid's tuition money away unless you don't mind family reunions at the local gentlemen's club after she turns 18.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Did your mom give it to you? She sounds like a nice lady...
> 
> Pics?



My mom's a bitch because she has more reps than me.

----------


## supe

Excellent post. And fyi I already own a Model 3. Just some thoughts...




> 1) You cannot value Tesla as a car company. It is an amalgation of probably 8 or 10 tech companies staffed with some of the best engineers and scientists in the world. Tesla and SpaceX are where the top graduates want to work at. Valuing them as a car company is like valuing Amazon as a bookstore, Netflix as a mail order DVD company, and Domino's as a pizza company. Don't be silly - these are all disruptors and they all come with a lot of controversy while the public figures out what to call them.



But but, Toyota pumped out 20 million cars last year, and Tesla only did a few hundred thousand.

People joke about this but I think its because they basically don't understand. Same revelation as when you finally learn McDonalds isn't a burger company. At this point I actually feel bad for analysts that cover Tesla because their competance is automove, but being forced to cover Tesla is like Michael Jordan thinking he's good at baseball. 




> 2) The world is shifting to EV. Forget redneck oil country - think of all the places in the world where gasoline is expensive and pollution abundant. The shutdowns from COVID19 has made people realize that they want cleaner air. There are also a fuckton of subsidies on EVs in some states and several countries.



If the democrats get in, I can't wait to see what kind of EV programs and policies they put in place. Otherwise business as usual. 





> 3) Q2 deliveries beat estimates more than your drunk dad beat you. Q1 and Q2 was going to be the toughest quarters for the year. They eaked out a surprise profit in Q1 and smashed estimates in Q2. During C19 no less! This is very significant - more on this later.



To add some perspective. Fremont was closed for a month and a half, thats HALF the quarter yet they delivered a ton of cars. WSJ headline was Tesla's yoy deliveries was down 5%, lovely. Again big media just doesn't get it. 




> 5) They make good shit. Their acquisitions of companies such as CATL, SilLion, that funky design studio in Berlin that was designing shit for MB and is going to be making the vaccine machine, etc all bring in good patents and knowledge. Make no mistake - Tesla cuck'd MB. Project Roadrunner is up and running where they're going to make a million mile battery. Why do they need a battery that lasts many times longer than a car?



Tesla already said that their goal is to make the drivetrain last a million miles. Why not have a battery to match. But to go beyond that, they are discovering that there is a huge secondary market for batteries. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48760247




> 6) Virtual power plants. Not only do they have fucking solar, they have approvals and the technology to store that energy and create virtual power plants to sell the energy back to the grid. The idea is that your vehicle could end up being a storage point in addition to the Powerwalls. The first part is already in use in South Australia. California and Nevada are going to be nice markets. Basically anywhere that's hotter than your asshole after spicy wing night.



Vehicle to Grid (V2G), Tesla has said in the past that they don't believe in this, breakdowns of the current cars show that they probably don't support this either. But who knows. 





> 8) Ridesharing, ride hailing, autonomous driving - BMW and MB are Level 3 autonomous research bros no more. No one knows why but it is probably due to lack of data. Teslas log an insane amount of data for analysis. No one else comes close. Waymo seems like it could work, but who wants to drive around with a big ass testicle on the roof their car? They are still pretty far due to lack of data points and also come with inherent weaknesses.



This ties is the lidar vs no lidar debate. Lidar is ok in some cases but its also expensive and in bad conditions its reliability breaks down fast. And yes data, Tesla by far has the most real world driving data. And with more than a million cars on the road, they can easily collect more specific scenario data on a whim. I follow some of the brightest minds in the field of AI and autonomous driving, the general consensus is we're still far from real full self driving, but everyone agrees that Tesla is years ahead of anyone else.





> 9) Semi - this shit is in production. Forget NKLA. That's BS. Production is shifting to Semis after the Y and they have the damn infrastructure to follow up. This is a massive market with 950,000 trucks sold annually.



My understanding of what is likely holding the semi up is batteries. These obviously need a lot of batteries and they just cant make enough. But the fact that they announced that they're moving into production hints that they having something figured out, which we'll likely learn on battery day, Sept 15. 




> 10) Infrastructure - who else has the charging infrastructure that can match?



This should be very close to the top of the list. It's not perfect but charging at superchargers is mostly good. I did a who weeks worth of driving out to BC and back for $100. The SC network is still growing. The competitions network is still a work in progress, its segregated, its mostly slow and, in a pinch Teslas can use those but not the other way around. But also I have to add, charging at home is one of the best parts of owning a Tesla. You have no idea how much time you waste filling up every week until you don't have to not to mention having to get out of your car when its raining or freezing. Also having to touch that godawful covid infested pump handle  :ROFL!: 



> 11) Brand recognition and fan bois - What does Tom Brady drive to nail his Gisele's best friend? A Model S P100D. Rogan's a fanboi. Drake. Ye. Yanni. The T has as much brand recognition as Apple without having to make an embarassing Bondi Blue iMac.



All this without a dime spent on ads. 




> 12) S&P 500 inclusion. They need to show a GAAP profit in Q2 to be eligible for S&P500 inclusion. What's the big donkey dick deal, ercchry Jordan Belfort Jr asks? It's a fucking big deal. Tesla should slot in at around the 14th largest company in the index, right by Intel. This means that all S&P500 ETFs will have to purchase Tesla shares at around the same time. 1% of perhaps 10 trillion dollars worth of ETFs representing the S&P works out to be about 70 million shares of Tesla. Let's presume that the good Finance 101 professor's sharts drowned out the important bits of the Econ 433 professor's arguments and the real number is 35 million shares. That's not too bad ercchry thinks. 35 mill...he makes that in 3 strangles and an iron penis. Well, it's 35 million shares. Out of around 145 million shares of free float. That's more significant than your stepmom's fake tits.



To add, these are shares essentially taken off the table so the total volume of available shares drops significantly. 

So maybe Tesla gets included at some point, maybe. Maybe the price goes up a bit, who knows. Perhaps Tesla had a huge short following, again just hypothetically, I wonder what will happen when they all start to cover all at once?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I stopped reading after you said that you are forcing your wife to share a Tesla with you. You are obviously not as nice to your wife as Benyl. 

Max short Tesla.

----------


## supe

> 13) Cybertruck - this shit is B-A-N-A-N-A-S. Its tenure at the Petersen museum already got extended due to popular demand. Ever seen the GMC Sierra in that museum? People love this shit. The popo loves this shit, with departments reporting that the payback period for their Tesla vehicles were 25-40% shorter than anticipated. The redneck militia loves this shit and the Taliban probably needs to replace some of the Hiluxes. There are already something like 700k of reservations. That is a lot - even if a quarter of the people show up with their tendies, that's what...a couple of years of production?



its bananas on so many levels. It looks bananas. It was a brilliant move by Tesla. They could have made an F150 looking truck. But lets be real, truck drivers are loyal, when an F150 driver needs a new F150, they are getting a new F150. So instead of playing the F150 game, they made their own game. Huge gamble but so far the reservation numbers show its paying off. 




> 14) States are tripping over themselves offering incentives for Tesla to build a factory there. See Tulsa, Austin, and probably Saskatoon. The next Terafactory is going to be "YUGE".



I think behind the scenes countries are doing this too. Having a mega factory in your region is huge, and its a lot of jobs. 




> 15) Shanghai factory was completed in 168 days. That's a record for a large construction. The Berlin factory is looking to come close - even without the communist comrades and lower restrictions on their side. Building in Germany was the smart thing to do. If they can survive the brand loyalty there, they will have no trouble with the rest of Europe. Keep in mind that German families are fiercely loyal to their brands. Shanghai giga is already building a mysterious expansion - some say it's for the cybertruck, some say it's for the upcoming Model 2. All I know is that it's not the Stig.



If you read into Elon's backstory he fiercely does everything he can to acquire the best talent. I think this played into the move into Germany which clearly builds excellent cars. But Tesla doesn't have to bat it out of the park in Germany, the factory there feeds all of the continent. 




> 16) Model Y is fucking awesome. See the Munro tear down. The guy almost cracked a smile for the Y even after hating on the 3 a while back. This is going to replace the 3 as the best selling vehicle in their lineup.



The SUV segment is just taking over in general. The future looks good and SEXY. 




> 17) Casting. Model 3 back end is over 100 parts. Model Y...2 large parts. Not to mention the wiring setup they have patented to reduce time, parts, and save massive costs. AND the patent for the laser windshield wiper for the new Roadster. They are going to pulverize debris from your windshield with fucking lazors!



From the outside, the model Y just looks like a bigger 3, but yeah after watching the munro breakdown, it just goes to show they are innovating on pretty much every part of the car, from stamping, to welding, to redesigning and integrating components. The super bottle was one of the 3's best achievements. Tesla bested this with an octovalve paired with a heat pump. Someone smarter than me will have to explain the octovalve and its significance. 




> 18) Notwithstanding the fact that they can raise more money than your sister at amateur night, they had about $1.3b in cash at the end of last quarter. It's not so much money to withstand the cash burn, but funds to acquire. They also loss only 5% in sales in the last quarter which is way lower than the other automakers.



Doesn't sound right, they increased their cash by 1.8B to total 8.1B. Is 8.1B a lot?




> 19) Elon is a madlad. This dude has the work ethic of an Arctic Tern and knows more about the formulations of Cheetos than you or I will ever know in two lifetimes. He don't care about money or the bonus he made - which he rightfully deserves. He almost went broke with SpaceX and Model 3. Downside...he's a madlad. Do you really want to step against a guy who just put two with fashionably sensible suits in space and landed boosters on floating wet napkins?



Bingo, alas Teslas greatest asset is also its greatest liability. And I get it, not everyone loves this style. I'm not a big fan of taunting the SEC. But he's not afraid to show his true character. Better than a cookie cutter clean cut CEO that always only spew out generic BS. 





> 20) See how "maximum short" Jim Chanos is doing.



They have fancy short shorts to wear now, all is good in the world.

Some other thoughts:
-Something about this autobidder makes many think that this could be another huge opportunity. Basically The giant battery pack in Australia has already proven itself economically. But Telsa is going a step further to provide the software behind it to maximize the economics. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/autobidder
-I still think Tesla builds the safest cars on the road. Remember, the S broke the machine that tried to crush it. 
-You've touched on this, but the product lineup is awesome and exciting. The SEMI, the roadster, the cybertruck, and there is a rumored even more economic car in the works.
-Competition, or should I say lack thereof. I thought everyone loved the Bolt and it was going to decimate the 3's sales? I just don't think anyone is serious about going head to head with Tesla and maybe rightfully so, its scary producing a product you know is inferior. This whole covid thing is making automakers reevaluate their spending and many are cutting or delaying their EV programs. This just makes Tesla's lead even further. I just can't see anyone coming out with anything compelling for a while.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Buddy here explains it pretty well. Basically an 8 sided dildo for all the heating and cooling needs in the vehicle.

----------


## ThePenIsMightier

^The reservations are as valuable as my votes were for Boaty McBoatFace. And _trust me_, I voted multiple times.

----------


## benyl

> You are obviously not as nice to your wife as Benyl.



Happy wife.... 

I think Rurr Jurr is a closet Teshla lover. Knows everything all the fanbois know and more. Awesome. haha.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> ^The reservations are as valuable as my votes were for Boaty McBoatFace. And _trust me_, I voted multiple times.



Didn't Boaty win but was stopped by "The Man"?

- - - Updated - - -




> Happy wife.... 
> 
> I think Rurr Jurr is a closet Teshla lover. Knows everything all the fanbois know and more. Awesome. haha.



My Tesla peen is out in the open. I also love NVDA even though both my PCs are AMD.

- - - Updated - - -




> Doesn't sound right, they increased their cash by 1.8B to total 8.1B. Is 8.1B a lot?



I misremembered. It's 8.1B. More reason to short them.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Twist: I am Rurr Jurr's mom! 

But more seriously, one tangible and really beneficial impact that Tesla is going to have on the entire automotive and manufacturing industry is the vastly increased modularization. That Octovalve, the huge rear casting of the model Y. Stuff like that. Traditional automakers may not ever "catch up" but they will need to incorporate concepts like this to reduce build times and increase profits. And, you know what, it should increase reliability and repair-ability too. Your Octovalve might do five functions, but if it malfunctions, you can drop a complete unit in somewhat quickly.

Some other industries do this, even stone-age oil and gas in some capacity. I have met with multiple frac plug manufacturers, and depending on the company, they have 5-10 machining and finishing steps on their plugs AFTER than main composite part is removed from the mold. Well, there's one (at least) that has reduced that to 2 finishing steps, by spending literally millions on a more complex casting. Make plug #1 much more expensive, but if they sell hundreds of thousands, or millions of them, they come out waaaayyy ahead in costs, speed, and functionality. Small example, but ya get it.

EDIT: And the day Tesla is amassing free cash flow, and still expanding, that's the day all the doubters said would never come, and is a true inflection point where the "book" valuation could start to catch up to the market capitalization. I am not doing a deep dive through the finances to figure out if that day has past, or is coming soon. But hey, that will be cool. I may not be a fanboi of Tesla the company, or Tesla the car, but I am a fanboi of advancing technology.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Twist: I am Rurr Jurr's mom! 
> 
> But more seriously, one tangible and really beneficial impact that Tesla is going to have on the entire automotive and manufacturing industry is the vastly increased modularization. That Octovalve, the huge rear casting of the model Y. Stuff like that. Traditional automakers may not ever "catch up" but they will need to incorporate concepts like this to reduce build times and increase profits. And, you know what, it should increase reliability and repair-ability too. Your Octovalve might do five functions, but if it malfunctions, you can drop a complete unit in somewhat quickly.
> 
> Some other industries do this, even stone-age oil and gas in some capacity. I have met with multiple frac plug manufacturers, and depending on the company, they have 5-10 machining and finishing steps on their plugs AFTER than main composite part is removed from the mold. Well, there's one (at least) that has reduced that to 2 finishing steps, by spending literally millions on a more complex casting. Make plug #1 much more expensive, but if they sell hundreds of thousands, or millions of them, they come out waaaayyy ahead in costs, speed, and functionality. Small example, but ya get it.



You can't be my mom. My mom has more rep power than you.

One reason why Tesla doesn't patent a lot of things is that competitors can easily copy/steal the tech if it is out in the open. Sure they can try to deconstruct it, but it ain't as easy as it sounds. They are going the Coca Cola route and locking away the cocaine recipe in the bat cave.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/02/merce...-electric-suv/

----------


## killramos

> My mom's a bitch because she has more reps than me.



The struggle is real

----------


## rage2

I just wish I had more time to research the stock like I did in previous years. I only know headlines these days which is sad. Can't trust that shit.

All I know is, 
@benyl
 has turned into a closet superfan.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Someone buy my Tesla before I trade it in for ExtraSlow's BBQ. It is seriously in too mint of a condition to go to auction - which makes me sad. Cosmos repainted most of the panels in the car shortly after delivery and ShadowTint did the PPF and Tints. We were very very very nitpicky at delivery and my mom can be very scary.

----------


## benyl

> I just wish I had more time to research the stock like I did in previous years. I only know headlines these days which is sad. Can't trust that shit.
> 
> All I know is, 
> @benyl
>  has turned into a closet superfan.



I still don't have a Cybertruck reservation though. I guess I am slacking.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

It's never too late. Tri-Motor all the way.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Tesla is down 4.5% today. Which one of you unlucky fucks bought in and jinxed it?

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Tesla is down 4.5% today. Which one of you unlucky fucks bought in and jinxed it?



I went all in.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Oh snap. I, too, am all in with 2 chairs.

----------


## rage2

https://jalopnik.com/this-blowjob-ma...t-i-1844296987

You win. Time to buy a Tesla.

----------


## max_boost

> Tesla is down 4.5% today. Which one of you unlucky fucks bought in and jinxed it?



You said it was too hot for me, can you let me know when it's too cool for me?  :Love:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Cathie...Cathie's hot.

----------


## max_boost

> Cathy...Cathy's hot.



I know but 
@flipstah
 got dibs already lol

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> https://jalopnik.com/this-blowjob-ma...t-i-1844296987
> 
> You win. Time to buy a Tesla.



Confirmed with Tesla service. Mobile service can install that for you at your home.

----------


## flipstah

> I know but 
> @flipstah
>  got dibs already lol



I can’t afford Teslas so all you, lang jai

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Continuing on shit that folks might not know.

21: Tesla Insurance. Tesla has been offering insurance to their customers in some states. This is brilliant. They already have your driving history from their insane data logging meaning that good drivers will no longer have to subsidize shitty drivers' premiums - which could be bad news for the lot of you.

22: Tesla Dojo. THIS for their AI system.



23: Elon is a memelord and he knows it. Short shorts sold out within hours. Cybertruck broken window t-shirts, etc. He appeals to incels, geeks and nerds who spend their youth playing Castle Wolfenstein and now earn a good living without a girlfriend to spend their money on (the anti max_boost). There are only so many Magic TG cards to buy - where else are they going to spend their money while they are saving their virginity for "the one"?

24: They make the safest cars in the world. AI is better at avoiding accidents than people in many cases. Model 3 has won best car in its category in multiple continents.

25: No other car company has an aftermarket blowie machine made for them. S3X sells. Follow your blue balls like you do every time your best friend brings his wife over for a bbq.

26: More of an update on a previous point. Waymo said that they will have to rely on human engineers to drive around in their cars for several years to come. Tesla? The customers are already driving their cars for them. Tesla has probably over 2-3 billion miles of data by now. Waymo? Maybe 20 million. No one else is even close. The disparity is growing daily. Vision is superior to Waymo in most ways and doesn't require pre-mapping and geo-fencing. 



Elon talking about AI at the World Artificial Intelligence Conference yesterday. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-elon...ic-2020-video/

Cathie...over a year ago. :Love:  :Love:  :Love: 




Pointless video. 



- - - Updated - - -




> I can’t afford Teslas so all you, lang jai



Want to have a lap cheong party?

----------


## Buster

Tesla the first company to reach 20 billion in shorts.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...gainst-a-stock

----------


## max_boost

Now here comes my q lol I’m the opposite of a know it all, I’m a ask it all. Before someone suggests I google, why not ask the q, a member can flex and answer? Then someone else comes in and calls it out. Etc. Lol

Is 20 billion in shorts a lot? How’s that relative to other shorts? Will they get Tesla this time? I swear it wasn’t that long who ppl were saying they were running out of money, musk was gonna go private etc. 

I’ve been doing nothing but watching Cathie wood videos and $6000 Tesla. 

I wanna get rich guys lol can I get a wave 2 corona market crash plz?

----------


## Buster

> Now here comes my q lol I’m the opposite of a know it all, I’m a ask it all. Before someone suggests I google, why not ask the q, a member can flex and answer? Then someone else comes in and calls it out. Etc. Lol
> 
> Is 20 billion in shorts a lot? How’s that relative to other shorts? Will they get Tesla this time? I swear it wasn’t that long who ppl were saying they were running out of money, musk was gonna go private etc. 
> 
> I’ve been doing nothing but watching Cathie wood videos and $6000 Tesla. 
> 
> I wanna get rich guys lol can I get a wave 2 corona market crash plz?



I think it's around twice as large as the next largest.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Now here comes my q lol I’m the opposite of a know it all, I’m a ask it all. Before someone suggests I google, why not ask the q, a member can flex and answer? Then someone else comes in and calls it out. Etc. Lol
> 
> Is 20 billion in shorts a lot? How’s that relative to other shorts? Will they get Tesla this time? I swear it wasn’t that long who ppl were saying they were running out of money, musk was gonna go private etc. 
> 
> I’ve been doing nothing but watching Cathie wood videos and $6000 Tesla. 
> 
> I wanna get rich guys lol can I get a wave 2 corona market crash plz?



Aren't you AMZN rich already? over $3200 at open.  :Pimpin': 

Shorts could be right. Could be a historic short squeeze if they are wrong. This is going to get very interesting.

https://electrek.co/2020/07/10/tesla...bet-bloodbath/




> To be fair, the unprecedented value of the short position is not due to increase interest in shorting Tesla, but because the value per share has also skyrocketed — closing at $1,394 TSLA per share.






> In order to “short” a stock, short sellers need to borrow shares at the current price, and they hope that can buy back at a lower value to “cover” their position.
> 
> If the stock price increases and many short sellers decide to cover at the same time, it creates higher demand for the stock and can push it higher, which is called a “short squeeze.”
> 
> The analyst believes that Tesla shorts have lost just over $18 billion on their bet against Tesla so far in 2020.
> 
> Almost half of those losses happened in June and the first week of July.
> 
> However, Dusaniwsky says that the squeeze was relatively small, with shorts buying only 1.70 million shares worth $2.32 billion to cover their positions:






> Short sellers have bought-to-cover 1.70 million shares, worth $2.32 billion, over the last month as Tesla’s stock price rose +44%. Over the last week, we saw a lull in short covering with only 98,000 shares covered which is still worth a significant $133 million. If Tesla’s stock price continues to trend upward, we expect even more short covering as mark-to-market losses accumulate. Traders can expect a squeeze on their shoulder from their controllers to trim or close out their positions as their Tesla losses breach risk limits.

----------


## max_boost

I wanna be buster rich where I can talk freely about buying FF and whatever other supercar and ppl just reply ooo what color? Vs ummm ya .... ok. Lol

----------


## ExtraSlow

> I wanna be buster rich where I can talk freely about buying FF and whatever other supercar and ppl just reply ooo what color? Vs ummm ya .... ok. Lol



Guys like you and me are rich in our hearts, not our wallets.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Kulu has a grey FF but probably too basic of a trim for buster and it is *gasp* used.

----------


## Buster

What would Phil do?

Also: I drive a VW Atlas and a green car2go - no rich man whips here!

----------


## max_boost

> What would Phil do?
> 
> Also: I drive a VW Atlas and a green car2go - no rich man whips here!



We appreciate you not flaunting at us and being one of the boys!!

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> We appreciate you not flaunting at us and being one of the boys!!



I second that. I thought the green car2go has been sold?

----------


## Buster

> I second that. I thought the green car2go has been sold?



No, I'm too lazy to advertise it. I did sell the GT though.

----------


## supe

:Smilie:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> 



I concur. That green car2go is an amazing car.

----------


## Buster

If anyone actually wants to buy the GLA45, I'd sell it at a fair price...I'm just not motivated enough to get it all up on autotrader and whatnot.

----------


## Xtrema

> Tesla the first company to reach 20 billion in shorts.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...gainst-a-stock



Peaked at $1794 today after Elon dropped $3K on Model Y LR.

WTF is going on?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla...-toyota-honda/

Tesla now worth more than VW/Toyota/Honda combined.

Is this 1999 again?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Peaked at $1794 today after Elon dropped $3K on Model Y LR.
> 
> WTF is going on?
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla...-toyota-honda/
> 
> Tesla now worth more than VW/Toyota/Honda combined.
> 
> Is this 1999 again?



Sir, this is a car2go thread.

----------


## ryuen

TSLA going to beat Elon to Mars  :crazy nut:

----------


## ercchry

> TSLA going to beat Elon to Mars



Or to the earth’s core... that’s some sell off going on

----------


## Darkane

> Peaked at $1794 today after Elon dropped $3K on Model Y LR.
> 
> WTF is going on?
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla...-toyota-honda/
> 
> Tesla now worth more than VW/Toyota/Honda combined.
> 
> Is this 1999 again?



. Com’s

Get in on these new tech companies while they’re hot!

----------


## max_boost

> Is this 1999 again?



Makes you wonder! I have a sell order for 88.88 XQQ and I think something has got to give. This Nasdaq rally has sure been something

----------


## rx7boi

> Makes you wonder! I have a sell order for 88.88 XQQ and I think something has got to give. This Nasdaq rally has sure been something



I thought you had money on the sidelines for when XQQ drops it like it's hot.

You're gonna sell the rest of your position and then do a true YOLO all-in? Haha.

----------


## max_boost

> I thought you had money on the sidelines for when XQQ drops it like it's hot.
> 
> You're gonna sell the rest of your position and then do a true YOLO all-in? Haha.



haha I picked up a small position at $80 after our last chat cuz the fomo was too real lol hit my stop limit so I'm out for now. 

Forget 88.88 XQQ for now, time to wait for 8888 Nasdaq instead lol 

Plan to pick up some ARKK if this sell off is real

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Giggles.

Ten Thousand Day Traders an Hour Are Buying Tesla Shares
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=n8cFqVhh




> Almost 40,000 Robinhood accounts added shares of the automaker during a single four-hour span on Monday, according to website Robintrack.net, which compiles data on the investing platform that’s much beloved by day trading millennials.
> 
> The one-day return may not have turned out so well. Tesla was up as much as 16% at one point before paring gains through the day and finishing 3% lower. It was a rare losing day for the high flying stock, which has surged 56% over the past 10 days.



- - - Updated - - -




> Plan to pick up some ARKK if this sell off is real



 :Love:  Tasha  :Love:

----------


## ExtraSlow

I am all for amateur investors getting into the markets and getting a financial education at the same time. That education doesn't come in weeks and months though. Some of them will learn things the hard way, but sometimes those methods are the best ways to have a lasting lesson.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

That is the Montessori way.

----------


## supe

Absolutely crazy. Tesla posted a profit despite having its factory closed HALF the quarter. 

S&P500 here we come! ... maybe

https://ir.tesla.com/static-files/f4...6-6623b00475a6

----------


## Kobe

> TSLA going to beat Elon to Mars



Hahahahahahahahahahaha funny AF post.. A+++

----------


## Kobe

> I am all for amateur investors getting into the markets and getting a financial education at the same time. That education doesn't come in weeks and months though. Some of them will learn things the hard way, but sometimes those methods are the best ways to have a lasting lesson.



I've spent atleast 1,000 hours studying how markets work/ stocks/technical analysis/fundamental analysis in the last 2-3 years and I'm still dumb as fuck at it but I understand basics of the complex markets. 

I don't think the average investor sees wtf is going on. 

Mind you the rich don't have anywhere else to put money into now, and a company turning profits is very +expected value for investors, considering the bond market is fucked, they basically have USD/GOLD/stonks to put money into and knowing the central banks will do anything in their power to keep stocks afloat now by printing money since rates are zero it doesn't make sense from a short-term perspective.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Only 1,000 hours? Pfffttt...Bieber spent 10,000 hours and 10,000 more.

----------


## Kobe

> Only 1,000 hours? Pfffttt...Bieber spent 10,000 hours and 10,000 more.



yah but I'm not day trading I know I'd still get raped I just enjoyed learning about data.

I mean investing into X for a long-term investment is much easier than some swing trading shit, with that said I don't think I could ever day trade, edges aren't that large + most people investing will have fears and dump if a price goes up like 10% 




> Peaked at $1794 today after Elon dropped $3K on Model Y LR.
> 
> WTF is going on?
> 
> Is this 1999 again?



Yah this really does seem like the Dot.com bubble, but we know where amazon is now after their stock dropped 90%? 95%?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Just ask away man. Some intelligent people on here.

Obviously not mine.

----------


## max_boost

> yah but I'm not day trading I know I'd still get raped I just enjoyed learning about data.
> 
> I mean investing into X for a long-term investment is much easier than some swing trading shit, with that said I don't think I could ever day trade, edges aren't that large + most people investing will have fears and dump if a price goes up like 10% 
> 
> Yah this really does seem like the Dot.com bubble, but we know where amazon is now after their stock dropped 90%? 95%?



Follow the money. I'm hitching my baller status to these guys so I hope they don't fk it up lol 

Basically buy the dips and keep adding positions over the long haul - that's how you get to 7.2

----------


## davidI

Enron Musk has done it again.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Enron Musk has done it again.



Done what?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror



----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Folks noticed the similarities between the Cybertruck and this concept from a Penthouse article.

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/rB...t-brubaker.jpg

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Tesla Megapacks in 'Berta.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...-40903710d2f0/




> The development, northeast of Pincher Creek, will be able to store electricity from the company’s nearby Summerview wind farm and then discharge it when needed.
> 
> The project, costing about $16 million to build, consists of three Tesla lithium-ion battery storage groupings, capable of distributing 10 megawatts (MW) for up to two hours, providing up to 20 MWh of storage capacity.

----------


## JRSC00LUDE

> Enron Musk has done it again.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

What has he done? Other than this horrific audition.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetb...e_2020_market/

----------


## ercchry

If he could hurry up and get Skyrim operational soon that would greatly improve my summer... xplorenet is fucking useless

----------


## Darell_n

> If he could hurry up and get Skyrim operational soon that would greatly improve my summer... xplorenet is fucking useless



I think it’s spelt ‘Skynet’.

----------


## Tik-Tok

> I think it’s spelt ‘Skynet’.



No, Skyrim. erchry wants to be knocked out, and put in a virtual world, waking up as a prisoner in a wagon.

----------


## killramos

> I think it’s spelt ‘Skynet’.



Starlink. But hey, while we are correcting people  :ROFL!:

----------


## Darell_n

> Starlink. But hey, while we are correcting people



Starlink is what I used for satellite radio 20 years ago.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Most of y'all are as clueless as PWC auditors.

----------


## ercchry

I don’t have enough bandwidth to do any fact checking, nor sober enough to care  :ROFL!:

----------


## killramos

> I don’t have enough bandwidth to do any fact checking, nor sober enough to care



Not enough bandwidth to play Skyrim either

----------


## ercchry

> Not enough bandwidth to play Skyrim either



Not enough pinky rings to be nerd enough either

----------


## killramos

> Not enough pinky rings to be nerd enough either



Makes sense, a triangular ring would be hella uncomfortable.

----------


## ercchry

> Makes sense, a triangular ring would be hella uncomfortable.



If you’re in a secret society you don’t wear a ring telling people. Rookie

----------


## msommers

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do, we do
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do, we do
Who robs gamefish of their site?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Tesla launches car wrap service in China

https://electrek.co/2020/08/06/tesla...-wrap-service/

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

TSLA 5 for 1 split effective August 31 announced after market. Stonks up $100.




> PALO ALTO, Calif., Aug. 11, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Tesla, Inc.(TSLA) (“Tesla”) announced today that the Board of Directors has approved and declared a five-for-one split of Tesla’s common stock in the form of a stock dividend to make stock ownership more accessible to employees and investors. Each stockholder of record on August 21, 2020 will receive a dividend of four additional shares of common stock for each then-held share, to be distributed after close of trading on August 28, 2020. Trading will begin on a stock split-adjusted basis on August 31, 2020.

----------


## max_boost

Alright time to buy more ARK funds hehe

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Alright time to buy more ARK funds hehe



Cathie makes me speak moistly.

----------


## max_boost

RurrJurr who is gonna be kicked off the Dow to make room for Tesla? Hehe

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

You're following this shit... :thumbs up: 
The big debate now is whether naked shorts will be forced to cover.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Can the Electrical pinky ring gang elaborate on whether this is a big deal or not? 
@The Cosworth
 
@Xtrema


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-horn...d-final-tests/



> *During its tests on Tuesday, for example, the upgraded Hornsdale battery performed a rapid 270MW flip by charging at 120MW and discharging at 150MW*

----------


## Darkane

> Who controls the British crown?
> Who keeps the metric system down?
> We do, we do
> Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
> Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
> We do, we do
> Who holds back the electric car?
> Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
> We do, we do
> ...



...AND your official stonecutters underwear!

----------


## The Cosworth

> Can the Electrical pinky ring gang elaborate on whether this is a big deal or not? 
> @The Cosworth
>  
> @Xtrema
> 
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-horn...d-final-tests/



Would depend what they mean by Rapid and the grid strength it was attached to. Although the technology itself is pretty impressive. Would be able to backup a very large system quickly or be able to absorb a huge spike in unexpected renewable; big gush of wind for example or when a cloud passes over a large solar array.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Would depend what they mean by Rapid and the grid strength it was attached to. Although the technology itself is pretty impressive. Would be able to backup a very large system quickly or be able to absorb a huge spike in unexpected renewable; big gush of wind for example or when a cloud passes over a large solar array.



Ok. Bought more chairs.

----------


## Xtrema

> Ok. Bought more chairs.



http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market...ntentType=html

Battery will allow balancing out the green and red and give a more steady pool price.

But I not sure how the economics to investing in a battery farm would work. In theory, the is $10/MW differential in price per day. If you charges at the lowest pool and release in the highest, that's your revenue. So say you can cycle 100MW per day, your potential take in is $1000/day on a $66M investment (cost of the Tesla's 100MW farm).

So on that alone, it's very tough to justify. But if we start to replace coal/ng with solar, then the need to bank during the day and release during the night to attack the duck curve, it may make sense.

But then if we have a nuke, the need for battery would be back to the original scenario, bank in low demand at night and release at high demand during the day.

I still think nuke replacing NG/Coal fire plant make sense for a stable base line. Renewable/Battery will take care of the fluctuation.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

For the record, I like nukelar. How do you calculate the ROI on nukes?

----------


## Xtrema

> For the record, I like nukelar. How do you calculate the ROI on nukes?



Well, what Kenney promises on SMR probably doesn't even materialize for another decade or so. So who knows.

Russian effort has quadrupled in cost once build.. $740M for a 70MW plant. That's almost 20x of a equivalent NG plant.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/small-mo...0%20MW%20plant.

May be solar will get cheap enough to make room to pair with batteries as well and still be competitive with NG/Coal.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

How about this to lower costs? Jeff Dahn is a professor at Dalhousie, one of the pioneers of Lithium Ion tech, and has a research partnership with Tesla.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-020-0668-8




> Anode-free lithium metal cells store 60% more energy per volume than conventional lithium-ion cells. Such high energy density can increase the range of electric vehicles by approximately 280 km or even enable electrified urban aviation. However, these cells tend to experience rapid capacity loss and short cycle life. Furthermore, safety issues concerning metallic lithium often remain unaddressed in the literature. Recently, we demonstrated long-lifetime anode-free cells using a dual-salt carbonate electrolyte. Here we characterize the degradation of anode-free cells with this lean (2.6 g Ah−1) liquid electrolyte. We observe deterioration of the pristine lithium morphology using scanning electron microscopy and X-ray tomography, and diagnose the cause as electrolyte degradation and depletion using nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy and ultrasonic transmission mapping. For the safety characterization tests, we measure the cell temperature during nail penetration. Finally, we use the insights gained in this work to develop an optimized electrolyte, extending the lifetime of anode-free cells to 200 cycles.



Also.  :Smilie:

----------


## max_boost

Tmr Tesla will be 1888.88

- - - Updated - - -




> Enron Musk has done it again.



yes yes indeed he has lol

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

It needs to be at 2103.45 to get 420.69 after the split.

----------


## ZenOps

Never thought I'd see a flying car. To the moon!

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Elon Musk is a time traveller confirmed.

He tweeted on May 1 at 8:11pm "Tesla stock price is too high imo".
On August 11, a 5 for 1 stock split was announced.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Stonk hit 2020.

----------


## max_boost

Buy high and sell higher is a better strategy than my old one where I bought low and sold lower.

What say you rurrjurr? Do I keep holding?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I know nothing, Chow Yun Fat.
5:1 split for shareholders of record tomorrow.

----------


## supe

I need some financial advice  :Big Grin: 

And whatever advice I get here, I'm doing the opposite, seems to be working

----------


## ExtraSlow

I'm like the george costanza of investing. Just do the opposite.

----------


## never

> I'm like the george costanza of investing. Just do the opposite.



Best Seinfeld episode ever!

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I am the GIT of investing and do the opposite of ExtraSlow. Just do the opposite.

- - - Updated - - -




> I need some financial advice 
> 
> And whatever advice I get here, I'm doing the opposite, seems to be working



Dafaq did you do 
@supe
? lol

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Good old Elon confusing people again.

----------


## max_boost

> I need some financial advice 
> 
> And whatever advice I get here, I'm doing the opposite, seems to be working



Need or want? lol 

The Opposites is a sure thing  :Big Grin:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

@supe
 made so much money he can't decide whether to buy a Trackhawk or an NSX first.

----------


## max_boost

Just another day in the tech bubble. Anyone wanna predict when it gonna burst. I’ll make sure I have an appt for therapy that day

----------


## Xtrema

> Just another day in the tech bubble. Anyone wanna predict when it gonna burst. I’ll make sure I have an appt for therapy that day



After Nov election, just to revive Thanks <insert president> memes.

----------


## max_boost

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Everything is dippy. I'm not betting against Talulah Riley.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Elon wants a rave cave for the Giga Berlin grand opening. Stonks up confirmed.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Tesla to print vaccines in conjunction with CureVac.

----------


## rage2

Paging 
@ZenOps


https://www.reuters.com/article/tesl...-idINL8N2FF6ZP

----------


## RedDawn

Game over for Tesla. Nikola Motors just unveiled their gravity powered drive.

Zero emissions.
No moving parts. Zero maintenance.

All other car companies are toast.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Game over for Tesla. Nikola Motors just unveiled their gravity powered drive.
> 
> Zero emissions.
> No moving parts. Zero maintenance.
> 
> All other car companies are toast.




That's like the fastest a Toyota has ever gone.

----------


## Xtrema

Battery Day is here....

Elon is managing expectation:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/...000103455.html

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

This one must have snuck by the Kenney Coalition.

https://www.transaltarenewables.com/...Mx629MU3mvUcF4




> “TransAlta Renewables Inc. (“TransAlta Renewables” or the “Company”) (TSX: RNW) announced that its 10 MW WindCharger battery storage project (“WindCharger”) began commercial operation on October 15, 2020. WindCharger is Alberta’s first utility-scale, lithium-ion energy storage project and utilizes Tesla Megapack technology,”

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Earnings beat-ed. 

TL;DR for battery day included in the release.

----------


## Xtrema

> Earnings beat-ed. 
> 
> TL;DR for battery day included in the release.
> Attachment 94826



https://insideevs.com/news/450338/is...0-cells-to-lg/

----------


## RedDawn

No one cares about earnings. 

FSD beta release is where it's at.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> No one cares about earnings. 
> 
> FSD beta release is where it's at.



I care about earnings because I didn't buy enuff TAAT for my ticket to Tendie Town.

----------


## ExtraSlow

So, Tesla has had 5 quarters in a row of profits - that's good. But they only make profits because of selling credits to other automakers, that's not as good. 
Will shut up a lot of naysayers when they make profits on their "core business" of manufacturing automobiles. 

Seems that selling credits of this type isn't something that can stay profitable forever. Either regulatory environment will change, or other companies will find another source.

----------


## killramos

There is profit and then there is “profit to justify a 400 Billion EV”, currently at 120X EBITDA multiple.

Your choice if you think that makes sense.

----------


## ExtraSlow

Oh man, I can't, and probably never will, invest in that stock. It falls into the big bucket of "companies I don't understand".

----------


## Xtrema

> So, Tesla has had 5 quarters in a row of profits - that's good. But they only make profits because of selling credits to other automakers, that's not as good. 
> Will shut up a lot of naysayers when they make profits on their "core business" of manufacturing automobiles. 
> 
> Seems that selling credits of this type isn't something that can stay profitable forever. Either regulatory environment will change, or other companies will find another source.






> No one cares about earnings.



That's the stock market right now in a snapshot.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> So, Tesla has had 5 quarters in a row of profits - that's good. But they only make profits because of selling credits to other automakers, that's not as good. 
> Will shut up a lot of naysayers when they make profits on their "core business" of manufacturing automobiles. 
> 
> Seems that selling credits of this type isn't something that can stay profitable forever. Either regulatory environment will change, or other companies will find another source.



That's not entirely accurate.  :Wink:  Dive into the financial statements and listen to the calls.
Forget what I said. Just buy TAAT, CNRL, PPL, a pole, and VGRO.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Forget what I said. Just buy TAAT, CNRL, PPL, a pole, and VGRO.



 I current own none of those. #no7.2forme

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> I current own none of those. #no7.2forme



You sure you don't own a pole? You should if you don't. The cardio is amazing.

----------


## ercchry

Has anyone done a case study on purchasing TSLA weeklies every Monday? I wouldn’t “invest” at this evaluation either... but are the odds better than the 1/3rds bets on a roulette table?  :ROFL!:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> case study



case study?  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  :ROFL!:  Sir, this is an EIT support group.

----------


## ercchry

> case study?  Sir, this is an EIT support group.



I need someone to track this and put together a PPT... invoice buster for the work

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> I need someone to track this and put together a PPT... invoice buster for the work



THAT I am good at. Also good at invoicing for safety moment presentations.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

This partly explains why a lot of people still can't get a handle on the valuation.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Don't suffer from Tesla Derangement Syndrome.

FCA credits will effectively fund Giga Berlin...and a large chunk of the CEO bonuses.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...says/40968147/

----------


## hurrdurr

Is there a reason the Federal rebate is only for vehicles $50,000 and less? I was kind of interested in a LR Model 3 but it misses the mark to be applicable for any rebates

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Is there a reason the Federal rebate is only for vehicles $50,000 and less? I was kind of interested in a LR Model 3 but it misses the mark to be applicable for any rebates



It's just how it is. They used to have a SR- that snuck under that threshold.

----------


## benyl

> Is there a reason the Federal rebate is only for vehicles $50,000 and less? I was kind of interested in a LR Model 3 but it misses the mark to be applicable for any rebates



Gubment doesn't want to help the rich.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Is there a reason the Federal rebate is only for vehicles $50,000 and less? I was kind of interested in a LR Model 3 but it misses the mark to be applicable for any rebates



Because rich people are the enemy and cannot be encouraged to exist.

----------


## hurrdurr

> Gubment doesn't want to help the rich.



Isn't it an environmental rebate? The dollar value shouldn't be affected by that but I suppose complaining on beyond won't make a difference lol.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Isn't it an environmental rebate? The dollar value shouldn't be affected by that but I suppose complaining on beyond won't make a difference lol.



EVERYTHING the government does is intended to be a wealth transfer downwards. NONE of the environmental policies are about the environment.

----------


## benyl

> EVERYTHING the government does is intended to be a wealth transfer downwards. NONE of the environmental policies are about the environment.



The funny thing about this picture is that we will be paying dearly for years for all the people that got CERB that probably shouldn’t.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

I hope some needy fisherman makes good use of the rebate that you aren't getting.

----------


## ercchry

I’m not too worried about it... most of these people are so bad with money to begin with that it should cycle back into the economy instantly

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Buying weed and not Teslas like they should.

----------


## benyl

> I’m not too worried about it... most of these people are so bad with money to begin with that it should cycle back into the economy instantly



You mean like the assholes who spend $50K+ on a Tesla and then don’t buy TPMS sensors for their winter wheels and complain about the nag? Priorities I guess.

----------


## J-D

> You mean like the assholes who spend $50K+ on a Tesla and then don’t buy TPMS sensors for their winter wheels and complain about the nag? Priorities I guess.



Literally $140 (except for the new Y ones, but even they're only a few hundred). Blows my mind.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Literally $140 (except for the new Y ones, but even they're only a few hundred). Blows my mind.



$400 for the Y man. Bluetooth.  :ROFL!:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

TSLA in S&P500. +9% AH. Stonk squeeze incoming tmr?




> NEW YORK, November 16, 2020: Tesla Inc. (NASD:TSLA) will be added to the S&P 500 effective
> prior to the open of trading on Monday, December 21 to coincide with the December quarterly
> rebalance. Due to the large size of the addition, S&P Dow Jones Indices is seeking feedback through a
> consultation to the investment community to determine if Tesla should be added all at once on the
> rebalance effective date or in two separate tranches ending on the rebalance effective date. Tesla will
> replace a S&P 500 company to be named in a separate press release closer to the rebalance effective
> date

----------


## ercchry

> TSLA in S&P500. +9% AH. Stonk squeeze incoming tmr?



Fak... was planning on playing this 2 weeks before rebalance. This is so early to announce!

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Fak... was planning on playing this 2 weeks before rebalance. This is so early to announce!



Up 12% and still climbing. Rebalance date doesn't apply to addition/subtractions.
Volatility has been so low for the past few weeks. The swing is going to be epic!

----------


## ercchry

> Up 12% and still climbing. Rebalance date doesn't apply to addition/subtractions.
> Volatility has been so low for the past few weeks. The swing is going to be epic!



Yeah I know... just historically they announce big boi additions closer to 2 weeks before. Makes sense this was even sooner though given the size

IV was so slow too I was excited... finally affordable TSLA calls  :ROFL!:

----------


## taemo

my small tsla stonk will finally be green :Love:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> my small tsla stonk will finally be green



LI +18% today. Chinese EV stonks...

----------


## taemo

> LI +18% today. Chinese EV stonks...



havent researched Li yet but finally bought some xpev and bit more kndi today.
fingers crossed for Nio tomorrow afternoon

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

IS JOKE COMRADE already has a video up.  :ROFL!: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetb...eb2x&context=3

----------


## killramos

Explains why S&P is down this am...

----------


## taemo

congrats TSLA holders, some nice gain today

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

The market loves Space Karens.

----------


## JustinL

What does the group think about Tesla merging or taking over another company? Musk mentioned recently that he was open to the idea and it got me thinking about who would be the likely targets. Is taking over another car company and it's dealer network something Tesla wants to get into, or would they go after a technology company or battery maker? To me, a company like Magna would make a lot of sense. They already build a lot of electric car parts and do car assembly, but don't market or sell any brands.

----------


## killramos

Why bother. Their valuations have nothing to do with how many cars they produce or how much money they make.

No way they can acquire into accretion.

M&A aspirations would just expose the fact that there is no valuing anything that was going on.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I think they'd need to be very careful not to take over huge liabilities or legacy agreements with unions or dealership networks. Becoming more like the old-school automakers isn't probaly thier plan.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

*scurries away*

----------


## Xtrema

> What does the group think about Tesla merging or taking over another company? Musk mentioned recently that he was open to the idea and it got me thinking about who would be the likely targets. Is taking over another car company and it's dealer network something Tesla wants to get into, or would they go after a technology company or battery maker? To me, a company like Magna would make a lot of sense. They already build a lot of electric car parts and do car assembly, but don't market or sell any brands.



I think this talk came from the fact that Tesla only have 1% margin even when they are profitable. That's way too thin as competition heats up.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

**scurries around in the back**

----------


## ercchry

> I think this talk came from the fact that Tesla only have 1% margin even when they are profitable. That's way too thin as competition heats up.



Who are you? Michael Burry or something??!!  :ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

Fukk guise, we gotta larn our lessonz. When there were no profits, we bitched, but now there are profits. Margins werk the same way, I am tellin yew.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

***scurrying intensifies***

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

GS upgrades TSLA Souffle to a Buy with PT of $780.

TL;DR - Yada yada better EV adoption, lower battery costs than expected. Souffle is real.

----------


## ercchry

Poor Burry

https://reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/...leted_all_his/

----------


## ExtraSlow

If you aren't regularly deleting all your content, throwing a hissy fit and changing your name, are you even on social media?

----------


## taemo

5bn$ stock dilution and TSLA still ends green.

this deserves to be here for lulz

----------


## supe

Grabbed from social media somewhere.
TSLA worth more than the following combined:
GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda,
Mazda, BMW, Ferrari, Fiat
Chrysler,Aston Martin & VW

----------


## ThePenIsMightier

^That's sounds wrong or confusing.

In other news, what happened to all these people's money? 
https://markets.businessinsider.com/...0-1-1028823046
24 million shares were shorted in late January.

I think it was about $120 back then. that's less than $600

----------


## killramos

> Grabbed from social media somewhere.
> TSLA worth more than the following combined:
> GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda,
> Mazda, BMW, Ferrari, Fiat
> Chrysler,Aston Martin & VW



While it doesn’t surprise me that you get your news from Social Media, that’s not even a little bit true.

#teslamarth

----------


## supe

> ^That's sounds wrong or confusing.



I just worked it out its pretty damn close maybe there is some market timing in it.




> While it doesn’t surprise me that you get your news from Social Media, that’s not even a little bit true.
> 
> #teslamarth



 I'm up hundreds of thousands, what's your record with Tesla?

----------


## killramos

I don’t touch emotional trash. And no the math is not even close.

People make money gambling all the time. I suggest you continue to toss it all back on red.

----------


## taemo

> Grabbed from social media somewhere.
> TSLA worth more than the following combined:
> GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda,
> Mazda, BMW, Ferrari, Fiat
> Chrysler,Aston Martin & VW



I think you are referring to this

----------


## ExtraSlow

Legit comments. 
1) props to someone who made money. I respect money. 
2) props to Tesla for figuring out how to decouple valuation from every traditional automaker metric. The naysayers like me have been conclusively proven wrong about the way this was going to work.

----------


## killramos

To help supe with the marth, Market Cap =/= Value

----------


## ercchry

> To help supe with the marth, Market Cap =/= Value



You disagreeing with value =/= to the value placed on the company 

Love it or hate it, it’s publicly traded. The truest definition of value is what someone is willing to pay for it. Market has dictated this value

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

props to you pops.




> Legit comments. 
> 1) props to someone who made money. I respect money. 
> 2) props to Tesla for figuring out how to decouple valuation from every traditional automaker metric. The naysayers like me have been conclusively proven wrong about the way this was going to work.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> To help supe with the marth, Market Cap =/= Value



Unless you are talking about emotional value, I think market cap DOES EQUAL value. 

You know I'm always here for you when you want to talk about emotions though bro.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Unless you are talking about emotional value, I think market cap DOES EQUAL value. 
> 
> You know I'm always here for you when you want to talk about emotions though bro.



I want to talk about emotions.

----------


## killramos

> You disagreeing with value =/= to the value placed on the company 
> 
> Love it or hate it, it’s publicly traded. The truest definition of value is what someone is willing to pay for it. Market has dictated this value



What is it you do for a living again? Finance something something? You are forgetting a large piece of the pie. 

Consider this some PD for your Sunday lol

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...talization.asp

Enterprise value is market cap in addition to outstanding preferred shares and net debt, this is the correct way to value a company nothing emotional about it. Tesla is not more valuable than the laundry list of companies mentioned, that is unless you ignore a significant portion of those companies valuations.

Marth.

- - - Updated - - -




> Unless you are talking about emotional value, I think market cap DOES EQUAL value. 
> 
> You know I'm always here for you when you want to talk about emotions though bro.



Also no. See above lol

----------


## ExtraSlow

Debt matters? Fuck don't tell my customers in Texas

----------


## killramos

> Debt matters? Fuck don't tell my customers in Texas



Without debt your customers would be worth nothing haha

Your customers and half of Calgary.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Why are you guys picking to fight in this thread on the holy day of Sunday?

----------


## ExtraSlow

> Without debt your customers would be worth nothing haha
> 
> Your customers and half of Calgary.



My customers heloc that shit.

----------


## Buster

Isn't tesla just a tech stock at this point? What is the purpose of comparing to auto companies when Tesla isn't being treated like an auto company?

----------


## killramos

> Isn't tesla just a tech stock at this point? What is the purpose of comparing to auto companies when Tesla isn't being treated like an auto company?



It makes their shareholders less scared shitless to own their paper, for some reason.

----------


## dirtsniffer

P/E is 1200.. that's good right?

----------


## killramos

:rocket: 

Am I doing this right?

----------


## ExtraSlow

@supe
 did it right.  :rocket:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

More  :rocket:  :rocket:  :rocket:  :rocket:  :rocket: 
Less questioning errrchmmommy's qualifications
Shalom

----------


## supe

Ok back to real talk, S&P 500 entry is this week. This is an unprecedented event, this is the largest 'valued' company to ever enter the S&P 500. Around 17% of the float, 130M shares or $80B will have to be scooped up by friday by index funds. That doesn't count tall the funds that benchmark against the S&P. The only thing for sure is volatility will go through the roof this week, particularly friday which is a quad witching day. 

Thoughts on where the stock will go? To me thats a HUGE amount of buying demand, but is this priced in? 

Its very hard for me to split ways with my stock, but i'm holding 450 calls right  :Burn Out:  now which I'm going to sell at some point this week. 

Disclaimer, I got all this info from social media.
 
@The_Rural_Juror
 I'm particularly interested in your thoughts.

Oh and just for fun, TSLA is also getting included in the S&P 100 which is replacing... OXY.

----------


## Buster

> @supe
>  did it right.



I'd rather be lucky than good.

I also wish I was born rich instead of handsome.

- - - Updated - - -




> Ok back to real talk, S&P 500 entry is this week. This is an unprecedented event, this is the largest 'valued' company to ever enter the S&P 500. Around 17% of the float, 130M shares or $80B will have to be scooped up by friday by index funds. That doesn't count tall the funds that benchmark against the S&P. The only thing for sure is volatility will go through the roof this week, particularly friday which is a quad witching day. 
> 
> Thoughts on where the stock will go? To me thats a HUGE amount of buying demand, but is this priced in? 
> 
> Its very hard for me to split ways with my stock, but i'm holding 450 calls right  now which I'm going to sell at some point this week. 
> 
> Disclaimer, I got all this info from social media.
> 
> 
> ...



Are you asking if the market has properly "priced in" anything in Tesla stock?

It's a speculative bubble. Asking for how rational people will react is...interesting.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> @The_Rural_Juror
>  I'm particularly interested in your thoughts.



It doesn't matter what I think at this moment because a lot of people won't care or listen so I will make it brief. I don't see why S&P won't be insane this week. Indexed funds taking ~17% of free float + benchmarked funds taking some number (call it 10%) + a healthy bit of gamma squeeze (adding to my FD bud's options vocab) on the Market Makers - the brilliant 1 day capital raise last week. I have been trying to figure out where my blind spot is on this but haven't been able to come up with anything substantial other than lots of tree shaking. I even went on Zerohedge and OAN.




> I also wish I was born rich instead of handsome.
> 
> Are you asking if the market has properly "priced in" anything in Tesla stock?
> It's a speculative bubble. Asking for how rational people will react is...interesting.



ABNB, PLTR, GME, are all much more speculative than this in my opinion. And I am not trading in my horse cock for more luck.

----------


## Buster

> It doesn't matter what I think at this moment because a lot of people won't care or listen so I will make it brief. I don't see why S&P won't be insane this week. Indexed funds taking ~17% of free float + benchmarked funds taking some number (call it 10%) + a healthy bit of gamma squeeze (adding to my FD bud's options vocab) on the Market Makers - the brilliant 1 day capital raise last week. I have been trying to figure out where my blind spot is on this but haven't been able to come up with anything substantial other than lots of tree shaking. I even went on Zerohedge and OAN.
> 
> 
> 
> ABNB, PLTR, GME, are all much more speculative than this in my opinion. And I am not trading in my horse cock for more luck.



No shortage of speculative positions out there.

----------


## taemo

what's everyone's plan with their TSLA stonk in preparation for monday?

HODL or cash out then re-enter after a dip?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> what's everyone's plan with their TSLA stonk in preparation for monday?
> 
> HODL or cash out then re-enter after a dip?



Are you specumalating on this?

----------


## killramos

I thought stonks always went up?

----------


## taemo

> I thought stonks always went up?



it is expected for TSLA to get to Mars




> Are you specumalating on this?



yeah specumalating that after financial institutions have finished buying TLSA stonks that we might see some dips.

im HODLing btw, too lazy to short

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> yeah specumalating that after financial institutions have finished buying TLSA stonks that we might see some dips.
> 
> im HODLing btw, too lazy to short



Do you have shorting authomizationz? Pls don't short. Cash out if you want but don't short.

----------


## max_boost

How long before $1000 Tesla lol

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> How long before $1000 Tesla lol



Cathie loves TSLA, BTC, Genomics, and 
@max_boost

TSLA conversation starts around 16 mins.

----------


## max_boost

kk picked up 10shares of Tesla at 666 lol

----------


## supe

Wow, I followed the stock price almost all day (I never do this), and just as many predicted a huge amount of volume transacted at the closing cross closing the price at 695!

Some are speculating that not all the indexers got in, let alone any other active funds. Monday will be interesting. 

Still holding.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Wow, I followed the stock price almost all day (I never do this), and just as many predicted a huge amount of volume transacted at the closing cross closing the price at 695!
> 
> Some are speculating that not all the indexers got in, let alone any other active funds. Monday will be interesting. 
> 
> Still holding.



It was a really interesting day but not as volatile as expected outside of the first 15 mins and last 5 minutes.

----------


## taemo

was too lazy to do anything so didn't touch my TSLA stonks. Monday will be very interesting to see what will happen

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> was too lazy to do anything so didn't touch my TSLA stonks. Monday will be very interesting to see what will happen



You're fine if you're holding stonks. Options got super interesting.

----------


## Disoblige

supe at 7.2 yet?  :Burn Out:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Is 7.2 enough nowadays?

----------


## killramos

> Is 7.2 enough nowadays?



It’s never enough

----------


## Disoblige

Sorry I meant 7.2b.

Thought it was obvious.

----------


## killramos

> Sorry I meant 7.2b.
> 
> Thought it was obvious.



Please. That’s not even enough to fund a Mars colony

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

The couper is the authority on this, but I can't poke him because he is popular now with his new wheels.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I can't afford the map that has the description of the road to 7.2. 

I'll stick to my coop beer and lottery groups.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror



----------


## max_boost

I love stories like that!!

----------


## arcticcat522

I think that's 
@supe

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> I think that's 
> @supe



I am happy that he's got his own place now at 32.

----------


## ExtraSlow

That is not a flattering pic.

----------


## taemo

good for the guy, TSLA has definitely made a lot of people millionaires this year.

so who on beyond also owns the Tesla shorts and tequila?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Shorts were sold out quickly. Tequila was never offered here - liquor laws.

----------


## supe

I have short shorts, yes I have the flamethrower too 

I tried to get tequila but they didn't sell it here and by the time I found someone to ship it to they sold out.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

It's not a flamethrower.

----------


## supe

Another social media update:
https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/st...559559169?s=20

Adam Jonas at MS is/was a bear analyst on Tesla and just upgraded the stock. Lots of index funds still need to buy TSLA. Stock is up a bit AH.

----------


## ercchry

Musk gonna surpass Bezos before the end of the week!

----------


## ExtraSlow

I support Elon getting richer. He does cool stuff with it
Bezozz is boringzzz.

----------


## ercchry

Well, he did it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/elon...ff-bezos-.html

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Bezos shouldn't have divorced that fox.  :Love:   :rocket:

----------


## taemo

congrats TSLA-naires!

I think we have a few here on beyond?

----------


## max_boost

Feb 7 2018 Cathie calls for $4k Tesla

Aging nicely just like her  :Love:

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

:ROFL!:

----------


## ExtraSlow

Fuck you Peter.  :Guns:

----------


## supe

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/hyun...ith-apple.html

Hyundai?? Suspect choice.... at least owners won't have to worry about an engine recall...

Also Tesla becomes the #1 selling car in the UK in December

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...w-car-december

And the stock closed at $880.02, my first money was in at $40, $8 post split  :crazy nut:

----------


## ExtraSlow

> And the stock closed at $880.02, my first money was in at $40, $8 post split



That's sick supe. High five

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Hyundai is in a JV with Canoo. One of Canoo's concept sedans looks almost like Apple's concept. Apple buys bangbus EV confirmed.

----------


## vengie

> Hyundai is in a JV with Canoo. One of Canoo's concept sedans looks almost like Apple's concept. Apple buys bangbus EV confirmed.



My fingers are crossed this happens.


Also 
@supe
 , That is absolutely amazing. Well done!!

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

@supe
 :thumbs up:

----------


## Disoblige

supe da fuckin' man!
Ignored all the haters back in the day and stook to his guns.

----------


## max_boost

> supe da fuckin' man!
> Ignored all the haters back in the day and stook to his guns.



It’s beautiful. Mad respect.

----------


## rage2

Too bad Gestalt is no longer around. Guy must have upgraded to Tesla roof and powerwalls by now after going all in haha.

Great job supe!

----------


## dirtsniffer

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...ource=facebook

----------


## roopi

> https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...ource=facebook



So short TSLA based on empty promises?

----------


## killramos

> So short TSLA based on empty promises?



What, its not enough to want to short them because they dont make any money selling cars?

----------


## roopi

They are a technology company. They dont need to make cars.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> They are a technology company. They dont need to make cars.



I agree.

----------


## dirtsniffer

What do they make that's not cars?

----------


## vengie

> What do they make that's not cars?



Technology, keep up.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> What do they make that's not cars?



"making things" and"selling items" is last century thinking.

----------


## killramos

> What do they make that's not cars?



Memes

----------


## ExtraSlow



----------


## The_Rural_Juror

Have you guys ever listened to their earnings calls or dug into their financial statements?

----------


## killramos

> Have you guys ever listened to their earnings calls or dug into their financial statements?



Yes, even built a corporate model on them once. You think that justifies their valuation?

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Yes, even built a corporate model on them once. You think that justifies their valuation?



Absolutely.

----------


## killramos

That’s an interesting viewpoint

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

When did you build this corporate model and what do you have for CAGR? 

And I want to hear your thoughts too, 
@ExtraSlow
. Rather than brigading every Tesla thread, let's hear your analysis.

If you guys are so passionate about this, perhaps you should short the stock. It's a no-brainer, right?

----------


## dirtsniffer

No, I haven't.. But I have this crazy premise. If someone says they are going to do a bunch of great things and then fail to deliver on all of them I tend to not believe anything they say.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> And I want to hear your thoughts too, 
> @ExtraSlow
> . Rather than brigading every Tesla thread, let's hear your analysis.



I talk too much in every thread. I haven't done any detailed analysis of their financial reports or their business plan. Also have never, and don't know how to, short stocks.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> No, I haven't.. But I have this crazy premise. If someone says they are going to do a bunch of great things and then fail to deliver on all of them I tend to not believe anything they say.



I wouldn't say that they failed to deliver all of them. FSD yes. I'm very optimistic about this year. Model 3, Shanghai, Berlin, Austin, etc. I'm fine with. I'm excited about 4680 cells, Semi/Cybertruck this year, Model Y in Shanghai (and maybe Berlin). Their inventory is about 1/3, 1/4, of traditional manufacturers. Sensitivity to silicon shortage this year is lower than others because they produce their own. Automotive gross margin was 24% in Q4 despite several one time only charges that they addressed in the call. They are at approximately 20% automotive gross margins for Y2020 _without_ the regulatory credits that you guys keep harping about. FCF was $1.8B in Q4, with $19B of cash on hand. Costs are going to be further reduced as they move to further casting, and 4680 cell manufacturing. Call me a fanboi, but I know my shit.

The difference between several of you and myself is that I have skin in the game, whereas you're just hecklers with nothing better to do than hate on a company that you may not fully understand. I have put hundreds of hours of research into this company and am willing to put my life savings on the line. 

Here's let's leave it at this because this will get senselessly heated. I currently have long positions on this company. I have held long positions for some time, closed out almost all of my positions last week due to market instability, and reopened a bunch this morning. We can check back in a year or two. Deal? Probability is on your side as you guys deemed this to be overvalued many multiples ago.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> The difference between several of you and myself is that I have skin in the game, whereas you're just hecklers.



 Accurate, I have no skin in the game for this conversation, and I am just heckling. 

And to be clear, I want Tesla to be a successful company. I want them to do well. I've said as much, although probably not as loudly as I have heckled. Furthermore, So far my predictions have been mostly proven wrong, I'm not looking like a particularly credible voice on this topic based on my track record of failed predictions.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> Accurate, I have no skin in the game for this conversation, and I am just heckling. 
> 
> And to be clear, I want Tesla to be a successful company. I want them to do well. I've said as much, although probably not as loudly as I have heckled. Furthermore, So far my predictions have been mostly proven wrong, I'm not looking like a particularly credible voice on this topic based on my track record of failed predictions.



No you don't want them to succeed. Don't dress this up. You brigade every Tesla topic with useless shit taking momentum away from any useful discussion. Wonder why the Tesla fan bois haven't posted in a while? I have made a shit ton of money on Tesla and I have donated a shit ton of money to charities because of that. Bring some fundamental analysis into discussions. You are known for that, right?

----------


## killramos

You are more fun when you meme STNK LOL

I havent dug into them since mid 2018, when my assessment was if you took every one of their assumptions at face value and juiced all their operating metrics their then $52B valuation was still pretty stretchy even with flat forward 25% GM (which they had never achieved) and required essentially perpetual growth in the order of 10% a year for any semlence of math to go around. 

I didnt believe their valuation then and I dont believe it now. But in any case I dont stnk, and I certainly dont stnk in companies with Teslas level of irrationality. I can live with leaving money on the table staying out of that game.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

This has nothing to do with "stonking" or not "stonking. This is about conviction in your beliefs, making money, and investing in a company that makes useful shit more affordable for regular people.

----------


## ExtraSlow

I've been told. I will stay out of it as much as I can, although you all know I'm bad at that.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

> I've been told. I will stay out of it as much as I can, although you all know I'm bad at that.



Stay in, be open minded, and bring an opposing thesis if there is disagreement. Be inclusive. Making fun of successful people simply makes you look foolish.

Go look at their FSD beta drivers on youtube. This iteration is pretty good. They will have double the manufacturing capacity (1MM) by the end of next year, and possibly 2MM in 2022. Berlin is almost on pace with Shanghai. Entry into India in a few months.

Betting on a company that makes useful shit, is going to make the world better for our kids, and has a side effect of making me money? I'm all for it. 

Here's John Kerry on the climate narrative.

----------


## max_boost

@The_Rural_Juror
 is my fave Beyonder  :Love:   :Love:  

Free Ginger Beef for you for life at PK PK lol

----------


## max_boost

> We can check back in a year or two. Deal?



Pretty much this lol only thing that matters are the results. You'll notice a bunch of Beyonders have disappeared through the years lol probably can't face the music.

----------


## The_Rural_Juror

From ARK Invest this morning. 




> Sam and Tasha Share Takeaways from Tesla’s Earnings Call
> By Sam Korus & Tasha Keeney | @skorusARK & @TashaARK
> Analysts
> On its earnings call, Tesla highlighted battery cells as the biggest constraint to scaling electric vehicle production. In 2022, Tesla itself plans to produce 100 gigawatt-hours of batteries, enough to supply an incremental 1.3 million vehicles relative to the 500,000 it produced last year. Panasonic, CATL, LG Chem, and other cell manufacturers also plan to scale battery output during the next two years.
> 
> Tesla’s Model 3 production ramp provides some clues to its plans to scale battery production. After troubleshooting the process in one factory, we believe Tesla should be able to “copy and paste” in similar factories around the world much more rapidly than expected.
> 
> During its fourth quarter call, we also learned that only 1-2% of customers in China are opting for Tesla’s Full Self Driving (FSD) package, a “much lower [percentage than in] the rest of world”. At some point, we believe Tesla could offer FSD subscriptions in China, begging the question of its competitive position in a country likely to favor domestic service providers.
> 
> ...

----------


## Buster

What is Tesla doing that isn't easily replicable?

----------


## rage2

> What is Tesla doing that isn't easily replicable?



Raising cash.

----------


## ExtraSlow

> What is Tesla doing that isn't easily replicable?



Succeeding.

----------


## Buster

> Raising cash.



Remember when everyone waned gopro stock? Then they realized it was just off the shelf shit slapped together?

Tesla is just batteries and motors, isn't it?

Fuck I hate tesla.

----------


## roopi

> Fuck I hate tesla.



Please no heckling

----------


## supe

> What is Tesla doing that isn't easily replicable?



Hiring the best of the best.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/06/the-...g%20and%20NASA.

Oh shit... Tesla is number 2

----------


## killramos

Weird. 

I could have sworn I have seen that exact list as “top 10 places that treat their employees the worst” before.

----------


## supe

> Weird. 
> 
> I could have sworn I have seen that exact list as top 10 places that treat their employees the worst before.



Same source that told you TSLA is going to zero?  :ROFL!:

----------


## killramos

> Same source that told you TSLA is going to zero?



Those sources. And apparently anyone who has ever worked there by all the bad press they get about their working conditions. 

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ailed-promises
https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...plant-firings/
https://observer.com/2020/10/elon-mu...-profits-soar/

That whole list is pretty problematic.

You would think for being a sweatshop their cars would get made better.

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

The list is based on a survey of engineering students, asking what companies they are "interested in". It's literally a list of "which company have you heard of or seen at a job fair recently".

----------


## killramos

> The list is based on a survey of engineering students, asking what companies they are "interested in". It's literally a list of "which company have you heard of or seen at a job fair recently".



I imagine you would get a similar type list from finance students who all say they want to be investment bankers when they graduate  :ROFL!: 

Ive heard they all treat their analysts the bestest

----------


## BerserkerCatSplat

> I imagine you would get a similar type list from finance students who all say they want to be investment bankers when they graduate 
> 
> I’ve heard they all treat their analysts the bestest



Yeah it's the equivalent of asking first-graders what they want to be when they grow up. We're going to have a surplus of astronauts and firefighters.

----------


## SSO

> I didnt believe their valuation then and I dont believe it now. But in any case I dont stnk, and I certainly dont stnk in companies with Teslas level of irrationality. I can live with leaving money on the table staying out of that game.



I certainly cant get my head around the valuation either. I went through the analyst call and a lot of the claims are hard to reconcile. For example, in the call Musk states: we do think that we can maintain a growth rate in excess of 50% per year for many years to come. When I looked at Teslas recent CAGRs (compounded annual growth rates) they are, last 5 years  33.8%, most recent 3 years  13.7%, so the actual growth rate in the automotive business has actually slowed. 

Heres the full article: https://karenable.com/ferrari-teslas-2020-results/

----------


## supe

Tesla just landed an order for 100k cars from Hertz. 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...arket-shake-up

Hertz also signed Tom Brady to be their electric car initiative spokes person.
https://twitter.com/Hertz/status/1452607992961064963

Stock is at ATH at around $950

My question is what are the other rental companies going to do?

----------


## ExtraSlow

I think we see initiatives like this in the USA long before they are widespread in Canada. Probably will become "a thing" most places, although my contact at Calgary's largest rental fleet says his company has no plans for near-term. 
Fascinated to see what retail rental pricing looks like compared to ICE vehicles from rental fleets.

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## taemo

was wondering why TSLA was up pre-market before these were announced.

will be interesting to see what other rentals will do, don't think they have any other alternatives other than also order some TSLAs

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## ercchry

> I think we see initiatives like this in the USA long before they are widespread in Canada. Probably will become "a thing" most places, although my contact at Calgary's largest rental fleet says his company has no plans for near-term. 
> Fascinated to see what retail rental pricing looks like compared to ICE vehicles from rental fleets.



I’m fascinated to see how many are out of electricity on the side of the road cause “this car can do 500mi and I only did 350mi” smrt renters and how the companies are going to deal with retrieving their cars

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## ExtraSlow

> I’m fascinated to see how many are out of electricity on the side of the road cause “this car can do 500mi and I only did 350mi” smrt renters and how the companies are going to deal with retrieving their cars



This is also a fascinating prosepct!

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## Xtrema

> I think we see initiatives like this in the USA long before they are widespread in Canada. Probably will become "a thing" most places, although my contact at Calgary's largest rental fleet says his company has no plans for near-term. 
> Fascinated to see what retail rental pricing looks like compared to ICE vehicles from rental fleets.



Would assume will be in line of other vehicles in the $50-$60k range and probably add a energy surcharge/handling fee if charged at Supercharger.




> will be interesting to see what other rentals will do, don't think they have any other alternatives other than also order some TSLAs




EA/EC is a total shit show. Supercharger is the only way to go in simplicity. The question is, will they need to do a explainer/training to every renter before letting them off the lot?

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## killramos

How much will hertz charge you if you return it below 100% charged?

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## bjstare

> I’m fascinated to see how many are out of electricity on the side of the road cause “this car can do 500mi and I only did 350mi” smrt renters and how the companies are going to deal with retrieving their cars



This is the first thing I thought of too. Plus hotels will have to increase charging infrastructure at an accelerated pace, etc etc. I'm sure people smarter than me have put a lot of brain power into this, but it seems like it has too much risk to be the seamless experience people will expect.

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## benyl

> This is the first thing I thought of too. Plus hotels will have to increase charging infrastructure at an accelerated pace, etc etc. I'm sure people smarter than me have put a lot of brain power into this, but it seems like it has too much risk to be the seamless experience people will expect.



It will be a niche rental. Probably for places that have massive supercharger infrastructure (California) already. Target market will likely be existing Tesla owners.

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## killramos

> It will be a niche rental. Probably for places that have massive supercharger infrastructure (California) already. Target market will likely be existing Tesla owners.



Gonna be a pricey rental considering what it costs to rent a “luxury” 320i lol

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## flipstah

> Would assume will be in line of other vehicles in the $50-$60k range and probably add a energy surcharge/handling fee if charged at Supercharger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EA/EC is a total shit show. Supercharger is the only way to go in simplicity. The question is, will they need to do a explainer/training to every renter before letting them off the lot?



You'll probably need to teach them how to use the Supercharger, especially if they've never seen one. Maybe there's a preset where if the car detects x range, it automatically maps the car to the nearest charging station within range?

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## supe

Elon tweeted that any existing Tesla owners will have their profile follow them so hop in the rental and everything gets set back to your settings, pretty neat.

Here is another Hertz ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDUSgOzwY7E

TSLA finished the day up over 12% and the stock at $1024, I agree with Brady, Lets GO

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## Xtrema

> You'll probably need to teach them how to use the Supercharger, especially if they've never seen one. Maybe there's a preset where if the car detects x range, it automatically maps the car to the nearest charging station within range?



I bet if you don't have a Tesla profile, you have to built one with CC info.

After that it's pretty simple, enter destination of every place that you go and it'll tell you if you need to drop by a Supercharger.

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## benyl

> Elon tweeted that any existing Tesla owners will have their profile follow them so hop in the rental and everything gets set back to your settings, pretty neat.



Probably coming in "2 weeks" lol.

I'd be happy if my presets would travel with my phone between cars I own, let alone a rental.

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## benyl



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## ExtraSlow

Now if there's an industry ripe for disruption it's the USA college system. I support this.

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## benyl

> Now if there's an industry ripe for disruption it's the USA college system. I support this.

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## ExtraSlow

I can't remember, is this the thread about the cars, the stock, or the one where we make fun of elon? Those nuances also go over my head.

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## 90_Shelby

T.i.t.s.

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## benyl

> I can't remember, is this the thread about the cars, the stock, or the one where we make fun of elon? Those nuances also go over my head.



This is the stock / Elon one. The other thread is just about the cars.

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## JRSC00LUDE

> T.i.t.s.



Every thread is ultimately about this.

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## dirtsniffer

Tesla dropping prices by up to 20%. Guess they are trying to keep up with the share price.

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## Xtrema

> Tesla dropping prices by up to 20%. Guess they are trying to keep up with the share price.



Price cut global. New Model Y price make it qualify for US $7500 rebate and undercut rival like Mach-E by like $18K USD.

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## suntan

D-d-d-d-oes that mean my Tesla is worth less?

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## dirtsniffer

My boss gave me a 20% payout, but he'll let me work 60 hours a week to make up for it! I should be excited right?

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